Kendall Glauber from Lonely Whale and the NextWave Plastics Consortium went from summers in Southern California to the non-profit world, keeping plastic waste from entering the ocean. In this episode, we learn how her efforts through Lonely Whale are helping to drive recycling systems change and how NextWave’s member companies are using ocean-bound plastics to create new goods. We discover the impact of ocean-bound plastics and explore how informal workers in developing countries are a critical part of the system, and why waste is being mismanaged. And learn how multinational corporations and small businesses can help prevent plastics from polluting our oceans and how the circular economy supports social change. 

If you want to learn more about Nextwave, the member companies and how they are making waves by choosing ocean-bound plastics visit www.nextwaveplastics.org. You can follow along with Nextwave on its mission to keep plastic in the economy and out of the ocean on twitter at nxtwaveplastics. Want to support Lonelywhale as a business? 1% for the planet members, you can find them listed as a non-profit, and they are always looking for new brands to join Nextwave’s consortium. 

Links from this episode

• NextWave Plastics

• Lonely Whale

• Forbes: The People Who Collect Most Ocean-Bound Plastic For Recycling Are Getting A Hand Up From A Group Of Companies And Brands

• Marine pollution. Plastic waste inputs from land into the ocean

• UN ocean treaty is ‘once in a lifetime’ chance to protect the high seas

Episode Transcript

[00:02:22] Jennifer Myers Chua: Across the world, 20 million waste pickers, salvage, reusable, or recyclable materials, and are responsible for 60% of the world’s recycling. These people, considered informal workers are collecting ocean bound, plastics that would otherwise end up in the ocean. And this waste is considered mismanaged. There’s no formal waste management system in place in these developing countries. And for discarded plastic to be considered ocean bound, it’s found within 50 kilometers of the coast. Close enough to be washed into the ocean with the next storm.

And the unfortunate reality is that the ocean is already filled with plastic. It’s nearly impossible to collect and damaging. 8 million, tons of plastic is entering the ocean each year. The equivalent of one garbage truck, full of plastic being dumped in the ocean every minute. And the plastic pollution crisis has only accelerated and continues to intensify around the world. Today’s guest Kendell Glauber works at Lonely Whale. A nonprofit on a mission to keep plastic waste from entering the ocean. She’s the director of next wave plastics, a consortium of companies supported by Lonely Whale who are working to keep plastic in the economy and out of the ocean. integrating recycled ocean bound plastic into their products and to help support other businesses in doing the same and drive systemic change

[00:03:43] Kendall Glauber: I was tracking the progress of NextWave from the beginning because I had a existing relationship with Dune Ives, the CEO of Lonely Whale, who has been a mentor of mine throughout my career. It was fairly serendipitous because my background professionally was In consulting, but primarily focused on sustainability. I have a masters of environmental management. And so I had done a lot of work around behavior change, particularly when it comes to sustainability, things like energy efficiency, climate change, and how people can move through the process of change to actually help to benefit the environment, change their behavior, things like that.

When I was growing up, I grew up in Southern California and spent every day of every summer at the beach. My summer camp was called junior guards and it was on the beach. And I was my happiest when I was swimming in the ocean. But it was in long beach, California, which is the port of long beach and the port of Los Angeles. Connected to each other. And also the Los Angeles river flows out right around that area. And so I was having the time of my life swimming in the waves, but also like couldn’t help but notice how much plastic there was in the ocean. Every summer, we would have red tides, which were algal blooms in the water.

There’d be dead birds or dead fish on the beach. So even from like a pretty early age, I had this really clear understanding of the connection between urban systems and the city that I lived in and the environment and, and the impacts to the environment, because I knew I’d been in other places where even maybe a few miles down the coast, I could see that the beaches were cleaner. I could see that, that they didn’t have the same issues with plastic pollution. It was less intense because it wasn’t as close to some of these like urban outlets. And so I understood that really, there was this large impact, but it wasn’t any one person fault. Like it wasn’t any one person who doing it.

It was a lot of people doing a lot of individually, potentially harmless things that then all kind of fed up into this broader systemic problem. That I think actually drove a lot of my curiosity throughout my career in terms of solving systemic problems and figuring out like how do we think about this, how do we come at this from a way where we can actually change what’s happening at a larger scale to meet these goals that help protect our environment as well, but that also don’t make it so that we can’t live our lives and have our businesses and make money from the things that we’ve invented and that people feel really passionate about. And I truly believe that there’s a balance there. And so I think that kind of bringing together those pieces really positions me well to someone that can help do something like convene a consortium that helps position these conversations.

And I think that what’s really great for them, the business people and the companies who are trying to figure out like, okay, how do I make this work from a business perspective is, being a part of something like a consortium or having, key advisors that are helping to guide the work that aren’t just your like investors or your peers in the business that have some more of a, especially if you are working into sustainability and environmental impact or any kind of impact social impact, all the things like there are incredible experts that are doing this work that have the scientific or Process understanding of what the ideal might be. And then you can understand as a business owner, how your business can then help support those goals, whether then explicitly working against them.

I have this opportunity and it could likely be a business differentiator, like my sustainability or my social responsibility, or, the way that I’m investing in new supply streams and innovative materials. This is something that can differentiate me as a business. And at this point, consumers are not putting up with any greenwashing. Like there is, they’re very invested in wanting to know the truth. And so having that transparency, having that knowledge like seeking out those inputs, is something that’s, that’s really interesting.

[00:08:28] Jennifer Myers Chua: When we go back to your junior guard days and you’re playing in the ocean. Do you remember any other moments where you became interested in sustainability? Is there anything that stands out in your mind of like this happened in your life and it led you on this path?

[00:08:43] Kendall Glauber: There’s definitely a few, I think. It’s everything from when I was in college, I was at an event and there was a booth from a local environmental group and they had these jars full of water with these things in them. And they looked just like jellyfish. Like it was, it was almost like a cartoon version of a jellyfish. And I was like, this is weird. And I talked to the people there and they were like, this is what happens when balloons get released and go up into the atmosphere and they expand and then pop and they. Part of it gets shredded, but it stays connected at the part where the knot is. And then when it ends up in the water and it’s bobbing, it looks just like sea life. And that broke my heart. And that I think was actually the moment that took me from the kid being like playing in the ocean, thinking about that, this stuff shouldn’t be here to, oh my gosh. There’s something that I need to do about this. so then I think that, that was a huge moment for me, in terms of just recognizing. How the unintended consequences of the things that we don’t think about and how something like a huge celebration that is, commemorated with a balloon release is something that’s actually really creating so much more harm than good.

And understanding that we’re all connected. I think for me, that was a big piece of it. Connection for me has been a big key value in my life in terms of my connection to my family and my friends and my community and the places where I’ve felt the happiest and most fulfilled have been the places where I’ve had that deep sense of connection and community.

And so I think that brings me back to the idea of How I was talking about systems, thinking like, that sounds like such a buzzword, but really it’s about like how we’re all connected. Like it’s all part of this broader system and everything’s impacting each other. And so like, how can we be more intentional about understanding the impacts that our systems are currently having and ways that we can continue to improve them? Through NextWave. I get the opportunity to do that by helping to continue to grow and deepen this community of brands that have a desire to do good, and help them figure out the way forward together and the way that they’re connected rather than trying to all scrape by and figure it out on their own.

Ocean bound, plastic is really the plastic that is most vulnerable to ending up in the ocean. As many of us know, there’s a bit of an issue with the plastic that we use on land, ending up in the environment, and then in the ocean affecting Marine ecosystems and Marine animals. That plastic is continuing to enter the ocean on a regular basis. In fact, there’s about 12 million metric, tons of plastic that are entering the ocean every single year, that is equivalent to about one and a half garbage trucks being dumped into the ocean every minute. All the time it’s just constantly happening and this is a huge problem.

And so there’s been this development of an industry around how do we stop the flow of this plastic into the ocean before it gets there by setting up systems that help to capture this plastic, in the places where it’s most vulnerable to being in the environment. that gets us to ocean bound plastic. So ocean plastic is defined based on some scientific research out of the university of Georgia. It’s defined as plastic that’s collected within 50 kilometers of a coastline, generally in areas with little or absolutely no waste management. So there’s no truck coming down the street to pick up their waste on a weekly basis. They don’t really have any other recourse. Like this is people in neighborhoods, maybe businesses, companies in places in the world where no one is coming to pick up the trash.

So next wave plastics is a consortium of multinational brands who are all invested in helping to change the trajectory on ocean plastic pollution by sourcing this material, demonstrating that it has commercial value and should be collected and recycled, and that they’re investing the time and energy into using that as new material in their products that they’re putting out on the market. And so our consortium includes a number of brands that you’re probably familiar with. It includes Dell technologies, HP Inc, Herman Miller, human scale, who are more in like interior design and office furniture, Ikea, interface that makes carpeting, Trek bicycles. As well as Shinola, a lifestyle goods company, variative, which makes a number of different packaging applications. CPI card group makes credit cards and soul guard is a startup that makes backpacks and travel goods and other lifestyle goods as well. So just even listening to that list, you can hear that it’s a whole array of different types of products, different industries. There’s really not a limit to what you can do with recycled plastic content, because you can put it into all the things that we make out of plastic.

And so the idea here is this commitment to come together as a consortium to share information so that no one of these companies has to figure this out on their own. They all recognize that this is an issue. They have the ability to help provide at least some level of a solution and so in doing that Each within their own product development, as well as then collaborating together to be successful in doing it, then they’re able to create much more impact and, and help to really turn off the tap on plastic pollution.

[00:15:11] Jennifer Myers Chua: And I mean, these are really household brands. Like I’m talking to you right now, sitting in a Herman Miller chair at an Ikea desk using a Dell monitor. It’s interesting that these brands would want to get involved in this. I’m wondering. How did they come together? What is the benefit for them of joining? why would these brands commit to this? Other than that shared knowledge?

[00:15:31] Kendall Glauber: Yeah, that’s a great question. The consortium itself was founded in 2017, but the conversations really started in 2016, between lonely whale and Dell technologies. And there was this idea that Dell really wanted to be using ocean bound, plastic as a material. Products and packaging. But that they could maybe have an impact on a few beaches and Indonesia. But that, that wasn’t necessarily going to reach the scale of the problem. And so there was this acknowledgement from the beginning that this wasn’t something that they could do on their own, that it was something that they need that other brands and other companies needed to join in on the fight.

But it isn’t easy. I mean, the whole reason that plastic in these areas is ending up in the environment and in the ocean is because the systems there are broken. We have a linear system that pumps just immense amounts of plastic packaging and goods to places all over the world. But there’s no real feasible way for it to get back and to be disposed of properly or reused. Ideally. And because of that broken system, it means that the systems aren’t necessarily set up to incentivize just turning the ship around and getting the plastic back to where it can be used again. So the idea of setting up Ocean bound plastic supply chains really takes an additional layer of investment and additional layer of knowledge around how to work with recycled material, particularly material that may have been exposed to the environment, maybe more degraded or dirty, maybe being collected and recycled at facilities that aren’t as advanced as some of the recycling facilities that are processing the stuff that comes out of our homes in the U S and Canada. There’s just more to it. And there’s fewer incentives that are just making this super cost-effective, really quick, easy to plug and play. But that doesn’t make it less worthwhile to do. In fact, I think it makes it more worthwhile to do, because it means that the products that these companies are then producing are not only just cool products.

They’re not only made with sustainable materials, but they’re also made with sustainable materials that are having incredible impact in places that are left behind by the existing, like systemic structures that exist across the globe. That is not the fault of the individual people in Indonesia. It’s this whole large system.

So basically the whole point then of joining and being a part of this larger group is really that these companies are breaking down barriers for each other in terms of recommending one of the biggest parts of this is that we’re, developing a network of a global network of ocean bound plastics suppliers. And so the idea there is that they’re being able to understand where there are. Recyclers and suppliers of material that actually have good potential to deliver a product that they can turn into something that’s useful. So a lot of it is understanding who’s out there. What’s the network who’s doing this work, where are the needs? As well as connecting to the experts, whether those are the scientific experts that are figure, understanding the problem. Or the implementation experts who understand how to go in on the ground and set up a system that is socially responsible, but also, you know, environmentally beneficial in, in places with limited waste management and more. There’s the financial side. There’s a lot of that. So a lot of it is bringing all the right people together into the space and breaking down those barriers to success with working with Ocean bound plastics. Now the consortium has been around for four years and these companies are in many cases, the leaders who have charted this course.

And so we’re now turning that around and working more to develop thought leadership and, helping to guide others in navigating this space as well. We’re adding that credibility and that knowledge and kind of paying it forward as well, in terms of NextWave and our member companies contributing to additional thought leadership that grows the pie in terms of the ability to actually continue to expand and scale this industry around ocean plastic recycling.

[00:20:02] Jennifer Myers Chua: So these member companies, is there a collective goal in terms of impact?

[00:20:07] Kendall: Absolutely. In 2018, we set out with our eyes on the prize of hitting 25,000 metric, tons of Ocean bound plastic from the ocean by the end of 2025, that is equivalent to 1.2 billion single use plastic water bottles. So Yeah the scale is big. We’re aiming for a large amount for these companies to actually use. In the grand scheme of things. It is a drop in the bucket, but the idea is really. Trying to be the catalyst for then these greater systems that can kind of be up and running and continue to grow and grow and grow from there.

[00:20:46] Jennifer Myers Chua: I just had a thought, which is outside of creating things with ocean bound plastics, the NextWave member companies, are they working in other ways to reduce their use of plastic? I’m just wondering if that’s in their consciousness as well.

[00:21:00] Kendall Glauber: It’s one thing to be replacing the plastic with recycled content, but it’s another thing to be thinking about how we reduce that overall impact together in the first place. So as part of signing up for membership, each of the member companies agrees to reduce their overall use of plastic by making an assessment. What their current footprint is and then ways to reduce that overall. And many of them have been doing this even before being next wave plastics members, or are continuing to deepen their commitment to that. We don’t have a specific goal that’s based on that, but helping the member companies share that information so that they can also learn from each other, similarly, in this same forum where they’re sharing information and learning from each other about ocean bound plastic. They’re also doing that about ways to reduce their plastic overall

one great example, Trek bike ran a pilot to reduce the amount of plastic that was in the packaging for their bicycles. That goes to a bicycle store where they’d assemble the bike and then you’d purchase the bike. But it has to get there first. And there’s a lot of components that need to be properly protected in order to get from their manufacturing site, their warehouse, and then to that store. And so, they did a really comprehensive look at how do we try and get rid of every single piece of plastic in this thing that we can. And I think that they were successful down to maybe a couples, zip ties, and they were even looking into some alternative solutions and, and they’ve even really heard from many of their partners in the actual stores saying that the amount of plastic that they’re throwing away has been reduced as a result of that. And so they ran the pilot with one bike model, but it was so successful that they’re expanding that across a number of their other, bicycle models as well.

These are like wonderful companies that are doing good work. And also the delay on bicycles during the pandemic with the supply chain challenges. It’s been very real. I think what’s really a Testament to the commitment of some of these companies, is that even with the level of challenges that they’re facing in their supply chains with the pandemic and, global shipping issues, in the cost of goods going up, is that they’ve continued to be committed to their ocean bound plastic sources, the relationships that they’ve developed with suppliers and the products that they’re putting out there. We’ve continued to grow, the amount of plastic that the member companies are diverting year over year. Basically doubling each year. And that hasn’t slowed down. It’s actually accelerated since, since the pandemic. So it’s really great to see the level of commitment coming from these number companies.

[00:23:58] Jennifer Myers Chua: Do you have any other insight into the ways that we either humans or industry or small business? Just, we collectively use plastics? and how it. Existing use of plastics, maybe less than ideal.

[00:24:12] Kendall Glauber: The biggest thing is it’s not that plastic itself is bad. It’s an inert material or it’s a material out there that, serves a purpose. And so there’s many places where absolutely it makes sense to have plastic. It helps us create a lot of things that we maybe wouldn’t have invented. Otherwise it helps us ship a number of things. Further, the safer, lighter. And so there’s a lot of reasons that it makes sense to, to have plastic, to continue to use plastic. It’s more about why we’re using it. And then really what the plan is at the end of the day for what to do with it. And the biggest problem there is single use plastic hands down, across the globe. That is a problem is the single use plastic that is used once and then it never degrades. It doesn’t go away. And so, it ends up, even if it’s in a landfill, it’s taking up a ton of space in a landfill for the fact that someone was using it for a moment. And so the biggest issue. It’s really then how do we reduce the plastic that isn’t helpful.

That is more detrimental than it is useful. And like remove that from the economy in many ways, and then be able to really focus on how to be using plastic in a way that is more responsible. So. plastic packaging or reducing the use of things like the stuff you hear, people harping on all the time, plastic bags, plastic straws, plastic utensils. For example, utensils can’t be recycled. They can’t be properly captured in a municipal recycling facility and recycled into something new, uh, Exist forever and they’re just trash. And so it’s rethinking those things and how can we be creating alternatives? And then revisiting the need for single use plastic. In the meantime, it’s also about creating more robust systems for capturing and recycling the plastic. That is out there and designing products to be recyclable so that they can be captured, they can be recycled. And they then can actually be part of a more holistic system that keeps the phrase that we use all the time at next wave keeps that plastic in the economy and out of the ocean.

[00:26:52] Jennifer Myers Chua: So it should the onus beyond the brands then, or the governments that are developing these recycling systems. What do you think about that?

[00:27:00] Kendall Glauber: Absolutely. I think that the onus should definitely be on brands in many cases, that there should be a deeper level of accountability around the plastic that is being sent out, what it looks like, whether it’s recyclable and then what happens to it. It’s at its end of life.

There are many policies across the globe. We’re kind of doing the hashing out what this will look like around extended producer responsibility and having it be that the brands are more responsible for that material that they’re putting out there. But that can’t be the only thing. It’s easy to point the fingers at the big mean corporations and say, you fix the problem. There needs to be more of the system. So absolutely the governments need to be engaged in terms of creating good policy around plastic and good systems and, everything from the municipal level up to the, federal government and then consumers need to be engaged as well and take responsibility for their trash. Understand how to dispose of what they do have or return it to wherever it needs to go to get into the proper return stream at some point. So there is a role to play. I think that historically that’s been pointed towards consumers and we need to shift this to a more brand government centric and then holistic system.

So that. It’s something where everyone’s bearing some responsibility for making sure that this happens. And the thing that’s most promising about that is that the UN just released a mandate for creating a treaty on plastic and how we treat plastics as a global economy. And so I think there’s a lot of promise there in that mandate in terms of really driving for how we look at plastics and its full life cycle, not just what happens at the end of its life, once it’s been used, but really from design through use and into reuse. There’s going to be a lot of changes over the next few years in terms of how. I handled that as a like globe, and also at the state level. So lots of that? is coming so positive developments there.

[00:29:20] Jennifer Myers Chua: And someone with a design background, I am just completely enamored with these innovative ways that some of these companies are using ocean bound plastics. Anytime I see this, I just, I love to see what they’re creating. Do you have any examples that you can share from maybe businesses with the next wave, maybe without the have like use cases for products they’re creating with these plastics.

[00:29:45] Kendall Glauber: The member companies have been working on their products for anywhere from two to six or seven years at this point. More than 330 products on the market that are made with ocean bound plastic, just from these 12 companies. And so many of the products that I think are some really great examples are from HP. They really invested in this inspiring collection and recycling operation in Haiti where there is almost no waste management systems and really started. Integrating recycled bottles into ink cartridges, which is a core part of their business. It’s not like something that’s off on the side. That was like a one-off thing. They really went and integrated this into something that is a core element of their business. But they’ve really taken that commitment deeper and are innovating with this material to ensure that it can perform in a technology application.

And they’ve been able to integrate ocean bound plastic, into components that are in a huge number of their laptops, their monitors and other technology as well. So I think that that’s a really great example. I think some of the iconic ones, even that you mentioned earlier, you said you’re sitting in a Herman Miller chair, Herman Miller, just in 2021, they launched a suite of products that are made with ocean bound plastic, most iconically the Aeron chair just last year they launched these chairs and they’re in the process of rolling them out and soon all Aeron chairs will be released with Ocean bound plastic as the standard, this iconic piece within their product line. They were really looking at how do we really make an impact in something that, will make a difference. And that will really help tell this story to our customers as well.

One other thing that we haven’t talked about but that I think is really interesting is that fishing nets are also a big component of this conversation. So a lot of the plastic that we think about is the single use plastic, the water bottles, the baggies. But fishing nets are the most dangerous. type of Marine plastic pollution. And so a number of our member companies have been working with reclaimed fishing, net material in their products as well. Human scale really stands out in terms of that. They were actually the first to launch an office chair made with ocean bound plastic, they have two chairs currently, and are working to develop more products made with recycled fishing nets. And the idea is that there’s about two pounds of recycled fishing nets in each of these chairs, but these chairs are designed to last for 50 years. It’s trash. This was like going in the ocean and now it’s locked up in this chair will be around for the next 50 years at least. And so the idea really is there’s lots of different ways to go about this. There’s lots of ways to get this into packaging and other things, but what NextWave member companies have really been able to demonstrate is that it can also go into these really premium products. Whether it’s a Shinola watch or Solgaard backpack, or interface, carpeting, there’s all these places that it can go that are really designed to be these iconic products that you have around you in your life and that you live with that are making the most of, what, otherwise just would have been pollution.

[00:33:26] Jennifer Myers Chua: In terms of social impacts, like how are these communities all around the world that are, ocean front communities, how are they getting involved? And what you’re doing with NextWave… how is this impacting them?

[00:33:39] Kendall Glauber: That is a huge component of the work that we do working in the environmental space and in climate change. I think one of the things that I’ve really realized is that. That a lot of this stuff is really about people. And I think that the social component of this cannot be extricated from the environmental component. The people who are living in communities, where they don’t have waste management or oftentimes living in trash. And so what’s great about these, this work is that. In many cases. The ocean bound plastic supply chains are relying on networks of informal workers who are going out collecting plastic that’s recyclable. And selling that material to an aggregator or a recycler who we’ll sell that material on, into an ocean bound plastic supply stream, but they’re relying on that income of collecting plastic for their livelihood. What’s incredible is that waste pickers across the globe in 2016, it was estimated that they were responsible for 60% of global recycling. So at a global scale, this is our most successful recycling system. These people that are living in poverty. Oftentimes they’re part of marginalized groups, but are carrying our recycling system on their back and are the heroes of protecting the ocean from plastic. So one of the things that we focus on at NextWave is really making sure that as ocean bound plastic supply chains are being developed, the social component is absolutely central to the work that is being done. And that we’re ensuring that those workers are receiving fair pay, that they are also receiving benefits like health benefits and other support systems that can help them have better livelihoods, be able to educate their children. All of that, have it be so that their children can go and be in school and don’t have to work.

 I think some standout examples are HPS work with their partners first mile and work in Haiti where they’ve provided work over a thousand workers with jobs and have really helped to create a support system in Haiti for these workers. That then has transcended even things like the earthquake that happened there recently, they were able to help provide resources directly to many of the workers in their system to actually ensure that they were able to get whatever support they could provide. Dell technologies is doing incredible work in Indonesia and supporting communities there. And all of this within NextWave coming together to compare notes on what has been successful, what the needs are and how to ensure that social responsibility goes beyond just the factory level and down into those networks of informal workers.

One of the things that we did as a consortium was created a working group specifically on this issue. And what came out of that was a framework for what a socially responsible ocean bound plastics, supply chain looks like and it really runs through how to understand what the issues in a supply chain and then really how to lay the groundwork and the foundation for supporting a more socially responsible program and system, so that we’re really helping to articulate what are the actual challenges that are out there. And then how do you do it in a way that doesn’t just replace the systems that exist? It doesn’t just come in and say, okay, we’re going to set up our, what a, whatever a Western waste management system looks like, but really works to center the workers that are there doing this work already. And helping to improve their lives, helping to improve the systems, helping to bring more resources so that they can do that better. And that that’s can be beneficial to those that workforce and to those communities in these areas.

[00:37:53] Jennifer Myers Chua: And if you own a business and you want to create impact. Are there opportunities for businesses outside of the NextWave members to become members or interact with you in some way or benefit from your learnings even.

[00:38:07] Kendall Glauber: Absolutely. So we are constantly walking, welcoming new members to come and join this work. Any company who is interested in sourcing Ocean bound plastic. Getting it into products. Whether you are interested in trying to figure it out, and don’t really know where to get started or maybe. There may be some who are further down the line and have already been testing material or developed products, but want to be a part of a group that can help to continue to scale what they’re doing or maybe you’ve come up across specific roadblock that you need to work through, and it might be helpful to have some folks who can help you kind of sort through the challenges that you might be facing to figure out a way through, to be successful with using this material. That’s what we’re here for. We’re looking to grow and to scale this and to expand the impact that we’re able to have to get. And I would say though, that there are a number of resources that are coming out of NextWave. If you maybe aren’t ready to make the leap for membership. things like the framework for social responsibility are really useful tools for navigating some of the ambiguity of this space.

One thing that we have coming out this year is a series of case studies that we’re calling our changemaker series and that’s going to come out in april and may and June of this year, it’ll be a running series with one coming out every week. That’ll focus on a particular topic where NextWave member companies have had key learnings or found particular success or work through a particular challenge. And so just keeping an eye out for those and, taking a look at what information might be most useful for you there? I’m always happy to talk to companies who are trying to figure out how, how do we have better impact is Ocean bound plastic, the right thing for us. And if it is where do we go next? And I’d love to help on that.

[00:40:14] Jennifer Myers Chua: So if I’m a small business owner and I’m creating a product you think there’s an opportunity for me to access ocean bound plastic waste, or would this be an option as this community grows? Like what can a small business owner do in terms of creating this impact in this way?

[00:40:31] Kendall Glauber: Yeah, it’s a great question. And there’s a lot of really incredible small companies that I’ve talked to, who really are invested in being able to do that. I think the biggest challenge is that there is a issue of scale and needing to have a certain level of scale that you’re operating at for it. Then to make economic sense to. Be able to buy the material. And also there’s the challenge sometimes of finding manufacturers who can make a product that you might want to make for your business, that know how to work with ocean bound plastic, or have that in their wheelhouse. There are definitely some that can work at that smaller scale. But I think that it’s going to be the best fit for kind of small to mid-sized businesses who are able to start with kind of a larger investment or that have existing products and are already operating at scale and then want to integrate ocean bound plastic into some existing product lines.

 If you’re really starting from something new it can be challenging, but it isn’t impossible. It really is about finding the right partners. And so I think that in terms of finding the right suppliers out there who might be able to connect you up and provide the right information. There’s some that I would maybe point you in the direction of, and I’m happy to be a resource for anyone who’s interested in that. As well as really just seeking out information from others in the space who have done this, finding out who they’re working with and then piecing it together from there. The one thing I would say is. Don’t be afraid of making mistakes or potentially getting push back. As I said, this is about creating a system where systems don’t exist. So it isn’t as plug and play as it might be nice to have it be. But that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible and that it doesn’t mean that it’s not worthwhile. Keep seeking information, seeking champions who do know this space and continuing to push forward to try and see what you can do.

After your work with ocean experts and Lonely Whale. And now all of these heads of businesses that are working with plastics. I can only imagine that you have a lot of insight into how we as a society are changing how we interact with plastics. I’m just wondering if this has made you more hopeful for our future.

A thousand percent. So much more hopeful for what we can create. I am also scared. I will say that there’s a lot of things that can, and absolutely will go wrong in terms of creating a more sustainable future, where we use materials and natural resources more wisely. Where we treat our natural systems with respect and dignity, and. I can see it. And I think what’s sometimes really difficult is knowing maybe an end destination that feels like this utopia and looking at where we are now, which is that plastic producing is, is plastic. Production is increasing and plastic pollution is increasing and all of that. It’s those data day shifts the little incremental, tiny things that people are doing every day, um, that are moving us more towards that utopian future. And that’s a lot of what we work towards at lonely whale as a organization. But really what I see come to life through NextWave is , I’m not talking to Dell technologies. Like I’m talking to this specific individual who is instigating change in this organization and helping to figure out ways to really articulate why it makes sense for a huge company like Dell to invest in this project to help communities in Indonesia who have too much plastic waste. And the fact that they’ve been able to go from this nugget of an idea to launching products out in the world, that they’re able to tell this story to their customers. is an upswell.

That’s something that’s growing and that can continue to grow. And so I think that in walking through that, like sometimes slow, excruciating process of change. That doesn’t seem like it’s going anywhere. I see that it’s going somewhere and I can understand that, like that is how change happens. It doesn’t happen in like this huge. Sweeping change. It may happen sometimes in leaps and bounds, but a lot of it is about that, like that preparation work and the individuals who are committed to not being afraid to be like, I see this opportunity. Let’s go get it.

[00:45:40] Jennifer Myers Chua: If you want to learn more about NextWave, the member companies and how they’re making waves by choosing ocean bound plastics, visit https://www.nextwaveplastics.org/. You can follow along with NextWave on their mission to keep plastic in the economy and out of the ocean on Twitter at next waves, plastics without the first E. Want to support lonely whale as a business. 1% for the planet members, you can find them listed as a nonprofit, and they’re always looking for new brands to join NextWave’s consortium.

Kate Pepler from the Tare Shop was feeling overwhelmed with the doom and gloom narrative of our earth’s health and decided to do something about it. In this episode, we learn how Kate’s lifelong relationship with the water and a move to a coastal town influenced how she sees the world. We discover how Kate’s passions including sailing and environmental education and community building led her to entrepreneurship, we chat about why Kate decided to open a package-free store and cafe,  how shopping habits are shifting, why reducing plastic pollution is so important to her, how we can influence the world around us by choosing to support and shop mindfully, and how the interest in reducing waste, and a strong community focus had led to the Tare Shops success.

If you want to learn more about Kate, package free living and shop her carefully curated collection of low waste goods, visit thetareshop.com. Looking to learn more about zero-waste? And the steps you can take to reduce plastic in your life? There are a lot of tips and resources in Kate’s blog. If you want to follow along with Kate on her mission to make package-free living accessible on Instagram at @thetareshop

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:29] Jennifer: It’s summer in Bedford, Nova Scotia, and Kate Peppler is teaching sailing as she has been for the last few summers. Having grown up with a love for water and the outdoors. Kate felt like she was in her element and it looked like her future would include spending summers on Canada’s east coast teaching and then sailing south for the winters. But after graduating from university with a degree in sustainability, environmental science and Marine biology. Kate was feeling depressed and overwhelmed by the state of the world.

[00:04:03] Kate: It felt like I spent five years studying all the ways that we just destroying the planet without much like positive focus or here’s what has been done. Here’s what is happening. So after graduating, I started a website called our positive planet, which was really just for like my mental health. The whole purpose behind it was to share environmental success stories to inspire action. When I just get bombarded with the doom and gloom, I kind of just want to bury my head in the sand and ignore it all, or turn on Netflix and not take anything else new in But when I read about other folks doing inspiring things, that’s what really inspires me. So by sharing positive environmental success stories, I was trying to help like drag myself out of that doom and gloom slump. So I, through that, I started reading about these zero waste stores popping up all over and kind of got inspired to try to reduce my own waste.

[00:04:53] Jennifer: And with that, Kate began to look at ways to reduce her own waste, beginning to feel excited about the opportunity to create change. In Halifax where she lived, she was struggling to do so. There was no retail outlet that made plastic free living easy or accessible. And in the off season from sailing, Kate would run around to a variety of shops for a variety of things, without packaging realizing that this isn’t realistic for most people with full-time jobs or families to care for. And through setting some personal challenges for herself when it came to tracking and reducing waste. And blogging about her environmental wins and challenges, Kate began to realize that there was a gap to be filled in her community. And she set out to create a one-stop shop for bulk, grocery and personal care, all package free. And in the years, since The Tare Shop has opened. They’ve expanded, created a strong community following and Kate has continued teaching. Something she loves to do. Although now she teaches individuals, schools, and companies, how to make more sustainable choices.

[00:06:00] Kate: I grew up on Toronto island, which is a small community. There’s about 250 people who live there. It’s a largely car-free community, just a 10 minute ferry ride from downtown Toronto. So I grew up spending a lot of time in nature. The school goes up to grade six on the island, and then you have to go into the city. Until my last year, I think there was no playground or play structures. It was like a field and trees and we played outside. We built forts. We toboggan down a hill.

I grew up sailing, doing canoe trips and loved swimming. I live like a couple of minutes from the beach on the island. And I remember as a kid, seeing a ton of garbage on the beaches always and not really piecing together why that might be or where it comes from. I remember there’s always like the plastic tampon applicators. Oh, there’s like a lot of women on boats with periods. Cause this is like on the water that came from the water. Not understanding that big disconnect that garbage in the water largely comes from land, not from boats. So I think I, yeah, I’ve always been loved being outside and being in nature. And I think we can’t even say any more that we need to protect the environment for future generations. We need to protect it for our generation. Like we are directly seeing impacts of climate change and pasta pollution today. Like this isn’t a future problem. It’s a definitely a future problem, but it’s also a very much a right now problem.

[00:07:28] Jennifer: Do you think that growing up on an island, even though, like you said, you’re only 10 minutes away from downtown Toronto. but you think that really I’m trying to think of what the difference would be between someone who has the opportunity to grow up climbing trees and going out and swimming within a two minute walk from someone that lives in like an urban center. I’m wondering if you think that was an influence on your life.

[00:07:49] Kate: I definitely think so, but also like everybody’s different. I might have friends who grew up on the island who don’t feel that same deep connection that I do or like alternatively, there could be kids who grew up in very like urban environments who do also feel the deep connection. So I think it was partly, we like live growing up on Toronto island, but also like my parents. We went on camping trips as a kid and Northern Ontario. I feel like I’ve always been exposed to nature in a very special way.

[00:08:18] Jennifer: Was there a moment in your life where you ever said that you wanted to create change, come wondering how you got to here. Like really you’re an advocate for change. I was wondering if you know, when that fire started inside of you.

[00:08:33] Kate: I’ve never thought of it that I can’t think of like a, a pivotal moment. In my life where I was like, I need to, to be a change maker if or create change. Growing up again on the island. Like it’s a very, it was very close community. So we knew all of our neighbors. So I feel like I’ve always had a deep sense of community that I’ve loved. I was running the sailing school for six years. So through that, like built a big community around the sailing school. Like I grew the participation from like, A very small number to like a very, very large number and the time that I was there. So again, like coming back to that like community and like fostering that community minded spirit I think is really important to me. And I think via The Tare Shop have again, created another community of people who want to shop differently and want to shop smart.

[00:09:26] Jennifer: So, how did you come up with the actual idea for the business and then how did you move it forward and actually create a business from your idea?

[00:09:32] Kate: The idea for The Tare Shop came about just by reading about other package, free stores, popping up all over, knowing that I wanted one in Halifax. And in university, I remember like being in like an environmental course or sustainability course and just seeing. Tim Horton’s cups and almost every single students that like disposable cups and like, people will just do what is easy for them. So it’s just easiest for them to grab a to-go cup. They’re just always going to grab that to go. So thinking it would be cool to have a zero waste cafe that just doesn’t have disposable coffee cups. And I had kind of forgotten about that for a couple of years until the idea? for The Tare Shop started in my brain and thought that would be a really cool way to tie a coffee shop into a grocery store so that it’s not just a place where people go. It can then again, become a, like a community space, host events Makes it a little bit more of an experience than, than just going grocery shopping.

And then I was home one January visiting my family, and we were all lying on my bed, hanging out, discussing The Tare Shop. It was like very, very early, early days and dreaming up what the name could be. And I forgot who said it, but maybe my mom or my sister said Tare, Tare Shop, The Tare Shop?

Tare is the deduction of the container weight which ties again into that bulk shopping. And then to start it, I spent a year or two thinking about the business plan. Writing. Putting it down. Cause I was like, I can’t do this. I don’t know how to run a business. That’s a really important step. A, any lender is going to need to see your business plan to make sure you know what you’re doing, but it’s really also. Was really helpful to think out all the different aspects and make you do your research and your homework.

So writing the business plan, coming up with cashflow projections, which was really hard because there’s no market research or data on what people spend at a bulk store. So I ended up using social media. As I’m like a huge tool to do that research. So ask people, like, what do you spend on groceries a week? What do you spend at the bulk store? How often do you go? And use that data to help inform my cashflow projections? And then I was trying to find a property by myself. Eventually was like, I don’t know how to talk to commercial property people or big building owners. So ended up finding an amazing woman, Linda who helped me find both locations for, for The Tare Shop. Was a huge advocate and helping me understand what, what were my rights and what I was allowed to ask for.

[00:12:05] Jennifer: And if anyone hasn’t been to a store like yours, could you explain how that works and what the experience is like of going to like a zero waste store? I think a lot of people don’t have access to those yet in their communities. Lots of room for you to expand.

[00:12:19] Kate: So every store is going to be different. Company or business will have their own way of doing things. So I can speak to what The Tare Shop is like. So you walk in, you bring your own containers but if you don’t have any, we also sell repurpose containers for 50 cents. Just there’s already, we don’t sell new containers because there’s already so many containers in the waste stream already.

So folks can donate their containers to us and we’ll wash them and sanitize them. The 50 cents just to help recoup some of that labor for sanitizing and, and managing all that. So then you bring your containers up to the counter and this staff will weigh all of your containers. And we’ve. And we’ve found that to be a really important piece, that some other stores, you weigh your own containers, but we really like weighing the customer’s containers. Cause again, it is a lot of people’s first times doing this, or maybe COVID happen. And they haven’t been in, in a couple of years, so they forget how things work.

When people come in, we have that opportunity to check in, see how they’re doing, see how their day’s going and offer up that piece of education. So have they been here before? Do you need a refresher on how it works? And then once the containers are all weighed, we have filling stations. And that was the thing that came out of COVID that will stick around forever for us. Before we didn’t have a designated place where you did your filling people kind of just like perched up on the countertops or on the coffee tables. So now we actually have different stations where you can put all of your containers.

Bring the jar of almonds and chocolate caramels to your station. And do the filling there instead of trying to juggle glass jars above the ground. And then the beauty and one of my favorite reasons to shop package free is that if you only need a teaspoon of something for a recipe, you can literally just buy a teaspoon. This was probably Thanksgiving Canadian Thanksgiving. So late October mid-October I dunno. But we had just been open and a dad came in who was visiting their kid and was cooking the Thanksgiving meal and the kid didn’t have any of the right spices. So the dad came in and bought like, exactly. The number of teaspoons of each spice that he needed to make their family tradition meal. And that was so cool because I think that really just like highlights, you don’t need to buy a huge quantity if you just need a little bit. And then, Yeah. So once you fill up all of your containers, you bring them back And the staff deducts the container weight from the total, since the name Tare.

[00:14:51] Jennifer: And when you began to stock your shelves, when you’ve opened your store on your, began to stock your shelves, and you began to look into conventional goods that are available through wholesale, did you find anything surprising?

[00:15:03] Kate: What has surprised me pleasantly is the number of local suppliers who are willing to work with us and trade containers back and forth so that we don’t have their products packaged. That’s been a really happy happy surprise and like so grateful for all of our suppliers. There hasn’t been anything that’s been like too shocking or two surprise. But one thing that I did, that was pretty interesting for bringing in products. When we opened the first store we used, I think it was literally like 40 products that we stocked. And these were things that I again use the social media to, to ask people what they wanted us to sell and pick the most important ones or the most common ones.

And then we’ve brought products in and we’ve grown our offerings based on customer requests. So. The only products that haven’t moved or haven’t sold well, are the ones that I brought in that nobody had asked for. So that way we know what we are selling people want, and it won’t go to waste.

[00:16:03] Jennifer: And I assume that your background in sustainability does give you an unique advantage here, but has it in, let me try that again, but has it influenced how you make purchasing decisions when you are shopping for your store?

[00:16:16] Kate: I think being really. Like cautious, like, especially with any of the lifestyle products, making sure that I’m research thing, researching them to make sure that the company is one that we align with them, want to work with and even just like down to values and avoiding greenwashing. Which is unfortunately very, very common now is being eco and natural and sustainable is very trendy.

Making sure that the companies are doing what they’re saying they are doing.

[00:16:50] Jennifer: Yeah. As someone who owns a distribution company, myself too, one of the things that is always top of mind for us, uh, and it’s really the, the impacts of shipping.

And packaging. And it’s something that I think that most people don’t consider, like they’ll go into a store, they’ll think, oh, it’s local, because they’re only thinking about how they’re getting that from the shelf into their own home.

But they’re not necessarily thinking about how it got here in the first place. What are the costs associated? What are the costs associated with creating something like a traditional. Retail store in terms of environmental impact, like what else are you considering that we’re not thinking about.

[00:17:33] Kate: That’s such a great question. Cause even when I was living, like I still live low waste, but I used to have like the trash jar that I like recorded my waste in. Cause I think that’s a great tool to understand the type of waste you’re creating.

But even then, like that’s not the whole picture. You don’t see the waste that the store had, the packing material that it came to them and you don’t see all of the upstream waste as well. So I think the upstream waste is a huge piece that we don’t see. And all of those, like yeah. Upstream costs. So the emissions that that product took to get from where it was manufactured, the materials, the, where it was manufactured to getting it to the distributor, to get it to the retail store.

So all of those emission costs all of the social costs. So was the product did. Employer who made the product, pay their employees fairly with fair wages? How were they workers treated? So those are all, and I, you can’t talk about.

environmental issues without talking about social issues. They’re so intertwined.

So those are also all hidden costs and like with things like fast fashion the material is so, or the product is so cheap because all of those other costs are being captured in the product. They aren’t paying their workers fairly. They aren’t regarding any environmental impact, most likely. So those costs just aren’t being captured in those products.

[00:18:55] Jennifer: And so you’ve achieved B Corp certification. Congratulations. As a small business owner.

Exactly. Uh, as a small business owner, who’s been going on that journey for some time. Now I cannot imagine how difficult that was for you. Congrats.

But I’d like to talk about what certifications like that mean to you.

So if you’re sourcing products at wholesale, are you looking for certain certifications? And what does that tell you about the products that are certified? I was just wondering how important certifications are to you as someone who is in retail.

[00:19:31] Kate: Yeah, definitely. If we are deciding between two companies, One is B Corp certified, and one is not we’ll pick the B Corp certified as the consumer or somebody purchasing. It just takes away that research that you might want to do before looking into a product, because you know that the company has been through a rigorous process to get certified, you know, that they are doing what they’re saying, they’re doing, they’re putting their money where their mouth is, or whatever that saying is And they’re yeah, they’re committed to, as like B Corp slogan, they’re committed to using business as a force of good.

So obviously companies need to be making money to be successful, but at least like my definition of success is so much more deeper than that because I th I think a lot about impact and like the impact that my company has. So, Yeah, for like certifications, like B Corp are so good because they are helping to spread awareness and this movement of using business to create change and be a force for good is catching on and just gaining in popularity, which is so important.

And yeah, I forget where I was going with that.

[00:20:36] Jennifer: One thing that I love to add to this conversation, or one thing that I love to ask. Whenever this comes up is how do you think that impact business is resonating with consumers? Do you think that consumer behavior is shifting at the same pace that business owners are starting to think about

[00:20:50] Kate: impact?

A couple of things. I think that the business owners who are on top of it and aware of these trends and thinking this way, they are probably moving a bit quicker than the consumers, but I think the consumers are catching up. And already, like, I feel like in the last couple of years Consumers are getting smarter and more aware of the impacts that products have that businesses have and are starting to demand different and demand better and demand more transparency from the places that they shop at. So I think that businesses who aren’t thinking, and that’s not saying everybody has to be B Corp certified but people, businesses who aren’t. Being transparent and dark. Aren’t being forthright about what the impact that their businesses have. I think they will lose customers and they will lose some of their customer base because of that, for sure.

[00:21:50] Jennifer: So you started the shop with feedback from people on social media, giving you input into what to stock your shelves, which, which I love, but what was the moment that you realized that this could work or that people would actually be interested in supporting a business idea like this?

[00:22:05] Kate: When we announced the business on social media, it was such a scary thing because once you put it out there, you can’t take it back.

You can not do it, but you can’t. You can’t take it away. And like right away within the first couple of weeks, I was flooded with messages and emails. Emails and then messages from social media of people saying that they were so excited to shop this way. And they were so excited for The Tare Shop to open.

Cause they’d been trying to reduce their waste and it just hasn’t been possible or accessible to them. So right away that was like a pretty good, like, okay, we’re good. This is gonna work. And then you run all the numbers that you. I can guess and can make up educated guesses for your cashflow projections.

And almost right away, my numbers, the sales were way better than I ever expected them to be. More people were excited to be shopping this way. A lot of people in the direct community shopped because it was just closer than, than driving or walking to, to the bigger stores farther away. So that was another like, okay, like we’ve got this, this is going to work.

And another thing that I wasn’t expecting at all, but pretty much from even before we opened. Every week we would get messages. When are you opening up a tear shop in this community, this city, this town this province. So all over the country, I’ve had requests for Terra shops. So that was another really cool thing that I didn’t expect, but so many people would be so into this idea and wanted a tear shop in their community.

[00:23:37] Jennifer: And so I was looking around within your social media, I’m looking at your community and this, this real community feel that you have built with your followers. And one of the things that I. Really makes your store special to the people that love you really is that you do a lot of other things about X in order to be accessible.

Can we talk about your accessibility initiatives within your shop? Cause I think that they’re, they’re really exciting and interesting to talk about

[00:24:07] Kate: Yeah. So that was the I think, yeah, we would never open up a tear shop in a building, like even just base level building that wasn’t accessible. Folks with physical disabilities or mobility aids already have such a hard time navigating.

Really, especially really old cities like health facts. So being aware, just reducing that one barrier and then in our store making sure that it’s accessible for folks all walks of lives, making sure that it’s an inclusive, inviting, welcoming non-judgment space. And we have accessibility policies on our website. Like ensuring that our social media is accessible. So anytime we post a video with speech or text we include captions any time that we post a photo, we have an image description and our hashtags use camel case, which just means that the first letter of each hashtag is re within the hashtag is capitalized. Making sure that we eat like, even as simple as like having kids toys in the space, so that it’s a bit easier for a parent with young kids to come and shop, they can plot their kids down in front of the toy bin or books the kids can play while the parents do their shop. And that’s been such a special thing us.

[00:25:23] Jennifer: I love the scent free thing too. Cause I’m a scent. We’re a scent free family.

[00:25:27] Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Even like, there’s so many things that you, as somebody, without any barriers or accessibility needs that you might not even think about. So like all of the cleaning products that we use are scent free and we do sell scented products, but they’re all closed, so they don’t smell In the space.

And then like lights and sounds. We’re always happy to turn the music off or pause the music. Dim, the lights they’re all on dimmers if somebody needs to. So we don’t have like designated times, like I know Walmart might, or some other big stores might have designated times. But we’re happy to do that at all.

At any point of the day

[00:26:04] Jennifer: In your journey in specifically throughout the pandemic, have you encountered any other really big challenges?

[00:26:13] Kate: Not including COVID.

[00:26:15] Jennifer: I think there, I think COVID has just maybe amplified.

So our challenges as

[00:26:20] Kate: Yeah, definitely. Like even from the beginning, like I was 24 when I noticed the business, if my math is and memory are correct. And like I looked pretty young, so just even getting people to take me seriously and where the chair shop was such a new concept. There was no store in the province, like the chair shop Getting lenders to believe in what I was doing.

I had one lender who told me that my paraphrasing business plan was stupid. I would need plastic bags and disposable coffee cups to, to be successful. So, yeah, even just like getting people bought in on this idea has well, the community’s been very supportive getting some of the people in suits with the money to take me seriously.

But yeah, that COVID, yeah, it’s just amplified. Every challenge. And while we’ve been fortunate enough not to have any like labor issues and getting incredible folks on our team the labor shortages have affected some of our suppliers. So some of our suppliers locally, even, and who are able to do deliveries every day are now down to a couple of times a week managing like all the, yeah, the labor shortages, how they affect suppliers and leads, lead times being so unpredicted.

The w worst one was we placed an order, usually a weekly time, like four weeks, we still hadn’t heard. And it had all been paid for upfront. And then all of those little delays like that just really affect your cashflow. So it makes it harder to make that next purchase because your cashflow has been tied up for a while.

[00:27:54] Jennifer: And when we saw people hoarding toilet paper and, and, uh, when we saw people lie selling their groceries and wearing gloves every time they opened doors, I’m sure that that shift in like collective mindset really effected you and probably rattled you quite a bit. How did you feel when that happened?

Like what was going through your mind when COVID hit? And we were all, all of a sudden, so worried about things like sanitation, what was that?

[00:28:24] Kate: Oh, my gosh, it was so scary. I wish I kept like a journal or a diary even just to see how like, cause I feel like a trauma response is you don’t really remember. So I remember being terrified. But I don’t necessarily remember the feelings too deeply.

But yeah, it was so scary. I was in Toronto for a conference and got back like the Saturday night at like midnight before the world shut down. And just even. Yeah, asking staff to work. I wasn’t comfortable with staff working. They weren’t comfortable working, so laid everybody off. And I went back to working on the floor zero hours a week to working on the floor six days a week by myself.

Doing all the shopping for people. So people would come in and they’d stand in like one spot and I would do all the filling for them. Again, it was just all so unknown. And I remember wearing like gloves instead of a mask. Cause I thought that we just thought that was the safer thing. Didn’t realize how aerosol like transmittable by air.

It was and. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was really, really intense. And I would go grocery shopping. Typically, what did the grocery shopping for my household? Cause I was already out in the community and would come home and just like sod. It was so intense to be everybody also just got, we lost that, that community feel and that co like shared experiences.

Everybody was so tunnel vision and focused on themselves. Even like walking out on the street. Like nobody was saying hi to anybody else. Everybody was like looking down, looking away. So absorbed in like their own safety and their own wellbeing. There was one walk, my partner and I went on like April 20, 20, so peak, scary, scary times.

We were like, okay, we’re both like very low, very sad today. Let’s get out. Move our body get some fresh air and it just made it so much worse. Cause there was like police ticketing, people like walk cutting through the commons, which is a big field in Halifax. Like people are reading ticketed for being outside.

Everybody was like, so like wrapped up and, and, and yeah, not social and not friendly anymore. So that?

was a big mind shift and, and, and emotional mental thing to get over.

[00:30:50] Jennifer: Do you feel like a lot of customers of yours kind of rejected the idea of bulk or refill at that time?

[00:30:56] Kate: I think a lot of people did.

And. Like rightfully so it was a scary time. But it was pretty early on in the pandemic that there was a report issued by hundreds of, or over 125. I think it was like doctors and scientists and health professionals who said that using reusables was safe as long as they were clean, which for food health, safety, anyways, they should be clean.

So, and we like my waist to also definitely increase through dependent. But there was a lot of our regular customers. We probably lost for a bit there, but a lot who were so grateful to be able to like at least keep this part of normalcy and keep this way of reducing waste alive in their lives.

And also nice to like go somewhere where they felt very safe. A lot of the feedback that we got was this was like one of the only stores they felt safe going into. Cause it was just me and them. And I also definitely became like an emotional, like dumping ground for people who, some people come in and be like, I haven’t talked to another adult in like a week, like here’s my life.

Which was a lot, but, but nice to connect with customers as well.

[00:32:04] Jennifer: And now that COVID is kind of alleviating at least in terms of the way that we are all interacting with the world. Again, I know that. The zero waste living or low waste living took a huge hit through all of this. Like everybody, I was ordering my groceries. They were coming in plastic bags. It was eating my heart.

Every time, every time I had to wear a disposable mask, as opposed to a cloth mask, I throwing out it’s, it’s eating me inside. Are you seeing a shift now of people go. You know, extra in the direction of zero waste or being more mindful of waste after living through this like massive waste stream of the last two years.

Like, how is this shifting as someone who’s really on ground level

[00:32:46] Kate: here?

Yeah. I think people are even the people who might not have been very aware. Now aware, cause you can even see in the number of like garbage bags that you’re throwing out that waste all of our wastes have increased. So I think the people who were already trying are definitely committed to doing this and, and trying to live with less impact.

And I think I, yeah, I trying to stay optimistic, but I think. This has shifted things and we see have seen the impacts and know that we, that we need better for, for our world today than we have been doing.

[00:33:26] Jennifer: And when you’re speaking to your customers about taking steps or taking action in order to live a more sustainable life. What is your like top tip? What is the number one thing you tell people to do when they are coming to you as an expert and asking you what they can do to live more sustainably?

[00:33:45] Kate: The first tip, I always tell folks is to use up what you already have. So it’s way more wasteful to go to your pantry or your bathroom or your cleaning closet And throw out everything in there and replace it all. It’s a huge waste of resources. It’s a huge waste of money. So use up what you have and then as your bottle of cleaning, spray runs out refill that.

So we have. Like all purpose, cleaner concentrate. So refill things as you run out, instead of going and replacing it all and even like the plastic mop that you have is more sustainable than going out and buying like a, all bamboo one. So using what you already have is the most sustainable option.

And then the next thing I would say is be kind to yourself Yeah, this is all about like building habits and changing your mindset and that stuff doesn’t happen overnight. It takes time, it takes practice. And if you cave and buy a coffee in a disposable cup, like it’s not the end of the world remember to bring your mug next time or be being aware yeah, not beating yourself up if getting to a bulk shop isn’t accessible to you.

That’s okay. There’s other things that you can do to lessen your.

[00:34:57] Jennifer: And what about a small business owner? What is something that they can do to lessen their impact? Like what would you suggest to someone like me or someone who owns a business in your

[00:35:07] Kate: That’s a great one. I think being really. Like doing your research.

The number of business owners that have asked me about the compostable coffee cups, they’re not actually compostable in the majority of municipalities. They go to the landfill and just something compostable in the landfill isn’t necessarily better than something. Not like a garbage piece of garbage in the landfill.

So in the amount of business owners I’ve had, who asked me and I’m like, I hate to tell it to you. That’s not compostable. And they’ve spent more money per cup or whatever the product is on this like green sustainable compostable, PLA, uh, cup than they normally would have. So they’ve wasted a lot of money.

So yeah. Do your research. It takes a little bit of time, but at least in HRM, there’s waste educators who are always really be happy to chat And answer questions. So tap into the resources in your community and do your research before buying like a green product.

[00:36:06] Jennifer: And I think B Corp was a really big eye-opener for me, at least in terms. That kind of stuff. Of course, like really evaluating our business, which we already thought we were doing great. You know, we already had been so mindful of all these decisions, but going through the B Corp process has really opened our eyes to making those small changes.

But one thing as an outsider, And at first and B Corp, when I wasn’t involved at all. And I had never really heard about it before. I did know that sustainability was a big part of B Corp and I knew it was about protecting the earth. But what I did not know was that B Corp has such a community focus. And I was wondering since you’ve gone through B Corp and gone through the certification, how have you chose to.

What’s the word, how can we say this? How are you benefiting your community? I’m wondering what your community action oriented events are.

[00:37:09] Kate: Yeah.

[00:37:09] Jennifer: Are you serving your community?

[00:37:11] Kate: yeah, I love that. Yeah. One thing I think a lot of people don’t realize is that B Corp, isn’t just like in a focus on environmental. It’s also all about social And then community impact as well.

So I was inspired by 1% for the planet. But instead of doing 1%. Two different environmental organization. I wanted the, to give to directly to the community, so different organizations in the community, but also we’ve given to like go fund me campaigns and things like that. So very like direct community oriented organizations.

So one each quarter we donate 1% of our sales to a different community organization. And those are nominated by the community, voted on with the staff. And so that’s like one piece, we run events, we host other makers and creators for popups. We don’t charge people for that. It’s just a way to like bring people into the space.

And especially after COVID regained some of that community feel to the space. And yeah, like offering up our space, offering up our platform to community members, being, sharing things, amplifying voices is really important.

[00:38:17] Jennifer: And what about our children or the children in your community, the adults of the future. How do you think that the work that you’ve done is impacting them? Like, what do you think about the future of Halifax or the future of all of us as we explore zero.

[00:38:34] Kate: I think kids are so smart. And yeah, educating the kids is a huge piece of this. I think that’s how, like the recycling initiatives started. They went into schools and educated all of the kids and the kids went home and taught the parents how to, how to recycle.

So yeah, making sure that we are educating the kids and, and not necessarily like not sugar coating things. But doing it in a way that inspires them to create change or to change up habits or to encourage their parents to change up habits or guardians instead of like scaring them. Cause I definitely got scared in university.

And whereas I think if I had been aspired, it would have been like, I would have emotionally felt different for sure. So educating kids in a way that inspires them. So I love going into schools and giving talks and, and talking to youth groups, I’ve done a ton of those, especially pre COVID.

[00:39:30] Jennifer: I’m wondering if you’ve heard. I’ve seen a couple memes lately and I haven’t explored it at all, but, like grocery shopping in the 1950s and how different it was for now. Have you seen these memes?

[00:39:42] Kate: I don’t. I think I’ve seen like one, but one thing that I didn’t expect when we open, I kind of expected like young woman to be our primary target market. But what I didn’t expect was like 60 plus year olds to come in and being like, this is how we used to shop. This is amazing that we can shop this way again. So, yeah, we like plastic is a new invention. It hasn’t been around forever. And all shopping used to be packaged or plastic free.

I think the more locations that we have, the more impact that we can have, and the more common this becomes this way of shopping way of thinking just becomes more like mainstream and, and easier for folks.

[00:40:22] Jennifer: And do you think we’re going to get there?

[00:40:24] Kate: Yes, I do.

[00:40:26] Jennifer: If you want to learn more about Kate, package- free living and how to shop her carefully curated collection of low waste goods. Visit thetareshop.com. Looking to learn more about zero waste and the steps you can take to reduce plastic in your life. There are a lot of tips and resources on the Tare Shop’s blog. If you want to follow along with Kate on her mission to make package free living accessible. You can do so on Instagram @thetareshop

Yash Presswalla from Impact Skateboard Club left a career in music behind to start a nonprofit focused on supporting youth. In this episode we learn why he’s chosen to use skateboarding as a vehicle for social change. We discover how Impact’s programming, empowers children and youth to develop healthy self-esteem, resilience and other necessary life skills on and off the ramps. We hear how Impact teaches so much more than skateboarding. How their focus on accessibility, outreach and activism allows kids of all abilities and backgrounds to become skateboarders and champions for equality.

If you want to learn more about Yash, Impact Skateboard Club’s, programming, or to send a kid to skate camp visit www.impactskateclub.com. Have an empty warehouse in central Toronto? Or a lead on a suitable space for indoor programming? Impact would love to hear from you. You can follow along with Yash on his mission to help kids learn more about emotional wellbeing and social skills through skateboarding and social action. On Instagram @impactskateclub.

Links from this episode

• Impact Skateboard Club

Episode Transcript

[00:02:20] Jennifer Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to the Cost Of Goods Sold. I’m your host, Jennifer Myers Chua and this is episode number 24.

In today’s episode, we chat with Yash Presswalla from Impact Skateboard Club. We learn why Yash decided to leave a career in music behind to start a nonprofit focused on supporting youth. And why he’s chosen to use skateboarding as a vehicle for social change. We discover how Impact’s programming, empowers children and youth to develop healthy self-esteem, resilience and other necessary life skills on and off the ramps. We hear how Impact teaches so much more than skateboarding. How their focus on accessibility, outreach and activism allows kids of all abilities and backgrounds to become skateboarders and champions for equality.

Before building impact skateboard club Yash Presswalla was a working musician. Spending his twenties playing jazz and teaching skateboarding on the side. Teaching and performing were things that he enjoyed. And although he didn’t become the rock star, he once dreamed of becoming Yash had settled into a life of weekend music gigs and summer camps. But when Yash turned 30, he began to reevaluate. where would he be at 40? In a decade. Would he be playing covers at bars? Would alcohol have a hold on him? Would he be playing? Can’t help falling in love by Elvis Presley. Every day, every wedding, every weekend. Where was he going with this life?

[00:04:01] Yash Presswalla: I didn’t realize it at the time, but I was very insecure and and still kind of living with the attitudes of a teenager. I think in part, because of like the people I had around me, who I was influenced by and just the choices I made for myself, like where I chose to spend my time and what I did. That involved drinking and drug usage. But it wasn’t all bad. Like it wasn’t a disaster. On the surface at all.

[00:04:27] Jennifer Chua: This is not what he had wanted for his career and it wasn’t his life’s ambition. And he did know that he was a good teacher and that he was great with kids. And while teaching skateboarding was something that he enjoyed and was a good source of supplemental income. Yash had had a falling out with his business partner.

[00:04:45] Yash Presswalla: And, uh, That partnership didn’t really end up working out too well. It was always kind of fraught, but at this time when everything sort of changed and I decided that I didn’t want to be playing cover gigs for the rest of my life. And I didn’t want to keep drinking and because alcohol was abundantly accessible, just doing what I did. And I didn’t want to keep taking shit from people. I realized that I wasn’t even, I started becoming introduced to the concept of what boundaries even mean. And I realized that I was very much a people pleaser. So, When all of these things changed, I also decided to leave that business partnership where I was doing skateboard camps and programming and and that sort of all blew up in kind of a bad way, but I decided that I’m good at this.

[00:05:32] Jennifer Chua: So he established Impact as a nonprofit and we’ll chat about that decision in a bit. But the intent was that the kids who didn’t have access to programming, like this would have a chance at scholarships. And Yash was already well-known in the skateboard community. He had established himself with the parents looking for this kind of instruction. And after building a board of directors Impact was up and rolling.

But even after a couple of years of programming success impacts camps and workshops sell out in a flash. Yash is always trying to expand and push Impact Skateboard Club forward. Using a council of young people and volunteers Impact has been established as a positive and welcoming space for everyone. From summer campers to at-risk youth and those facing barriers to involvement.

[00:06:23] Yash Presswalla: The underlying goals were very different because it’s not just about like an athletic pursuit or physical exercise or, a recreational activity, but more about what the deeper implications of that are. And I also wanted to make sure that skateboarding was accessible to anyone who wanted to do it. It’s already a pretty accessible activity, at least in this part of the world, because we have access to skateboards and I’m like, there are shops around and you can get a skateboard handed down to you. and a helmet, if you’re a kid, and once you have that then you’re pretty much ready to go. You don’t need a team or a field or anything, except for some flat ground and your skateboard. But even still, that’s not easy for everyone to get. So I wanted to make sure that people could get skateboards, like especially young people if they wanted them.

[00:07:08] Jennifer Chua: And why is this so important to you? Like all the work that you do around equity, inclusion, advocacy, was there an event that shaped how you see the world? This.

[00:07:17] Yash Presswalla: My mom has always worked with kids with special needs. So, like inclusion and accessibility has always been a conversation growing up and, and throughout my life but I think the real motivation for me to do things this way was I just kind of looked back at where I got tripped up as a young person and what might have helped me. What I needed that I didn’t have that ended up causing a lot of distress and and like unnecessary complications. Like the lack of self-esteem without even really being conscious of it, the lack of knowing what my identity was or where it lay, the people pleasing thing, like all of that stuff was just a combination of the way I grew up and the people I was around, and the choices I made.

And there’s so many intersections there where I feel like positive male influences in my life, or, X, Y, and Z, that, that I might’ve been able to make better choices. So that’s what I’m trying to provide. Hopefully be a good role model. And I do that by just trying to continually work on myself and be the best version of myself in my work and outside of it.

And then just kind of be there for people. Young people in an inappropriate way where I had older people in my life when I was growing up, but they weren’t really modeling things that ended up serving me. So I want to try to model things that are going to serve the people that I’m working.

[00:08:46] Jennifer Chua: And what about making a difference? Can you remember a moment that led you on this path to wanting to take your life, to make difference for kids or people in our community?

[00:08:57] Yash Presswalla: um, I don’t think it was a moment. It just kind of seems like the right thing to do. This is maybe a bit after the fact, but being in a recovery program helped me understand what it means to not just like be sober, but to have a productive life. And most importantly, like the end of 12 step program, or like the last step is using what you’ve learned to help others.

And by giving it away is how you end up keeping it for yourself. So I was kind of already on this path before I got there but that just really reinforced like, oh yeah. That’s why I do it. It’s not, it’s not because I necessarily want to feel good about myself, but it feels like I do feel good being able to give back what I’ve gotten. And what I’ve gotten is like people who understand people who listen, people who have helped me without asking for anything in return.

I get a feeling of fulfillment from being able to do that myself. And it also helps me just grow as a person. So it’s not like I made some kind of selfless decision to like, I’m just going to be good and help people. It’s really like a full circle thing because I see it as when we help other people, it’s like, we’re helping ourselves too, because I see us as one big us. So it’s not like, oh, these poor unfortunate people that I’m helping, or these poor kids that would be so lost without me. It’s like, it’s a symbiotic thing where we’re all kind of in it together. And when one of us succeeds, we all succeed. That’s how I see it.

[00:10:27] Jennifer Chua: So why did you choose to go on the route of creating a nonprofit? Like you could have built a social enterprise business with a giveback program. I’m just wondering, why did you choose the path of nonprofit for this venture?

[00:10:39] Yash Presswalla: I had no idea what I was doing. I knew as far as business savvy went, I just knew to treat people. To like, do what you say you’re going to do, and if you mess up, fix it. Even when I was a business previously, I was never led by how am I going to make the most money?

The money was always just like incidental and like keeps you going, but not the most important thing. So being able to provide accessibility was kind of one of the core components when this was just an idea before it even became a real thing. And in my mind, and with the little knowledge that I had at the time, I wanted to be able to access outside funding so that for people who were not able to afford programs, people like staff still need to get paid. We still have, equipment to buy and there’s still money that needs to come in. But I wanted to be able to find ways to. Not have that financial burden be completely on the people who are participating. Particularly for those who can’t afford it. So the gears were going and I thought, well, nonprofits can get outside funding.

And I’d formed a small board of directors and one of the directors runs a non-profit daycare center. So she was like instrumental, especially in the beginning, but even now in just helping me navigate. How to incorporate how to you know, access those funds. And we never really did end up finding that much outside funding. Like we’re all pretty much self self-funded at this point, aside from grants here and there. But as we continue to grow and, you know, as we re-establish an indoor space and all these things that I want to do, we’re going to need funding from outside. And I know that it’s out there and it’s just, I’m learning as I go. But the whole idea of the nonprofit was just to be able to not have the financial burden lay on the people who are participating. So the families and the kids.

[00:12:31] Jennifer Chua: and what are your programs look like? Like what are you doing to support the community? How are you actually connecting with these kids. What are you actually doing with them?

[00:12:41] Yash Presswalla: Lots of things. So the in-person programming primarily takes the form of like lesson programs and the lessons, or like summer camp or weekend, hour long sessions where we’re learning how to skateboard, but. Deeper core component of like, what does this activity actually do for us? So how does skateboarding build confidence?

What happens when we all kind of like work towards something and develop these relationships with each other and become part of a community? Like what then, how do we leverage that to, maybe help others or even help ourselves or to relate better to each other, to develop social skills, all that stuff has kind of built in.

And I knew that going in to establishing as a nonprofit and kind of like having these ideas of deeper goals for the whole thing, but as we’ve gone along and the more I dig, the more I see the richness of this particular thing that I know well, that can help.

There are things like workshops that we’ve done. So like somewhat skateboarding adjacent, but maybe not necessarily. For example, we did this series a couple of summers ago where it was an art based series. Combined with skateboarding, somewhat haphazardly in cases.

But I I just reached out to people that I knew who had other skills. So for example, the first one was like a music workshop where I had a drummer friend of mine bring in a bunch of progressive instruments and taught the kids about just like basic rhythm and playing together and like listening and time, just in a fun, really introductory.

These kids who already skateboarded or who were interested in skateboarding, had them come out to this free workshop where they got to learn this new skill. And then they all got to skate together. So not directly related, but we could still do it all in same day. Another one in that same series was a photography thing.

 Another one that we did, that’s another skateboard adjacent thing is like a graffiti workshop. So a friend of mine who is a really great artist came in and everyone had sketchbooks and he talked a little bit about lettering and. Obviously, like I really wanted to stress that graffiti is different from vandalism. And so you don’t write on things that are not yours. But there’s plenty of examples at the skate park of really great art and also not really great scribblings. And so they got to see what that means from somebody who does like murals and really puts time and effort into what they do. Compared to scratching a swear word on the skate park concrete. And so they got to practice their lettering in the book. And then we had them use spray paint on this giant canvas. And that was really fun for them too. We did a yoga workshop, that same series, so that kind of stuff has always been really interesting to me because then we’re helping them branch out and try new things that they might not necessarily try otherwise.

That following summer, I think this was the summer right before COVID. We did the same kind of thing, but had a couple of kids lead the workshops. So one of them was really into like tie dying. So I got her to teach all her peers how to tie and we just facilitated the, like the supplies and the t-shirts and stuff like that. And she was the one teaching everyone. Another little girl does like this awesome splatter, like Jackson Polack grip, tape artwork. So she’s got this really cool method. And I loved it so much that I invited her to do it, and I think she was like eight at the time and just a pretty beginner skateboarder too, but was so cool the way she was like teaching these teenagers, her like little technique for doing it.

And so we were able to provide the grip tape and like the paint and everything. And, and I, I really loved doing those because that put these kids. And in this case it was two girls. And like these leadership positions where I know they’re both super nervous and like wanting to do it, but also didn’t want to do it and ended up doing it. And it was good for everybody. Like everyone really loved it. And they had such a positive experience too, just from being able to facilitate and prove to themselves, they could do something like that. So I really love that.

Another really important thing that I do want to mention is the youth council. So that’s for 12 and over. They kind of started as monthly meetings. And my original thought is if we’re going to be serving children and youth, I want young people in this kind of advisory role so that it’s not just. me making the decisions about what we do and how we do it, but I want their feedback of like, what do you guys want? What do you need? Or what do you think young people need? And so it started like that, and that is part of the role of the council. It’s kind of just became like a safe place for them to talk about things and discuss whatever’s affecting their lives. So there’s been all kinds of. Awesome conversations.

And some people are really active participants and talk a lot and some just come and sit there and listen the whole time. But you know, talking about what’s going on at school, talking about like addiction talking about all kinds of discrimination. Stuff that’s maybe that I might not bring up to like a six or seven year old, but that is very relevant and real for teenagers. And they don’t have other places to talk about this kind of. So just even giving them a chance to share, it’s not like a lecture thing. We can introduce a topic and you can speak on it and I can share my experiences with them and hear what they have to say about it. And that’s been really awesome too.

So some of the kids in that council don’t even skateboard. Like they they’re just not into skateboarding, but they still come to that because they know it’s a safe place for them to be, and they can relate to other people and build relationships and. My role, there is just kind of like the caring adult. That’s not overbearing, but also going to keep things from going off the rails.

[00:18:21] Jennifer Chua: Now when I was a teenager in the 1990s, there was a lot of us skateboarding, but there was not so many. Kids around, like, I never saw children’s skateboarders until I grew up and have a child skateboarder of my own. What is the skateboard scene look like in Toronto these days?

[00:18:40] Yash Presswalla: It’s so different. So it’s the same when I started there weren’t any skate parks really in Toronto. We were just like skateboarding on the street and generally like 6, 7, 8 year olds aren’t left to just run the streets. I think in general. I was probably like 12, 13 when I started being able to go out by myself and hang out with my friends and just come home before dark or whatever.

And it was very much this, I guess gatekeeping is the word that comes to mind. It’s almost like, I felt like you have to be good before you can even like show yourself at a skate spot or, or like be around those better skateboarders. Not that I ever really felt intimidated because I started skateboarding with a group of friends and there was like a crew of us.

So I could imagine it would be different if I was just really into it and started solo, which a lot of kids do. But I never felt that intimidation so much, but I definitely felt Like a bit of anxiety in that these older guys were okay. Skating with us, but I was still like, I was trying to seem cool around them or maybe I would allow things that I wasn’t okay with just because I didn’t want to like rock the boat or because I want it to be accepted. I just stayed quiet when I maybe should have said something or I may be stuck around when I should have left. Because I didn’t, I had no idea how to like, trust my. Or that my instincts maybe were correct. And that the thing all around me was not the right thing to do. But I ended up hanging out with these older guys and they, they were friendly in a way, but it was that kind of way where they’re like, they’ll let you hang out with them, but they’ll still bully you kind of thing.

And, but in my mind, at the time that was a win because I had these cool, their friends who are like awesome at skateboarding. Today that’s a lot different because there are first of all skate parks. So that’s cool. And a lot of parents are actually really involved with their kids. Whereas my parents were by no means like neglectful, but they would not have had, even if there were skate parks, I don’t think they would have had time to like spend eight hours there with me while I just like tried tricks all day. And some parents I see at parks do have that ability. I know not most of them, but they’re still this, this it’s pretty common for like parents to bring their kids to the park. Sit on the grass or pull up a chair and just kind of like read or do work or whatever it happens to be. But I was just not that kid.

I would not have been okay with that because I would have wanted my parents far away from what I was doing. And I’m not, I think there’s plenty of reasons why, and I won’t, I won’t go into all of them, but it’s just cool to see that skateboarding is not kind of seen as that. Degenerate thing as much anymore.

It’s, it’s a slow climb, but it’s coming around to that. You know, it’s like a lot more legitimate in the eyes of non skateboarders, I think. And part of that has to do with like the kids involved in the families involved. And the fact that skateboarding in and of itself is totally wholesome and like amazing and such a, a great learning experience in all kinds of ways.

But it wasn’t quite that. Even with the like trying and failing and getting better at something and the way that it builds your confidence, that didn’t really apply to me because nobody pointed out to me that, Hey, you really worked hard at this and you succeeded. Maybe you can do that for other things like that. There was no connection there. So I missed the boat on that lesson kind of. And so I think just talking about it or introducing kids to these concepts. Okay. Can be really helpful, but if you don’t talk about it, then it’s a missed opportunity.

[00:22:07] Jennifer Chua: Social action and activism is a big part of what you do as well. Can you speak a bit more to why that’s so important and how skateboarding can be a vehicle for social change?

[00:22:18] Yash Presswalla: So the way I see it is that skateboarding is a community. And it’s a really strong community in a lot of ways, because we have this shared experience of like struggle and pain, like literally when it comes down to it, there’s a lot of things where people can develop comradery and rapport, like on the music side of things, I can relate to other musicians because we’ve kind of spent the time working toward these similar goals.

And so if I see somebody that kinda knows what they’re talking about, musically, I know that they’ve had that shared expense. where skateboarding’s a little bit different because in order to get that shared experience, you really have to hang on through some tough times and like tough times being physical pain, a lot of time, you know, like falling and, and just even the frustration of so much failure just to get a little bit of success. In my experience that really brings skateboarders together. To the extent that like I can go to a country. They don’t speak English. And if I have my skateboard and see other skateboarders, like I’m automatically in that crew, I can go up to them and feel comfortable talking to them, or like using my hands to communicate and more than just like skateboard with them. It’s given me like places to stay in different countries or advice on where to go, where to eat, where to, you know, like where the different spots are. So that’s cool. And so with that shared experience and that like sense of community, I think by extension, we have a really unique opportunity to leverage that community and mobilize because together we can do more than we can on our own.

And so what I try to do with the young people, or at least what I try to introduce them to and provide resources and opportunities is for them to use the community that we’ve already got to stop. To go out and help each other and help others outside of the community. So that comes in the form of like, advocacy for homelessness and just reinforcing that you don’t have to do something big and grand for it to matter that even small things matter.

So we’ve done things even with the little guys working with other organizations like Elizabeth Fry comes to mind, which is a nonprofit. Supports women who are coming out of criminal justice system. And a lot of the time those women are incarcerated because of crimes related to abuse by men or their partners. And so this organization kind of helps people who are coming out of prison or jail and and a lot of the time they’ve lost access to their kids or, there’s all kinds of restrictions. So even things like writing mother’s day cards for those ladies from the kids can be such a, an easy, small thing for us to do, but that can be so meaningful for somebody who’s struggling.

And so that’s something that as individuals, we could do that, but as a community of skateboarders, I mean, that’s something we did with the littler kids, but even they can understand that people who are having a hard time, even just like a little card from you can be really meaningful and that’s empowering for the kids too.

In terms of the stuff that we’ve done around homelessness that’s really kind of taken off during COVID too, because of the encampments that were set up in different parks. So it started with collecting. Supplies for care kits. So just like basic stuff that people could use, like clean socks or hygiene supplies or whatever. We were able to put that together through different donations that the youth council put together. And I was able to leverage some of our contacts. And so they assembled these kits, which was the original idea, but I even had a couple of them go out with me to the encampments and get to hand them out and meet people because it’s not just about giving things.

It’s about realizing that like, people who are living in an encampment are not different from us. They’re not a different kind of human being. They still have the same, like wants and needs and they, have a lot of the same struggles. So it’s, I think we can understand that intellectually, but actually being able to go out and talk to folks and just have a normal conversation. That’s not about like, oh, so you’re living in a tent. How’s that going? It’s like, we can just talk about the things that you talked to anyone about. That’s really been awesome for me. And I know that it’s been impactful for the kids who were able to do that with me too. The skateboard community is so tight knit in a lot of ways, and there’s just such great opportunities there to leverage that at solidarity and pour it out.

[00:26:44] Jennifer Chua: And I follow you on social media and have seen all of the things that you’ve done with rallies and events to support everyone from refugees to the queer community, to those struggling with mental health. Why is this important to you? Why do you choose to use impact to help these communities as well?

[00:27:04] Yash Presswalla: um, I guess it’s just an extension of, of what I care about and it starts there. When I start talking about it, I can see that a lot of the kids in our orbit also care about these things. So in a way, I don’t think this is like the intention behind it, but just the result is I’m influencing other people to either think about these issues or to, go out and change the way that they do things too.

But the, I guess the reason is just again, cause it’s the right thing. And everything is connected in some way. So like the mental health is connected to the inclusion is connected to discrimination and it’s connected to like helping people who are struggling because we are all those people, like we all struggle in different ways. So developing empathy I think goes a long way, and it’s not just about this issue with that, but it’s all kind of one thing. Which is we are all people and it’s like try to treat each other, right. Even people that we might not necessarily get along with, or even that we like play an old don’t like we can still see them as like human and worthy of respect and care and dignity.

[00:28:14] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to look into maybe community services or supporting children, did you have any realizations surrounding how we are supporting kids in our society? There may be disadvantaged in some way. Like what are the costs to how we are treating kids that need our help in, in our society currently?

[00:28:37] Yash Presswalla: That’s a really good question. And it can be actually for me a little bit overwhelming and. I know sad at times, because there’s only so much that we can do as like, youth leaders or whatever. I’m not every kid’s parent and they need their parents to fulfill certain rules that, that are just not appropriate or possible for me to fulfill.

Even though sometimes I really want to, if I think that they’re not getting what they need, but that can be hard. It’s just kind of accepted. Not everyone is getting what they need so I can do my best, but it’s not ever going to be like world saving stuff and that’s okay. But it is heartbreaking at times to deal with I think what I can bring to the table or not even me, but what skateboarding can really bring to the table is that it’s, it can be such a process of self discovery.

And I think that’s something every. It needs to deal with, or it needs to experience in their home, you know, and unfolding. I really come back to the fact that it must be so hard to be a kid growing up with everything we have going on right now. I guess every generation can say that, but just like internet and social media and like lack of person to person interactions.

Or just the fact that they’re so different from pre-internet times. I see that play out and the effects of that, the negative effects of that in a lot of ways some of the positives are that there’s a lot more acceptance and knowledge of like mental health issues and and what discrimination really is.

And, and we’ve kind of been able to tighten up on a lot of things that were wrong, but totally socially acceptable when I was. But the flip side is that kids are super anxious, depressed, and, and really struggled to form relationships that are meaningful and, and real. There’s like a lot of surface level posturing and performative kind of everything going on.

And I think a lot of that just comes from the fact that. We don’t really have place to be bored anymore, you know? And I think from boredom kind of comes that, like, you kind of sit with it and it’s uncomfortable and it’s like itch. And from that, you can figure out like, well, I’d really like to do this, or I’d like to pick up an instrument draw or, but it’s so easy to avoid all that now, but I just like scrolling or, or just mindlessly spending time on your phone or on the.

So, so much so that we not only stifle that kind of natural growth that I think happens for most people, but we actually like regressed in a lot of ways. And I noticed that for myself too, even though I didn’t like grow up with that for my early childhood, but I really I’m constantly checking myself.

Like I need time to just rest and unplug and be still because rest isn’t like watching a show or. I like scrolling Instagram. It’s like, it’s actually spending time with myself and it’s, I think so vital and necessary. And I, I think that’s something that we need to emphasize more, especially for young people, but for everyone.

[00:31:55] Jennifer Chua: And how else have you seen this work impact the kids and the teens that. you’re spending time with? Have you seen any really profound changes in them as a whole, like as a little collective.

[00:32:05] Yash Presswalla: I guess I frame it more as individuals, but there are a lot of them, so they form a collective and I’ve seen it play out in just having these relationships that, you know, over the months and years just the conversations start to change the questions they asked, start to change. And again, as individuals, I I’m really encouraged by times when, when the conversation kind of references or mirror something that we’ve talked about once before.

And I can tell that there’s been like a thought process and time spent with the idea and it comes back around full circle. It’s just cool to see. It’s cool to see how much young people are capable of. Because I know that again, intellectually, but I think we discount them a lot, especially like children.

There’s this kind of adult switch that goes off for a lot of people. I think it’s like, oh, they don’t know what’s going on or they don’t really get it. But they get a lot more than we often give them credit for. And I think just. Acknowledging that to them and giving them choices and giving them as much autonomy is like, as, you know, it’s as appropriate and, and helpful to them.

Uh I’ve I’ve been surprised and I even expect it. And I’m still surprised. So just seeing, yeah, like with our kind of core group that I’ve known for a few years now, seeing that whole group kind of like elevate their mental state and their attitudes toward things. Ability to understand the world around them is, is really awesome and totally inspiring because I’m still trying to do the same thing.

[00:33:50] Jennifer Chua: And how about us like you and me as a small business owner and the owner of a nonprofit or the listeners who maybe are in the same category, how can we best support the adults of the future?

[00:34:01] Yash Presswalla: That’s a good question. And I think it comes back to at least what I’ve settled on at this time. My answer might change a year from now, but I don’t think it will. It’s just that the best thing that I can do to help anybody is to work on myself. In recovery, they there’s like a lot of phrases or sayings that go around and one of them is that you can’t give what you don’t have.

So. If I can be my best self, then, then I can pass that along because young people in particular have a really good bullshit meter and they can tell on an instinctive level when somebody’s faking it. And it’s sad and you know, it’s kind of disappointing a lot of the times, but a lot of people and especially in nonprofit world or a say they’re doing something and don’t actually do it.

And it’s kind of just about the image of doing something. And so I think just being authentic is the best thing that we can do and encouraging young people to be authentic and true to themselves. But you can’t do that if you’re not true to yourself. And I think that goes same for raising kids and same for influencing peers, our own age or older, or.

Just being the kind of person that that you would like to meet. That’s my take on it.

[00:35:18] Jennifer Chua: So in your journey with impact skateboard club, have you encountered any really big challenges like COVID or otherwise? Has there been anything that’s just been really, really challenging and difficult to get through?

[00:35:32] Yash Presswalla: Yes. I think that perhaps you and a lot of people who might be listening to this could even relate, but letting go has been the. Letting go of control and and I’m still very much in the process of that letting go. But in the sense of, I don’t want to be integral to run the show. I want this to be able to flourish with or without me.

And so I’m kind of trying to build the foundation as solid as I can, but at some point it would be great for somebody else to take my. And up until that point, it would be great for other people who are like-minded to facilitate what I do. And so it’s not just like all me making the decisions and doing all the work all the time.

I think that’s important for several reasons. First of all, I tried to not get consumed by any one particular thing. There’s definitely seasons and, and the first few years of impact I was consumed and I think that was, yeah. Good thing and the right thing, but those are seasons and I don’t think it needs to stay like that.

So, finding the right people has been a challenge because I am not in a pretentious way, but I really set the bar very high and it’s super high because I believe that kids need to have good people around them, safe people not perfect people, but people that are going to. Not do any harm, you know, even in terms of their own personal attitudes that might come through.

I think it’s important that people kind of have that right heart going into this type of work. And unfortunately, a lot of people that work with kids shouldn’t be in my opinion, and that goes for like teachers and like, you know, recreation facility, facilitators and coaches and all that stuff.

I think there’s like a lot of inner work that needs to be done to be effective. And to really like help young people thrive. So again, not being pretentious, I haven’t done all of that work that I think should be done, but but I’ve definitely addressed a lot of things and like the me of 10 years ago, I probably wouldn’t hire today to work with kids.

You know, not because I was like unsafe. But it’s because there’s a lot of stuff that I needed to deal with before I could give it to somebody else. So that’s been a pretty big challenge. The first of all the letting go and the second part of that is like just finding the right people at the moment.

I’m really, really happy with the team that we have. It’s pretty small, but but I trust them all and and they do awesome work and I’m just like really great. For all our crew. But I’d like more of them and I’d like, I’d like people to take on more than just an instruction role or more than just a programming role, but more like a, an administrative and like a visionary role as well.

Cause I, I think I have good ideas, but I also know other people have good ideas that I have not thought of yet. And so it’s important to, to bring people in, especially like young adults who are closer to the age group of the people that will be.

[00:38:36] Jennifer Chua: Yeah. And I’d like to learn more about your clubhouse. So unfortunately you had to shut down your physical space. I’d like to learn why you had to shut it down, first of all, but why is having that physical space so important to impact in your overall goals?

[00:38:51] Yash Presswalla: First and foremost, it’s just a skateboarding space for the winter. Yeah. Necessary like this is, it’s not just like a fringe, you know, recreation, hobby, or a sport it’s it’s mainstream now. And so many people participate in skateboarding and get so much out of it that I think it’s pretty ridiculous that we don’t have more infrastructure for it.

And I think it’s just that. We’re kind of running a few years behind. So skateboarding has grown a lot in popularity and it does come in waves, but we’re at like, you know, a peak of one of those waves. And I think it’s still going up and it takes a little while for like policy to fall into place behind that.

So I think we will see more infrastructure. It’s encouraging how many outdoor parks there are and how much and, and the plans to create more. But the indoor thing is really an issue here where we live. Half the year, outdoor skate parks are not viable. They’re not, you can’t use them when there’s snow on the ground or when it’s wet or even when it’s super cold.

So, having that indoor space is just for the skateboard community at large, like forget about impact or kids. We need them. There’s not enough, not nearly enough. There’s one spot in Mississauga and there’s another spot in Scarborough. That’s pretty. Not enough for the community of skateboarders that there are in the city and there’s nothing in the middle.

So I’m speaking for myself and for this organization. And what, what the goals of, of impact are it’s important to have the space, not only to just give people a place to skate, but to foster an inclusive community and really have people whose values are aligned in the same way. Have a place to get together and meet and plan and do and flourish.

So I see a facility like you called it a clubhouse. And I think of it as like a youth space, more than just an indoor skate park, because when we briefly had our indoor space, I really wanted it to be like a safe place for people to come and sure. Escape, but also just to like, be with the friends and hang out and do the things that young people like.

But in this, you know, with this kind of like air of supervision where it’s not, they were just going to like party, like I did when I was a kid. But also not where the, where you would be like shunned for doing that either. It’s like just an environment where you can come and be exactly who you are and you don’t have to put on the airs.

When I was younger and started skateboarding, there was actually one skate park, right. Downtown. And and it was awesome and like grimy and gritty and like all the things you would think of for like a nineties, early two thousands skate park. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t where I would bring an eight year old.

And and I think the places like that do have their place too. And it’s cool. Like maybe teenagers and young adults don’t want to hang out where eight year olds are going to be hanging out. And that’s fine like that. But what I’m trying to do is create a space where everyone feels comfortable and, you know, maybe older people would want to go somewhere else after, or, or do something else, or like be in a different kind of environment as well.

But I want to try to make something that’s like equally accessible and comfortable for whoever comes through. And and beyond that, I want to be able to provide more than just skateboard programming, but my background’s in art music. So like, some kind of facility for that. I think fitness and nutrition are so important.

I think like so many young people, myself included are into like music and production and like digital arts. And so having facilities and spaces for all these things is kind of like the dream. And on top of that, even having a place where people can get their first employment, like a small cap, Coffee shop allowing area, a place where kids can like, you know, just instead of hanging out at a library or a coffee shop, they can come do their homework or, you know, like play games or chat with each other or apply for university or apply for a job and have adults around them that are safe that can help them with those things too.

So that’s kinda like the vision I have right now and it’s all these really awesome. Pie in the sky ideas, but I know that those can come together too can happen. I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it happen. And I’ve like seen the end result of it too. So, I’m really encouraged and, you know, yeah. Money is a huge issue, especially because the place has to be so big and we want to have it like within the city of Rome.

And that’s a challenge too, but I don’t really focus too much on why I can’t do it. And more, just try to look for ways that we can. And just take it one step at a time, because in my experience, things will fall into place. If you just prepare and have faith and believe that it can work and work for it.

[00:43:48] Jennifer Chua: And the children in our community, the adults of the future, the kids that you’re serving, obviously I usually ask, how do you think that your work is supporting these kids, but like it’s obvious that your work is supporting these kids. So based on your interactions with these kids and all of the works that you’re doing, that you’ve been doing, are you hopeful for the future?

[00:44:10] Yash Presswalla: I am super hopeful and encouraged. The conversations that I hear happening, or like the topics that come up are so far beyond the kinds of things I would have talked about at that age or that my peers would have talked about. They’re, you know, young people are so thoughtful and and so aware of life around them.

That’s not to say that they’re infallible or like fully immersed in everything that’s going on. Yeah, I’m not trying to say it and him and I in an idealized kind of way, but they give a shit about what goes on in their world. And and so many of them are empowered to do something about it. And again, like it doesn’t need to be something grand.

It can just be a small action, a small word an attitude. And it just, it builds on that. So it’s, it’s been really cool to see. Just how deep of an understanding and more important than you caring they have for each other and, and the world that they’re inheriting. Yeah. And it’s just, it’s so striking sometimes when I stepped back from it for a second and just, you know, do a quick contrast of what was going on with me at that age. Like I had so much less of that kind of self-awareness and that care for the bigger picture. So I’m really, really hopeful and encouraged by that.

[00:45:32] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Yash, Impact Skateboard Club’s, programming, or to send a kid to skate camp visit www.impactskateclub.com. Have an empty warehouse in central Toronto? Or a lead on a suitable space for indoor programming? Impact would love to hear from you. You can follow along with Yash on his mission to help kids learn more about emotional wellbeing and social skills through skateboarding and social action. On Instagram @impactskateclub.

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher from Pillars of Light came together in the darkest part of the pandemic, with the goal to spread love and light throughout the world. In this episode, we learn how the two explored the one-for-one model and other ways to give back, before settling on a partnership with GivePower. We discover why they chose luxury candles and why they went from pouring their own to partnering with a manufacturer in Montreal. We bring to light the unique challenges of launching a product in COVID times, learn what it means to be purpose- first. Hear what they learned about candle safety and funding for female-founded companies, and why after committing to bringing clean drinking water to 1 Million People, they feel so hopeful for the future. 

If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon and how they’re Giving love through light—with a 1-for-1 approach visit www.pillarsoflight.co. Looking for that perfect gift? Their giveback model means that your purchase gives access to 5 years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on Instagram @pillars_of_light.co

Links from this episode

• Pillars of Light Co.

• GivePower

Episode Transcript

 

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: It’s 2021 in the middle of Canadian winter and in the middle of the pandemic when friends, family, and community members were isolated and really struggling. Two friends decided to come together to spread a little light and the two who live more than two hours apart, connected online and over the phone to chat about creating a business. With the idea to create a product rooted in people and purpose that would bring a sense of hope to those around them. But they also wanted to focus on social impact and giving back. Spreading light all over the world as a symbol of life-giving hope.

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher met in the health and wellness space. And as former co-workers, they had always dreamed of finding a way to collaborate together. Sharing similar values, both wanted to create meaningful impact in some way. And leaning on Janey’s experience nursing in Africa, and their shared desire to support women and families, Pillars of Light was born.

And the truth is that even now more than 3.5 billion people around the world live without access to reliable electricity. Every 90 seconds, a child dies of waterborne illness and disease. And organizations like GivePower supply, clean, and safe water to those in developing countries. And it was the perfect choice for the give back model for Pillars of Light.

I asked Janey and Shannon to describe Pillars of Light in one sentence. They call it a luxury candle company with a lasting purpose where every purchase of their candles gives five years of access to clean drinking water to someone in need in a water scarce region around the world

[00:04:07] Janey Snelgrove: I’m Janey Snelgrove and I’m a founder of Pillars of Light co.

We’re both moms, we’re both wives. We both are entrepreneurs. We’ve been in entrepreneurship for over 20 years, each of us. And we’ve always been about helping people. And so when Shannon and I had been, over the years, getting to know each other and working we’ve often said, oh, we should do something right. We should do something outside of this. And it wasn’t until a conversation during the pandemic, when we’re both in lockdown that we thought maybe there’s something we can do because there’s a lot of fear. There’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s just a lot of angst in the world and we were feeling it and, we do a lot of personal development and, we’ve worked through a lot of things, a lot of mindset and we were feeling it and we were like, you know what, if we’re feeling it, I’m sure other people are feeling it. And what can we do to make a difference? Because right now we feel like we can’t do a lot, but what can we do?

[00:05:02] Shannon Fisher: I’m Shannon Fisher, the other half of Pillars of Light.  We had this conversation like a girlfriend conversation, does, we go from one thing to the next, to the next. And we were starting to set some goals and dreams and adjust what our future could look like moving out of this. We felt like we just had an opportunity to, to lean in and to ask some bigger questions. What if we could actually start something that made a significant change in the world? And I ought to be honest, I think it was the first time for me in, in a while. That I felt hope again. I had been quite sick prior, uh, for a couple of years. And it was the first time for me that I was just like, I felt, there was some light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And so we were excited to jump in and learn more but what we could do with.

[00:05:48] Jennifer Chua: Now it’s immediately evident when you look at your website or your social media, that creating an impact and environmental responsibility and just being a purpose-based business is so important to you. But what led you to see the world this way? Is there an event that stands out in your mind?

[00:06:05] Janey Snelgrove: I grew up on a farm and my parents brought in students to work for a couple months from all over the world. And so we had someone from Sri Lanka from south America. Oh gosh, just different places. And some other Canadians from other provinces would come to, and it started my quest as a child to think, oh, not everyone lives like we do in Ontario. Not everyone eats the same food. Not everyone has the same background, the same experience. And so it really started this quest for me of, oh, what’s it like in other parts of the world. Growing up. I think I was just really also taught that, when we have, we can share, there’s always enough to share. And so, I was fortunate to be able to go to Guyana when I graduated as a nurse and, volunteer for a month. And my husband, also was there and we experienced firsthand, living in another culture and we experience what it was like to live without electricity. And there was times when, like we had electricity, but there was times when the power would go out in the hospital or in the place where we stayed. And it really opened my eyes to how frustrating that is. You’re in the middle of a shower and the lights go out and it’s at night and you’re like, how do I get how to get around?

And you don’t have candles set up and you’re not prepared. And I realized this is a, this is something that like, people make a lot of people around the world, almost a billion people around the world deal with every day. And for me, it was just so eye-opening and so. As I’ve grown in entrepreneurship, one thing that I’ve always thought of is what can we do to help other people, like, it’s great to have products that can help people here in north America.

And when Shannon and I were creating our candles, we thought, first we have to love our customers and really let them know that what we’re putting into their home is luxury. It’s beautiful. They’re going to love to look at it, but then what’s in, it is actually supporting them, with a wellness based essential oils and healthy, a healthy product.

But then we also thought, okay, what can we do beyond that? And when we started to dig in and think, okay, this is an opportunity to do a one for one model. You know what what’s happening around the world with electricity. And when we discovered there is so many people living every night in darkness, we knew there was something we can do. And so we evolved from thinking about, okay, if we were to, how to candle company, what could we give as part of our one for one, the story evolved into water.

[00:08:35] Shannon Fisher: We realized really quick that the world needed more love and light in the world. Janey had a contact with friends that lived in Malawi and, it was that email back that I think that for me, just really affirmed that we had an opportunity. We had an in a, in a responsibility. I’ve never had a chance to travel to a third world country in the sense that same way as Janey has, but I I’ve often wanted to really impact those that are, extremely less fortunate. And, one of the things that we realized is that we necessarily didn’t also want to take our first world view of what we think people need. We really wanted to hear and learn what is actually required. Like we could go in with our own moody system, but what is actually needed. And we started just asking some questions.

And when we got this response back from this beautiful gentleman that lived in Malawi, there was just such a hook, right. There was like, okay, I just felt so morally obligated. So, from one conversation leads to the next we knew that, we could bring a product to market and, we went everywhere. We were like, okay, do we bring candles into people’s homes? And that could provide light, this one for one model. And then we, of course we quickly realized that’s probably not the safest measure to bring a candle into someone’s hut because we don’t want to ever cause a fire. So we were like, okay, let’s look at solar based products and, just getting off the ground and being startup. We just started to say, okay, what can we do next? What’s that next step? A friend that we had met actually started to help us develop our brand. And he just really believed in what we were doing, he introduced us to a company called gift power, the gift power foundation, I should say. And when we met gift power, we were like, oh my goodness, like they’re doing everything that we believe in and they’re on the ground. And every single dollar, like it was literally this moment, we were like, okay, they are, they’re doing it right. The money goes right to the ground. They already had a partnership covering all of their administrative costs. And, for them, they realize the same thing that we did that this, electrical poverty was so significant that they started lighting up schools. They started bringing light in through solar based energy, but then what they found next was even more, a significant problem was the lack of access to clean drinking water. Every two minutes a child dies of waterborne disease, as mothers, we were like, it’s a no brainer. Okay, how do we partner? And what do we do next?

[00:11:05] Jennifer Chua: People that are such passionate change makers, like the two of you, I’m sure that this whole idea of using something to create change didn’t just start when you were adults, even. I’m wondering if either one of you have moments in your childhood that you’re remembering that you look back on now and say, yo yes I was always primed to be a change.

[00:11:24] Shannon Fisher: I always wanted to make a really big, big impact in the world. I didn’t necessarily really know how that was going to be. I’m always like laugh and say in a small town girl living in a lonely world, but it was, I always just felt that I was called to do big work. I think we can do community-based work, which is fantastic locally. But there’s just been this calling in my heart forever, as long as I can remember to do something more significant. It just felt right when, sharing this opportunity with friends, some of my closest friends were like, this makes complete sense. This is exactly what you’ve always talked about. This is what you’ve always dreamt about and just really excited that you’re going for it.

[00:12:05] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me, it was more of the perspective of, from that young age, seeing that there are people around this world that have less than I do. And just realizing that we all have a place and as a woman, Knowing that there’s more than one way to make change and change can sometimes be just being the kind person on the school bus to the stranger, to the new kid.

Right. And I was often that kid that would like, welcome the new kid because I didn’t want them to feel like they were different than us. And so, I think as, as women, Shannon and I, as we’ve gotten to know each other, I think both of us, just from the bottom of our heart, we, we believe in people.

We just believe that each and every one of us have something inside of us and that we’re here for a purpose and a reason. And when I started to realize that, women just disproportionately are affected by lack of water, I thought, gosh, we’ve had this conversation. What would it be like to be a mom. Having to pull water every day for our kids. Like the amount of time that would require how that would limit your ability to just be with your kids, to make food, to teach even, to get a job.

Each and every one of us have an ability to do something. And I don’t think it has to be anything huge or spectacular. It’s just something. And so when Shannon and I set out for our Pillars of Light, obviously we wanted to create something amazing for people who received the candle. But we also wanted to inspire people to know that when you buy this, you are doing something, you are helping someone in this farther place. Probably another mom, just like you or another student received water that they currently aren’t receiving. And so. to create something where people could join us in community because really community is what drives any kind of change. It’s not one person, it’s a community.

And so Pillars of Light is really an opportunity for people to come together and why, whether they purchase the candle for themselves, or they purchase it for somebody else that might be going through a challenging time. We can know that together, we really are making a difference. And that’s why, one of the right away, we were like, together, we are killers of light because it’s not just Shannon and I it’s going to take a whole village.

[00:14:26] Jennifer Chua: What was that conversation like when you decided that you want to work together? You’ve decided that maybe you have an idea for how you can create impact. How did that conversation go between the two of you?

[00:14:35] Shannon Fisher: Janey and just chatted for years and I often seek her as a confidant and just a really great friend. And I think because of the personal development work we’ve done throughout the years, we were really able to quickly realize that we both had different strengths in different buckets. There was immediate trust there right away, uh, that, we’ve gone through hard times, uh, together we’ve had to do hard work together.

We’ve had to, really rally at times and, in any partnership it’s, it’s not always, roses and there’s going to be hard conversations. We’re both faith-based women. And we just said, Hey, if it’s going to be it’s up to it’s up to him. And let’s just kind of continue to lean in. It’s been the most beautiful work that I’ve done in my career up to this point. So I think one conversation just has led to the next, to be honest.

[00:15:28] Janey Snelgrove: Yeah, we’re dreamers. Right. But we’re also doers. And so, we, when in our initial conversations it was like, okay, well, if we’re going to do this because a, we have other businesses, we have fizzy families, this better be something good. Like we’re not just in it just to touch the waters, we’re in it to like dive in and see that ripple. And so we knew that our partnership was going to be really important. I sometimes we have these doubts that we’re like, what are we doing? How is this going to work? Like, who are we? We’ve never been in the candle industry before. We’ve never been in manufacturing. These are all big jumps. They’re not just little baby steps. It’s like a giant leap. But we’ve always come back to, we’re in this together, we’re problem solvers.

And most importantly, it’s going to take a team. And so we’ve been able to put amazing people around us to help us to see our mission. And we keep grounded in, what, if we hit our goal of impacting a million people, fantastic. But if we only help one person have water for five years, freaking fantastic.

When we have those days of like, what are we doing? We boil it down to, okay, what’s the big picture. And the big picture is helping people. And so, one day at a time, that’s all we can do one day at a time.

[00:16:40] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to look into the one for one model, what other avenues for giving back were you exploring?

[00:16:46] Shannon Fisher: When we first started we were just looking at some different models and, Janey had got a great pair of Bomba socks for Christmas. And so she was explaining this to me and, I’ve always been very intrigued in the one for one model and just even socially responsible businesses. and so again, like we, when we decided to do this, it was like, okay, we’re just not going to be a typical candle company. So we wanted to redefine this industry. We also wanted to redefine, women partnership in business. And so we had a couple of key goals. And so we looked at the one for one, you need to be honest.

At first we were like, let’s, let’s just see what’s available. And we thought, well, maybe we would create that one for one. And we would be able to do both sides. And when we were just really focused initially on our own product innovation, like what were we going to actually, what we’re going to give to our customers in order to create the one for one when we met with gift powder, we looked at a few other organizations.

But that was actually first conversation we actually had with the company. And it just felt right. It just checked all the boxes. So you didn’t really have to go into any further discovery. At this point, of course, knowing that there we’ll probably have other partnerships along the way, uh, this just kind of met everything that we were looking for at the moment.

[00:17:54] Janey Snelgrove: We wanted it simple. Because we know that people’s attention is so short and there’s so many different, great products out there, but we wanted it to be able to say, Hey, if you take the time to buy this one candle for yourself for someone else, here’s what it equals. Looking at, Bombus looking at, Tom’s looking at some of the other companies out there that have the one for one, we really tried to study. What, why have they done well? And it’s because it’s simple. You by one candle, you give five years of drinking water, 1,825 days of clean drinking water with this one luxury candle.

So for us, we thought let’s follow what has worked with some other companies and see if we can just build on upon it and grow from there. And like Shannon said, give power’s our first partnership, but as we grow, we’re open to looking at other ways that we can have impact, but we know the power of solar energy and we know the power of water.

When we were chatting about what was going on in the world and distress, people were under in the fear, the uncertainty, the loneliness the loss, like so many people have lost jobs. They’ve lost family members. They’ve lost opportunities to have a wedding and to celebrate they’ve lost holidays for the last two years. There’s been so much change and uncertainty that we really started look at okay. Fear is to darkness what love is to light. And so when we decided to start this candle company, we thought there’s so many parallels that if people could really dig in, that these candles are actually reminders, that light is greater than the darkness that love casts out all fear. The impact that we wanted to have obviously was globally with our gift back. But locally, when someone purchased their candle, we want them to just see the power and the reminder that sometimes we all need a reminder of the love and the light inside of us, that we can make a difference. We want it to have that global impact, but first we want it to have that local impact with our customer who was able to really just get this beautiful candle, this beautiful curated scent and be reminded of the power of love and the power of light that they have within them.

[00:20:12] Jennifer Chua: When we spoke earlier, we spoke about mental health being something that is important to both of you as well. And I was wondering how Pillars of Light either affects mental health now, or if you have any plans going forward to do impact in that area. I was just wondering about the whole mental health piece of this brand?

[00:20:33] Shannon Fisher: Great question, Jennifer, Janey and I were actually chatting and this has come up quite a few times for us is. I think prior to the pandemic, people were struggling. We live really busy lives. People sometimes haven’t been managing their life as much as they, I think they would like to and then the pandemic hit. And what we do know is, the next kind of pandemic, so to speak is mental health. And I do a lot of work in this area. And I’ve seen a lot of people continue to struggle. And it’s one of those things do we see ourselves taking a, uh, an opportunity here potentially. But what we do know is we’ve had some just extraordinary feedback that people are lighting this candle, and it’s helping them. It’s helping them with their mental clarity. It’s helping them recognize that even when I in, maybe, uh, having a rough day or a dark day, I can look at that candle and it’s reminding me of that inner light.

And that was really important to Jamie and I, because we can often get caught up in the weeds and we can often get caught up in our own darkness and sometimes just letting that candle and just watching it. Is, is that opportunity to be reminded that the light that’s within us and the other part is I don’t have to extinguish my light in order to light up Janey. Like I get to keep my light on while I also could like her candle. And that was another big part of our movement is to remind people that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And in the simplest form, if we can make life really complicated, as we all know, but if we lean into love and we lean into light there’s going to be brighter days ahead. And we really wanted to help people just to be reminded of that and that there’s people there in the world that to care for them. And again, through community that things, things can be okay.

[00:22:32] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to actually look at making candles and manufacturing candles, did you find anything surprising?

[00:22:40] Janey Snelgrove: It’s interesting when we were first talking about it was right in the middle of the pandemic, the one of the lockdowns, and we were like, oh, let’s create a new hobby candles. And we soon realized that candle making is an art and a science. And we spent hours like hours. Our kids were involved. Our husbands were involved. Our husbands were so happy when we decided that we are not makers. Our gift is not making. Our gift is sharing stories and, and opening and helping businesses grow. Oh boy, our friends, they sniffed some smelly candles and we had a lot of funny laughs, hats off to the makers out there who have really understood the science and the art of it. And, and one thing that was important to us was using quality ingredients and it’s expensive. Using quality ingredients. But you can see the difference in the quality of the ingredients, how it affects the burn, the smell, like just the whole thing.

So we found a Canadian manufacturing partner that has been building candles for over 25 years. They are very, value-based very, very socially responsible. And as soon as we met them, went to their facility, got to meet the owner of the family. We knew here was another partner that was in alignment with us and we could trust them. We knew what they were creating and we’re really excited that they have come on board with us because we’ve been able to create two beautiful scents and more to come.

[00:24:18] Shannon Fisher: I just giggle from the first part. Then we started this and I still remember Janey and I sitting down at the table going okay, like, this is all well and good, but how are we, going back to the vision. It’s going to take so much longer for us to create this impact if we’re trying to pour candles and do all these other pieces. And so we knew that if we wanted to really make the impact, like Janey mentioned is that we had to find the right partner. To partner with people who have experience and so much experience, just made, made that transition a no brainer for us.

[00:24:52] Jennifer Chua: Have you discovered any costs associated with creating something like a candle that you might just pick up in any store, like in terms of environmental impact or impact on your health? Is there anything about candles that we need to be mindful of?

[00:25:04] Shannon Fisher: We went through like a really steep learning curve. And over the last couple of years, of course heard soy candles, soy-based candles were definitely the better way to go. I’ve been a candle connoisseur for many years. It’s probably my most favorite gift to give is to give a candle. And when we started to do some research into the wax. I was kind of shocked because yes, you can see a candle in our community for a couple of bucks to we found some candles that were priced, small atriums candle price at $125.

And we’re like, whoa, what is the difference here? And what we started to see things like petroleum based products even some of the blends, you don’t necessarily know if that’s a petroleum blend or not. And unfortunately petroleum-based candles are actually quite toxic to our health. So that was the one thing was making sure we found wax that was very safe for our customers. Both being in wellness is really, really important. The second thing was then finding a scent and Janey and I we scratched our heads on this one for, I felt like weeks, trying to figure it out and really understand what is that scent that people love.

And then what is the scent that also gives people headaches? I’ve got great girlfriends that were like, oh, I struggled buying candles because they burned them for a few minutes and I ended up with a wicked headache and I blow it out. And what we started to see again is that there can be often more phthalate in some of those products. They’re more synthetic. And what we realize is, again, is finding natural based aromas that were phthalate free, essential oil base. Initially we’re like we only want essential oils. But we quickly realized that that is all well and good, but not always easy in a candle because the fact that they need some other stabilizers, but we can use other and natural aromas and then the products that were phthalate free.

That was the second pillar. And then the third pillar, if you can believe it or not, the little wick that goes in those candles, often sometimes have lead in the, can you believe it lead in wicks. And so again, things we don’t want burning things I definitely do not want around my kids or, we have a, literally a funny farm Jeanie has a beautiful dog as well. And so we wanted to make sure, again, really high quality 100% soy base. That was what we were learning was probably going to be the best for our burn time, making sure that scent was sophisticated and strictly healthy and that we had lead free wicks. We feel confident, making sure people buy our product that they’re, we’re not putting their health in jeopardy.

[00:27:43] Jennifer Chua: As someone in the consumer product space. And obviously through this podcast, in this project and just meeting with impact business owners, I’ve learned a lot about lead and phthalates and how they are in an astonishing amount of products that we have in levels that are really not safe. I’m just wondering if you’ve noticed in this period of time, if consumers are valuing that information yet, or if it’s resonated with. What do you think is going on in terms of consumer product behavior?

[00:28:17] Janey Snelgrove: I think it’s starting. I think it’s just starting. So it was interesting in our initial research and just talking to different friends and people, we would talk about is soy base important to you? And they’re like, no. And I’m like, oh, tell me more about that. And , they didn’t even know. They didn’t know there was a difference. They didn’t know what a candle was made of and why soy was better. So I think that it’s growing, the movement is growing for having natural eco-friendly products. But I still think we’ve got a way to go. So that’s partly why, our job is also to educate.

[00:28:54] Jennifer Chua: You’ve touched on that you were going to your friends and you were asking them questions. You were getting your husbands involved. You were really talking to other people in the wellness community, but when was the moment that you really realized that this could work or that people would be interested in the idea of, of your business?

[00:29:09] Janey Snelgrove: We did a lot of research and we were like, okay, what will people buy candles? Like is candles even a thing. And when we started to look at the research 75% of women over 25 is really the target because they’re the ones that buy candles. And then we looked at the buying behaviors of that. And I can’t remember the stat off the top of my head, but a high percentage of people are now looking to see, is this company socially responsible what are their values? And they will choose to purchase from a company that has values and alignment. Just alone on the research, we knew that, okay, people’s buying behaviors are supporting this type of business

[00:29:49] Shannon Fisher: People even over the last little bit are looking for companies that what Janey mentioned, we kind of said that we were purpose and then people and then profit. So it wasn’t going to be the other way around. We had to have our purpose had, have our big, why we were doing this. We know it’s going to take incredible people both impacting people and of course, people to purchase. And, and then after that, if we kept those two things, as our priority profits will happen. And I would say, there’s been moments when we were like, is this going to work? And we went into a pre-launch and we launched our presale because we dealing with some supply chain things and all the stuff in the pandemic, they were like, okay, you never want a week crazy for starting a business in the middle of a pandemic where, there’s going to be, get things shipped.

And then we’re like, okay, let’s go into presale. And we ran an event and then we had people on there that registered. It will always be a moment kind of marked in my memory of when people started to order. And I was like, okay, we’ve got proof of concept. People want this. And so now it’s just up to us to increase that discoverability and just let people know that we’re here.

[00:31:00] Jennifer Chua: I wonder how that impacted some of the decisions that you’ve made, or if you have any learnings from that really unique experience of starting a business in the last two years?

[00:31:10] Janey Snelgrove: I think entrepreneurs sometimes have a dream and then they figure it out after. Right. And we just know as entrepreneurs, problem solving is right up there on your to-do list. Like curve balls come at, you left right and center. So I think part of it was we went into this with an attitude. Okay, this is a new gig for us. This is something new and we know we’re going to need to grow, and we know we’re going to need to have advisors. And we also are going to probably expect some challenges that being said, building in a pandemic was way more challenging than I even anticipated, partly because we’ve also never been in the manufacturing industry ourselves in terms of understanding supply chain delivery, demand costs.

And so firsthand, we got to see how, quoted on one thing and then a couple of weeks later. Oh no, no, no. We got, we’ve got to go up because of X, Y, and Z factor. And so, That was one thing. And then, delays, we had we’ve created a custom luxury box and it’s still not in our hands.

And we thought it was going to be ready for our launch in November. And so we had to pivot to find another box to just, do something as quickly as possible while still holding to our brand commitment of luxury. And so we had some, late night calls some times of like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do?

Are we going to make it, and so thankfully some advisers around us to just, calm us down a little bit, take us off the ledge and to remember that, okay, there’s always a solution. We just have to dig in to try and find it. So I have much more appreciation for product based company.

And for the industry as a whole, just really trying to deliver on their promises. And when you create, when you communicate to your customer, you want to stand behind that, but sometimes things out of your control come into play, and then you have to go back and say, actually, now we have to try to do this.

And so just really hoping to ask for grace, from people and also to extend grace to people we’re working with, who have had their timelines changed. And so, it has been a huge, it has been a huge learning for us. That’s for sure. But it’s been good. It’s been.

[00:33:41] Shannon Fisher: We didn’t really know anything different. We haven’t brought another product like this to market before. And so yes, we, I think have been faced with all our other challenges first year speaking to other advisors and, people we know in business that just kind of, they’re like good on you, girls for, doing this because you probably could have been maybe easier times for sure.

But at the same point, what we both know is is that we can do hard things and, as long as you’re willing to kind of take a deep breath and, calm your mind for a moment, look at some other solutions around us. We’re like, okay, we can still hold true to what we wanted. who we are. And we can still provide this great quality product. And so it has been such a, an exercise, like true exercise of, leaning in having great faith and honestly trusting the process. Like there’s we can talk about that, but when you’re actually living it, it’s totally different.

[00:34:37] Jennifer Chua: Are there any other unique challenges to operating a purpose first business that we don’t usually think about? Are people going into business or not thinking about.

[00:34:47] Janey Snelgrove: I think so. And we’re learning as we go through, right? This is all new for us, when you price your product, you have to read like every other entrepreneur understands their revenue and their profit. But for us, it’s like, okay, we have made a commitment with the amount that we are going to give, it’s also the purpose behind why we’re doing what we’re doing. And so we want to make sure that we can follow through and really have an impact. And so there is a balance of figuring out, financially. Making sure that your company is profitable so that you can have as much impact as you want to have.

We have to find a way to be profitable so that we can give. And that has been, I think, a learning curve as well, but also it’s our commitment. Like, that’s why we’re doing this. It’s not something that every entrepreneur has to deal with because we’re making our commitment upfront and other companies will often say, oh, sure, I’ll give out of my.

Right. And once they know they profits, then they give, and we’re like, oh, we’re committing to this. Whether we sell a candle or not, if we just sell one candle, this is what we’re doing. But there’s obviously costs. And so, I think that is the difference is that we’re making our commitment upfront where a lot of other companies make their commitment after they’ve sold. And that definitely makes it a little more challenging, but it also shows where our commitment is.

Shannon and I are very much believers in the ability of women when they put their minds to something. But I think one of the challenges that we have come firsthand to is financing for women startup businesses. And how is that easy? Thankfully we’ve been able to, start this up with our own equity. And when I went in, I had this assumption, oh yeah. The bank’s going to give us some money. I ask it to be easy. Oh yeah, we’ll get it. And wow. They don’t want to help you until you have two years of proof that it’s working. I guess what I’m trying to say is I want to encourage the women who are thinking of starting something that there’s always a way, but to expect there are challenges as a woman receiving financing.

[00:37:07] Shannon Fisher: There was this moment along our road where we were like, okay, like we’ve been in business. We have other businesses. We are established women in business. This should be easy. Right. And when we went down that road and started knocking on doors, it was a wake-up call for us to be like, whoa, whoa, what? No? Like what do you mean? And we had some beautiful feedback from people like, wow, this is like the most extensive business plan we’ve seen. And we’re like, oh, okay. Like giving us a pat on the back. And so we had done our due diligence. We had done the work and I think there’s a lot of times women go into business, we are responsible, we do our work. We dig in, we find out, especially if this is not something that you want to just kick the can at. Right. We wanted to go big on this project and it was frustrating. I remember having that moment going, okay, like, how is this going to happen? And we just, we just figured it out. And I think to that point is you just have to continue to lean in, start asking bigger questions. And then just allowing one door to open to the next and, thank heavens we’ve been able to strap this. I think here in Canada, I had a belief that this would be easy for women, but we started looking through different grants, janey and I are both over 40. Even that annoyed me, I was like, why is it only for women under 40 can get money? We’ve just saw lots of holes that are still are still within the business sector when it comes to funding that Just need to be closed. And I think to Janey’s point that if we can start to have more of these conversations, there are incredible people in the world that I think if they know how they can also solve a problem, we can really help more businesses come into marketplace of people who want to do really, really big and great. They just need some great people around them to help them see that vision to, to the end. When we were starting through the middle of the pandemic, so many people have had to cut back, and not having the same funding, not having the same opportunity to network . And so now, just even reflecting upon that, we put ourselves in a position where we just haven’t been able to meet up with as many people as we’d like to. But there’s always great opportunities as we continue to move forward.

[00:39:19] Jennifer Chua: And what about the children that you are impacting through your work and giving clean water to in Africa? How about them? Are you hopeful for their future?

[00:39:31] Shannon Fisher: Oh, my goodness. Beyond, beyond hopeful. Janey and I had these moments where we just sit and think about them and we can’t wait for the day that we can actually get over there and do a project. But we just know, even as mothers, like, if you can give your child something with like clean water, it’s such a necessity, just what that gives to someone to, to know that that child could have a brighter life. It just, it just means a lot, like it’s it’s work that I don’t know. I’m gonna get too emotional.

[00:40:11] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me too, it is. And we talked about this as being moms. I don’t even have any idea what it’s like being a mom where you have to go get water and thinking, oh gosh, what if it’s dirty? Right. Or seeing your child becomes sick. And so I think Shannon and I think about the comfort a mother would have knowing that, okay, this child has access to clean water for five years.

Right? Like, think about that, what that would do to take that level of stress off of you. In those hard days that we have, we have to remember, we’re not selling candles. We are helping people. And that’s what we have to keep our eye on. And so, I mean, we, it’s so funny as moms and as women, we have some good doozy cries it’s because we realize that what we have the opportunity to do can really make a difference.

And as an entrepreneur, when this becomes your baby You just want to make sure it’s a baby that you’re going to spend a lot of time on it is going to have an impact in a way that nothing else can. It’s just remembering. It’s just like, we’re asking our customers to remember the power of love and light within them. We also have to be reminded of, of, the power that, that we can have to help change someone’s life that we may never even get to meet. We probably will never get to meet, but just knowing that there is an opportunity to do something at the end of the day, when you’ve worked all day, it feels really good.

[00:41:47] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon, and how they’re giving love through light with a one for one approach, visit Pillars of Light.co. Looking for that perfect gift. Their give back model means that your purchase gives access to five years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on instagram@pillars_of_light.co.

Monique Chan from Bruized takes scraps destined for the compost bin and creates delicious treats. In this episode, we learn how time spent in restaurant prep kitchens led Monique to look at food waste differently. And explore the economic and environmental costs of what gets thrown away. We discover how she sources imperfect ingredients that would otherwise be discarded from local groceries and farmer’s market vendors. And upcycles these and to healthy plant-based snacks. We chat about how she feels about food insecurity and the need for systematic change. What shifts do we need to take to deal with waste, how she plans to grow her business with local hubs over distribution. And how she’s hopeful that others will join in to find innovative ways to make our food systems more sustainable.

If you want to learn more about Monique and how she’s embracing imperfect to make feel-good food for the planet and the people around us or order some of her delicious pulp crunch visit bruized.com. You can follow along with Monique on her mission to upcycle imperfect produce into wholesome eats on Instagram at @bruizedco

Links from this episode

• Bruized

• UNEP Food Waste Index Report 2021

• Where are grocers in the war on food waste? Canadian Grocer

• Scrappy Cooking ‘Tok

Episode Transcript

[00:02:19] Jennifer Chua: This may or may not come as a surprise, but a lot of food is wasted worldwide each year. 17% of the food produced in 2021 was wasted globally. That’s 931 million tons. The United Nations Environment Program Food Waste Index Report 2021 suggests that the worst offenders are consumers with 61% of the waste happening at home. It’s easy to envision that. You make the Tik TOK salad. It was too much to eat. And after a couple of meals, you throw the rest in the green bin along with the broccoli stems or that forgotten spring mix in the back of the fridge. 26% comes from food service, and we’ll be talking about how all that waste comes to be in just a bit. 13% comes from retail and grocery, but there is a misconception here. You may immediately think spoiled or rotting food is all that is tossed, but plenty of it is still edible.

An article in Canadian grocer. Which I’m putting in the show notes, suggests that this waste takes a huge toll on the environment. Produce rotting in landfills releases methane of course, but wasted food also means wasted resources. Water, energy, and the greenhouse gas emissions that occur along the supply chain. From production to packaging shipping and then disposal. This article is really worth a read. It also highlights that we waste enough energy to power 274 million homes. Which personally I found a little surprising.

[00:04:36] Jennifer Chua: Healthy, delicious, and fully sustainable meals can be created upcycled from food that would otherwise go to waste. Organizations along the food chain are tackling food loss and waste or making efforts to do so, by procuring ingredients, not fit for human consumption. Or just not fit for sale. By using things like unused fruits and vegetables to create new products, innovators are finding ways along the supply chain to minimize food waste and create positive environmental impact.

Innovators like Monique Chan.

[00:05:06] Monique Chan: My name’s Monique Chan and I’m the founder of Bruized and Bruized is a women-run startup from Toronto. All about upcycling imperfect ingredients that are discarded across our supply chain and creating healthy plant-based snacks from them.

[00:05:21] Jennifer Chua: Monique studied international development and nutrition with a focus on food waste in her last year at the University of Guelph. And in that time, she had also fallen into a social circle that hosted vegan meetups and bonded over plant-based potlucks. This period of her life left her profoundly changed. And this newfound knowledge sparked inspiration to create a change in the current food industry. With her complimenting passions of plant-based cooking, sustainability and health, Monique envisioned a business and community that could highlight all of these topics and thus Bruized was born.

[00:05:55] Monique Chan: Our main product is called pulp crunch and it’s a high fibre granola cluster that is made with a base of organic juice pulp rescue from a local Juicery. And we take this juice pulp. That’s usually just thrown in a composter or ends up in a landfill and we take all those nutrients and fibre to create a really wholesome snack that’s filling but light at the same time. We sweeten it naturally with ripe bananas we get from retail stores and also feature imperfect apple chunks in our original flavour from a local farmer. And then that’s all dehydrated with oats, coconut and sunflower seeds. So it’s all. Gluten-free nut-free vegan. And it’s really filling and fueling for your day.

Before Bruized, I was mainly trying to figure out my life. I still am. I think everyone goes through that. Fresh out of university and. Finding like part-time jobs. I ended up working a lot more with food as a line cook in restaurants and, I really had a passion for food and cooking and I, I could see my future somewhere in that industry. From learning more about food waste and then seeing the, the waste in my everyday jobs, I made that connection that I wanted to create something that helped to solve this problem.

[00:07:16] Jennifer Chua: Do you remember when you first became interested in sustainability? Like, is there a moment that stands out in your mind?

[00:07:23] Monique Chan: Right when I entered University. I, I decided to take the international developments course because I still wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, but I knew I just had this inner nature to help other people. And I saw myself as an environmentalist and was interested in just caring for our earth. And then I didn’t notice that a lot of the things in my lifestyle didn’t line up with those beliefs. So. I think a key point in my life was when I was literally hauling up plastic water bottles up to my dorm room because they didn’t have like filtered water. There would always be this huge flight of stairs up to my room and I’d just haul like these huge, my dad would help me and it was just something I was so used to at home, drinking plastic water, bottles. And then a lot of my friends that I made in my first year were like super environmentalists. And they were like, like, why don’t you just get a Brita filter or something just to reduce your waste. And they would literally like try to hide my plastic water bottles. And then it was just one day that I realized I was like, yeah, that really doesn’t make sense.

And I need to let go of this ego that like, just because I’ve been doing this for, majority of my life doesn’t make it okay, or good for the environment. So I made that switch. I started eating more plant-based started with being pescatarian and eventually became vegan mid university. And yeah, after that, I just was really interested in cooking and started that plant-based journey from there. Posting more on Instagram and sharing my, my journey with other people.

[00:08:50] Jennifer Chua: Can you tell me a little bit of the story of coming up with this idea and then moving it forward into an actual business?

[00:08:56] Monique Chan: So it was actually in the course where I was studying food waste, where we had to think of a service or a business idea that helped to target food waste. And that was the main project of this semester. So as I was thinking of this, I was at the time really interested in cooking. And also working as a line cook. Why not merge those two passions together and create like a snack bar of some sort that utilizes my skill to be innovative with new ingredients, but also helps the social problem of reducing food waste. So I just kind of merged those two together. I didn’t really have any product ideas at the time.

It was literally just a vague idea that I would work on it and would pitch to my teachers at the end of the semester. over some years, like, I started actually doing recipe testing, connecting with local retailers and farmers to get to understand the problem more on an individual level. And then from there grew into what it is today.

[00:09:53] Jennifer Chua: now I spent a period of my life being a line cook as well. So I do understand kind of the relationship that you’d have with waste, but can you explain a little bit more about how that period of working in restaurant kitchens maybe influenced how you see food waste?

[00:10:11] Monique Chan: During my time working in a restaurant, main places that I saw waste being created was, mainly due to no systems being in place. So if I was working on the line and someone ordered no red onions in their meal, and I accidentally added in made a mistake and added red onions, it would be so busy that people would usually just throw that meal out. But I’d be that person just like hoarding all of the mistakes underneath the fridge and being like, oh, I’ll eat that for lunch later. Or I’m like, I’ll, I’ll bring that home. And people would be frustrated. They’d be like, who left this? burrito sitting here from like 9:00 AM. Do you know? So, uh, I saw a lot of food waste happening on the line.

And then also during just prep. I would observe a lot of employees just, I guess not being taught an efficient way of reducing waste. So I remember distinctly like this one guy would always be the guy in charge of cutting the sweet potatoes to prep sweet potato fries. And he would literally get boxes of sweet potatoes, cut around them to make them cube so they fit perfectly in the cutter and throw everything in the garbage bin. Almost half my height, full of just sweet potato sides just because it’s, it was faster doing it, that he was doing this really fast. And I was so tempted to just throw that big bag and haul it home and like make something out of it.

And it was surprising to me because this restaurant specifically, lot of the production for the sauces were done in a different facility. So every day they would pick up, drop off sauces for the day and then the truck would go back empty and they kind of already started giving the middles of onions from onion rings to the truck, so they could use it for soups and things. And I was so surprised that they didn’t implement this in other produce. So it was like the system was in place. There was just a lack of education, a lack of direction and support with reducing waste and something else I noticed too, because I was the one to make sure all the produce came in and, and check everything. I noticed how much things were costing. So a box of sweet potatoes was 40 bucks. If the guy’s cutting her off around half a sweet potato, he’s wasting $20 a box. We get around three to five boxes on average. So, four boxes and I did the calculations that came up to around $14,000 of just waste from sweet potatoes from that one location. I think when a, you make that monetary connection too, if you multiply that by how many restaurants you have, it’s quite a large amount of money being wasted, resources, energy, labor. I think all of that could have been avoided if there’s better systems in place and more education from the beginning for the employees.

So these are a lot of things that just stuck out to me. We even had a juice bar in the front, so there was a lot of opportunity to even just, bring the kale stems to the front, to put in the juice. Different things like that. I think there was just a lack of priority for those kinds of projects. That’s kind of where my frustration, but like where my drive started by just seeing something like happening and no one really doing anything about it. And then really wanting to see a change.

[00:13:29] Jennifer Chua: Are there any other experiences that shaped how you feel about natural living and environmental responsibility? Like, is there an event that shaped how you see the world this way?

[00:13:41] Monique Chan: I think it’s just an accumulation of a lot of different experiences. I think my influence is mostly from seeing other everyday people doing their best to reduce their waste. Cause I think the most powerful way we can combat these issues is to first reflect on ourselves and see what we as individuals can do.

So I was very influenced by my sustainable friends in university who were like eating plant-based and going to all these like climate event talks and plant-based events and, that it was really inspiring in itself because I got to learn more about how this has an impact and what else I can do as an individual to reduce that. So I got more interested in also trying to be more zero waste and, and how our plastic waste has an impact on the environment, uh, and where it goes at the end of the day. So how to minimize that and sharing and the creative process with other people. I loved to host dinner parties and attend parties when I was in university. And it was just a great way to challenge everyone, to make a dish and be able to share it at the end of the day over the table. I think those experiences were just really inspiring and showed me that like, you really don’t have to sacrifice anything like that to, in order to live a sustainable life.

[00:14:55] Jennifer Chua: So I’d like to chat more about what’s going on with our food what’s going on within our current food system. Like, what is it that the general public isn’t really aware of?

[00:15:04] Monique Chan: So it’s quite a tucked under the rug kind of issue. it’s also very, multi-faceted where there’s always waste at different levels of the food system so whether it be on the farms, restaurants like I described and also in grocery stores. So there’s varying levels to it. It’s very, it’s not like a one solution fits all kind of problem.

What I came to discover is that 58% of all food that is produced is either lost or wasted. And with that also comes wasted resources, water, energy, transportation, land, labor, that’s put into that food. So I kind of like to look at it as, an example, like an apple, not just being an apple, being wasted as like the product itself, but also all of the resources that are encapsulated in that apple that allowed it to reach where it was. And for it to just be thrown out at the end of its life cycle is a huge impact on our environment. When you look at all those, factors that create where it is today. So, yeah, it’s a huge problem. I think we see it more in Western countries like Canada and north America in general. And I really believe we have the resources to, to reduce this waste. And it’s just about educating people on why it’s important and how it affects them and what we can do to reduce that.

[00:16:31] Jennifer Chua: 58%. Sounds like a lot. I’m just wondering why do you think that businesses haven’t taken that next step? Like what do you think the barrier is?

[00:16:39] Monique Chan: I think it’s just the lack of education, to be honest, you know, like if you don’t know what you don’t know, like you can’t really do anything about it. And if people aren’t aware, like when I was doing those calculations for the, just the sweet potatoes alone. When people see it in a different form, like in a money value.

I think people will be more receptive to making changes in their businesses, but when they just see it as like a normal, everyday, cost of waste, um, they just think it’s normal and then it’s normalized for everyone. And no one’s really doing anything about it. So I think it all starts with, it’s just rooted in the education. Of people and, and if they don’t know why it’s a problem and how it affects their business and how it can improve their business, if they actually implement something to help reduce waste, then they’re not really going to take that action to, to fix it.

[00:17:31] Jennifer Chua: But then there’s people that come along that are upcycling food waste like yourself and, and there’s products being created like yours at Bruized. How does all of this contribute to food insecurity? Like I know that food insecurity is hugely top of mind for us. A lot of people are really struggling after the last couple of years as well. How do you think that upcyclers can help contribute to alleviating food insecurity or even the climate crisis? Like why is this so important?

[00:17:58] Monique Chan: That’s a tricky question. I, for me, personally, on a business level, I’d love for us to be at a point where we can make our products more accessible. Creating a closed-loop system of reducing food waste, but also being able to give that food back to people, and to share that with a larger audience. But I guess yeah, ways that you can help reduce food insecurity is just, you know, understanding the problem more. I know a lot of more community fridges are opening up. Our local communities it’s open to anyone who needs it. So even making donations there are grocery runs, like getting together with your friends, baking, cooking meals together and sharing it with non-profit organizations I think is definitely a way to start more locally. But yeah, food insecurity is kind of a big one to tackle and I think you really just got to start more locally. And see how you can create that ripple effect. Once you notice what the problem is in your, in your own community,

[00:18:59] Jennifer Chua: And when you begin to look into creating your products, did you find anything surprising?

[00:19:04] Monique Chan: I didn’t really think that we would have access to, uh, as much product as we, we usually get. Usually what we pick up for our supplies is only a percentage of how much is usually thrown out and wasted. So we’re doing our best as a small business, but it was definitely surprising to realize like, wow, It’s definitely more than enough to go around and there’s opportunity for other businesses to take part in using upcycled ingredients and for this to become more of a mainstream supply of ingredients. And something else I noticed too, was just. Also, I mean, it was kind of expected, but not having consistency of certain ingredients and, and being very flexible in how I created products to ensure that we could have them on a consistent basis and not be short on any products.

[00:19:57] Jennifer Chua: And these relationships that you have with grocery and Juicery that are giving you these less than perfect or by-product really. How did that relationship start? Like did you just go into the grocery store and asked to speak to the manager? And I’m just wondering how you managed to get these other businesses on board.

[00:20:16] Monique Chan: It was pretty much like, cold calling and also I think what was more effective for us was actually going into stores and being. Where’s your manager. Like, I want to discuss some things because a lot of people don’t reply to their emails and. I think it was most effective to just talk to people in person and, and show them what we do as a business and what we’re passionate about and how they can be a part of that. lot of businesses, if w if we just make it easy for them, say we’ll pick up everything, we’ll just message you when we’re picking it up, we’ll provide the, buckets or like whatever resources or materials you need. As long as we made it easy for them. willing to do it. And especially if it was something that was just going to be wasted, like, retail stores that had ripe bananas, a lot of the times they just don’t have time to, or any use for those.

They would end up on discount racks. And if it was a large amount, like it usually wouldn’t sell, it would end up being thrown out. So we kind of help them move a lot of their products. So they would have more space to bring in a new produce and supply. So it was like a win-win like they get to, I guess, move product. We pay a discounted price for it as well. It’s just a, it’s a good exchange and they know that they’re helping to reduce their own food waste. So I guess it’s also a personal win for them.

[00:21:34] Jennifer Chua: Something that’s just occurred to me is I follow some of those dumpster diver people on Tik TOK. I don’t know if you’ve seen those. Have you seen these videos?

[00:21:42] Monique Chan: No, I haven’t, I have dumpster-dived in my, in my lifetime. So I do know what it’ll look like.

[00:21:48] Jennifer Chua: Particularly the ones I’m following based in large urban centers. And I think New York city is one of them and they’re going to, think of a really large grocery store and they’re going in the back and they’re finding all of these perfectly good foods that are maybe close to their sell by date, but not expired by any means. Do you have any comments about those kind of systems? Like the sell by dates, the expiry dates. How can we create change there?

[00:22:17] Monique Chan: That’s definitely a tricky one because I know it is, you know, I’m sure there’s a lot of regulations with who food expiry dates and what you’re allowed to say, and it’s just a liability issue. So it is tricky. I think. What we can do on our part is just to educate people that when it says best before, that’s not necessarily like the day it’s going to go all moldy or, or go bad, I think it’s to teach people how to use their senses and use their own judgment to be like, okay, like it says best before this day, but you know, I opened it on this day and like kind of getting an understanding. Smelling it, I think is the first step. And it’s just using your best judgment and not. Kind of using that specific data as a guideline of what to throw out and what not to throw out. I don’t know if there’s a lot we can do about the regulations around necessarily best before dates and expiring dates. Especially if it’s something that’s like yogurt or something that’s cultured.

In terms of dry goods or like crackers or anything like that really. Just use your own judgment, smell it. And if it smells fine, most of the time it’s usually okay. And our bodies are very resilient, so it’ll take a lot to really do some damage. So I think, yeah, just use your best judgment. And, and I think that’s where we can start.

[00:23:35] Jennifer Chua: Are there any other choices that you’ve made with Bruized in order to make sure that your goods are good for the planet as well?

[00:23:41] Monique Chan: One thing specifically that we do is we try to source as locally as possible before we were kind of. When we first started, we were trying to just, source things from big grocery stores because they had so much waste that we actually saw. But then, after, being more in the farmer’s market space, we realized why not use this as an avenue to also support our local farmers, our own community, and like make it a food full circle on a small scale and be able to first target the problems on our local lands versus tackling like these mass production facilities that are imported from the USA.

That’s also an issue, but I think we want to focus more on just being local to start with also just coordinating our pickups to be at farmer’s market. So we vend at farmer’s markets mostly and, For that to be a pickup spot helps to reduce our carbon emissions. Also it’s just easier to communicate with farmers at the farmer’s market because a lot of them are very busy and don’t reply.

So just being able to coordinate with them in person is the best way. And, we also started using, Glass jars when we first started, just so it could be a way to reduce plastic waste. Now we also introduced like a bulk version of our product that we sell at the farmer’s markets. So it’s completely zero waste option. People can bring their containers in, we, we tar them and then just fill up how much they want of our pulp crunch. Even our cookie. I love when customers just bring their own container. Take out containers. It doesn’t have to be fancy like stainless steel ones and they just pick up our products and it’s like complete zero waste transaction. Those are the small things that we try to do too, as a small business to just reduce our waste. Hopefully as we grow, we can, we can make more impact in terms of how much waste we’re reducing in other aspects of our business.

[00:25:32] Jennifer Chua: So when you did start the business, what was your big dream in those days?

[00:25:36] Monique Chan: My dream was to just, I guess, have something that really resonated with other people and, and created impact in other people and something that was unconventional and not seen on the market. So another reason aside from reducing food waste, Why I started Bruized was because I was very interested in natural food and eating healthy and finding food that fuels.

And a lot of times I would browse, especially the granola section. And most of them would look healthy, like have all this beautiful, eco- packaging. And when you look at the ingredients which is like number one thing you should do when you pick up any product, because at the end of the day, ingredients don’t lie. You would just see a lot of these products are filled with cheap ingredients, fillers, sugars, oils, and nothing really that is fueling for your body. So I really wanted to first start off by making a granola that I could eat every day and feel good after eating it. That’s where I came up with pulp crunch because I also was into juicing.

I had all this juice pulp leftover and I was like, wow, this is a great like base full of fiber. There’s so many nutrients still intact in that fiber. Why not use it instead of throwing it out? So I think that’s another reason that drove my passion for starting Bruized. Create products that were unconventional, helping to tackle food waste, but also tasted good at the end of the day. And weren’t just the gluten-free option or the vegan option, but was the good option. Genuinely people liked and we’ve gotten so much good feedback. Sometimes people don’t even realize that it’s vegan or gluten-free and they usually just surprised or let alone made with stuff that would have just been composted.

That was my big dream and I think we’ve reached a point where we, we have reached, I see the vision, you know, playing out and I still see a bigger future where Bruized can grow nationally, even internationally and start growing its own little hubs locally. That’s another way for us to be more sustainable too, is just keeping Bruized as not a one location, distribution kind of center where we shipped from Toronto all the way to Vancouver. But starting our own Bruized community in Vancouver, in Montreal. And making it more of a local collaboration and collective where people can get together, learn more about food waste. We share good food and have more discussion on how we can make a difference. That’s my big dream. And I’m putting it out there into the universe right now.

[00:28:07] Jennifer Chua: So, what was the first thing that you were proud of though? Like, what is the first thing you were proud of in this business and why did it fill your heart so much that you made change?

[00:28:17] Monique Chan: I don’t know if it was just one thing, but I guess it was just the general response that we got when we first started selling at farmers markets. I think a lot of business owners can relate to this, but having that first sale is like, it kind of just doing your happy dance behind the table and they’re like leaving. I think that just gave a lot of validation that like, yeah, people like this product and they’re willing to pay money for it and support it. I think a lot of that was rooted from us giving out our product very generously, we always were all about sampling because it’s a new industry, a new product, something that they haven’t seen on the shelves before.

We were very generous with always giving samples, always talking about the product and how it benefited our planet and your, your health. And, I think at the end of the day, we also want the product to speak for itself. So we were very generous with samples. And I think to see that response from people and support over the years, has been so fulfilling and that’s truly what brings joy to me in my everyday work.

[00:29:18] Jennifer Chua: and building this business and where you’ve gotten so far, has anything just been like, I can’t believe this worked out this way.

[00:29:26] Monique Chan: Yeah, I guess, I think a lot of times, I haven’t really put a lot of action. I’m going to be honest and to seeking out press or any sort of media coverage, I’ve just been focused on like the everyday grind and any podcasts that we’ve been on or any like interview or grant that we’ve been featured in. Or panel. Literally everyone has just reached out to, to us. And I was just so shocked at how people found us and how they were interested in what we were doing. Even just being here. I was like, wow, this is amazing. Like, people want to know more about what we’re doing and want to be a part of it. And I think that’s, that was the craziest thing to me. I was like, wow, I really don’t even need someone to do PR for me, I’m literally just getting all the emails myself. So yeah, that was a huge shock for me. I’m always happy to, to be a part of other people’s own journeys and storytelling and sharing what we do at Bruized.

[00:30:22] Jennifer Chua: Have there been any moments though that you felt like maybe the odds were stacked against you?

[00:30:26] Monique Chan: I guess usually on like my stuck days where I’m trying to figure out things and, you know, being a small business and doing the roles that I’m usually not that great at. There have been those days and at the end of the day, it’s about taking it all in, not, not valuing the wins more than the lows and like just continuing to move and just going . I think at the end of the day, whatever problem it is, like it’s temporary, we’re going to find a solution and that’s usually how I get through it. We’re going to work it out. We already got here so far, so, nothing’s can really stop us so.

[00:31:08] Jennifer Chua: So if you’ve inspired someone to start their own food waste, upcycling business, is there a common reason that they might give up or walk away?

[00:31:17] Monique Chan: Yeah, I mean, thinking about when we first started, the main barrier for me was just finding consistent supply of things, because this is a very new idea where there isn’t much demand for imperfect ingredients or byproducts that weren’t even seen as ingredients like juice pulp. A lot of people it’s like creating your own system. So I had to really build my own way of sourcing things. And it was really difficult just to find a consistent supplier of ingredients that we used and to also build products around that. It’s very easy to just. order whatever you want. If you already have a product that you’ve developed. But for our business plan, it’s kind of the opposite where we want to help reduce food waste, and we want to actually make an impact.

So understanding how food waste plays a part in different organizations. So using byproducts that are usually discarded specific to those companies is what our business is surrounded by. So. It’s hard when it’s something that you’ve created yourself. And that could be a huge barrier that is discouraging. But I would just recommend keep going. Usually how all new things start. There’s always going to be that friction in the beginning and something that I found helpful to overcome that is just to always have a backup plan. We have like a very long list of suppliers. So you know, that we always can rely on getting the ingrediants that we need, the volumes that we need, because we have different resources and people to source it from. So yeah, I think that could be a huge barrier, but it’s not impossible we’re doing it and you can do it too.

[00:33:00] Jennifer Chua: So how can we avoid food waste? Maybe not in our business, but maybe at home, is there anything that I should be mindful of when I’m looking towards those vegetables that are in the back of my fridge.

[00:33:10] Monique Chan: The first thing I always tell anyone who’s trying to reduce waste at home is to just first. Look inside your garbage or your compost or whatever your waste disposal unit is at home. Take a look at that because that is literally a mirror of what you need to work on. Right? So if you see, like different scraps in the compost, carrot ends, onion, skins, kale stems, maybe looking up different ways to reuse those ingredients.

So whether that be making a, my go-to is just a big pot of veggie stock, you freeze those ingredients anytime you’re prepping your meals. Put them in a bag in a freezer and then just keep filling it up until it’s full. And once it’s full, you take one day to make a big pot of stock. You strain it and then you can make soup, you can freeze the stock to use for future meals. And it’s just a great way to get those extra last bit of nutrients from that produce that you’re paying for. Another way that I like to reduce waste is also to make Grocery lists before I go to the grocery store. I’m trying to improve on that.

I’m not perfect. Sometimes I forget, and I go a little crazy with buying things, but I think that having that structure before you buy your food too, is very helpful. So you don’t buy things unnecessarily or buy things in large amounts. A lot of times I think people have excess because they think they’re getting a deal by buying that big mega family pack when their a family of one or two. And after that, going by the expiry date, they end up throwing away half of it. So they’re not actually saving that money. So I think being aware of like the marketing tricks that are out there and, and realizing that buying what you need and doing more runs to the grocery store is probably better than buying everything in a larger amount. And then letting it sit in your fridge, uh, until it’s gone bad until you forget about it. Buying what you need and, and using it and getting innovative with how you use those ingredients is your first step for anyone just trying to reduce waste at home.

[00:35:15] Jennifer Chua: And what about the future? How do you think what you’re doing now is impacting us or the people around you? How hopeful are you for the future?

[00:35:25] Monique Chan: I’m a very hopeful person. I really do believe like we are early to this type of market for imperfect ingredients. And. I want people to just jump on this and to realize that, oh, if we’re doing it as a small business, there’s so much potential that this can be incorporated into every business on a different level. I really believe like the future holds just the idea of renewing and, and reducing waste because we’re already low on resources even with COVID there’s been food shortages, global warming, climate change. A lot of this is affecting our food supply and we need to just be more mindful of how we’re using the food that’s already being produced versus trying to find ways to create more food, to supply the growing population.

I think the future is going to be all about renewing what we have, finding more sustainable ways to go about, our systems, especially within food. And I hope to be the company that is the leading example for that. And I’d love to be able to connect with other businesses that are interested too, and be able to share anything I can offer to help support them in that transition.

I think we can’t do this alone and real really need to start building our relationships with the people around us and together we each have something to offer and we can put together a solution to help tackle these huge global issues. So it’s all started in ourselves, but also in the collective and collaborative minds of our community.

[00:37:02] Jennifer Chua: Are there any other ways that you affect social change with this business?

[00:37:06] Monique Chan: We are a women of color business and we want to try to be as inclusive as possible as we grow. So, you know, being able to hire more marginalized people to join our team. And also once we were at the stage to be able to donate to more organizations that are making an impact Socially. So we can be able to play a part as a business as we grow and, to support other . Organizations that are . Doing good for that.

I think for our business too, what we hope to offer in a few years is just to be able to expand our line of products. And to also, like I mentioned, be more accessible and where we offer our products so that more people can take part in our mission to reduce food waste and also get that inspiration of why food waste is important and what they can do to help alleviate that. Stay tuned for another upgrade to our range of products and what we can offer to our committee.

We’re in the process of just sorting out the business and having a little restart, just with COVID that really just. What we want to focus on is really just growing our business, making our production more efficient, being able to grow our team. So it’s literally not just two women running this, but having other people that are passionate about food waste to join us. and partake in that. What we’re just focused on is how can we scale this idea and how can we make it also accessible to people?

[00:38:34] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Monique and how she’s embracing imperfect to make feel good food for the planet and the people around us or order some of her delicious pulp crunch visit bruized.com bruised with a Z. You can follow along with Monique on her mission to upcycle imperfect produce into wholesome eats on Instagram at @ bruizedco

Lindsey Laurain from ezpz turned the toddler feeding space upside down with a tip-proof all-in-one placemat and plate that suctions to the surface. In this episode, we learn how she’s created a mission-driven company that leads with innovation and input from pediatric experts, how an onslaught of copies and counterfeits of her products almost derailed her focus, how defending her intellectual property almost killed her business, and how she’s built a value-based business by focusing on the tiniest of bottom lines – meeting the developmental milestones of her customers.

If you want to learn more about Lindsey and her developmentally-focused products that make mealtime less about mess and more about fun visit ezpzfun.com. Have a little one in the home? The ezpz blog has a tonne of tips and strategies to help little one meet mealtime milestones. You can follow along with Lindsey on her mission to revolutionize how we feed children on Facebook or Instagram at ezpzfun

Links from this episode

• Cost Of Goods Sold e04 An Introduction: Rebuilding a Purposeful Business Based on Values with Hip Mommies’ Jennifer Myers Chua
• The video that started it all: Introduction to ezpz Happy Mat
• Fake baby products are everywhere—here’s how to spot the difference in Today’s Parent.
• Beware: Dangerous Counterfeit Toys for Your Baby Are Being Sold on Amazon. Inc Magazine
• Ezpz’s Rebuy Program, Relove & Recycling Program in Canada

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:12] Jennifer Chua: It took me over 20 episodes to make this one. And I think it’s fair to say that this is the episode that you should listen to if you have a product-based business. Particularly if you’re in the impact business base or a mission-driven, but this is definitely the episode to share. If you know, anyone who is starting or building a brand.

Because starting a business is exhilarating. It’s coming up with the idea and the design and building a team. Producing something, launching, even marketing. And this is what you’ll learn from any entrepreneur’s story about building something. But not every founder is willing to tell you what you were really going to need to know.

Back in episode four, I spoke about my introduction to this world and what I had learned about the big businesses built on copying products designed by independent creators with small startups. The astonishing breadth of the counterfeit industry and the speed that it moves. And how online marketplaces and sellers are creating turmoil for small businesses and really just the realities of launching a product.

In this digital world, everything can move at the speed of light except maybe the patent office. And along with Lindsay, I also had a very, very, very uncomfortable introduction to the world of patent law, legal teams. We’ll go into all of that in, in a bit.

[00:03:34] Jennifer Myers Chua: But what we also go into in this episode, These are the things that I guarantee you’re not thinking about when you’re starting a small business. We talk about how naive we both were. How hard it was to deal with the onslaught of counterfeits and seeing our kids used in the listings for the fakes.

How Lindsay and I, if I’m being honest, found herself in a very dark and unproductive place, trying to fight them off. We also learn how she spends her energy now and what she learned to focus on in order to go forward.

And also in episode four, I told the story of how I came to find Lindsay and ezpz, which is pretty remarkable. All the way back then in 2014, we partnered and have really gone on this journey. Building two successful businesses in tandem this whole time. And if you haven’t heard that episode, go back and listen, if you want to hear more of this backstory, because we’re not going to get into that here. But it took me until now a year into this project. To figure out how to tell this story, what the most useful parts of Lindsey’s story would be to someone developing products.

And after years now of walking the trade show aisles and browsing the web, meeting the buyers and seeing everything that’s come out in the children’s product space. I can say that there really isn’t another mission-driven company like ezpz. Integrity is such a big part of ezpz that Lindsey is famously known for turning down $1 million from two different sharks in the tank because of a gut feeling or a values misalignment.

And Lindsey never thought she’d be an entrepreneur. She was following the typical path and was settled into a career in corporate America. She didn’t have dreams of starting her own business, but what she did have was toddlers. Three of them. Lindsay’s all the son was three and her twins were two. And anyone who has been through mealtime with kids this age knows what a mess it can be. Chaos is the word that Lindsay uses when she remembers this time. Over dinner, one evening after cleaning up multiple tipped-over balls and spilled food. Lindsay’s husband Brad threw up his hands and said there has gotta be a better way. We have to create something that these kids can’t tip and toss.

[00:05:44] Lindsey Laurain: Nothing really existed in terms of a placemat in plate combination. There were suction cups, plastic bowls, but they all didn’t work and were terrible. And so really quickly, I honestly, the next day I got home and I taped a bowl to a piece of paper and I was like, I’m starting a company and creating a product. If anyone can do it, I can do it. And my personality is very all or nothing. I always say it’s a blessing and a curse. And I never looked back. And so I taped that bowl to a piece of paper. And then that was really the start of the journey back in 2014.

[00:06:16] Jennifer Myers Chua: Lindsey went to Google and began searching for potential materials for information on how to start a company. She picked up an inventor’s handbook and was spending her evenings looking at supplies, requirements and thinking about building a team. Before Lindsay had anything in development, She had this idea in her head that she wanted to create a really special company culture. She wanted the team she would build to enjoy the work. She wanted them to form tight bonds. Be close friends, as well as collaborators.

And only two weeks after the mealtime mess led Lindsay to think about creating a product. She reached out to her two best friends from middle school. Both were on maternity leave at the time and both agreed to help Lindsay start this business. Neither returned to their full-time jobs. Lindsey hired a creative lead and a speech-language pathologist and feeding therapist. And now seven years later, this team is still together. Having all been there since the beginning.

[00:07:12] Lindsey Laurain: I realized that I wanted to work with people I loved. If you enjoy the people you work with, it really doesn’t feel like work. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. If it’s work you love, if you don’t like, if you love the people you work with and the energy, it, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing. And so at the very initial onset of ezpz, I was like, if I create a company, I want to have a great company culture and I want to work with my best friends.

[00:07:38] Jennifer Myers Chua: I asked Lindsay, what qualities she thinks that she has, that has led her to build such a successful company. She said that she’s always been competitive and driven and determined and passionate and positive. All traits that lend well to entrepreneurship. But beyond that, she’s honest, optimistic, a dreamer, a big thinker. And determined to use her life to create positive change.

[00:08:00] Lindsey Laurain: When I started, I was researching all of the materials available and just realized I fell in love with silicone really early on because it’s high quality, it’s built to last, so it doesn’t fade or deteriorate, it’s sustainable. You can literally pass it on to kids. And it’s safe, it’s inert and so mould or fungus doesn’t grow on it and you can put it in high temperatures and cold temperatures and it’s flexible. I just, I love silicone as a material. And so it was very important at the beginning to make products that were high quality and safe.

But then I realized really early on that unfortunately, not a lot of other companies do this I mean, they don’t pay attention to, whether, it’s the material, you know, there’s so much plastic out there, or just the design, the actual design and aesthetic people weren’t paying as much attention to. I knew there had to be a better way and it’s been a mission really, since we started off creating high-quality innovative products for kiddos.

[00:09:02] Jennifer Myers Chua: I assume a lot of this really developed after you met miss Dawn, but do you remember was it meeting Dawn that helped you become interested in developmental milestones and feeding or, or what is the moment that stands out in your mind?

[00:09:16] Lindsey Laurain: So Dawn is a speech language pathologist who has 25 plus years experience dealing with kiddos with all sorts of disabilities. So, a kiddo with autism or down syndrome or cerebral palsy. And so Dawn actually reached out to ezpz. We launched on Kickstarter. And at that time we just had the happy mat. So we had created the happy mat. Our mission is making safe products, but also at that time, it’s like less mess -more fun. I’m a mom of three boys. How can I simplify my life? Make a product that the kids aren’t going to toss and throw the bowl I can take the mat to the sink. It just is all about making life easier for mom and dad. So Dawn reaches out to us when we’re on Kickstarter. And at that time had said, I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I duct tape bowls to the table right now. This mat is going to change so many people’s lives. And I had no idea. Again, we created the mat because of our three messy neuro-typical boys.

And so getting that feedback early on, that the mats and the way they suctioned function or self seal to the table can have this benefit. Kiddos with cerebral palsy are eating for the first time. I mean life-changing effects not only for these kids, but for me a creator. I mean, to be able to touch people’s lives in that way. And the messages we got from parents about changing kids’ life. I mean, it was, and, you know, cause you were part of the journey at the beginning. It was so heartwarming and something I didn’t anticipate with ezpz. So at the beginning, again, that was more about making a difference in people’s lives.

How can we create a safer environment and these kiddos that have never been independent eaters now are able to eat somewhat independently. That was huge. Then quickly realizing when you start your company. Or when I started my company or anyone starts a company, you start to learn about the industry and how products are created.

And I realized very early on that people don’t focus on the design aspects of products. So I assumed as a mom, if you go into a store or if you’re shopping online, everyone has a speech language pathologist on their team. That’s developing products for kids in the feeding area. And I assumed, right? If you’re going into a store, like everyone’s thought about the size of the spoon head and how the cup size should be the perfect size for an infant. And I quickly realized that does not happen. No one’s paying attention, right? The spoons being sold at your big box store, that you go, or your grocery store. If you look at a spoon head, it’s huge and it’s being marketed towards six month olds. And so really quickly. And again, Dawn’s influence right note saying this isn’t appropriate. I quickly realized. Like this doesn’t exist and we deserve better. Parents deserve better. Kiddos deserve better. Like we need to be creating and giving tools to kiddos and families that can help these kids reach developmental milestones and be the appropriate size. It’s almost like you’re setting people up for failure, right? When you’re not paying attention to these designs. And no one is everyone just cares about making money, producing the cheapest thing, the most quantity you can sell and how much can you make? And so Dawn was a huge driver in that, but then also being a mom. And just realizing that this isn’t part of the normal design process for companies.

And again, there, there has to be a better way. So then switching our mission really from like less mess and let’s make people’s lives easier to, how can we make better products that are developmentally appropriate and really tailored for specific age ranges. And so it’s all about, I mean, it’s our whole mission of our company. Creating these innovative products to reach very specific developmental milestones.

[00:13:13] Jennifer Myers Chua: I’ve had the unique opportunity of learning more about your process and watching you launch new products over years now.

And I’ve learned to look at products in the store in a very different way because of your influence. Thank you. But could you tell me about the day that you realized that conventional feeding products may be less than ideal? Or why does the design of something like a spoon and that bowl size? Why does that really matter?

[00:13:38] Lindsey Laurain: Going back to being a mom and my assumption before I started ezpz that every product that is created is so thoughtfully designed and is tailored for what it’s marketing for. And so for feeding specifically, there are so many developmental milestones from a feeding and speech standpoint.

So I’m going to give you just a few. So from a feeding perspective, It’s a developmental milestone that kids can learn how to drink from an open cup. So you can’t see me but I’m bringing my hand to my mouth. Like you would drink from an open cup. That’s a developmental milestone.

Learning how to scoop with the spoon is a developmental milestone for young kids. Learning how to Pierce is a developmental milestone with a fork. Kids learn how to Pierce. Picking up stuff is a developmental milestone. And so you have all these developmental milestones that kids should be making, right? It’s just the natural progression as kids grow. And the tools that are available they’re not created to achieve those developmental milestones. So right. You have a huge spoon head. You have a long spoon handle and you give it to a kid. They can’t scoop with that and dip with that and Pierce with that. And so we realized just how important it is to create these tools. So kids and adults, the adults can give the kids the tools to meet these milestones from a feeding and a speech standpoint.

So another example is the sippy cup. With our boys, I was taught to go off the bottle and get your kids on a sippy cup. That’s literally what the pediatrician told me, you know, at your 12 months, you get off the bottle and you’ve gone to a sippy cup. After meeting Dawn I quickly realized that’s not the proper recommendation. And again, you’re probably thinking, well, that’s from a pediatrician. But these pediatricians they’re general health practitioners, right? They’re not feeding experts. They’re not swallowing experts. Their scope of knowledge is very general.

So I think once you start meeting with speech language pathologists and other therapists, you realize that no people hate sippy cups. Again, sippy cups were developed because of a convenience. I’m totally all for convenience, but it became the norm. You give a kid, a sippy cup, they can walk around and drink it great they’re not spilling it. That’s awesome. Then you realize like, this is not good from a speech standpoint. You’re going from a bottle to a sippy cup. They’re not using their mouth in different ways. There is an opportunity here for open mouth or open cup drinking. The tiny cup, right. And you’re using just different parts of your mouth or the babies mouth. Versus a sippy cup. And the parts of the mouth that are being used drinking from an open cup help with speech. And so you’re working on different vowels and consonants, all this stuff that I had no idea I never even thought about. I just, I didn’t. And so I, now it gets me so excited thinking about like having a product for all of these developmental milestones.

We’ve made the tiny line now for first feeder, so right. Four to six months we’ve got the tiny cup and the tiny spoon and the tiny bowl. Now, then we have the mini line, which is advancing to nine to 12 months olds, but now we’re looking at products that are for pre feeding. And so how can we again give the right tools to set up these kids for success?

[00:16:59] Jennifer Myers Chua: And I think the last time that I had a sippy cup in this house, it’s been a couple of years now. But at that time, we were also going through this thing in the industry where people were finding mold in the little crevices of sippy cups and those water bottles that were plastic. And I’ve noticed that your products tailored to this age group are a hundred percent silicone. And I’d like to talk a little bit more about why you’ve chosen silicone in terms of health and safety, and then also the environmental impact of silicone. Can you give me some insight into your silicone obsession and why you chose silicone?

[00:17:38] Lindsey Laurain: I am a huge fan of silicone I will say this what, before I even started ezpz and we were looking at materials. I mean, you think about silicone breast implants, right? People have been implanting silicone into themselves for years. I mean, just from a safety perspective, like logically, okay. That’s like a safe material. This is again, seven years ago when I started researching. And then once I started researching all the different materials available, I just, again, fell in love with silicone because it’s safe. Very high quality. We still have the happy mats we used when the boys were two eating, and the bowls and they don’t fade, they don’t deteriorate. A product that you buy is going to look the same for years. So it is sustainable and it’s high quality. And it’s inert. So it’s also resistant to high temperatures and low temperatures. So you can heat the silicone. you can also freeze it.

And then it’s also flexible. So from an eating perspective, we like kids using utensils in the sensory aspects with the silicone. It’s a great sensory aspect. So if you’re using this, those utensils or the cup, but also when you use the mats and you’re just using your hand on the mats there’s a good sensory aspect. But then the flexibility of the material allows a kid to what we call raking. So you can like grab the food out and the mat will kind of flex the bowl part of the mat. And we do a lot of quality testing on a yearly basis. So that that’s really why we chose silicone? We’re now starting to get into other materials and look at other materials. And so, but that’s kind of the next evolution of ezpz

[00:19:16] Jennifer Myers Chua: And I think that a lot of people as consumers don’t understand the difference between consumer product safety and developmental appropriateness. So we automatically assume that if something has come into our country, especially legally. So if something has come into our country, it has been tested to be safe.

We all know that there is some sort of regulatory body making sure things are quote, safe, unsafe, but I think what people are not thinking in terms, especially of baby products, if a child is using something that is not appropriately designed for them and the stage they’re in, it can lead to problems later. So the safety isn’t maybe immediate that they’re not choking or whatnot , but that these decisions have long-term benefits for the children or the people buying the products in the future.

[00:20:01] Lindsey Laurain: Totally. I mean, I just had no idea . Our tiny cup, like designing something and getting kids off of a sippy club, it’s going to help with speech development. I mean, it’s so much more even than just like feeding. There’s a speech development. And then just what, what are the normal developmental milestones for feeding? Right? I definitely didn’t know that much as a parent, outside of going to the pediatrician and saying like, your kids should be able to pinch the Cheerio. That’s like the one I remember.

We want to improve our messaging and giving parents the tools to understand how each product is tailored. Especially as we develop out the feeding line up until older kids. and some of that innovation. But absolutely not. I mean, I think there’s a safety component, which again, there are regulations in place, but lots of people don’t follow them or they’re not really you know, you can still sell products getting by those regulations.

Unfortunately. I mean, I tell this all the time. On Amazon it’s the wild, wild west. It’s really important to buy from companies that you can trust. Just because they’re being sold on Amazon or quite frankly in a store doesn’t mean they’re necessarily doing all the quality testing. And So we spend a great deal of not only money, but resources on quality and compliance testing from a product safety standpoint. And also our manufacturer goes through quality audits as well. And then yeah, the design process absolutely is super

[00:21:26] Jennifer Myers Chua: So when you began to look at conventional children’s products was there anything else that surprised you about the industry as a whole?

[00:21:32] Lindsey Laurain: So when we started seven years ago, there wasn’t a lot of just stylish baby goods. So everything was more primary colors, reds, bright reds, yellow, blues. No gray, not a lot of pastels, not a lot of like beautiful design. And so at the beginning, that was surprising to me, I think just not as much focus on like aesthetics and aesthetically pleasing products for children. Now, seven years later, there are so many pastels and so many grays. But at the time there was just like lack of innovation and design aesthetics at that time.

And I realized that the industry was just very antiquated. The heads of these bigger companies were people that have been doing this for a lot of years. They’re not following all those style and the latest colors and all of that. So more of an industry that needed some innovation, young energy. So I think my advice to anyone listening too. There is opportunity for companies to be created and innovative products to be made. So I think that was a surprise at the beginning, just like the lack of innovation. And then I think the counterfeits and the copies and all of that. Absolutely. I just, I was naive. And I’m sure lots of people that have been in industries knew those problems existed, but I was naive to all of those problems.

[00:22:51] Jennifer Myers Chua: And Your products are manufactured responsibly, and you have a really unique relationship with your manufacturing partners. I will never forget that you brought your manufacturing partners to the world industry trade show, which surprised everybody. Transparency. What does it mean to manufacture responsibly? Or what does that look like? And how can you be sure that the people making your goods are being treated well?

[00:23:16] Lindsey Laurain: I think, gosh, that question and having an answer is now more important than ever. Like the fast fashion, the craze in the manufacturing facilities, in some of these industries that are just like horrific, not only the quality of the facilities, but how they treat their workers And so our manufacturer we’ve been with the same manufacturer since we launched ezpz. So over seven years which I think is very unique and I found them through a referral. I didn’t just find them randomly online. I got a referral which was really nice at the beginning, looking for manufacturers. And then we have absolutely created, a family relationship, like, like you said, you met them.

They used to come to, when we had in person trade shows, they’ve come to a lot of trade shows with us. So they came to Vegas to the ABC kids expo, and then every year in Germany, they meet us in Germany every year for Kind & Jugen, and hang out at our booth with us and meet, our international partners. And so, I’ve been over to the factory. Other folks on the team have been over to the factory to make sure that they’re manufacturing to our standards. And then in addition to just me feeling good about them, right. And having a great relationship that we absolutely trust each other we also go through or they go through quality audits.

And so, there’s a few different types of quality and compliance audits you can do on a manufacturer. And not only do we have audits that make sure the manufacturing facilities are safe and, high standards there, there’s also like social compliance audits that are making sure they’re taking care of their employees. And so the manufacturer again, has to provide all of that information to the third-party audit. So we do our best. And I feel so grateful and fortunate to have such a wonderful partner. That’s really grown with us over the last seven years. So it’s been fun. And two of them have had babies. And then it’s fun seeing their kids use ezpz products. We’re very grateful.

[00:25:18] Jennifer Myers Chua: And I think in terms of consumer behavior, when people want to make sure that they’re supporting a company that is manufacturing ethically, one of the things that people automatically gravitate towards is looking for north American made products. But I think that a lot of people don’t understand that manufacturing overseas can be responsible, but also the challenges of producing something like a silicone product in the United States, how that can be hugely significant, those challenges. Can you speak a little bit towards why you chose China and why you were comfortable with that decision?

[00:25:53] Lindsey Laurain: When we started and we’ve explored us manufacturers, continuously throughout the last seven years, I wanted to make this in the United States. And thought that would be a great idea. Quickly realizing that just the cost of raw material is so much more expensive in the United States, silicone specifically you know, our happy mat, right? It’s a retail price point of 24 99. That’s expensive. And the cost of goods are very expensive behind that. And it’s a lot of silicone we’ve trimmed it down a little bit, but when we launched it was a pound and a half of silicone. And so, I very quickly realized just the price of raw materials and labor. It was going to be cost prohibitive to start in the United States. Since we’ve evolved and made smaller products, such as the tiny cup there’s more of a possibility that we could be sourcing some of these products from the United States. But then it just goes to supply chain issues And figuring out how to do all of that logistically. So it’s never worked out, but I’m not saying that eventually we wouldn’t love to have a backup manufacturer producing at least some of our units in the United States.

[00:27:04] Jennifer Myers Chua: And are there any other ways that your products help families reduce waste? Like I’m immediately thinking of the lids to help food spoilage, but are there any other ways that your products help reduce waste?

[00:27:15] Lindsey Laurain: I think I would say our products versus any product, but like getting rid of disposable, right? Paper products. And plastic products. I think that alone, but then the fact that the products are so high quality and don’t fade or deteriorate over their life that you can really not only keep and reuse these products, but then pass them down to future kiddos. And so hopefully you’re buying less products, right? You only need a few mats and a few cups and those products will last they’re built to last really. And so, hopefully that that reduces waste. And then to your point we’re very excited about the new lids. So if you have a meal and your kiddo, didn’t finish it. You can put a lid on it and put it in the fridge to reuse that.

[00:28:02] Jennifer Myers Chua: We have an ezpz recycling program actually in Canada through Hip Mommies. So we are taking back some of the ezpz products who have managed to hit the end of their life cycle, and we do recycle those properly with Terra cycle. Also really interesting to note that a silicone can be recycled and it looks like trending that it will be something that will be repurposed and recycling, more conventionally going forward, which is really good news.

[00:28:30] Lindsey Laurain: Yes, that’s awesome. We love you.

[00:28:34] Jennifer Myers Chua: Something that we have gone through together a lot over the last couple of years is learning about the counterfeit industry. And personally, I’ve been mostly surprised about what kind of products are counterfeited especially children’s products. When I thought counterfeits before I thought of things like handbags being sold out of the back of cars and had no idea, just the breadth of the counterfeit industry.

If I’m a regular customer and I’m a consumer in a store and I’m looking for something for my child, and I see two things that look the same, but one might be more affordable in one case. Why do I need to be concerned about counterfeit children’s products? What’s the issue with counterfeits?

[00:29:17] Lindsey Laurain: To your point. I just, I had no idea kind of the counterfeit and copy worlds that existed. I absolutely thought that, you see the handbags and that those types of products and when we started ezpz, I’ll never forget, you know, people saying like, oh, people are going to copy this. And I swear to God, I believed this. I said, I’m a mom. No, one’s going to copy me. No one I’m a mom. Like, I don’t know why I thought being a mom gave me super powers, but just I was just so naive that people would copy. And that quickly, I quickly quickly learned. I mean, we had copies so quick with ezpz. There’s a lot of copies and counterfeits. With ezpz and our mats, because the technology was so novel and new, it was out of control. The copies and counterfeits. Back in 2015 and 16, it was so overwhelming and terrible. I hated that time. Because almost every day, I mean, it was like daily. It was just everyday, every week. Images of people sending mats whether it’s on Alibaba or Amazon, and not only terrible to see your product, being copied, but our kids being used in the photos was the worst part for me at the beginning. And it was worse actually for me, seeing other kids being used. So, right. It sucked when Chase and Drew and Brody were on everything at the beginning. But then as we started using other people’s kids for photos, right? Like, so Edie and Christie’s daughter and Tammy’s and you see those photos being, placed all over, I just felt really responsible and terrible. It was just a terrible feeling.

There was a very emotional component of that. It was just really emotionally wearing on me. It was very negative, you know, and trying to deal with that and find a legal team and lawyers in a team to be able to manage this was a huge part of our business back in really 2016 and 2017. I kind of had to take away my focus from innovation and growing the company to how do we protect this company, right? I mean, how do we protect what we’ve built and make sure consumers are aware of what’s going on? It was not only a big part of hiring lawyers and enforcement team and all of that, but then messaging to consumers.

So to go back to the consumer piece, I mean, I just had no idea that counterfeits and copies were all over Amazon. And so we spent, we don’t message as much about it. But at that time, I mean, it was a big part of our messaging how to buy safe products, pay attention to where you’re buying from. I would say now I’m a very educated consumer because of what I do, but I still have a lot of trouble identifying copies and counterfeits when I’m shopping for Amazon. I’m not a big online shopper. So you know, my advice to anyone, whether you’re buying a kid’s product or any product for that matter is to just pay attention.

 It’s very easy to tell once you start looking for kind of clues of fake products but there’s some really good copyists that we’ve gotten packages that look just like ours and unless it’s, there’s like two words that are misspelled, we would have never known. Right. I mean, it’s kind of crazy. It has been part of the learning process, and now I’m much more equipped from an emotional standpoint to handle it. And from a legal standpoint and we filed a lot of intellectual property. So again, that was a pretty long answer.

[00:32:48] Jennifer Myers Chua: And I think when I went through this with you, I was completely shocked to understand the counterfeit industry. Like I really thought people were just copying products to make a quick buck. I didn’t realize how large it is, like $300 billion a year or whatnot. I didn’t realize what products even sunscreens and toothpastes are being counterfeited.

And I didn’t realize that counterfeiting, the industry is funding things like organized crime and that they’re using child labor and that the materials may not be sufficient. They’ve definitely not done safety testing because as you’ve mentioned, safety testing is super expensive. And I didn’t realize that these things could actually be dangerous. In my mind, I’m just thinking, oh, this handbag will end up falling apart. Maybe the quality isn’t as nice. I didn’t realize that that there’s potentially toxic chemicals on these products. There is concerns for our health and safety if we purchase these. And I think that for me was incredibly surprising.

[00:33:54] Lindsey Laurain: Absolutely. I think I mean, going back to safety is, should be any company’s priority, but they are making not safe products. And so when we were going through all of this, I started buying products and I was trying to get them quality tested to find out. And then eventually I’m like, what the hell am I doing?

I’m spending all of my energy. And like, what kind of good does that do? I mean, I want to tell everyone, right. I was so passionate about, like, everyone needs to know this. There’s so many copies and they’re not safe and they’re going to fail. And then that’s not just the best use of my resources. Right. I mean, I was spending every minute trying to like. Again, looking at all these products and order them and send into factories and tell Amazon that they’re being sold without the proper labeling. And then versus more turning internally and saying, we can only focus on us. Of course, it’s important to message this to consumers. I mean, now there’s much more messaging about this, but and how can we make sure we’re making the safe products, passing all our quality tests, and focusing internally right on the high quality products is, is the only thing we can do. But it’s disturbing. And hopefully, as more awareness comes about this problem, like there will be more quality testing requirements. I will say Amazon is starting to do more quality testing.

That was a big one of my issues and I went to the white house and talked about like an anti-counterfeiting. I was at a round table at the white house and Amazon was there and we talked about the quality testing the requirements that they did. And over the years, I will say they are starting to implement more quality testing. But up until this last year, it’s been really the wild, wild west from a quality standpoint. And you can sell anything online, you know, pretty easily

[00:35:36] Jennifer Myers Chua: And so if you’ve made it past the counterfeits, you’re not shopping on Alibaba, Ali express, where you expect that 99% of things are counterfeits. You’ve made it past Amazon. You mentioned copies before, and I assume that by that you mean a already established business that is replicating your product.

And I know the ezpz has gone through a lot in terms of patents, but do you want to talk a little bit about your experience about copying? Because I think that, again, this is something that definitely a consumer wouldn’t know, but if someone is looking at getting into a product based business, I think this could be useful for them as well. What’s the deal with copies?

[00:36:17] Lindsey Laurain: We’ve had every kind of copy and counterfeit available, but probably one of the hardest for us from just a like, “taking away market share and products” is when a big baby company or another big company copies you. So I’ll say, the folks that are selling on Alibaba and quite frankly, some on Amazon, those companies, right?

They’re not brands. They are just a product that someone’s trying to sell to make a quick buck. But when you have an established company. So you can think of every industry has established companies, right. That are the leaders of the industry. When you have an established company, copy you, or, my fellow mom, entrepreneurs, or dad, entrepreneurs, whoever, and they copy the product.

It’s more impactful in a negative way because these big companies have distribution already set up in place. When you’re starting your business, right, we didn’t have one retailer when we started. So we launched on Kickstarter. Started building our customer base. And then it is hard work to meet all these retailers, get in with retailers, not only do you need to meet them and get in with them, you have to set up it’s called EDI and how you transfer data back and forth.

And so you need systems in place to be able to do this, all of this costs money. It’s a process. And so these big companies that come, they have lots of products and they’ll create a copy product and it’s so easy for them to immediately have distribution, right? They have the relationships with all the big box stores. They can copy a product very easily by watching the market and seeing what’s selling well and go into a trade show and seeing where everyone’s at at the booths and what everyone’s talking about. Right. It’s really easy to look at that from afar. Say, I’m going to copy that. Quickly copying it. And then these big companies have distribution that they can instantly get into these big box stores.

So that to me and we’ve dealt and we, and we’ve, filed intellectual property. We filed design patents and a utility patent on our self sealing functionality of the mat. And despite having IP filed, we had a big competitor copy us on our mats and get distribution into some of those larger big box stores.

And so we’ve been in a litigation since 2016. So for five years the majority of my energy is focused, unfortunately on a lot of legal challenges and dealing with litigation. And so we are fighting for our intellectual property that we believe that. That we got over the years. We just went to a trial on this litigation specifically, but I would say that that’s been a, a bigger, negative impact because the bigger company has distribution and they’re stealing market share. Like they’re selling their mats in the targets and the Walmarts. And so we’re not selling mats. Again, when, when a lot of those copies came out, those years were very, very challenging in 2017 and 18, our mat sales were steady, but they were starting to decline. We had all these copies come out that are stealing market share.

And so it goes back to protecting what we’ve built and being able to stand up to some of these folks which ezpz is in a fortunate position. That we’ve had the legal resources to do that and the financing to do that. And I can say at points, we were on the verge of bankruptcy and not in good places financially, but we’ve gotten through a lot of those tough times. But a lot of these smaller other companies can’t do what we’ve done.

And so that’s kind of crushed me seeing a lot of these other moms. And I guess I should say dads that started when ezpz started. Right? So back in 2014 and they just, they can’t, they, they havn’t made it. So a lot of companies that started haven’t made it because they get knocked off the products that gets copied, goes into the big box store And then, you’re strapped trying to be scrappy. So I, I think we’re in a good position. But it has not been ezpz, no pun intended.

[00:40:20] Jennifer Myers Chua: And you are a family owned business and you work with your very best friends. So they’re your family as well. I’d love to chat about those costs as well. What have the costs been to your family life? Like your mental health? Like you said how challenging this was, but how tough has building this business really been in terms of, of those costs to your personal life?

[00:40:40] Lindsey Laurain: Gosh. I mean, I’ll start by saying I wouldn’t change anything and I would do it all over again. And I think actually once I kind of changed my mindset… this is just part of our journey, the copies, the counterfeits, the lawsuit we’re in, it’s what we’re supposed to be doing now and not have this victim mentality. Like, I feel bad for myself sometimes. Right? I’m like this sucks. This isn’t fair. I don’t deserve this. And That’s just not a good place to be in mentally versus it is what it is. I don’t like it, but it’s our journey and I’m not going to feel bad for myself. It’s what I’m supposed to be doing. And it’s what we’re doing.

And so having that mindset for me personally, has made a lot of a difference versus like I wanted to quit so bad those years. I really did. During those really hard times, it didn’t feel fair. Like I said, I just, we didn’t have a ton of money. We couldn’t get money because we were in lawsuits. So no one wanted to lend us money. I mean, it was just this like terrible, kind of feeling versus coming out of that. And just again, being scrappy and figuring out how to finance the litigation and. Again, I’m now able to talk about it a little bit easier cause we’re out of it. Right. And we got money and we’re not broke now..

But during those times that was challenging. I would say, not only for me, but I would say the lawsuit and all of that has probably been more harder on Brad, my husband. And probably my kids in, in the sense of like, it’s just pulled me away from them more. I just got off this trial. I was gone for this trial for two weeks. So 14 days I was away. Brad’s home with his kids and that’s a lot to ask of a family and then my kids, just having to see me, deal with Legal stuff and copies is hard. I also say, I’ll say again, the silver lining with that is, these kids know how it feels to be copied and have a bully come after you.

That I am grateful for the, like the life lessons they’re learning through all of this, but you know, it’s, it’s like I work alot and a lot of it is the kind of not fun work, that is the legal stuff. But I, I’ve got a great support network. And the team is great.

I would say, going through all kinds of the challenges, I carry those a lot. So I don’t want my team to know, all the bullshit I’m dealing with all the time, but they go and they continue doing their job just it’s unbelievable. I mean, even this year specifically going to trial and prepping for a two-week trial. I it’s all I was doing, before and after. And I mean, how much innovations coming out and we just haven’t missed a beat. And so, our team is just awesome.

[00:43:18] Jennifer Myers Chua: Could you give me some insight into some of the ways that ezpz gives back?

[00:43:24] Lindsey Laurain: We love giving back. I just love giving gifts, not only to our team, but giving back to our community and I love it. So when we started ezpz and I mentioned this again, a big focus at the beginning was like, how can we get these mats in as many kiddos hands that really, really need them. So kiddos with cerebral palsy or down syndrome, all of these you know, kiddos with disabilities, how can we get mats in their hands to make their life better? And so at the beginning, a lot of our giving back was to the special needs community through different organizations and get mats into people’s hands.

We had done the changing the face of beauty campaign, which was a huge part of at the beginning, which was awesome using kiddos with disabilities in our advertising. And then over the years we’ve just really maintained that. And so we still pick different charities if anyone’s listening and you have a charity that could use mats or you think there’s a good cause we absolutely love donating product. And so we highlight all of the charities and organizations that we donate to. It’s recently kiddos with cleft palates and just all different kinds of stuff. So it’s a big part of our heart of the community of just kind of giving back and making sure we’re doing our

[00:44:41] Jennifer Myers Chua: I have admired so much all of these choices that you have made over the last couple of years. And I’ve watched you change your approach several times and in terms of giving back and sustainable materials and making better choices with your packaging, I know it’s been really difficult to go ahead, to head really with these larger established brands that have tried to capitalize on your innovations let’s say. I know that’s been really challenging, but also in terms of what I’ve seen with consumer behavior over that period of time, I can only think that they cannot compete with you because you’ve made those choices that are resonating with customers. So I was wondering if you could talk about the modern parent and why is ezpz such a phenomenon? How are you resonating with your consumers?

[00:45:34] Lindsey Laurain: You know, I think the consumer today is much more aware. When I started as a mom. So 10 years ago, I didn’t have any really online support or just, you know, all of the online community was just starting. I think that the consumer has changed over the life of ezpz. And the average consumer, the modern day, mom or dad is just more highly aware. So I think they’re more aware because they’ve had access to the internet. There’s more information that’s available to these consumers. They’re looking for safe products, they’re looking for the best products available.

There’s so much information now on different feeding methods for kiddos, whether it’s baby led weaning or the puree method. And so, again, just having more educated, aware, consumers I’m hoping lends itself well to us because we have a good story, right? We have a good mission. We believe in that. We’re very authentic, in what we do.

And hopefully just as time passes, more and more people that becomes important too, as well. So not only are they aware of companies that are doing and not doing this, it’s actually important to them. I definitely, as a consumer. I read people’s stories, that’s the first place I go to is the story page. I love stories.

[00:46:55] Jennifer Myers Chua: What about our children or your customers’ children? What about the adults of the future? How do you think that the work that you’re doing, the hard work that you’re doing with this brand, how do you think this is impacting them?

[00:47:08] Lindsey Laurain: I hope it’s impacting them in a positive way. A big part, I think of what drives us at ezpz is doing what’s right. I am hopeful that not only kids, but adults, anyone that looks and sees what we’re doing at ezpz appreciates what we’re doing. When we started ezpz, It really was about less mess and more fun. And as we’ve evolved, we’ve really tried to hone in our mission of creating safe, developmentally appropriate innovative products, and because money isn’t our driver at ezpz, we’re driven by doing what’s right, making high quality, thoughtfully designed products.

I’m I can only hope that people recognize that and continue to support us. Again, like I said, when I started seven years ago, I just quickly realized that for so many people, it’s about just making money and producing. And that’s just not what we’re about at ezpz. We’re about making thoughtfully designed high quality products. And so I really, really hope that continues to be important to families and our kids can see that it’s it’s life is much more. It’s about making great products and creating a company culture that is awesome. We all love what we do every day. The days aren’t easy and some of the work is terrible, but if you enjoy the people you work with, you can be doing the worst work and it still is enjoyable.

We’re almost done making sure we have a feeding product for pre feeding all the way up to school-aged kids, which is including my kids who are now 9 and 11. So I think by the end of 2022, we’ll have all of that built out and then it’s expanding into different product categories. And keeping that same mission of making products that are thoughtfully designed that are innovative and that the products serve a mission, right. They’re developmentally appropriate and we’re not just producing products to produce products. We’re very strategic with what we’re doing. And so I hope in five years, our ezpz community has continued to grow and more ezpz products are in family’s hands. So their mealtime can be a little bit easier and more enjoyable. And then, hopefully our team has expanded and we’re still having fun and smiling and loving what we’re doing.

So I just, I’m very grateful. I’m grateful. You’re on the team. I know you guys know this, but you and Joey and Hip Mommies for anyone listening, they were our first distributor and just our very special people and partners in our life.

[00:49:45] Jennifer Myers Chua: If you want to learn more about Lindsay and her developmentally focused products that make mealtime less about mess and more about fun, visit ezpzfun.com. Have a little one in the home? The ezpz blog has a ton of tips and strategies to help little one meet mealtime milestones. You can follow along with Lindsay on her mission to revolutionize how we feed our children on Facebook or Instagram @ezpzfun

Alicia Lumsden from Queen’s Shop Fine Hairdressing created a salon where sustainability and community could co-exist. In this episode, we learn what sustainable means in the hairdressing world, and how Alicia deals with the salon’s waste from hair clippings to water and packaging – and how her battle with environmental sensitivities influenced these decisions. We discover how she’s using the salon to help alleviate food insecurity in her neighbourhood, what she’s doing about gratuities and wages, and why Queen’s Shop is a model for what is possible. A salon with respect for the community and the environment.

If you want to learn more about Alicia and her sustainable and inclusive beauty salon visit Queen’sShopHair.com. In Toronto? Visit Queen’s Shop to enjoy an uplifting salon experience. No matter your age, gender, race, or orientation. You can follow along with Alicia on her mission to promote sustainability within the beauty space. At Instagram @queensshophair

Links from this episode

• www.queensshophair.com
• The Stop
• Trees For Life
• Coupe Bizarre Closing On Queen Street via BlogTo
• Davines
• Green Circle Salons
• Genuine Tea
• Propeller Coffee
• Axiology
• Loopjuice

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:17] Jennifer Chua: Alicia Lumsden founded Queen’s Shop Fine Hairdressing. A boutique hair salon in Toronto’s Bloordale neighborhood in the city’s west end. She opened Queen’s Shop with sustainability, beauty and community in mind. Words displayed on the shop’s front window. Providing some insight into Alicia’s mission. And for the last seven years, Queen’s Shop has been doing its part. Alicia has created a more sustainable salon by focusing on eco-conscious products and practices. And caring for the environment and the health of her community. 1% of their sales go to The Stop and Trees For Life. Projects which provide healthy food, foster social connections, build food skills, promote civic engagement, and build the tree canopy in and around the community. and for Alicia, how to communicate the Queen’s Shop’s impact. Has been on her mind.

[00:03:10] Alicia Lumsden:  I’ve just been really trying to take a step back and re-look at things. For me, it’s always been important to not follow what the average person is doing. Whether it’s my physical identity or just what I do on a day to day. I’ve actually been thinking this week about sustainability or caring about our people and our planet. How do we then change our message? That that is just the standard and then evolve into a more unique brand?

[00:03:47] Jennifer Chua: And it’s a message worth sharing. According to Green Circle Salons, 63,000 pounds of hair gets thrown away each day, producing greenhouse gases, as it breaks down, contributing to climate change. 850 pounds of waste was created and measured in one year by Queen’s Shop alone. However they recycle and repurpose 95% of salon waste, including hair clippings, foils, packaging, and excess color. Hair color, lightener and toner or thrown away every day. And when rinsed down the drain, they can find their way back into our drinking water and soil.

I met Alicia through Kristy and Brianna at Decade Impact. You might remember them from episode 14. Alicia and I went through the B Corp readiness program together. A hair salon was one of the last businesses that I had naively thought could create positive impact. And after hearing all of the careful considerations that the Queen’s Shop team has taken in terms of social environmental initiatives. I was left so inspired because no matter what your industry is, there’s small changes you can take. To build a really special, impactful business and lower the carbon footprint, even in a salon.

And before opening Alicia had been hairdressing for nine years. She also spent time as a makeup artist and a wardrobe on film sets. She ended up at a popular Toronto salon where she spent several years being taught and mentored by hairstylists she respected. But when Alicia went through a separation, everything changed.

[00:05:16] Alicia Lumsden:  I think at that point when I was opening, I always did want to open. But you get complacent with life. Nothing’s really urging you to take that next step. But I was in a position where I had. It was a couple years out of my separation and just kind of like, well, what else is there? When you leave that big dramatic thing in your life and you have to reevaluate what’s going on and what’s actually going to make you happy that’s where I was at.

[00:05:45] Jennifer Chua: Also at this time, Alicia was not feeling well. She had a massive, knot in her stomach and some other health issues. Which led her to realize that she had food sensitivities or allergies. I mean, Something was up. And it wasn’t immediately clear what was wrong. While she began to look more into nutrition, environmental allergies, her husband at the time began to look at food and the world in general, from a climate perspective. He began to be concerned about prepping for the end of the world, future doom scenarios. And Alicia didn’t take it that far, but it did open her eyes to the realities of the changing world and her place in it.

And looking back now at her younger self, Alicia was always interested in how she could affect change.

[00:06:28] Alicia Lumsden: I was always. Well, we can’t waste that or that doesn’t go on the garbage that goes into the recycling or like, well, where can I help? I think actually that was the bigger thing too. all those environmental things were definitely key for me. Loving animals, wanting to be outside in the garden. But I think also, even though I was quiet and I’m a very small person I was still the first to speak up about something. So if people were bullying others, I was still like, eh, what do you, doing? So, I mean, I think all of those things… who I am today as a person, whether it’s what I care about for the planet or what I care about for people it’s. Yeah, it was all there as a child.

[00:07:10] Jennifer Chua: Queen’s Shop is a diverse and inclusive space. What do you mean by that?

[00:07:14] Alicia Lumsden: I want . Everyone to feel welcome. So one thing I heard when I was hairdressing as a career before opening, was that, you know, someone would walk into a space and they would just feel judged. They would feel like they needed to do their hair before they went to the salon to feel accepted. To be there. And to me that was just like, you’re paying me. Why am I, I mean, I’m full of judgments. I’m a Virgo full of judgement. But like there’s no need to make someone else feel awful because you’re analyzing what’s going on. I think that’s what a lot of people do. Predominantly as a protective thing for themselves, their ego kind of comes out and wants to like, I dunno, fight for them. And so they ended up treating others poorly. I think that’s the biggest thing. Salons tend to have big egos and there’s just no place anywhere for a big mean ego.

[00:08:16] Jennifer Chua: Just an aside in the nineties, I used to go to Coupe Bizzarre on queen street. I went there because I wanted very out there asymmetrical cuts and they were really the best at that, but that was a space where I very much did feel judgment. And then as I transitioned through my life, so then I remember I was like 26 and I was still going there. Two stylists I would go between. And I remember saying, but I have a job now at like a corporate place. So we need to, we need to transition somehow into something that is a little, and they were just not impressed with my life choices.

[00:08:53] Alicia Lumsden: Oh yeah. Yeah. I can totally see that being a thing. I think Coupe is the extreme and with that, eventually, if you didn’t know you sooner or later knew that it was just where you went to have something a certain way. You didn’t really have the conversation.

You just, you just got what you got and it was going to be great, but you got what you got. But even, even everywhere else, you still get the subtleties of oh, you’re not good enough to be here. You know? It’s like, have you ever walked into like a really expensive store in your sweats. And then you go in like a week later in your really nice trench coat and like all of your jewelry on and the way you’re treated it’s just night and day. I’m like, I still have the same money, same person.

[00:09:42] Jennifer Chua: So what is the experience of walking into your shop? what happens when someone comes and visits you?

[00:09:47] Alicia Lumsden: What happens is that someone walks in and they’re greeted with I guess the feeling of a friendly smile, cause he can’t see our smiles and just acknowledged, welcomed, show them around, get them all set up and uh, Comfortable. Right now I feel like it’s a little different and less nice, but Before, it’s definitely very homey. I’d like to make people feel at home. Definitely as a human, I get a little anxious being a hostess because I want to make sure that all the things are done, but in the salon space, it’s nice. We show them around. We tell them exactly what’s expected of them. Bring them coffee and tea, any other beverages they might want and just continuously direct them. I think that’s the big thing that I’m always letting new staff know is that this is your home. And every client is a guest and it is your responsibility to let them know where they can put their coat. If they need to take their shoes off. If they would like a beverage, where they’re going to stay and hangout while you leave the room for a moment and come back, when their stylist is going to come. Those are all little things that will allow the person to be put at ease and know their place. And I think that’s on a, on a bigger thought, we all just want to know our place.

[00:11:08] Jennifer Chua: We’ve had the opportunity to talk a lot about diversity, equity and inclusion outside of this conversation. And I know that that is really important to you. What is the makeup of your staff look like? How are you being inclusive as a business owner?

[00:11:25] Alicia Lumsden: It is predominantly women. We’re not all women. No. And we don’t all identify as she So that, that is the thing. I don’t think I’m not judging anyone on what their gender is or what their look is. I want men, women, non binary to work in this space, and I want people with interesting unique styles. I want them to actually show their, their style. I think as, as was commented recently that I don’t have a dress code. I do have a dress code is just, is professional trendy. You don’t have to wear all black. You don’t have to wear all white, but you have to be professional in your style. Because hairdressers are artists. So they should be representing their style. Whether that’s through their, their clothing, their hair or whatever that might be, they should still be representing that. When it comes to ethnicity, I think that’s always a challenging one because I can’t I can’t just go out and be like, you, I need you. Cause you’re gonna fix this. Especially when you’re looking for skills and I, I definitely want it and I encourage it. I often actually find more comfort in it if I can find it, if it comes my way and they fit the space. And that’s the other side too, is like everyone that comes in to be hired. I, I asked them, do you understand what the word sustainability means? And so I kinda need someone who’s interested in at least learning about it.

And so I find that even as it is, I already cut down the amount of people that I can hire for any position in this space, because of that, because people just don’t don’t necessarily care, which is unfortunate, but hoping I can change that. I don’t really talk about this. So I guess this is another part of why, if I can find people of different ethnicities it’s actually important to me. I’m a quarter Japanese. And my mom definitely grew up in a time being half Japanese where she was made fun of, a lot, and often. And I think it intensely impacted the way she evolved as a human as an adult. I think there’s just so much trauma for her growing up in a time when, I mean, I think, I think.

People from Japan couldn’t be citizens until maybe five years before she was born in Canada. Which is just, it’s just mind blowing when you think about it. You know, when I think about that, my own ancestors had property and had all that taken from them and put it into a camp because there was a war going on somewhere else. They were instantly accused of of doing wrong when they just simply were born somewhere. I think that’s, that’s a big part of why I do want diversity and inclusion everywhere I can. You have a different skin color, whether you don’t have the funds you know, whether you’re, you’re having a hard time, whether you’re living on the street, whatever your situation is. I think I think we all just deserve a little love and compassion.

[00:14:41] Jennifer Chua: I do want to get back to how you’re supporting your community, but I would love to talk about sustainability. When you were in hair school or acting as a hairstylist or working in that space and you began to look at things like conventional hair care products and conventional treatments, did you find anything surprising?

A lot of people fall into the interest of sustainability in different ways. They will start exploring, going down some sort of route and be like, this is not what I thought it was at all. Or I can’t believe how much plastic waste we have here. Or I can’t believe that this choice I’m making actually impacts someone else down the line in a different way than I thought originally.

[00:15:23] Alicia Lumsden: We had two big bins in the, in the basement. I guess three where I worked. One was garbage. One was recycling and I mean, that was always a little thing for me to like that doesn’t belong in there. And then the big hair bin. And then that kind of just goes out with garbage. And that was always a thing, where I was like, isn’t there a solution here? And there, there was I think around when I did start, but it was a pretty small company. Green circle salons had already started. And it just, it took a while for people to understand that there is a solution. And I think that’s more recent that that’s been a thing that people are thinking about and realizing that if you put something in the recycling bag, it doesn’t mean it gets recycled. Aside from that, I don’t think I thought much about that the things that we used, because I suppose I didn’t realize that there could possibly be other solutions. And the thing that I think I thought about most was when I did start to go through those changes with my ex husband changing our diet changing, like how much time we spent outside. I would actually go to work after a weekend and get a headache from just smelling the shampoo. And to me, that was a big red flag to imagine how sick people probably could get, if they had a higher sensitivity to what was in the products.

[00:16:44] Jennifer Chua: These products that you’re using, when I think of salons and I think of salon quality products or the kind of products that I would think as someone who doesn’t work in this space at all, I would think of your shampoos that are lining the walls beautifully in the salons for purchase. I don’t think that they’re going to be sustainable. Like it’s not the first thought that comes to my mind. I think they’re going to work really well. Can you explain to me what kind of products you’ve chosen to use or why you made those decisions?

[00:17:13] Alicia Lumsden: When I was opening, I was looking at a lot of different options because that was important to me. I knew what I used at home. I knew how I felt when I went into the salon after the weekend. And I didn’t have any severe ailments aside from my digestive issues. But I mean, a headache is alarming enough. And so I wanted to make sure that the company cared and also had plant-based ingredients and also was effective because. I think until more recently, and I’m sure there’s a lot of hairdressers who still don’t believe it. The idea would be that a plant-based hair color you think of henna or you think of like, like the stuff you buy in the natural drug store. But that’s never looks nice. And your greys aren’t getting covered. So that was a big factor for me as well when I was looking at different companies. And I almost couldn’t find something that still had good reviews on there, a great coverage. If you can’t cover grey you don’t have the company, you have nothing is, is my perspective as a hairdresser. So I ended up actually looking at Davines, which is what we carry. And I didn’t realize that they had color. I was just looking at them for their products. And and then I realized that they had color as well. And I kind of fell in love with them almost instantly. I asked around a few friends that I knew use their products as well. Do you like them? Do they do the job? Are they less than great? What was the end result? And they give me a little care package, take home, try it. They care. They’re a family owned company. They have their own manufacturer where they manufacture other products. So I know they’re not getting sold out. Which to me is, was also a fear. You get invested into a company and then some big company buys them and then everything’s washed out and it’s no longer what it was, but you still have the same branding and marketing.

Their main line. They have slow food farms in Italy that they have one ingredient from like their active ingredient from one of these farms. And that’s what they use. When I started with them, it was before they were B Corp, but in, I think 2016, they became a B Corp. And so they’re just continuously doing a new thing each year, changing their formulas and evolving their packaging to continuously become more sustainable. I found them quite exciting.

[00:19:45] Jennifer Chua: Is there anything else about our trip to the salon? That’s maybe less than ideal in terms of sustainability.

[00:19:52] Alicia Lumsden: we use a lot of water. And I guess that’s that’s another thing I love about Davines. They have a high percentage of naturally derived ingredients and biodegradable ingredients. As we’re using a mass amount of water with we got a company called eco heads. And so it just kinda changes the flow. So you get more pressure, but with less water used. And then all of the shampoo and color that you washed down the drain is just a little bit softer on the water that needs to be cleaned out. I think that’s probably one of the biggest things. We do recycle. We use green circle salons to recycle everything and they take everything to a manufacturer to turn it into something else. So that’s nice to know, compared to city recycling. We need a lot of lights. That was the big thing for me at the beginning, when we opened is changing everything into LEDs or any appliances or fixtures that we have, having them being energy star or somehow cutting down on the amount of energy that was used.

[00:20:55] Jennifer Chua: So how environmentally friendly can a salon be really? You’ve done so much to create this low waste environment. I’m wondering if there is anything else that you’re striving towards in your efforts to become green?

[00:21:06] Alicia Lumsden: In a perfect world, in a perfect world, I would have a standalone space where I could have solar panels and a gray brown water system. Maybe some geothermal heating but that’s not really, that’s not realistic in the city. Maybe if I have a place in the country or something, I can do some little spa retreat kind of thing with all of those magical systems in place.

 I mean, I don’t know if there is much more we could do right now. We try to reuse whatever we can. we go through tons of towels and so when they start to disintegrate, we’ll cut them up and we, we use them as decoration in the salon or find other ways that we can turn them into something. Even with our cleaning products, I make sure that all our including in products are eco-friendly mindful of where we’re getting them. We usually use Saponetti across the street, they’re a refill company. So we usually get majority of our cleaning products from them, which is great. And then we can just refill all of our bottles all the time versus having to buy new bottles. Yeah, I mean, we have pretty low waste. We’re not a big enough space to utilize a compost system. So that would go to the same as my standalone space and I’d have a spot for our compost in the back and it wouldn’t matter.

Yeah, I think those are the things I would love if someone gave me brilliant ideas for other things, because I feel like you can always only think so far, right.

[00:22:39] Jennifer Chua: And if I walk into your salon, you’ve taken my coat away and you’re offering me a beverage or a snack, as salon owners, do, what will I be served? Or what will I be offered when I come to visit you?

[00:22:53] Alicia Lumsden: So, we have been using Genuine Tea., which is an ethically sourced, local tea brand. Lovely, lovely couple. Lovely company. We also use propeller coffee, which is also around the corner from us, which is great. And they’re similar. Fair trade ethical brand as well. Additionally, we are licenced. So you can have local craft beer or a glass of bubbly if you like. For snacks we used to do a snack spread vegetables and hummus and crackers and all that good stuff. I don’t carry any meat or dairy in the salon. So if you do want milk with your coffee or tea, it’s going to be oat milk. If you really want milk, which is fine, but I don’t judge anyone. There’s a cafe right next door. So we’ll, we’ll run next door and get you some of that.

[00:23:48] Jennifer Chua: And so you said you serve bubbly on occasion. Does that mean that you do community events?

[00:23:53] Alicia Lumsden: We haven’t in a while. I really can’t wait until things go a little bit more back to normal. We just do so many fun things throughout the year. We have artwork through out the year. We change it every couple of months to a different artist. And we always start with an art opening. And so that’s an open house and anyone can come in and we have alcohol available or we carry loop juice. Oh my gosh. Check them out. They use near bad fruit and veggies. They’re from Montreal. They make cold press juice and I believe they just started making beer. They might’ve even started making gin. I don’t know. They’re cool. I think they’re cool.

[00:24:33] Jennifer Chua: You’ve really taken every little aspect of the experience into consideration, really for your guests. And created this environment that seems to be incredibly sustainable. which is surprising. Cause when I think of a hair salon, it seems like the last type of business that you could take and make it into something that’s eco-friendly. How did you stumble upon this idea to even try to take on such a, in my opinion, massive feat.

[00:25:07] Alicia Lumsden: Thank you. I think it’s just it’s everything I want in my daily life. I can be a snob in the best of way. I think that’s just what it comes down to as I just I, I want these things for myself. And maybe even it’s my own self-reflection that I, I would feel like a hypocrite offering something, even though I know you can’t be perfect. I do have perfectionist issues. I know you can’t be perfect when it comes to being sustainable and having perfection as the goal is not healthy. But we have been open for several years, so every step of the way another thing gets changed. Evolved. And grows and gets better and better and better. You know, we didn’t open licensed. We didn’t open with the way that our place looks now. But every step of the way we add something new or we reevaluate and see how things can be done better.

[00:25:54] Jennifer Chua: and I noticed that you have an online shop too, and that you sell some other sustainable goods. Can you tell us what those are and why you chose to do that?

[00:26:02] Alicia Lumsden: It wasn’t necessarily something I always wanted to do to have the online store, but I feel like out of so many closures and being locked down for so long, it became necessity to evolve into its own store. The pursuit of finding products was rather challenging. All the different little aspects that matter to me, I had to then find in a product and they exist, which is exciting. But it was hard to find things that are actually sustainable. And so what I found is there’s so much beauty stuff being launched right now, but then the packaging isn’t in line. And to me, that’s just so confusing why would you go through the effort of making it sustainable on the inside, but not sustainable on the outside?

Why are we not talking about our packaging? As a province, as a world we’re pushing for an elimination on single use plastics, but we’re not talking about our packaging. So that, I think that ended up being my, my biggest thing when I was looking for products. Making sure that our packaging, when we were sending it out to you was going to be sustainable and that you could count on us for that.

I don’t know about you, but I hate getting something and there’s just all this extra stuff and space. And I’m like, why I don’t you’re not going to receive a packaging slip in our shipments because I don’t personally like them when I get them. I know what I ordered. I don’t need a checklist of what I ordered. So that’s something we don’t do. And then it was also important that what we were sending as, as best as we could, the ingredients were good, the product itself was functional and effective. That the packaging, the company cared about their packaging whether it was a sustainable by default, or they actually took an extra initiative. One company that I love Axiology, they’re a little makeup lid to lip balmy. So you can put it on your lips, your cheeks and your eyelids, and they’re all really subtle tones. As a makeup artist to a consumer they’re full-proof because they just blend really well. But additionally, their packaging is recycled from the beaches of Bali. And then they employ local people to help that situation. So they’re removing waste, they’re employing people and they’re giving you a sustainable recyclable packaging.

[00:28:30] Jennifer Chua: So when your clients come in to visit you in the salon, do they understand how much impact you’re creating here? How do you feel people are responding to this messaging? Cause it just seems like you’re doing so much. I’m just wondering how are people resonating with this or do you think that consumers are still just looking to get beautiful hair and don’t care so much about what’s gone on in behind the scenes?

[00:28:56] Alicia Lumsden: Yeah, we could always do better at um, better educating. At the same time. I think I guess a key marketing thing is repetition, right? The more you repeat the things, the more people actually hear it because they don’t often hear it the first couple of times. I think there are people that care in those are definitely our fans. I think there are slowly becoming more, more people that care. I also think that not everyone’s going to nerd out the way I am currently about these kinds of things and that’s fine. So long as we can take the thinking out of it, for people who don’t care as much and just make it an easy, like you don’t have to care this is just good quality stuff. That’s doing good in the world. However we can get that message out. I do think a lot of our clients do come because we take the, the extra work of caring out of it for them. They just, they know that they’ve made a good decision and everything’s just going to get taken care of for when they’re there. We’re going to recommend things that are good for them as well as good for the planet.

[00:30:07] Jennifer Chua: And so you’ve been going for B Corp certification. Are there many salons that are B Corp certified?

[00:30:12] Alicia Lumsden: There’s one out west. One in all of Canada, so I’m okay to be second. I can follow.

[00:30:21] Jennifer Chua: And B Corp certification is difficult to get, and I can only imagine that it would be very difficult in a business like yours.

[00:30:28] Alicia Lumsden: I feel like as a, as a company that relies on… basically what you do with your brick and mortar and your employees and, your policies on who you choose to carry. I do find it is actually a little bit more difficult versus being a brand. Like a product brand. To actually to, check the boxes.

[00:30:51] Jennifer Chua: There’s more discovery for sure.

[00:30:54] Alicia Lumsden: Yeah, what we do – hair itself. Isn’t an act that that really does anything in these areas. I mean, obviously there’s little things little subtleties and in the amount of compassion that you have but it’s not directly impacted the social and the environmental part. So I do find it can be a little bit tricky for that. I would definitely say that since I’ve started looking at B Corp, my comfort level with offering my team more and more has definitely expanded. You know, I think when you’re small and starting out and you only have a few employees, it’s kind of hard to rationalize, well, I only have this much coming in how can. I give you more than just being nice and supportive and helping you build your career. How can I give you a higher wage? How can I give you benefits? How can I give you sick days? Like those little things that do help an employee succeed and feel better. It’s hard to imagine as a small employer. But the more I’ve kind of looked at it and thought about it and, and was brought awareness through B Corp about it and asked more questions it’s just allowed me to, to just have the comfort and confidence that I can actually offer those things and it, it, isn’t actually going to cost the business that much more in the long run. And I think that was probably the bigger, impactful thing going through the B Corp journey. We’re already doing so much sustainability wise. I feel like that’s, those are all just easy givens us.

[00:32:29] Jennifer Chua: Is there any other way that you’re affecting social change with your business?

[00:32:33] Alicia Lumsden: I think so. I’m actually excited to possibly affect more social change. I’m going to adjust our prices in the new year for removing gratuities. Throughout the past couple of years, it’s been more on the hair industry’s mind. Why are we still taking gratuities? Why is this a thing? It’s uncomfortable. As much as a stylist can say that it’s a gift and they just simply appreciate it. It’s still becomes part of their income, part of their expected income, because they use that for a certain part of their bills. Why is this a thing? Why isn’t that just in your pay? Why is that how we’re doing things? There are other salons doing it, not many, but I hope that we can encourage some social innovation with that mentality and evolving those kinds of things. In the new year, at some point when it starts to warm up, we’re going to start doing some more pay what you can haircuts with the Stop. We’re finally a big enough team. We have the support, we have the time. I think that’s something we can definitely do. And I think it’s needed as well with how much, how many people have lost their jobs. How many people have lower income paying jobs? Have definitely felt the hit over the last couple of years and prices are just going up.

[00:33:59] Jennifer Chua: What about collectively our children, the adults of the future, the hairstylists of the future. How do you think that what you’re doing with your salon is impacting future generations?

[00:34:13] Alicia Lumsden: I know when I was starting out, I was on my honeymoon with my ex and uh, We were at a cute little Airbnb in Niagara lake. And so we had the super cute, 60 plus couples sitting around us, so excited for newly wed newness. And so they were asking what we did. He was an electrician. We’re both trades. We both have to go through the ministry and the Ontario college of trades and write an exam. His process is a little bit longer but ours requires more school. So. There’s a little bit of a similarity and starting out, we both made the same and eventually I made more and the, these adorable couples around us however many generations older. The second I said that I was a hairdresser. They’re like, oh, that’s nice. That’s nice for you. And he said he was an electrician and you know, they were just like, oh, look at you. That’s great. So I think, I think that’s what the industry currently wants to change.

Hairdressers have a lot to offer. And as much as, having your hair hygiene taken care of is necessity. Having your hair done is also a luxury and if you’re going to a higher end salon it’s because those hairdressers have put a lot of work and effort into training and evolving. Their skills and their skills are technical as well as, managing a person in their chair, managing assisstants to support them with that. And then also being a creative. And doing all of those things at the same time while building their career. Most people don’t think hairdressers do that much. Most people think we just go to work and have fun and chew some bubble gum and that’s it. They don’t think about the, all the different little things that go into it, as well as the pseudo therapist that we are as well. I’m excited to see that evolve.

[00:36:26] Jennifer Chua: So you’ve made big strides in changing the hair game in terms of how people view hairstylists, how really low waste you can become as a hair salon. You’re really pushing these boundaries. Are you hopeful now for the future?

[00:36:43] Alicia Lumsden: That’s a tough one. I want to be. I think our younger generations definitely care about these things. But I think with, with all big change, there’s a big reset. And I think we’re going through a big reset right now. And I think there’s still a lot of nastiness, so to speak in the, I don’t know if that’s the simplest way for me to put it. There’s definitely people who need to be reminded that they need to take care of themselves first, but then there’s the taking that consideration to the next level of like, what does it matter? Who I step on along the way, because I’m all that matters. And so I think we’re in a, in a bit of a reset of understanding self care and mental health and speaking up for yourself and setting boundaries for yourself and understanding what all of that means and mindfulness, what all that means versus just walking over everyone. So I’m hopeful that the reset will happen and everything will fall into place. I am hopeful that I think small business can start to plan again and I am hopeful. 2020 and 2021 gave us a lot of things to think about. And there’s a lot more people reevaluating what’s important and what’s not important.

[00:38:11] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Alicia and her sustainable and inclusive beauty salon visit Queen’sShopHair.com. In Toronto? Visit Queen’s . Shop to enjoy an uplifting salon experience. No matter your age, gender, race, or orientation. You can follow along with Alicia on her mission to promote sustainability within the beauty space. At instagram @queensshophair

Concerns about climate change led Katherine Ellison from Bright Planet Pet to look closely at the environmental impact of pet ownership and create a line of 100% plant-based dog treats that taste and smell like real meat. In this episode, we learn how consumer behaviour has shifted in the pet product space, chat about the humanization of pets and what this means for sustainability. And learn how you can make an impact in this area by sourcing alternative proteins or switching to plant-based treats. Which may help lower your pet’s carbon pawprint.

If you want to learn more about Katherine and her 100% plant-based pet treats visit brightplanetpet.com. In Canada? These sustainable, vegan, allergy-friendly treats are in-store at your local Pet Valu. You can follow along with Katherine on her mission to save the earth together with your pet one treat at a time on Facebook or Instagram @brightplanetpet.

Links from this episode

• https://brightplanetpet.com
• Carbon Pawprints: How Our Dogs & Cats Contribute to Global Warming
• Dogs, Cats And Climate Change: What’s Your Pet’s Carbon Pawprint?
• Ono Pet Bowls / Non-Skid, All-in-One Silicone Pet Bowls & Placemats

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:14] Jennifer Chua: If you consider yourself a dog person, you are in good company here. I’m a proud new puppy, parent, myself. And worldwide more and more of us are bringing pets into the home. Pet ownership is trending, increasing in countries all over the world -particularly in developing ones. And how we view our pets is also changing. They’ve become like members of the family. And as pet owners become more invested in the health and wellbeing of their companions, owning a pet may come with some more significant environmental impacts. The choices that we make in terms of our pets’ diets? Well, our dogs are no longer eating meat by-products and table scraps and bone meal. Consumer behaviour has shifted towards feeding higher quality meats in food and in treats. And since meat-based foods use land, water, and energy to manufacture, up to 64 million tonnes of carbon dioxide is emitted in the production of pet food alone. Forbes magazine reported that it’s even been estimated that owning a medium-sized dog can have a similar carbon footprint to a large SUV. Love your pets and the planet? There may be some alternatives worth exploring.

Bright Planet Pet was founded on the principle that dogs and their people deserve a truly sustainable dog treat that is delicious while being 100% plant-based and vegan. Their treats create 90% fewer carbon emissions and use 68% less water than a comparable meat-based treat.

 And just a couple of years ago, Katherine, the founder of bright planet pet was working for large-scale pet food and treat manufacturers. Helping large retailers and national brands manufacture and launch new products. And in her personal life, Katherine and her husband, Dave, were finding themselves, talking about climate change.

Her husband is a scientist. He’s very concerned about all things related to the earth and the pair are very connected to nature. Being out in nature, and going on hikes with their animals. They’re often awed by the natural beauty of our planet. And as they were becoming increasingly concerned about the crisis at hand and their own carbon footprint, they began to make small changes in their personal life. Recycling more, driving less, becoming more conscious of these choices that we make in our everyday lives. And one of the biggest choices was around the food that they were eating. And what kind of impact that their diet could have. So they began to add more plant-based meals, reduce meat. And Katherine soon became a full vegetarian. But it led her to think. What if we could feed our pets this way.

[00:04:59] Katherine Ellison: Even though we don’t have children of our own, when we think about setting the planet up for the next generation, I mean, there’s a huge concern there. And so we just want to do what we can on our part to make those small changes.

[00:05:15] Jennifer Chua: Katherine and her husband live in a beautiful area, surrounded by the nature that they love. The area of 10,000 lakes, Minnesota. They share their life with two cats and three dogs. One pug and two bugs, Boston terrier, pug mixes. Her days revolve strongly around her pets, feeding, walking, and exercising them takes up a lot of her time. But once everyone is taken care of Katherine’s dogs join her in the Bright Planet office space. (She lovingly refers to them as her coworkers) as she fulfills orders works on the business. And takes plenty of opportunities for treat breaks.

[00:05:55] Katherine Ellison: And then it’s always nice to have them to have little mental health breaks and give them some hugs and kisses. And remind me kind of why I’m doing all of this and why Bright Planet is so important. And of course we give lots of treats throughout the day. We treat them with all of our Bright Planet plant-based treats. They also are my taste testers for any product development. So right now I have a bag of biscuit samples, and they usually have those when they go to work first thing in the morning, and then for their afternoon snack.

[00:06:26] Jennifer Chua: So why do you think you are such an enthusiastic pet parent? Did you always have pets growing up? Or why are you so in love with our little furry friends?

[00:06:33] Katherine Ellison: I’ve always loved pets. I grew up with cats and we always had cats my whole childhood, actually, my first word was ‘kitty’, not even mom or dad or anything like that. I’ve just always had a really strong connection with animals. I think it’s the feeling of them just providing us unconditional love that was really something that I embraced and connected with. So I’ve had pets my whole life. I got my first dog when I was 25 and now I definitely love dogs and I love cats equally. So, we have both in our household. I started working at veterinary clinics when I was younger. And when I started working at vet clinics, I found my people. Like the people that love pets, want the best for them, understand them. And a lot of people that are, have strong connections with pets have strong empathy. And so that’s definitely one of the personality qualities that I think I relate to with my pets.

[00:07:38] Jennifer Chua: So you had this opportunity to start a business and create a product, create something, but when did it go into your mind that you had the opportunity to create change?

[00:07:48] Katherine Ellison: I came up with the idea a few years ago when I was at a trade show and I was talking with some colleagues and first I realized that there was a big opportunity to make treats that were specifically created for millennials. And now gen Z consumers. And one of the big things that were trending in the human food industry was the really the huge impact that beyond burgers and impossible meat, they were really like every single grocery store.

And there was so much press about it and they had a strong sustainability mission as well. So first I saw an opportunity to just make plant-based treats and market them as such because there weren’t any products like that on the market a few years ago. And then more so based on my experience and my knowledge about trends in the pet industry, we know that the human food trends come into the pet industry in about three to five years and so more.

So I saw a much bigger opportunity to actually create a plant-based treat that was kind of modelled after the concept of the impossible burger beyond burger and make a plant-based treat that actually tasted and smelled like meat so that our pets would actually really enjoy eating that. While the owner would understand that they were making a more sustainable choice.

So once I had that concept, everything fault fell into place as far as the impact that we could make, because we were going to be able to make treats that were super tasty and delicious with sustainable ingredients that removed meat from all of the formula. Which would, reduce carbon paw prints, reduce the amount of carbon emissions, reduce water usage and land usage. And also we decided to start an initiative where every time we sold a bag of treats, we make a donation to plant one tree. So it’s not just for us. What’s in the treat or what is not in the treat. It’s also the fact that every time you buy a bag you understand that somewhere in the world in an area of deforestation, a tree is being planted because you chose to buy a Bright Planet treat. And so that just goes along with our whole mission of really trying to combat climate change? in the pet industry, by making these small changes for our pets.

[00:10:14] Jennifer Chua: I’d like to talk about the pet industry. Because a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to work with a brand called Ono and it is a non-slip pet dish, but it’s made responsibly with silicone. And I went to one of these large industry trade shows for pets and our brand and this other brand that were making treats, I believe out of cricket flour. We were the ones with the press coming by and people were excited and Ono actually won the innovation award of that particular show. But the response from the retailers, wasn’t what we had expected. So they were very nervous to take on these new brands. And I’m just wondering in the last couple of years, since I had that experience, how is the market responding or the retail market responding to innovations like this that are sustainably minded in the pet space?

[00:11:09] Katherine Ellison: Yeah, there’s definitely been a shift. There are large key retailers who have made commitments to sustainability, like Petco. They made a statement earlier this year that they wanted 50% or more of their products to be sustainable. I believe by 2025. And so that’s a really strong statement from a very key player in the marketplace saying we understand the importance of sustainability when it comes to our pets.

We want to support sustainable companies. We will not have stock sustainable products because that’s what our consumers are asking for. And that’s what is the right thing to do? And so would we go and talk to retailers, we’re able to tell them about our sustainability mission, which oftentimes lines up with their own goals and it makes the transition easier for them to say, Hey, yes, we are going to take in your products because you are aligned with our goals and our vision for the type of products we want to stock. And that’s because the consumers are asking for it. We know that especially the younger consumers are willing to spend more money on sustainable products. And if they can find those unique, sustainable products at a retailer, like Pet Co. That gets them in the door and makes that retailer much more competitive.

So I think that there’s been a ton of really wonderful innovation. Both on the consumable side as well on the hard goods side, as it relates to sustainability, there are great plant-based and sustainable food choices for our pets now. You mentioned insect protein. That’s a huge sustainability play that is becoming much more mainstream.

We’re also seeing hard, good companies using recyclable plastics to make things like toys. And. Even clothing and things of that nature. So, there’s a huge opportunity for startups right now who are really able to make those innovative products and find a market for it. Potentially first, find that market online and then bring that into retail and partner with these retailers that are looking for sustainable products.

We started our company online. We actually started with a Kickstarter, to help fund our first production run. And we raised $10,000. We were able to take pre-orders and then ship out for our first production run. We do have a presence on Amazon and we do sell direct to consumer. That is part of our strategy, but our strategy always first has been to be at retail. We feel like there is a huge opportunity to bring plant-based options to pet specialty stores, as well as to bring plant-based options for our dogs to stores where we, as humans are buying our own plant-based meat. So our goal is to be in pet specialty stores where that consumer is looking for those unique products that meet maybe some, demands that their pets need, like allergen-friendly, low-calorie, things of that nature. But then also we want to be at grocery stores so that you can go buy your impossible burger and then you can go over to the pet aisle and you can also find a treat for your dogs that is a similar type of product. We do feel like there’s a huge opportunity for us online as well, especially to reach our target customer. So we’ll continue to grow that portion of our business as well.

[00:14:39] Jennifer Chua: You began to look into creating dog treats and you began to really explore the pet industry with kind of a different lens, now that you were going into this as a business owner. Could you tell me about the day that you realized that our conventional pet treats might’ve been, less than ideal? Why did you choose to do the a hundred percent plant-based route and what motivated this decision?

[00:15:02] Katherine Ellison: A lot of our pet treats today that we feed our dogs are primarily meat-based. So we have on the market, a number of different types of meat-based treats. You can see treats that use, whole meat as the first ingredient, like chicken or beef, or there are a lot of very popular brands that use byproducts and the main purpose of using all of those products is to get a delicious flavour.

The most important thing for me was to figure out how to make a plant-based treat that actually tasted good. And so the way that we could do that is actually by adding in a plant-based flavouring that makes our product taste and smell like meat.

[00:15:43] Jennifer Chua: I’m just super curious. How are you getting that meaty, smoky flavour that is attractive to dogs? How are you getting that with the plant-based product?

[00:15:50] Katherine Ellison: So we work with a flavour supplier and they have a whole team of scientists where they make flavours for both human food and for pet food. And so they have these proprietary formulas and these proprietary methods where they can develop flavours that don’t use any meat. It tastes and smells like meat. They actually keep that very close to them. They actually don’t share some of those secrets. But we do know that all of our flavourings that we use have absolutely no animal products and are fully plant-based. We also have the opportunity with our flavour supplier to create custom flavours that can be unique and special just to Bright Planet. And so that’s something that we’ll be working on in the coming year to come up with some unique, meaty plant-based flavours that haven’t been seen on the market yet.

[00:16:45] Jennifer Chua: Our pets that are enjoying Bright Planet, what are they tasting at this moment? What do you have available?

[00:16:50] Katherine Ellison: We have three flavours available today. We have our better burger, which tastes like a freshly grilled hamburger. We have our better brat was, which tastes like a grilled bratwurst and we have our better barbecue chicken, which tastes like a delicious chicken leg smothered in barbecue sauce. We’re also working on creating a better bacon flavour, which we’ll taste, of course, like the delicious bacon that our dogs absolutely go crazy for.

[00:17:19] Jennifer Chua: And they’re safe enough for human consumption too right?

[00:17:22] Katherine Ellison: We do have a lot of people that like to try our treats to see what they taste like. We often hear responses. Wow, this is actually pretty good, or this actually tastes meatier than other dog treats. I’ve tried. They are made in a pet facility so they’re not human-grade, but they’re made with all-natural, sustainable, healthy ingredients that we recognize and use in our own diets.

[00:17:47] Jennifer Chua: And what are the costs associated with creating something like a pet treat? Like what’s the environmental impact? What do we need to be concerned about? Like you’ve made these choices that are sustainably minded, but what are the costs associated with doing this? If you were just some big company and you’re just not thinking sustainability at all, you’re just creating pet treats.

[00:18:06] Katherine Ellison: There’s a statistic that shows that American dogs and cats eat so much meat, that if they were a country, they would rank fifth in terms of meat consumption. And so the way we choose to feed and treat our pets really does have a big implant impact on carbon emissions, water usage, land usage, and can make a big difference by making small changes.

So our treats at Bright Planet, because they’re plant-based and we use sustainable ingredients. Our treats create 90%, less carbon emissions and use 68% less water than a traditional meat-based treat.

Yeah. it’s really fantastic. Especially just by removing the beef, beef is one of the highest carbon emission ingredients. And so by removing beef, we can really make a big difference. And, when you feed your pet, our Bright Planet treats, they don’t know that they’re not eating that little tiny doggy burger. They really are enjoying that taste and that smell. And you, as the owner are just having that reinforcement that you made a great decision for your dog. You made a great decision for the planet. We talked to some of our core customers about that, and for them, it’s really important that they’re making these sustainable decisions. And a lot of it just goes back to reinforcing their own beliefs and their own values and wanting to be able to have a treat that speaks to those values that they feel good giving their pets. And our treats are full of really healthy, premium ingredients.

We use ingredients like chickpea flour, brown rice, sweet potatoes, and yeast, as a base for our treats. And then we add in those additional flavors to make it taste and smell like meat. So when you compare our treats to some other plant-based treats on the market, our treats are definitely more premium. We use high-quality ingredients. We use ingredients, you can trust, ingredients, you can understand. And so what a lot of times people look at the back of our packaging, they look at it and they’re looking for things to make them not want to buy our treats. They’re looking for things like corn, soy, wheat, canola oil, things like that. And we don’t have any of those in our products. We use coconut oil instead of canola oil. Our treats are great for dogs with allergies and dogs that have sensitive systems sensitive tummies. So they’re really great for all different types of breeds and sizes of dogs.

[00:20:42] Jennifer Chua: So with Bright Planet, you are reducing your pet’s carbon pawprint, which I love that phrase. And you’re helping address climate change concerns. Can you explain a little bit more of what you mean by that phrase?

[00:20:53] Katherine Ellison: If you compare carbon impact of a meat-based treat it’s much higher than the carbon impact of our plant-based treat. So essentially you as a pet owner, have the ability and the opportunity to help reduce your dog’s carbon pawprint by making changes like switching to Bright Planet treats or even, making changes like buying recyclable toys, reusing bags, when you’re ready to pick up your dog’s waste, not buying new plastic bags to pick up your dog’s waste. So there’s a lot of ways that you can reduce your dog’s carbon pawprint and changing the way you treat your pet is just one of them. And so we want to help enable people to do that by treating with our Bright Planet treats.

[00:21:40] Jennifer Chua: Have you made any other decisions in terms of packaging or manufacturing to create meaningful impact?

[00:21:47] Katherine Ellison: Yeah, that’s a great question. So we are based in Bloomington, Minnesota, which is right outside of the twin cities and both our packaging and our treats are manufactured within a 40 mile radius of our headquarters. And so that helps us reduce our overall transportation-related carbon emissions. And in addition, we love to support local companies and family-owned businesses. And so we really do make a conscious effort of which suppliers we’re going to work with and love to choose companies that are local to where we are headquartered. We are quickly transitioning next year into a recyclable bag. So it’ll be a number two recyclable bag that is able to be dropped off at a grocery store or anywhere else that, collects recyclable bags like grocery bags. In addition, whenever we ship our e-commerce orders or ship any of our online orders, we use all recyclable packaging materials. So they’re all padded mailers that just use, paper. You can put them right in your recycling bin.

[00:22:53] Jennifer Chua: I’d love to learn more about this tree planting program that you have. Why did you choose to plant trees? And what does that partnership really look like?

[00:23:01] Katherine Ellison: yeah. So we chose to play at trees because. Our company is really focused on sustainability. Of course, we love our dogs and cats, but there are so many other great organizations that are donating to animal welfare. Right. Our ethos is really sustainability and compounding climate change. And one of the best ways we can do that is by replanting areas of deforestation. And So we have partnered with the Eden reforestation projects. They are a 5 0 1 C3 that’s based in California and they plant all across the world in areas of deforestation and they pay their employees a livable wage. So they actually have a multicomponent mission, which is to lift communities out of poverty and also plant in areas of deforestation.

And so we were really aligned with their mission and what they do. And so we’ve partnered with them. Once a quarter, we tally up exactly how many bags we’ve sold each quarter, and we make a donation. For this year 2021, we’ve been selling our products since March and we’re on track to plant over 15,000 trees this year with Eden.

And next year we’ve really increased our distribution and we’ll be in much more stores. So we really anticipate that we’ll be able to plant even more trees next year. And it’s really a huge part of our message and our organization. We’re really proud of the fact that we’re able to help with these efforts and. Our core customer really understands and appreciates that part of our business. And it really speaks to our customer that again, is really interested in making sustainable choices as a very tangible thing. When you pick up a bag or when you pick up your bag to give your dog treats, you know that like actually one tree has been planted, which is a great trade-off, and it’s just something kind of more physical that people can relate to.

[00:25:03] Jennifer Chua: So back when you were coming up with this idea to create this business and you’re moving it forward into creating an actual business, did you have a point where you went to your husband, your science-minded husband and said, I want to create a pet product. I want it to be focused on sustainability. We want to go vegetarian. Did you have a conversation? Like what did he say? How did that conversation go?

[00:25:28] Katherine Ellison: So he was really open to becoming more of a flexitarian or reducatarian, both for the climate impact, as well as just health implications. We know that it’s healthy for us to eat more fruits and veggies, more legumes, more whole foods. And so he was definitely on board with that. When I approached him and wanted to start a plant-based treat company. He understood the vision and he understood the mission. He was actually the one to come up with the concept of planting a tree every time we sold a bag. And so that was a great idea that he was able to bring to really round out our core values of combating climate change. So he definitely understood the market and he thought it was a great idea.

And certainly, there was a little convincing that needed to happen. We have bootstrapped the company to date. So we have been using our own resources to fund the company. And so it was definitely a joint decision that we had to make as a family to decide to really bet on this idea. And bet that we could be first to market and fast to market. And when we launched it in March, we were the first plant-based treat company that made products that taste and smell like meat. And today we are still the only company that exclusively makes plant-based products. There are other people that have come on the market that are making plant-based treats that tastes like meat, but they also use things like salmon, eggs, other, Meat-based or animal-based proteins in their products. And there are also other brands who have meat-based products that have added plant-based products, but we are still the only a hundred percent plant-based company that is making meaty treats for our dogs. And we also plan to expand into cat as well.

[00:27:20] Jennifer Chua: So you did a Kickstarter and I’m sure you were able to get some feedback there from your customer base or your potential customer base, but when was the moment that you realized this could work?

[00:27:33] Katherine Ellison: We did our Kickstarter. We raised our money. We did our first formulation and we ran our first production. And I received in the first samples. I gave them to my dogs and my dogs absolutely went crazy over them. Like they were begging for more, they were doing tricks. They were really excited about the flavor of the treats. Some of my dogs are picky. Some of them aren’t picky, but just to see that initial reaction from them, Made me think, Hey, I think we have the recipe. Right? And so with our Kickstarter backers, when they would purchase a bag of our treats, we would also send them with a meat-based treat that was kind of similar to ours.

And we sent them home with, testing protocol. So we had them do two different tests. We had them do a first choice test, which is where you put our treats in one bowl and put our competitor treats in another bowl that were, meat-based you take your dog out of the room, you put the treats in the bowls and then you let your dog back in the room and you see what they choose first a number of times to make sure that there weren’t any bowl preferences, some dogs just prefer right bowls some dogs prefer left bowls. So we did that test and we also did just an acceptance test. Simply when you offer a treat to the dog, do they eat it? From our Kickstarter backers, we had over 97% acceptance rate, which means that over 97% of all dogs, when they’re offered our treat, they eat the treat. And then from our first choice test, over 72% of all dogs chose our plant-based treat first over an actual meat-based treat. And that was really exciting for us. The meat-based treat that we are testing with is actually a national brand that has very wide distribution. It’s a burger-flavored treat. And so when we heard that almost three out of four dogs chose our plant-based treat first, we knew that we had the smell right, because dogs make so many decisions based on smells.

And then with our acceptance tests, we knew that we really had that flavour. Because once they were trying our treat, there were wanting to continue eating our treat as well. That’s when we knew we had something that was going to be big. Because if the dogs don’t love your treats, the owner’s not going to go back and buy another bag.

[00:29:54] Jennifer Chua: What other feedback are you getting from your actual customers?

[00:29:59] Katherine Ellison: The number one thing that we hear is just that our dogs are obsessed with your treats. We hear things like our dogs will do their least favourite tricks to, in order to get your treats that they love every single flavour. That we put it on top of their food to encourage them to eat their food. And they gobble it up every single time. That they beg for more. And so that kind of feedback, just that the dogs are really loving the treats is wonderful for us, but more so we also get customers coming to us and saying, thank you for making a product like this, because I’ve been searching for something like this for so long, because maybe that owner is vegan or vegetarian and they want to be able to feed their dog, like they feed themselves. And so now they actually have a sustainable option and they’re excited to see the other products that Bright Planet is going to come out with because they know what’s going to align with their values and their dogs are going to love the taste as well.

Our product and our mission and our brand is really resonating with our target customer who is actually feeding a meat-based diet. Our target customer doesn’t feed beef products because they understand the carbon impact of beef, but they’re feeding like a fish-based diet or a poultry-based diet. And then they just want to have some really yummy treats that they feel good about giving their pets.

[00:31:24] Jennifer Chua: What do you think is the best option in terms of feeding your pet currently with what’s on the market in terms of sustainability?

[00:31:31] Katherine Ellison: There are so many different, great brands on the market. The way we feed our pets is also an extremely personal decision. And so there’s really no right or wrong way to feed your pets, especially from the Bright Planet perspective. We never will ask our customers to exclusively feed plant-based, it’s really just up to them what’s best for their pet and what the best decision is that they make with their veterinarian. We never ask for perfection. We only ask for progress. And small changes, and that really resonates with the people who love our treats. There are great brands on the market like wild earth. They’re a fully plant-based brand.

There’s another brand called Petaluma that they have a baked food that is plant-based, believe it’s a peanut butter flavour. There’s also companies that are trying to use more sustainable protein in their formulas. If you want to feed your dog a meat-based diet, if you look for locally caught fish or locally raised Meat they’re certifying bodies that will certify sustainable seafood. And that is now being used more in pet food. So there’s a lot of things that companies are doing to make even their meat-based products, more sustainable. So there’s really a shift and people are really looking for those types of certifications, if they’re feeding a meat-based diet, or if they feed a plant-based diet, there are so many great brands on the market today as well.

[00:33:02] Jennifer Chua: It says a lot about shifts in consumer behaviour, because even two generations ago, people were feeding their dogs like table scraps or kibble, but nothing special. And now we’re going towards sustainable or certified wild-caught fish. How has the experience of having a pet changed so much that we are now making these decisions about impact and health and everything for our dogs and cats? I just find this so interesting. Do you have anything to comment on that?

[00:33:35] Katherine Ellison: So the humanization of pets has been happening for a long time. We’re treating our pets more like family today than we ever have before. That change has been gradual, but especially with, the millennial generation, the gen Z generation, we are putting off having kids so early and instead people are having dogs. We’re really treating our pets as a member of our family. And because of that, our own values on how we feed ourselves are becoming more important to ourselves on how we feed our pets. And so that humanization trend, I mean, you see it everywhere. You see it in how we feed our dogs, how we dress our dogs, how we board our dogs, some dogs just don’t really just go to the traditional kennel of anymore. We have luxury resorts for dogs because our dogs are so important to us. And our pets are so important to us because they give us such great companionship and love. And so we want to treat them absolutely the best that we can. So that trend has been happening. We, the industry and people who watch trends in the industry, we know that that’s just going to continue to evolve and we’re going to continue to humanize our pets more, which in turn means that we’re going to spend more money on our pets, which is a really important, side of the pet industry.

For each individual pet, the owners are spending more per year than they have in the past. They’re spending more on treats on food, on veterinary care, on toys, all of that. And so that just continues to grow the market size. We also have different types of pet owners coming into the market. Younger pet owners, we have more people of colour that are owning pets. And so the types of people that own pets is actually getting greater. And we have lots more diversity in pet ownership as well. And so the industry will continue to grow and evolve and definitely shows no signs of slowing down and no signs of people reverting back to the way that they used to treat or feed their pets.

We’ll continue to see more innovation. More sustainable products. I mean, some of the exciting things that we have happening in consumables is that we have a number of companies in the pet space that are working on lab-grown meat, which is also something that’s happening in the human food space. And so soon in the pet industry, you’ll be able to buy treats or buy food for your pets, where it isn’t meat, but it’s been growing in a lab and. That’s going to come with a higher price point, but that’s going to also solve an important problem for certain pet owners who are wanting to feed meat to their pets, but they want it to be even more sustainable or humane. Really lab-grown meat is the most humane meat anyone could ever eat or feed their pets. And so there’s a lot of this innovation and a lot of exciting things happening in the industry right now.

[00:36:28] Jennifer Chua: About a decade ago, I worked in an office and one of the guys I worked with would get notifications on his phone. Alice went out for her walk, she really enjoyed her meal this morning. And I remember just thinking that was hysterical and then more so and more so you see these high-end doggy daycares like, you’re speaking about. So definitely we are treating our pets more like family members.

[00:36:54] Katherine Ellison: Yep. for sure. Both of my parents grew up on farms and so, they had a little bit of a different perspective on pets as well. And when we had pets growing up, I mean, they were spoiled rotten of course, but even the way that we treated our pets when I was growing up is very different than the way that I treat my pets today. My pets are my children. They’re our members of our family and their health and wellbeing and happiness is very important to us. And so we do everything that we can to make sure that they’re happy and healthy. That changes the way the products that we want to buy for them and the way that we treat them and all of that.

[00:37:35] Jennifer Chua: So if someone was going to try to make an impact in the pet space, what is a common reason that they might give up or walk away from this?

[00:37:42] Katherine Ellison: I mean, whenever you start a company, there is a monetary side of it that you have to be comfortable with. Especially when you think about creating a sustainable company. So our recyclable packaging is going to cost more than the packaging that we’re using today, but that’s a choice that we’re making.

So actually we will be taking a little bit of a margin hit, but we feel that making the change to a more sustainable packaging will benefit our bottom line down the road and help us gain more customers. So certainly when you think about creating a sustainable company, there are challenges. There are different hurdles. There are also opportunities like being able to be a certified B Corp or have a certification from the pet sustainability coalition that really shows that you’re a sustainable company, but those things also take time and money. And so having the resources to build a sustainable pet company, can be challenging as well.

There are a lot of great opportunities in the pet industry though, that you can take advantage of. This year I participated in the Minnesota cup, which is an entrepreneurship competition that’s put on by the University of Minnesota and we made it to the semi-finals in our division. There are different ways that you can win money. And what we were able to do with the Minnesota cup is we actually won the first evergreen and sustainable chemistry prize. And so that was awarded to us on behalf of the Minnesota pollution control agency. And so we were able to win some cash prizes and cash grants because we are a sustainable company. Also being a female founder. Having our business be women-owned, presents different opportunities for us to be able to apply for different grants and different programs, which we’ve taken advantage of. So while there are certainly challenges, starting a company or starting a sustainable company in the pet space, there’s also incredible opportunities.

And the. pet industry is very friendly. People are staying in the industry for a long time because they love what they do. They care about pets. There’s A lot of great networking opportunities and a lot of people that are really willing to help. And so we’ve been really fortunate to meet a lot of great people that have helped us along in our journey.

[00:40:12] Jennifer Chua: A couple episodes back. We had a chat with Brianna and Kristy from Decade Impact. And they work with B Corp’s or businesses specifically trying to achieve B Corp certification, which is a road that I’ve been going on this entire year. And it’s tremendously difficult. But the interesting thing about B Corp specifically or sustainable businesses is working together is so mutually advantageous, that it just helps lift the sustainability industry up. Are you finding other maybe not B Corp, but other brands in the pet industry in that space that you’ve had the opportunity to collaborate with?

[00:40:48] Katherine Ellison: There are definitely some plant-based brands that we’ve spoken to and we’re able to share mutual information with, there are some great communities of startup companies. So we have a, there’s a handful of great pet care startups in the twin cities that I am networked in with. And so we have a great kind of support system of local companies. I haven’t had as much of a chance to network with other plant-based companies, but really more so just network and find support from other startup founders, other female founders, other local founders, and really find ways that we can support each other and help each other out.

[00:41:29] Jennifer Chua: What about our children? You mentioned before that you’re not a parent of children, but you’re a parent of pets. How do you think that this work that you are doing and this journey that you’re on, how do you think this impacts them?

[00:41:41] Katherine Ellison: Children that are being raised today are going to be raised to be the most conscious generation that we’ve had and they’ll make important decisions, important buying decisions, put important policies in place so that we really can help combat climate change and make our world more sustainable. And so when they see their parents mirroring sustainable behaviour, they’ll be able to do the same and they definitely will understand the impacts and really the younger generation is already having such a voice and speaking out and demanding change and demanding policies. And when we think about how much meat we consume in the world. As I mentioned before, our pets consume so much meat and the younger generation is also going to just continue this trend of pet ownership, pet humanization, wanting sustainable products. And so their choices and their decisions and their voice is going to make such an impact in the way that we choose to nourish our pets, which in turn can better nourish our planet. We want to make these products and build this company and have this company be a nationally recognized CPG brand so that when you go into the store and you say, I want to buy a, plant-based treat, you think of Bright Planet. And that’s really our goal. And our goal is of course to be a profitable company, but we believe That we can be profitable and sustainable and give back and really have a strong message and make the world a better place just by making plant-based treats for pets.

[00:43:17] Jennifer Chua: So if you want to feed your pet, some delicious plant-based treats, where can we find you?

[00:43:23] Katherine Ellison: So in the USA today, you can find our treats on our website, which is brightplanetpet.com. We also sell on Amazon. Next year you will be able to find Bright Planet treats in 500 Pet Co.. You will also be able to find us in Hy-Vee stores in the Midwest. And today we are available in almost 400 Pet Valu stores all across Canada. We have a store locator on our website. You can pop in your zip code and you can find the store closest to you, whether you are in the United States or you’re in Canada.

[00:43:59] Jennifer Chua: And I did use the store finder and I did manage to find some, and my new puppy loves them.

[00:44:05] Katherine Ellison: Oh, wonderful. I’m so glad to hear that.

[00:44:08] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Katherine and her 100% plant-based pet treats visit brightplanetpet.com. In Canada? These sustainable vegan allergy-friendly treats are in-store at your local Pet Valu. You can follow along with Katherine on her mission to save the earth together with your pet one treat at a time on Facebook or Instagram @brightplanetpet

Romina Kwong from Eco-Friendly Events was inspired to help event organizers and business owners with their green initiatives after being a bridesmaid in a friend’s wedding. In this episode, we discover from Romina what steps can be taken to make larger-scale events more environmentally friendly. We then learn how to realistically green your holiday season at home, with small actionable tips that won’t take away from the joy of the occasion. We chat about where to buy gifts, how to wrap them and find eco-friendly alternatives for the biggest waste producers of your holiday gathering. We discuss the benefits of real versus artificial trees, talk about why you may want to skip balloons for New Year’s Eve and help you reduce waste and environmental impact with practical and affordable swaps to help spread cheer, this year, sustainably.

Organizing an in-person gathering this year? Visit ecofriendlyevents.ca/links to download a free eco-friendly party planning guide to help you reduce waste and your environmental impact over and over again. If you want to learn more about Romina and her holistic, accessible and realistic approach to environmental sustainability, visit ecofriendlyevents.ca. You can follow along with Romina and catch her live on Instagram, on her mission to help event organizers and businesses be eco-friendly on Facebook or Instagram at ecofriendly.events.

Links from this episode

• savethefood.com/guestimator
• FREE Eco-Friendly Party Planning Guide
• After Christmas – Tree Recycling Ideas 

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: The holiday season is approaching, and many of us are looking forward to gathering with our loved ones in person this year. Our holiday season celebrations do generate a lot of trash. Household waste increases more than 25% over the period of mid-November to New Year’s Eve with an extra 300,000 tons of waste heading to Canadian landfills during the last six weeks of the year. The good news is there are a lot of things you can do to reduce your environmental impact and make your holiday season a bit brighter. And this year now that extended families are gathering again, you have the opportunity to create even bigger impact.

 It’s more energy efficient to prepare one meal, decorate and heat one home than it is for several. And if you gather with friends or relatives that live locally over traveling by air, your holiday can be even more environmentally friendly. The holidays mean a lot to us, especially this year. And most of us are looking forward to the spirit of the season.

So it’s about taking practical, impactful actions that makes sense. And that mean the most. I asked Romina Kwong from eco-friendly events to join us this week and walk us through some small and actionable tips to green our holiday season.

So if you choose to skip the Christmas crackers or buy gifts secondhand, swap the Turkey for a plant-based alternative, or use your decade old artificial tree for just one more year. Romina has some realistic tips that you can take into the holiday season. And by rethinking waste this holiday, you have the opportunity to get the children around you involved and gently influence your loved ones while creating new, more mindful holiday traditions.

 Romina is the founder of eco-friendly events. She works with business owners and event organizers, helping ensure that events are using best practices in terms of sustainability. She holds a degree in environmental studies and economics and international development studies and is an advocate for environmental and social justice. But it wasn’t until she was a bridesmaid that she ever considered getting involved in the world of events.

[00:04:40] Romina Kwong: I ended up going back to school for event management. And while we were encouraged to volunteer a lot, just to get ourselves out there in the industry, I just realized how wasteful it was. And it sort of just like clicked in my brain that this is something that I could do there. Wasn’t anybody really leading this sort of like industry of connecting both environmental sustainability in the events industry. So. Shortly after I graduated and worked a little bit in the industry, I decided that I wanted to do something about it. And so I started eco-friendly events.

[00:05:13] Jennifer Chua: Do you remember a point in your life maybe way before this wedding, when you became interested in sustainability? Like, is there a moment that stands out in your mind?

[00:05:22] Romina Kwong: A couple of moments. So first was in grade four. My parents work at Panasonic and they had this like competition with energy star. And so every grade had their own like little project that you competed in. And so in grade four, I think we get to write maybe like a one-page document about why we cared about the environment I actually won that competition for my grade. And so it was really cool. And then from there it was just in grade 12 when I did like world studies and it was around the time where we had to decide what we wanted to study in university or what, like path we wanted to choose. And it sort of clicked again there. And so that just kind of has been sort of lifelong, but just popped up here and there

[00:06:06] Jennifer Chua: Did your parents influence this at all? Does your family have any traditions that were like sustainably minded?

[00:06:12] Romina Kwong: We were avid sorter household of like, this goes into recycling. This goes into the green bin and this goes into the garbage and just constantly like reusing or repairing things. So anytime I had holes in my clothing to this day, I still give it to my mom to repair instead of having to just buy something new, just because.

[00:06:32] Jennifer Chua: When you told your family and your friends that you were choosing events to make your impact on the world, what kind of feedback did you get at that time?

[00:06:41] Romina Kwong: It was more of like, huh, I never really thought about it that way. Or it’d be like, oh, that’s really cool, but I don’t think anybody gets it. And even now I think a lot of event planners or people in the events industry just think that I plan eco-friendly events. Whereas I really, I just want to work with event organizers and consult with them. So leave the planning to them and I’ll focus on sustainability.

[00:07:06] Jennifer Chua: When you’re working with a company or a corporation and maybe their event planner as a consultant, what are you looking for in terms of how to make their event more sustainable? Like, what is that connection that you’re making?

[00:07:19] Romina Kwong: So it obviously is dependent on when they bring me in, like what part of the planning process they’re in. So in an ideal world, if they bring me on from the very beginning, it’s figuring out where, which venue, like, where are you hosting it and what is available there? So what is their waste management look like? Do they have a recycling program. And what do they accept into those bins? What sort of energy does that building run on? Is it lead certified or is it green key certified, depending on where it is. And then from there, it’s just like, then we look at catering, so the different aspects of planning and just picking, like where can we make changes and impact that also aligns with your budget?

So also being realistic at the same time. So. Yes in an ideal world, I’d love to change everything over, but I know that’s not realistic. So what are the most important parts or points or values, I guess to the corporation, to the event planner and sort of figuring out ways that we can plan the event in alignment with those. So if it’s food waste, Okay. So let’s focus on catering and maybe we won’t focus necessarily on the venue, even though we could make a difference there.

[00:08:28] Jennifer Chua: When you began to get more into events and exploring this industry and figuring this all out, so you’ve had this experience as the bridesmaid and you began to realize what kind of waste events generate, and then went to school for it. Did you find anything surprising when you began to look at this world?

[00:08:46] Romina Kwong: I guess it just never occurred to me as like a festival attendee or just attending an event, just like behind the scenes, how much waste there actually is. And. Just how tired everyone is. Like you’ve been up or onsite since I don’t know, 6:00, 7:00 AM. And then you come onsite, do the event put on all the various fires that you need to and then at the end, everything just gets tossed. It’s dark outside. If it’s a festival and everyone just wants to go home. And so. With my lens. It just like clicked. You really do need an extra body or person that’s sort of in charge of that. Who can take a proactive approach versus reactive? Because yeah, been there sore feet need to change your shoes and nobody wants to do it. Including myself, if you’ve been there.

[00:09:34] Jennifer Chua: I can only imagine that something like a festival would be fairly complicated in this case, because I have many memories of attending many festivals. Like we live in Toronto and they’re here all the time. And just the amount of garbage leftover at the end and the water situation is usually problematic. Have you had the opportunity to work on any festivals?

[00:09:56] Romina Kwong: there was one. So with the wine and spirit festival, I think it was 2018, 2019. It’s hard to remember time these days. Um, They actually took a more proactive approach and they hired on a green team. So this was just shortly after, I finished school, so I hadn’t started my business yet. So I was part of the green team and I ended up leading the green team and it was really cool that they spoke to the waste management company to say, okay, so the cups that we’re using for all the drinks, they are compostable or biodegradable, and they can go into the green bin and we’re like, awesome. Sweet. And it wasn’t until all the vendors were like setting up and then they had all this garbage with them and we didn’t know which bin it went to, the plastic wrap, carrying like cases of juices or for example, we didn’t know if that could go into the recycling bin. Cause that was not something that was ever discussed with the waste management company, and they, at that point they had already left. And so I was just like, oh Yeah like there are so many other things. All the food vendors, all the things that they were serving food in. You see a lot of those brown containers now or like paper containers.

And we were like, I don’t know if this is lined with plastic, if it’s lined with wax, like can it go into the green bin? And so it was just at this point, a guessing game and. That’s when it really clicked. I was like, okay, like, this is something that people need to understand to really make that impact. And for me, it’s not about just for show, like I do care about what impact are we making? Are we actually doing something better for the earth, our planet and the people. Seeing that was just like, okay, there is something here, but we need to make it better.

[00:11:34] Jennifer Chua: And I find that businesses are becoming more responsive to sustainability. And I don’t know if that is because us as a society are driving that change, but how have you seen a change in business? Have you seen more people specifically looking for services like yours? Are they overall overarchingly really trying to make change in this area?

[00:11:57] Romina Kwong: I think so. I think it obviously depends on the generation. I think all the younger generations definitely care a lot more, it’s on their mind. They’re constantly trying to look for the eco-friendly or greener products. I think the disconnect is people will see all of these things they’re advertised as compostable, green and that sort of thing.

And all of these are just buzz words. Like they don’t actually know the definition and there isn’t really a definition, like, it’s not set across the board. If you say it’s green, what does that actually mean? And does it mean the same thing for your beauty products versus your, toothbrush or cleaning products?

There is no standard. And so I think that’s where the disconnect and struggle is, everyone has the best of intentions, but they’ve lack the knowledge both as a business, who’s trying to be more eco-friendly, but then also as a consumer as well, because they don’t totally understand the nuances.

[00:12:51] Jennifer Chua: And I think green, and compostable and biodegradable, like these are words that all of us have heard now. We all have kind of an understanding of what they mean, but what about carbon neutral? I’ve been hearing carbon neutral more and more. And even in terms of events, can you explain to me what that means? or what’s going on with carbon neutrality?

[00:13:11] Romina Kwong: It is becoming a trend it’s a little bit green-washing. There is a body that does certify things as carbon neutral, and they have a specific definition, to be carbon neutral is basically like the amount of carbon you’re admitting. You’re offsetting so that it becomes like zero, essentially. And for me personally, and my viewpoint, I think it’s a bit of green-washing because. If I’m emitting like a ton of carbon emissions and I’m then offsetting it. You’re not reducing anything. So you’re not necessarily making it better.

Same thing with carbon offsetting, you’re investing in maybe green technology, like a wind farm or solar panels. And yes, you are investing in a different type of technology that will help, but it’s not taking that carbon out of the atmosphere. And so when you hear like Elon Musk and other people in the world talking about carbon capture. That’s what they’re talking about is like taking the carbon out of the atmosphere and putting it back either into the ground or wherever and storing it. All of that is complicated. Um, But not at the same time.

[00:14:18] Jennifer Chua: What are some of the ways that we can reduce waste and green our holidays at home this year?

[00:14:24] Romina Kwong: There’s this website and tool that I love, it’s called the guest-imator. And you can input the amount of people, um, that are attending. What kind of eater are they, are they a light eater or a heavy eater, like average? And it’ll tell you how much exactly that You need. you can even account for like a couple of leftover meals or no leftovers, and then that way you’re significantly reducing the amount of food waste you might potentially have, or just like leftovers that you don’t want to continuously eat for weeks on end. So that’s one. Second, at least in my family, we gather so much and we have so many people that were never really using disposables, which is nice. But if you are that household that maybe only has like six sets, think about renting or think about asking family members to just bring their own.

I know it’s kind of like weird, but that’s where it starts is that shift in mindset to be like, Hey, we would love to just reduce the amount of waste. Do you mind bringing the set of plates for your own family? Like just your immediate family. It’s not like lugging a bunch over and, making sure you do have the proper bins at home and you are sorting and recycling and composting if you have that in your area. And also looking up what can and cannot be accepted into those bins as well. So that’s, what’s important. Just because it’s certified compostable doesn’t mean that the municipality or waste management company that serves your area will accept it. So like, for example, in the city of Toronto, all of those compostable materials, bamboo things, and all of that, They don’t accept in the green bin. So at the end of the day, you do have to throw it in the trash. So that’s something to be mindful of.

And then with decorations, is, are you reusing your decorations from years past or are you constantly buying new ones or can you invest may be in something that’s a little bit more expensive than you can reuse over and over again? Or maybe you just forgo the decorations, maybe you don’t need them. It really, really depends. And so that’s just a few key areas. I think that we can all think about reducing environmental impact.

[00:16:29] Jennifer Chua: So next weekend, we will be with my family, going to select our Christmas tree for the year. I was wondering if you had any input on whether an artificial tree is a better choice than a natural tree, or how do you feel about trees?

[00:16:42] Romina Kwong: It really just goes back down to something called the life cycle assessment that they do for products. And so it really depends on how long you’re going to be able to reuse that, um, fake tree. And you have to do that assessment and figure out which one lasts longer. From what I’ve read, the natural tree is better because most people don’t keep the fake one long enough for it to be worth it. So, um, that’s my 2 cents on that topic with regards to the tree. Like I know we have an artificial one, but we’ve been using it for years and years since I was a child. And so for us, it was just, my mom just didn’t want to deal with the hassle of having a real one. So I’ve never had a real one, which is, um, something that I might look into changing what I felt when I’m out on my own.

[00:17:29] Jennifer Chua: I will look into the product life cycle of the artificial tree. But yeah, I think it was 20 years.

[00:17:35] Romina Kwong: Yeah. It was like 15 Or 20 years. Yeah, we’ll definitely have to look it up. but I think if something like that, where if you, most people don’t keep it that long. So then it negates it being better than the real tree.

[00:17:47] Jennifer Chua: What kind of sustainable swaps can we make when considering Christmas tree decor?

[00:17:52] Romina Kwong: There’s a lot of Pinterest ideas of using like dried fruit and that sort of thing, which I think is cool. Cause then at the end of the day, yes, you can put it into your green bin. At the same time, I’ve heard people argue that while you’re just wasting fruit, which I’m like, okay, like it’s a bit of both. And so again, it comes back down to the same sort of conversation we had about the tree. How long are those decorations going to last you, are you going to keep reusing them? Or does the natural actually work better? I’m all about really what works for your lifestyle? Are you in a house? Do you have a storage locker? Can you store these things? And if you can’t then go with the natural. And if you can, amazing. Then keep reusing it for as long as you can . As a kid, we had these candy canes on our tree for years and years. Like nobody ate them, but it was just something that we kept and just kept reusing. It’s just figuring out what works for you. So not necessarily swapping everything out, all of a sudden, it’s just, what do you have? Can you continue using it and not buy new things?

[00:18:53] Jennifer Chua: I mean, my mom used to do that. Change up the Christmas tree theme every couple of years.

[00:18:58] Romina Kwong: Which is nice aesthetically, but not so much for the environment. If you’re tossing everything out.

[00:19:04] Jennifer Chua: This is one area too, where we like to keep traditions and joy. Like if you, if you do purchase an ornament from, I don’t know, a big box store or something, but it’s meaningful to you and you remember what year this was and it’s impactful on your life. That’s wonderful. But you’re just suggesting not to, do a complete tree decor overhaul every single year. Right.

[00:19:27] Romina Kwong: exactly, exactly. Use what you have. If things get broken, like if a pet bumps into the tree or your cat climbs a tree and things get broken, obviously after a while you only have so many ornaments that are left. So yes, if you are buying new ones and you’re going to keep them in good condition. Then yes. But Yeah also those natural swaps are a good idea as well. It really just depends. I won’t do it. It’s just too much effort for me. And I know that. And so you have to figure out yeah. What works for you, what works for your holidays? Cause it’s already stressful enough.

[00:20:00] Jennifer Chua: And our tradition around Christmas cards, sustainably speaking. What are some swaps we should make there? Should we be going to e-cards? Should we still be doing the glossy family photo cards and sending those out? What do you think we should do with cards this year?

[00:20:16] Romina Kwong: I think it really depends if you are doing the ones with the photographs, digital is a little bit better, but I don’t know if it’s for your grandmother who posts it on her fridge every year. Maybe send her a physical one. And I think you can always do a combination. I think it depends. For the older folks who are in your family. Maybe they want the physical because that’s what they’re used to. So send them the physical. And then maybe all your cousins and siblings, you can just send them an electronic one because they’re okay with that. They’re like, great. We’ll just like put it in an album or one of those like digital picture frames.

Figure out always that work and then just mixing and matching. Like you don’t have to do one or the other. It’s not an all or nothing. And that’s never, my approach. It’s just, maybe you try a couple of electronic. Maybe it’s two people you send electronic cards to, and then everybody else gets a physical one or vice versa

[00:21:09] Jennifer Chua: Then when you sit down to actually wrap all of those presents that we have acquired , are there some pretty easy, sustainable swaps that we can make when it comes to wrapping our gifts?

[00:21:19] Romina Kwong: I’ve started using like the brown craft paper. If you’re ordering anything online, starting now start saving those boxes and just reusing them. I know last year, because our family gathering for Christmas was a lot smaller. Nobody wrapped gifts in like proper things, they just like use newspaper, just like put it in a box and like tied some string around it. Because they knew that I wouldn’t want wrapping paper. So. Things like that, Or is there like a gift bag you can reuse, or wrapping it using like a scarf that you’re also gifting to them? Or maybe it’s like a tea towel and stuff like that.

Again, trying to be creative and you don’t have to do it for all of them. I know, like for kids, especially the joy of actually like ripping open a present is part, is part of it. And so, yeah, maybe it’s using newspaper or it’s using that craft paper so that you can recycle it at the end of it.

[00:22:13] Jennifer Chua: it comes to gifting or sustainable giving, really have you come across any really great gift ideas that we could use this year when it comes to looking how to maybe reduce our carbon footprint or make our gifting strategy more eco-friendly?

[00:22:30] Romina Kwong: Gifting services or just like helping out a friend. I actually saw a post recently on Instagram that made me rethink some things, as well is, maybe your friend doesn’t need, I don’t know a thing, like a physical item, but they need, they want a night off. And so you can babysit their kids for a night.

[00:22:47] Jennifer Chua: can I just interrupt and say that it’s the best gift

[00:22:49] Romina Kwong: Yes. Yeah, I’m happy to babysit Jennifer.

Maybe it’s a gift card, cause there’ve been saving up to buy something that they, they really needed. Think acts of service, when you think of like, the five love languages acts of service is what can you do for the person that will actually be such a huge help, that won’t cost you too much money, maybe a bit of your time. And you’re not just giving stuff for them to just pile on in their house.

[00:23:19] Jennifer Chua: I’ve received some really interesting gifts lately. And one of them was a box of frozen scones. So someone had taken the time to make scones in various flavours and then froze them. And then I get to put them in my freezer and then, bake on a whim as I feel like I would like one. And that is a really beautiful gift idea that is not coming from a store it’s really heartfelt and really, there was no plastic involved in the actual packaging and gifting it to me.

[00:23:49] Romina Kwong: Yes. Yes. And gift cards. I know they’re not the nicest or whatever, but, um, like I love that I get an electronic gift card. It just sits in my inbox and then I delete it once I use it. And instead of having now this plastic card and it’s like, what am I going to do with it after I scanned it. Right. I think the services are the best. So it’s like maybe it’s buying somebody a gift card to their favourite salon or the salon they go to or where they can get their hair and makeup done and maybe their nails done and things that people actually use or even grocery gift cards. I think those are the best because everybody needs to buy groceries and those are the best because it’s just useful. I’m the type of gift-giver that likes to find things that are unique, but also useful to the person that they’ll actually use rather than just be like, oh, thank you and then just set it aside. Are the most wasteful.

[00:24:42] Jennifer Chua: I think when it comes to children’s toys as a business owner, I’m looking to stock my shelves with multipurpose toys that are battery free, that are ethically made, all of those things. But as a parent, I am very much going to Facebook marketplace and Kijiji and going for used options for toys and because my child is used to it, she really doesn’t mind. She’s still asking for this plastic toy inside a plastic toy with batteries that I am resisting very hard this year. But overall, what do you think about buying used gifts or upcycling gifts for the holidays?

[00:25:26] Romina Kwong: I love that idea, especially with sometimes with toys, especially where it’s like, they want the thing, cause they’ve seen it on TV. And then it’s like, after a few months you don’t want that toy anymore or they kind of moved on. And so I think getting things second hand, whether it is from Facebook marketplace, which not everybody loves, it’s not the best experience all the time, but it is a good option, or going to your local value village or Goodwill or secondhand or thrift store, where you can buy things second hand, or is there anybody in your family? With us, for example, there’s a lot of female cousins and so all the clothes continuously get like moved around and same thing with toys. And so, I think that’s a great idea. I think it’s just, you need to shift that mindset for people to not think it’s weird. Because you’re like, why would I give somebody something used? Well, do they really need it new? Do they need all that plastic? And Packaging with it, or can you just wrap it nicely in a scarf? And that’s also how they carry around that set of toys or that set of whatever it is you’re gifting.

[00:26:31] Jennifer Chua: Are we as a society making shifts there, like, do you think this is becoming more accepted?

[00:26:37] Romina Kwong: I think for certain things we’re getting there. So for clothing, for example, like thrifting is now trendy, which I’m not mad about because it is a good thing, but, I think we still have a long ways to go with like gifting and things like that.

[00:26:51] Jennifer Chua: And what about regifting?

[00:26:52] Romina Kwong: I don’t have a problem with that. I just, I feel like if it’s going to be a better use for somebody else, I think again, it’s that shift in culture and with all of us if you’re going to be offended that somebody regifts something… as long as it’s not regifted back to the same person, I think you’re good. I think you’re ok. If we’re more thoughtful and purposeful with the gifts to begin with, then we wouldn’t necessarily have the regifting problem or issue to begin with. Right. Like if you think more carefully about it, okay. So, and so needs this, or maybe buy something edible, then that way, you know, it’s consumed and somebody will eat it. And that’s such a great idea. I think even like at weddings for the party favours, like just give them a cookie with your name on it or something. Cause then somebody will eat it, whether it’s that person or somebody in their family. And so, Yeah. edible gifts.

[00:27:44] Jennifer Chua: Favors is a really big one, I think, in terms of waste, any kind of party favours.

[00:27:50] Romina Kwong: all those loot bags from kids’ birthday party.

[00:27:53] Jennifer Chua: In episode one of this podcast, we had a conversation with Rebecca Saha from tiny toy company and she has a reloot bag. So she collects toy debris and toy garbage, and then creates these loot bags with upcycled toys. It’s Amazing.

So you’ve chucking your tree down and you’ve lovingly stored all of your ornaments that maybe you bought at the local Christmas fair. You’ve put those in your basement. You’re packing up your tree. So Every year we trim the branches off and put it in the backyard and we drill holes in it. So the bugs can live in it. And then in spring, we compost it and I’ve actually seen some like Christmas tree bits, put in the ravine, which I don’t know if it was a good idea, but I think it’s better than just checking it at the end of the season. Do you have any comments what to do after we’re done our trees?

[00:28:47] Romina Kwong: I think that’s a great idea. Again, I think it depends on where you live. Like I’m in the heart and core of Toronto where there isn’t a ton of greenery. And so I think, you need to pick and choose what works and what doesn’t. So for you, Jennifer, it works because where you live has a ravine. And so maybe yeah, you can leave it outside in your backyard. And for those people who don’t, then you can’t. I don’t have a huge, like thought on it. I think if you figure out what the waste is, if the city, like what they do with it, with their trees, like call them and ask them, or email them and see like, what is it that you do with it? And figuring out that I think is always good, a good option as well as like, where does it actually end up? I think, yeah, figuring out where it ends up in if there is an alternative. Maybe it is cutting it up and putting it out in the back, or maybe you use it as firewood. Or like kindling, it depends. When you’re rethinking things in events, it’s what do you care about and how can you reduce where it aligns.

[00:29:47] Jennifer Chua: I think city dwellers too. We have a different issue there. In that, for example, I’ve heard use potted trees, but then where are you going to plant them afterwards? If we live in this urban environment, we have to get a permit to plant a tree. Where are we going to plant it afterwards? And then if you live in a condo, for example, might be a better choice to go for an artificial tree, because once you then have to wrap the tree in plastic at the end and bring it down the elevator. Now you’re putting out a big, huge plastic bag every year as well. Maybe it would be worth going on Facebook marketplace or Kijiji or whatever, and finding one of those trees that someone’s getting rid of that’s artificial but still perfectly good for use.

[00:30:32] Romina Kwong: Or if you’re buying it new, you’re keeping it for that 15, 20 years and, keeping it the full life cycle. I think in my condo specifically, they don’t even allow, the natural trees like you have to go with artificial. So something to keep in mind as well. It’s just, yeah, you have to adapt to where it is you reside.

[00:30:50] Jennifer Chua: One of the things that I think of when I think of Christmas is that movie, Christmas vacation with the Griswold family and the dad completely blanketing the entire house in Christmas lights. And a lot of us have switched to led lights. But what do you think about holiday lighting? Is that impactful on the environment?

[00:31:10] Romina Kwong: Something that helps is putting a timer on those plugs or having it on a smart plug and where you can set a timer. So maybe it’s on for only a few hours at night, and then it shuts off. But it’s also, thinking about more of like a fire hazard too, is just don’t necessarily want to maybe leave it on all night. Now that most people already have led lights. It’s like, that’s great. And that’s a huge switch, just even like from an economic standpoint, like, does your electricity bill go up, significantly during the holidays? Make it a game. I like to make it a game to try and keep our bill as low as we can. And so figuring out ways. Either set it on a timer or maybe only during certain days, um, and figuring out a schedule that works

[00:31:53] Jennifer Chua: You mentioned before the guestimator, which I think is absolutely brilliant, but when it comes to holiday meals, I can just imagine the amount of waste that is generated in every home. Right. Do you have any tips on how to reduce our waste when it comes to actual food waste over the holidays?

[00:32:11] Romina Kwong: yeah. So figuring out how many people you’re actually serving using that tool as a good, just gives you a rough idea of how much you actually need. Not making the whole bag of potatoes. For example, maybe you make like half, I don’t know. If there are any leftovers that is actually consuming it, give it away. I know with my one aunt, whenever we gathered at her house, she puts all the leftover food in Tupperware containers and sends it home with every person. So first it’s figuring out, like, what are you going to make? And it starts really from the very beginning from the prep is at the grocery store. Do you need all of those things? How many people are actually coming over? Will they eat everything or are you just making it just so you have a nice spread for Instagram. So it’s rethinking that from the very beginning and then cooking and then storing the food properly as well.

So. Not leaving it out for hours and hours, and then it goes bad and then you can’t eat it. Another thing you can probably do is actually just donate the food. Can you pack it up? Can you give it to people in shelters or can you give it to, people who are unhoused, for example, in the city of Toronto, we have so many, unfortunately at this time? And so can you gift them things that from the leftovers or even on Christmas day Christmas eve.

[00:33:26] Jennifer Chua: So once you’ve packed up your tree and we’re looking forward to New Year’s Eve, I have some specific thoughts on balloons and glitter. And I was wondering if you could walk us through how sustainable balloons and glitter are, and maybe what our choices are. If we want to make better choices in that area.

[00:33:44] Romina Kwong: They aren’t they aren’t sustainable or green, especially the latex ones. Once you use them, that’s it like they have to go in the garbage, there is no other alternative. With the foil balloons. You can reuse them, you can release the air, reuse it. So I’ve actually had some friends, like message me, cause I’ve liked their photo on Instagram. They’re like, it’s been reused. Like we’ve reused these numbers and it’s like, okay, good to know. I’m not trying to guilt-trip you. But, it’s just funny that they know that people think of that. So, if you can use the foil options and you know, you’re, going to reuse them. I’ve seen people give them away or trade them on like buns or pals on Facebook. So those groups, where people are trading. Good for good. So you can look into that and specifically for like birthdays. Once you’re done with like those big celebrations, you can give them away and reuse them. So that’s one.

With the glitter, I would say try to just avoid like that. Those are tiny pieces of plastic, that we don’t necessarily think about. We just think it’s fun. I mean, I know for my mom and I’m sure other mothers don’t love the glitter clean up. So I think for both reasons, maybe not use them. I know there’s this company called botanical paperworks based out of Winnipeg and they do see paper and they have actually seed confetti. So they embed wildflower seeds into theirs. That is local to Canada and you can actually plant them afterwards. So I’ve had some friends, like plant them in like a small pot and just see them grow. They will, degrade over time and just in natural air and water or like natural elements. So I think that’s an option. Fireworks and sparklers are not the greatest. You can’t totally say no to everything. Just like, that’s my approach with it. It’s like you have to be a little bit realistic.

[00:35:32] Jennifer Chua: And what about biodegradable balloons? I’ve seen these everywhere. Can you talk a little bit about those?

[00:35:37] Romina Kwong: That is just a whole lot of greenwashing cause technically anything and everything is biodegradable. The headphones that we’re wearing right now are biodegradable. They will degrade over time. But that doesn’t mean that it’s good. Depending on what the object is or whatever it is, it can potentially leach chemicals back into the groundwater, into our earth.

And so it really depends on what they’re made of. So I’ve seen them as well. I think if you can avoid them, avoid them And use the foil ones, if you can reuse them for as long as possible, or just avoid them all together.

[00:36:10] Jennifer Chua: And then I guess choose champagne or sparkling wine from local producers. If you can.

[00:36:17] Romina Kwong: well, champagne is only technically champagne if it comes from the area of France, that champagne. So, maybe if you don’t live in that area, um, and you’re trying to stay local. Yeah. Find something that’s sparkling, that’s local. There’s a ton of wineries, especially in the greater Toronto area. If you’re close to Niagara, like there are so many wineries out there that use like wind power or solar panels. I think it’s biodynamic wines. I think that’s the word. Where they’re yeah. Trying to be as sustainable as possible in all aspects of the wine production process. And so looking that up as well, or just supporting local where it’s not travelling as far, especially in a glass bottle.

[00:36:57] Jennifer Chua: Our parties at home, why are making our events and our parties more sustainable, so important.

[00:37:03] Romina Kwong: It’s an aspect of life, right? Like we want to celebrate lives. You want to celebrate special occasions and anniversaries and if you’re going to be eco-friendly in every other aspect, why not events. Especially with the large-scale productions, like weddings and festivals, where it’s potentially only once in a lifetime or once a year, it has such a huge impact.

Like in those three days that a structure Is erected in, Yonge & Dundas square, or like another park. There’s so much that goes into it. And then so much that gets disposed of. And so that still has an impact because events are not going away. Especially now. I don’t want to say the pandemic is over, but it’s like coming slowly to an end? And we’re getting back to some sort of normalcy events are coming right back. There are so many events that are coming back in 2022 for in-person. You’ve seen a few of them now, a lot of like vendor markets are back and it makes me so hopeful and so happy, but it’s a part of life. And if you’re going to be eco-friendly in other parts, why not this as well?

[00:38:05] Jennifer Chua: And all of these swaps. All of these are like small tips. I can only imagine that these are also saving you financial costs. They’re saving you money as well. Right?

[00:38:16] Romina Kwong: Definitely. So again, not always. And it’s not necessarily a misconception because yes. Some things will cost more, but other things don’t. Like if you borrowed something, what is that costing you? Maybe a bit of gas to go get it, which you would have spent anyway to go to the store. So in some ways, it is saving you money. If you’re asking relatives to bring their own dishes to your house, that’s dishwashing you don’t have to do. You’re saving the waste that you’re tossing out into the trash and you’re not purchasing anything.

I think just resetting and reshifting or shifting your mindset is asking yourself, always, do you need this? Do you need to buy this first and foremost? And then can you get it Second hand, or can you borrow it or can you like rent it from somewhere? That way sort of like going into that circular economy where you’re reusing things and keeping things in use rather than using it and then disposing of it. And then think of like recycling and organics and compostable as sort of your last resort. Can you reduce first, if you can’t get it? Are there ways that you can get it where you’re borrowing it and renting it? So it’s secondhand?

[00:39:33] Jennifer Chua: so with all of this that you’ve learned from working in events and seeing how people are responding to these ideas, are you hopeful for the future?

[00:39:42] Romina Kwong: I am hopeful. I think the pandemic really made us all slow down and rethink how we are living. and I think that’s the most important part. And where it starts is we can’t continue living the way we’ve always been living. And this pandemic has really shown all of us that.

[00:39:59] Jennifer Chua: And we’re craving that connection and really wanting to connect with our loved ones in person again,

[00:40:04] Romina Kwong: Yeah,

[00:40:05] Jennifer Chua: making some of these swaps can only bring us to a brighter future.

[00:40:10] Romina Kwong: So we actually have a planet to live on and continue gathering together.

[00:40:13] Jennifer Chua: Organizing an in-person gathering this year? Visit ecofriendlyevents.ca/links to download a free eco-friendly party planning guide to help you reduce waste and your environmental impact over and over again. If you want to learn more about Romina and her holistic, accessible and realistic approach to environmental sustainability, visit ecofriendlyevents.ca. You can follow along with Romina and catch her live on Instagram, on her mission to help event organizers and businesses be eco-friendly on Facebook or Instagram at ecofriendly.events.

Melanie Cote from Social Enterprise Do Good Donuts is using donuts to teach young adults with barriers to employment job readiness skills. In this episode, we talk about the realities that Melanie faces as the parent of a child with Williams syndrome and learn how she’s changing how people think about hiring youth with intellectual disabilities. We discover why youth with these challenges face an 85% unemployment rate, how Do Good Donuts connect their trainees with fulfilling and meaningful work in their community, why this inclusive employment matters to all of us, how business owners can support these initiatives and why, they’ll want to, why Melanie chose to start with donuts, and how she’s used the pilot program to bake hopeful futures.

If you want to learn more about Melanie and how she’s helping youth with intellectual disabilities to train for mainstream jobs visit https://www.dogooddonuts.org/ Want to help support the trainees by ordering some donuts for yourself? Or have the team train some young people for your company? Interested in having us train young people?  You can connect with Melaine and follow along on her mission to bake brighter futures on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram 

Links from this episode

• Do Good Donuts
• The Leslieville Farmer’s Market
• Williams syndrome
• Hire persons with disabilities, Government of Canada

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: If you’re visiting a farmer’s market in Toronto on a Sunday morning and happen to come across a booth selling donuts, it’s worth taking a closer look. You may stumble across some delicious flavors like Mohito, blue slushie, lavender, lemon sugar, rainbow sprinkles or even creative seasonal favorites like Turkey stuffing. And you may be enthusiastically greeted by Alma an eight year old. Founder Melanie’s daughter and the reason Do Good Donuts exists.

Do Good Donuts focuses on more than just these classic confections. It’s an employment social enterprise that hires and trains young adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. Offering them the job before the job to help bridge the gap between programs and the employers that are waiting to hire them. Do Good Donuts has just wrapped their pilot program. They hired three young people with disabilities and ran a booth at a local farmer’s market all summer.

Melanie Cote is a mom of two. She has Alma and then also an 11 year old son. She spent her career in advertising, working on copy and creative strategy. But when Alma was born with intellectual disability, Melanie wanted to do something to improve the outlook for her daughter’s future. So three years ago, she began to look into ways to help young people who are at the age now where employment can make all the difference, knowing that she needed to do something to create change in this world. For Alma, for her son, for her community, her family and other families facing similar challenges.

Melanie grew up in the town of Espanola. If you listen to the episode with an Anong Beam from Beam Paints, it’s near there, in Northern Ontario. Located close to Manitoulin island, Melanie’s father was a high school teacher there and the coach of the basketball team. The school was located near a first nations reserve and half of the kids he taught were indigenous. He helped them with basketball. And then also with their homework and encouraged the kids to continue their schooling. When he passed his funeral was held at the church on the reserve. And Melanie recalls that it was full of former students. Now grown men, recounting the stories of how her father had profoundly influenced how they thought about their futures. How he had changed their world. And how his support had meant everything.

[00:04:47] Melanie Cote:  I think it matters. My dad was a teacher and his approach to teaching was very inclusive and to make sure that everybody, who wanted to, got to college, even if maybe didn’t look like it was their path, like he was very committed to making sure his students got where they wanted to go in life. And I think that rubbed off on me and onto my sister, she’s a teacher. And I guess in some way, right now I am too a little bit. So there you go. I never thought of that before.

[00:05:14] Jennifer Chua: When you hear Melanie’s story, it’s obvious to see her father’s influence. She’s providing opportunities to young adults who otherwise would be left behind. She has a lot of ideas of how we as a society can support these initiatives. And we’ll go into that in a bit. And Melanie’s week with her trainees is jam packed. It’s her intent in the next session to find ways to scale back on her incredibly long hours and spend more time at home. The piece of Melanie’s story, that is the most interesting to me, is why she decided to do all of this in the first place.

[00:05:49] Melanie Cote: Do Good Donuts. My favorite topic.

[00:05:52] Jennifer Chua: Could you tell me how you came up with the idea to create basically a social enterprise that’s focused on donuts. And how you actually move that forward into an idea?

[00:06:03] Melanie Cote: Do Good Donuts, a social enterprise that sells donuts. First of all, people love donuts. Secondly I really wanted to create an employment skills training program that would be relevant and lead to jobs that already existed. So when you’re pushing water uphill, I think you pick the smallest tail to start. And a small hill for me is seeing that there are always job postings for people looking for people to work at McDonald’s and Tim Horton’s and burger king and Starbucks, and second cup. Those that those jobs were available. And despite the branding difference between them, a lot of the tasks are the same.

So if you teach someone how to prepare the ketchup and napkin and cup station at McDonald’s, you’re also teaching them how to prepare the sugar and stir stick packets at Starbucks and you’re teaching them how to do the little stand with the garbages at Tim Horton’s. And when you think about making a sandwich, you put something on the bottom and then you put a thing in a thing and a thing, and you put something else on the top, but you make an egg sandwich and a breakfast sandwich, the same way you make a pizza the same way you make a sub the same way.

So how could we create somewhere that would cover as many of those job tasks as possible to allow people to then be ready to work at any number of businesses. And how could we do it in a non-branded way so that Starbucks and McDonald’s and Tim Horton’s and burger king and pita pit and pizza, pizza, and subway, and the little family restaurant down the street, who’s always really appreciated their neighbor with down syndrome, but had no idea how to welcome them in the restaurant,could all see that they had the skills they needed to be effective more quickly at work and be ready to succeed and not needing that three or six or nine months of more supported employment to be able to be a valuable member of their staff. So the idea for Do Good Donuts was, first of all, people love donuts and it’s fun and it’s friendly and welcoming and they’re not perfect.

So if our staff is starting out and they’re doing donut finishing no donut is perfectly perfect. They’re all a little bit unique and it’s okay. that they are maybe are a little bit lopsided or there’s too many sprinkles, or there’s not quite enough sprinkles. It’s a safe space for learning and I donut shop and cafe has the ability to be a donut shop, but also do other baking also make sandwiches also have soup. So food prep, and beverage service and hot beverages and cold beverages. So the idea for Do Good Donuts was really how do we create a lab, that serves food, that has all of these skills checked off. And then what menu do we need to create to be able to teach all those skills? So it’s almost a backwards process of how do we build the training program that the hiring partners need, and what do we need to make in order for the people to be able to practice the skills.

[00:09:12] Jennifer Chua: Your daughter who inspired really you to go on this journey? Can you tell me a little bit more about her?

[00:09:18] Melanie Cote: Oh, my gosh Alma. Alma’s syndrome, Williams syndrome is sometimes called the opposite of autism because kids with Williams syndrome, generally speaking, not all, have an insatiable social drive. The need to connect with people is one of the driving forces of her life. And yet the inability to read social cues, the inability to follow social norms, a lot of those same challenges that are associated with autism. And that makes it difficult for some people who are autistic to make connections, exist within people with Williams syndrome only they’re overly friendly and overly social. It’s that next step? How do you then make a lasting relationship? That is a big gap in her learning. So she is both a fluffy ball of sunshine and light and very sad that she doesn’t have a best friend. She is doing really well in school all things considered. She does have a, very large nonverbal learning disability. She has some other things that make it hard for her at school, but all in all her health has been good, which is excellent. 80% of kids with William’s Syndrome I’m have open-heart surgery in the first year and ongoing heart surgery throughout their lives. And she’s so far in the 20% that has not required heart surgery, which is amazing for us. I’m very grateful for that, but she is just so delighted that Do Good Donuts exists. She comes to the tent, she yells “welcome to Do Good Donuts”, to all the people. She tells everybody at school to come and get the donuts. My son wrote a report on Do Good Donuts last year. It has been really something that’s brought us together and has allowed us to have a common interest and a common goal. It’s certainly become a big part of our family life. But even more than that, our kids recognize it as something where we have a donut shop, but it helps people. And so they’re really seeing that social enterprise connection in it, which I’m also excited about. That that’s managed to shine through for them is really meaningful to me.

[00:11:25] Jennifer Chua: I’d like to discover more why you chose to start a social enterprise.

[00:11:30] Melanie Cote: There were a number of things that happened. There was sort of a, a slow and steady climb up of a rise of stairs. When my daughter was five months old, we learned that she had a genetic condition called Williams syndrome, and that was really going to shape her future and what her life would be like. But it was also going to shape our future and what our lives would be like as a family, as her parents, my son’s life as her sibling. So that was sort of the first moment of change in my life. And then as the years went by, I spent a lot of time volunteering for the national syndrome that supports her disability. I met a number of other people who were at different points in the journey. I’ve met people right when they were diagnosed where I was all those years ago, and also people who are much further ahead of us on that journey, which is a really interesting window to the future.

So the more I learned about that window to the future was sort of the next step on the journey. And then the third step that I think probably the, the one that was the most. Influential in this decision where on one hand I had this incredibly deep and interesting and somewhat painful conversation with a family who were moving out of their town because their late teenage daughter was never going to be able to find work in that community.

So they were uprooting themselves from this place. They had lived for many years to move to a larger center where there might be a possibility that she might have a job one day. And to me, that was a heartbreaking thing because at the same time, in that week, in my career in advertising, I was working on a corporate social responsibility campaign for a large corporation who was partnering with the special Olympics and really excited to talk about the hiring program they were putting in place to ensure that young people with intellectual and developmental disabilities would have the opportunity to work.

And the town, this family lived in, had two outlets of that large corporation. And yet at the ground level, they knew that they wouldn’t hire in the community because they were hiring other teenagers. Their own kids’ friends. They were hiring the kids from the football team. They were hiring other kids.

And the huge disconnect between what the corporate world was doing in terms of taking credit for all of this hard work and ensuring that people would have jobs and how that was actually translating to the families was a broken system. And I wondered if there was a way to create something in between that could serve the young people and serve their journey on their way to employment, but also catch the eye and understand what those national hiring partners needed for the people who were actually interviewing and doing the jobs to say yes. And in that moment, the germ of an idea, the seed of Do Good Donuts came to life. How could we create something that bridges all of the work that I’ve done in my volunteer life for, and around, and with, family supporting people with disabilities and all the work I was doing in my corporate life to build, to build a bridge?

[00:14:36] Jennifer Chua: So before your daughter was diagnosed, did you ever think about this whole concept of like barriers to employment? Did that ever come up in your life

[00:14:46] Melanie Cote: No, no, I never thought about it. I did have a small glimpse in high school. Because in high school, I wanted to start a high school newspaper. And to do that, you need to have a staff member. A teacher has to be your advisor, and all of the teachers were already doing other clubs. And the only club, or the only teacher that wasn’t involved with the club was the life skills.

At that time, we call it the program life skills teacher, and he agreed to be the advisor, as long as I would put some of his students on our staff, because they had never been at a club before? And none of the other clubs had made space for them. And of course I have a Rebel’s heart and I didn’t know that they didn’t ever have a club.

And so of course I, I hardly agreed and they were amazing members of our staff. They did the photocopying, they did the stapling, they did all the organization. They deliver the papers to all the classrooms. And at the end of that year and the following year, I was the editor for two years. They had their picture in the.

In a club photo, which they, up until that point had only had their one personal photo in, you know, in their grade level. And for all of them, they were so thrilled because it was the only time they appeared in the yearbook more than once. So I knew that there were, I knew that there was things, there were things happening and that there were gaps in the lives and the community, and the sense of belonging for people with developmental disabilities and learning disabilities. But it hadn’t translated into the rest of my life until I had Alma. And then I remembered very clearly how much that picture in the yearbook meant.

[00:16:24] Jennifer Chua: Do you remember how the conversation with that teacher went at all? Like, how that conversation with him would have gone that would have influenced this decision to start this club under his guidance?

[00:16:36] Melanie Cote: I wanted to do something that no one had made space for me to do. And he wanted to do something that no one had made space for him to do, which was bring out a sense of community and belonging to his students. And I wanted to bring some different perspectives to the student body that maybe people weren’t thinking about.

So I, I don’t remember the specific words, but I do remember both of us feeling like the problem we had was the same, even though it was very different. That I wanted to feel like my Merry band of misfits should have a club that wasn’t cliquey and it didn’t exclude people because they were gay. We had a gay writer on our staff who was very quietly gay and not really openly out. We had an indigenous writer on our staff, I come from Northern Ontario, our school was split. It was half people who were not indigenous and half people who were indigenous. There was not a lot of other you know, vibrant backgrounds in small town, Northern Ontario, all that time ago.

But there were cliques, there were norms, there were ways that people fit in. And, and me with my combat pants that my dyed black hair and my Merry band of misfits wanted to have a club where we could be who we were and that we could express some opinions that probably other people had, but just didn’t really feel like they had the time and space and, and the platform to be able to express that it was okay to be different.

And I think that Mr. Debo really understood that we would be welcoming to different in terms of his kids, because that was really what the newspaper that I was starting was all about. It was about talking about all those other little things happening at school that, the most popular kids just didn’t see or tramped over or possibly caused.

[00:18:22] Jennifer Chua: You’re selling your donuts at farmer’s markets. Why did you make that choice?

[00:18:27] Melanie Cote: I started out at an initial incubator through the Toronto enterprise fund, and then I got a very small grant and wrote a business plan and a feasibility study and did all of the background work. And then I got all ready to go to pitch for funding on March 6th, 2020, which as you can imagine is a terrible time to have been finally ready to pitch for funding for a food service business that supports marginalized people at high risk with COVID. Bad news.

So rather than. Again, push water up a hill. That’s not going up. We took a break, we worked on governance. We worked on our board of directors. We’ve worked on other things and on a whim, I applied to my local farmer’s market. And part of the reason is their head volunteer is someone who has the same syndrome as my daughter, Corey has Williams syndrome. So I’ve known him a long time. We frequent the market. We’re big supporters. And I thought, why not? I mean, what’s the worst that could happen. Really at that point, the worst that could happen is we get in and we have to be ready to go in nine weeks, but you know, how could they possibly say yes, we, we don’t, we’re not even a thing yet. We just live on paper. And email came saying, congratulations, you have a spot at the farmer’s market. And I thought we have nine weeks to go from a plan on paper, to a working food service program and be prepared to hire trainees to start a training program we haven’t done yet. Surprise. So. Really the idea to apply for the farmer’s market was a way for us to start. We just needed to get started.

[00:20:03] Jennifer Chua: And where are you finding your trainees?

[00:20:05] Melanie Cote: We put on a large call far and wide. We put a job poster and application out through groups that support people with various disabilities. So we sent it to the down syndrome association. We sent it to some groups who support people with autism. I sent it through the Williamson community, people we know at special Olympics. We sent it to our local service providers and some other foundational partners that we’ve met along the way. And try to see who would come forward and apply. We weren’t sure if people were ready and willing to join a new program during the pandemic, or join us on this uncharted journey, we just kind of got out a megaphone and said, we have this new thing who wants to come on the journey with us. We did get 10 exceptional applicants. And we interviewed everyone. It was really hard to decide. It was a really hard to make a choice. We had the budget worked out to hire two people and we hired three because we had three exceptional candidates and it’s only money. And we held their start date until they could join us in person. So we’ve run a completely in person program and we pay them $15 an hour because that’s what people make.

[00:21:15] Jennifer Chua: When you began to look into employment opportunities for young people, when you were doing all of this research and maybe looking for trainees at that point, did you find anything surprising?

[00:21:26] Melanie Cote: I think the thing that’s most surprising, and the thing that continues to surprise me is that 85% of young people with intellectual and developmental disabilities are unemployed. And 15% of typically developing young people are unemployed. The gap for employment for young people with disabilities is cavernous and devastating. Of the young adults who are living with those disabilities now will never earn a paycheck in their life. And for someone like me who had a career who really valued work and being part of a team and being part of a community and being someone who contributes to something and who had a sense of independence and how little money in my pocket, it was really heartbreaking to me to think that that entire experience skips over so many people.

[00:22:18] Jennifer Chua: What are some of the costs we are not considering associated with leaving those with barriers to employment out of our workforce.

[00:22:27] Melanie Cote: Any times when a young individual finishes school special education can go up to age of 21. So they could be anywhere from 18 to 21. When they finished school, they have to go somewhere or do something or be with someone generally speaking.

So the costs are programming cost to the families and also to the social service system are the day programming and ongoing program supports that keep people living more vibrant lives, they’re expensive. There are barriers. They generally are populated with families who have strong advocate parents, which is a real privilege to be able to take the time to become a strong advocate. There are the costs associated with the family member who has to ensure that the person is safely able to go to and from the program, the program may be a half day program. A lot of times, one of the family members leaves work when their child finishes school because they need someone who can either ensure that they can get to their program.

They may only be able to afford to send them two days a week. So they have three days where someone has to be home. They may not be able to send them at all depending on financial situation or space in the program. And so there’s often a loss of one income source in the family. This is extra challenging for families that have only one parent figure in the home because the divorce rate for families raising young people with disabilities is far higher than the average divorce rate.

It’s almost 80% of families divorce. So there are a lot of single parents raising young people with disabilities. And then there are costs in terms of mental health, physical health, which both deteriorate. There’s the ongoing cost of social support for young people with disabilities. Everyone is entitled to social support with a disability with through ODSP, but there are additional costs associated with the ongoing and long-term care.

And then there’s a cost and quality of life for people. If you don’t have a place to go, you don’t feel a sense of belonging. You don’t have purpose. If you’re not continuing to use the skills that you did acquire in school, they start to deteriorate. If you don’t have a place to go or a job or some place that is pushing you to move forward, most of the individuals tend to recede. So reading skills go down, math skills go down, personal independent skills go down. And reading is important. If you can read well enough to read a bus schedule, to understand how to use the bank machine, to read the street signs, to be able to order food, you don’t need to be able to read war and peace, but a lot of these young people’s reading skills will backslide, which means for them to get a job five years from now or 10 years from now or 15 years from now it really lessens that chance for opportunity.

A lot of parents call it the gap or the cliff. Once they leave school, that our society really hasn’t figured out an excellent plan or pathway for adults who don’t fit into the typical norm of the employee or the volunteer or some of the other roles that are out there in the world. Many don’t marry. So it’s not like they have a same age partner in life. So they rely on their parents and siblings to give them that that family structure.

You can imagine everyone who says, Oh, as soon as my child leaves to go to university or college, I’m going to do this. I’m going to fix up my living room or go on that trip I always wanted to take or start to go camping or take up my hobby again, or pick up more hours at work. For many of the families raising young people with intellectual developmental disabilities, that time is never coming. The waitlist for independent living or group homes is about 20 years in Toronto. Once your child reaches the age of 18. They’re often in their forties before they have a space within a group home, which you can imagine if you’ve never left for a college dorm until you were 40, what it would feel like leaving the house for the first time.

Doughnuts are really cute and really fluffy and have lots of sprinkles on them. But what you don’t see behind the donuts is really the opportunity to give someone the potential of having an independent, meaningful life in whatever that looks like for them through work that pays them a decent wage and allows them the opportunity to really integrate into society outside of their family and allows their family to experience what it’s like to have that shift from having children that they care for in their home until they become sort of more independent adults to having an independent adult who is at least somewhat participating as an adult in the world. Like, we were all meant to.

[00:27:22] Jennifer Chua: I know I’ve asked you this, million ways, but I was wondering if I could just ask you one more time Why does this work matter?

[00:27:28] Melanie Cote: This work matters to me because I can’t keep myself from dying and I need to know my daughter’s going to be okay. Everywhere all over the world two o’clock in the morning, there are parents raising kids who don’t necessarily have a place in the world trying to figure out how they can not die. And none of us can. But if we can do enough to know that our kids will be able to take care of themselves well enough to be a statistic. Like 85% of young women with intellectual and developmental disabilities are sexually abused, that people with intellectual and developmental disabilities life expectancy is far shorter. And a lot of the time it’s because their dire health needs go unrecognized by care providers. So they die of things that could easily have been averted, but nobody cared enough to pay enough attention. The level of poverty that is placed around this population based on the constrictions of their social support system means that she will never live a life that she’s accustomed to with us, because she’s not allowed to have wealth that supersedes a certain level in order for her to get social services. And all of that is dependent on government support. If they remove that support, and we’re gone, there’s no one to care for her. Obviously my son will be watching out for her, but there’s no way for her to independently, with support, improve her situation based on the construct of the world, unless she can have a job unless she can work.

If she can’t work, she can’t change how much that check that comes in every month. She can’t change the restrictions on how much she can remove from her RDSP savings program that we’ve set up for her. Those things are all static. What can change is can she earn a paycheck. And if she can earn a paycheck, then she has a whole team of people at work who are looking out for her, might notice her health issues. She has people, peers, who can support her if she’s having challenges with unwanted advances. And if I can’t keep myself from dying. I can certainly create a world that makes room for women like her, for young men like her, for families who can’t afford day programs for families that can’t afford independent living that only have so much savings to go around, who only have one child. There is no sibling. Then who is looking out for someone? If you don’t show up for work for three days, your colleagues figure out where you are. That’s one of the things about having a job. Every cat lady says, at least if I don’t show up for work, someone’s going to come by because they know someone has to feed my cat.

And that is also part of work. It’s a fabric within a community that gives you a place. And so it would not be nice to never die, but for, for none of us that’s happening. But for all of us worrying about these young people, knowing that they could have the ability to work and there’s a world that makes space for them, within that very important societal construct. Maybe we won’t wake up at two o’clock in the morning anymore.

It’s more. It’s the paycheck is nice, but it’s really about having a meaningful place in community where you feel like you belong and you matter. And you’re independent. And people want to get to know you better. And you have inside jokes. And you have somewhere to be at a certain time and you might get invited out to go for a coffee with the team afterwards, or go bowling or have a Christmas party. Like all of those things that are tied to work when you can’t easily make friends and connections outside of work. for the rest of us, I work from home, and I have communities of people that I have found and made. But for a lot of times with people with. Various social anxieties and disabilities and, and things that make them quirky, the construct of work breaks down those barriers so that you can form those relationships despite the quirks. When you are outside of that construct, making those relationships is really hard.

[00:31:47] Jennifer Chua: And so You’re giving your trainees skills, which is really, really key, but are there any other ways that you’re helping the trainees or people in your community find meaningful employment?

[00:31:58] Melanie Cote: Our program works where we do skills training, but then we do on the job training as well. So basically we talk about something in our training day and then we practice it in real time. Actually doing the work. So, our trainees have had growth in every area of our business. They do everything from mixing recipes independently for cookies, mixing the cookies, they are glazing, finishing and packing donuts as assistant bakers on the donut side of our business, they’re running our POS system, punching in the orders having tap, making change, they’re speaking to customers, thanking customers, taking the orders down.

They’re really an integral part of everything we do. And when we interviewed them and asked them what they felt they would be able to do, it was a very small part of what they’re doing now. They have exceeded our expectations, they’ve exceeded their own expectations. They’ve exceeded their parents’ expectations. So I think in addition to giving them that work, we’ve given them confidence. We’ve given them independence. They feel like they’re part of a team. They feel like they’re part of what has allowed Do Good Donuts to come to life, breathing life into something that’s helping them, but will help other people in the future. Having conversations with employment partners. I had an amazing conversation with Loblaws yesterday. One of the person from their diversity equity and inclusion team is going to be taking that further up the food chain to Loblaws to see how we can work together.

And I think the hardest part and the one part that’s really causing them to struggle is that the market ends. We don’t have a program for them anymore. And that was the plan. But our program works when we have a working food service business. So anytime that we’re quiet, we can’t be offering impact. The one downside is until we manage to raise the funds and get all our ducks in a row to have a full-time bricks and mortar cafe and donut shop on you know, main walkable street in the city. There will be times where we can’t help anyone. And so that’s, that’s kind of sad.

[00:34:02] Jennifer Chua: I’m wondering if once you started the program with actual people on site, if you learned anything from them that has shifted this program while it’s gone forward?

[00:34:12] Melanie Cote: Oh my gosh, I learn stuff every day. I think I have learned that the expectations we all have for the young people who might be in this program are too low. I realized I had very high expectations and they weren’t high enough. I realized just how beaten down the parents are and how low their expectations are -not for their kids, but for the potential of any program, to be able to finally make a difference. And I think there’s not much I can do about it, but I think as society, as a whole, we, as the village that raises a family should be more there for the parents raising their kids to this time. I have realized that on one hand society is really not ready to accept that it’s possible for these young people to work. And on the other hand, there’s an army of individuals, leagues of people who are so excited at the notion that this is possible that their passion will outweigh the naysayers in the end. And I thought that maybe I was alone and I learned that I am not alone, that many of us believe it’s possible.

[00:35:39] Jennifer Chua: I love that you get to connect with these bright, vibrant souls that are teaching you so much about running a social enterprise and making a difference. But how has this affected your journey as a parent with a child facing similar barriers?

[00:35:58] Melanie Cote: Well, I think the most important thing is it is a lot of work. And I do recognize that my family wishes, I was home more and that they’re still little and they, aren’t sitting where I am looking at the big picture. So finding ways in the next pilot and in the future to make sure that there’s protected time for that is very important as a mom and as an entrepreneur and all of those things. I think all of us face that conversation. And I think over the course of this summer, it was made even more abundantly clear that I need to build that into the plan. But I also think that learning what I have now spending so much time with these young adults, and I feel really bad for everybody who’s about to meet the new me as an advocate, that the school system needs to be doing more. The community clubs who have said they have don’t have space for her, with her disability need to be doing more. I think that the number of small annoyances that I felt before I now see as the building blocks of giant walls, that will keep her out of things in life. And I am no longer going to let them stand in her way or keep her out of doing the sorts of things that would make her ready for the next whole slew of challenges that she will face when she’s 18 to 21.

[00:37:25] Jennifer Chua: So you’ve become an advocate. And you’re making big strides and big impact in your journey, but have you encountered any notable, like really big challenges?

[00:37:37] Melanie Cote: I think the biggest challenge for me can be summed up in one interaction I had where I got some feedback on a grant that I had proposed. One of the comments was at the end of the day, no matter how much training you do, we don’t believe that these people could work in a fast paced environment like McDonald’s. And this was a very large organization. It was an organization that, that is built around supporting marginalized populations. And if organizations that big, who should be the most open-minded and one of the biggest advocating bodies that we have in this city feels that way. The biggest challenge I have is not about money. It’s not about doing, it’s not about anything. It’s about the perception that people simply don’t believe that there is a place in work for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And it’s not all of them, but it is enough of them that it’s pretty clear now why the disparity in employment exists and how many minds will need to be changed in order to make meaningful impact in this area.

[00:38:51] Jennifer Chua: Was there ever a point where you felt differently and felt like maybe you couldn’t make impact in this way and you’d have to shift to a different idea?

[00:39:03] Melanie Cote: You would think that those things would make me question what I was doing? And I think there’s probably about 30 seconds between hearing those things and when my mouth opens, that I have a neutral space that could go either way. But it just makes me so angry that it actually fuels me to show them they’re wrong more than it makes me think I should stop. And I’m really trying very hard to have an open mind about the path to the end. I recognize that I may not be able to do everything as it sits in my mind exactly the way I think it should be. The more peoples give me all the reasons it shouldn’t work. What I hear is them telling me again that maybe these young people aren’t worth the effort to make the change happen. And if they said it differently, if someone had given me an actual reason, like, this is going to cost you $17 million and you don’t have $17 million, then I would think, oh, geez, I guess I have to think about this differently. But all the reasons they keep giving me have to do with the idea that it’s either not the way we do things, that I expect too much of the young people, or there just really isn’t a place for them at work. And those reasons to me are our only reasons to work harder.

[00:40:41] Jennifer Chua: The people in your community and the people that come visit you at the farmer’s market on Sunday do you think that they understand fully what’s going on or do you think they just love your delicious vegan donuts? What do you think the consumers are thinking about when they interact with you and your business?

[00:40:57] Melanie Cote: think it’s both. I think there are customers who’ve just loved the donuts and don’t really care. And I think there are people who really love the mission who buy stuff anyway, even if they don’t need it. Particularly the parents, we have a lot of families who come and they bring their people who have a developmental disability or a learning disability or mental health things within their life that have caused them to see some barriers and they buy everything. So for them, it’s really about supporting the mission. And for other people, I’ve had customers who we’ve seen every single week and just recently are like, “oh my gosh, I didn’t realize you guys were doing this”. Like they didn’t even notice. And I think for anyone who’s thinking about creating a social enterprise, it’s really important to know that you have to have an excellent product because people will support your mission once. But if your product isn’t great, unless they’re hardcore committed to what you’re doing, they’re not going to come back. And there are only so many people who care about your mission. Everybody cares about their own thing. Like this is, I’m really passionate about this. And yeah, I care about the environment, but I’m not going out of my way to support an environmental cause because I’m busy already supporting the thing that’s at the top of my list. So if you have an amazing product, the person who super cares about the environment is still going to buy your product. Not because they care or don’t care about the mission, but because you’re giving them something that they really want. And the next door doughnut shop is an environment donut shop, but their donut isn’t as good… so they may go to that one half the time, but you’re still going to be on the list. And I think it’s important.

At the end of the day, people don’t buy crappy products, even if they’re doing amazing things, unless they do it once in 10 purchases or once in 20 purchases. If you have an amazing product, people will buy your amazing product eight out of 10 times. And if they love your mission, they’ll buy it 10 out of 10 times. And I think that that really was ingrained into me very early in this journey. And there were people who said that a donut shop that supports people with disabilities simply couldn’t make as much money as one that only had typical staff. And I think that’s more a testament to the idea that other social enterprises that are really focused on their mission and less focused on the product haven’t delivered to their customers well enough to be able to consistently keep a customer base that’s coming, regardless of the mission.

[00:43:27] Jennifer Chua: When we talk about purpose, sometimes we think that purpose has to be this huge thing that is creating so much impact. But for some people, something as small as having meaningful employment can be all of the purpose that changes everything for them in their outlook. And it’s amazing.

[00:43:48] Melanie Cote: It’s amazing. The difference in mental health, physical health, life expectancy, happiness, the status of mental health, the need for medication, the physical fitness, eating, nutrition, the ability to manage money. Like all of those things feel very singular, but they are all the one non-economic benefit of employment. And none of us think of it that way. We all think, oh, I hate my job, but I have to go. And we forget about all the things we get from it. And part of I have to go is I think that our written way of saying. There’s a whole bunch of this. It’s important to me, even though I have a crap boss, or even though it’s a really far commute, or even though I’m underpaid or undervalued, or I really hate the way that the person next to me eats their lunch at their desk. All of those things are very small annoyances within a very large construct that gives us a lot of meaning, like a lot of what we get from work.

[00:44:49] Jennifer Chua: Knowing what you know now about how society treats people with various disabilities and how businesses potentially treat people with barriers to employment. But then also with this delightful experience really you’ve had with the community and with your trainees, are you hopeful for the future?

[00:45:12] Melanie Cote: Absolutely. Particularly at this time when there’s so much discussion around diversity and there’s so much discussion around inclusion and there’s so much discussion around all the things none of us knew that we didn’t know about people who weren’t necessarily having the same life experience as us.

The disability community has been tangentially included in the big discussions that have been happening over the last year and a half in the states and obviously in Canada. And I think that as the need for this inclusion is brought to the forefront. People say, “oh, it’s just like that other thing that I didn’t know that I should be examining within myself.”

And I think the time is ripe for the kind of change where people make space for people who maybe aren’t the best candidate and noting that they aren’t the best candidate, because they didn’t have the same opportunity to become the best candidate, or they’re not the best candidate because in this case, maybe they don’t have the innate ability to just be able to do it now without work. But that doesn’t mean that their contribution isn’t worth the effort. I think the time is now I think that Do Good Donuts has come about at an exceptional time. And I have so many conversations with so many amazing people who say, I never thought of it that way. And I think the work you’re doing is enough for us to be able to find a way to make this work.

That without the go-between without the job before the job, without being able to see the experience that people have had and have the job recommendation and have people be sort of, pre-trained, it’s really hard because businesses need to make money. I get it. And nobody has six months to wait for somebody to become effective. But if we can spend the six months making them effective, then the employer just has to teach them the nuance of how the job is different at the new place. And the ability for the efficacy is so much greater. And the payoff to the employer comes so much sooner. They get to see all the bright spots sooner and spend much less time in the part that’s challenging and the part that they don’t have that much experience in. Let us do that part, let us find the experience to make that happen and let you reap the benefits of… communities rally around businesses that support the community. All of the research shows that if there are two businesses and one of them has a person with an intellectual developmental disability that the public sees, and one of them does not, the public will go more to the one that supports the community than the one that does it. They make more money.

I think it’s important to remind everyone as we have been reminded so many times this year, that we all have a lot of innate biases and we. all have a lot of preconceived notions around things or people or situations or how things come to pass. And I think a lot of people are surprised to find someone with a disability, asking them for their order at our tiny donut shop.

And I really urge people to take another look at themselves and wonder if there are ways or places in what they’re doing in the community at their workplace or within some of their social groups to ask why there isn’t anyone like this on their staff and how can they make a change? Because I really think that for me, and I recognize that I’m biased and also super into this, but really, my employees are my favorite people because they spend so much time building me up and, I made a whole business to try to build them up and I show up and it’s like, this is our favorite place. You’re the best boss. Like they really are such a delight to have on staff.

And yeah, it’s a lot of work and yeah, they’re quirky, and I think just cause the quirks are different than the quirks you’re dealing with now, it doesn’t mean that it’s in any way going to should stand in the way of, maybe making a little extra space. Just, just see if there’s a seat at the table.