Yash Presswalla from Impact Skateboard Club left a career in music behind to start a nonprofit focused on supporting youth. In this episode we learn why he’s chosen to use skateboarding as a vehicle for social change. We discover how Impact’s programming, empowers children and youth to develop healthy self-esteem, resilience and other necessary life skills on and off the ramps. We hear how Impact teaches so much more than skateboarding. How their focus on accessibility, outreach and activism allows kids of all abilities and backgrounds to become skateboarders and champions for equality.

If you want to learn more about Yash, Impact Skateboard Club’s, programming, or to send a kid to skate camp visit www.impactskateclub.com. Have an empty warehouse in central Toronto? Or a lead on a suitable space for indoor programming? Impact would love to hear from you. You can follow along with Yash on his mission to help kids learn more about emotional wellbeing and social skills through skateboarding and social action. On Instagram @impactskateclub.

Links from this episode

• Impact Skateboard Club

Episode Transcript

[00:02:20] Jennifer Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to the Cost Of Goods Sold. I’m your host, Jennifer Myers Chua and this is episode number 24.

In today’s episode, we chat with Yash Presswalla from Impact Skateboard Club. We learn why Yash decided to leave a career in music behind to start a nonprofit focused on supporting youth. And why he’s chosen to use skateboarding as a vehicle for social change. We discover how Impact’s programming, empowers children and youth to develop healthy self-esteem, resilience and other necessary life skills on and off the ramps. We hear how Impact teaches so much more than skateboarding. How their focus on accessibility, outreach and activism allows kids of all abilities and backgrounds to become skateboarders and champions for equality.

Before building impact skateboard club Yash Presswalla was a working musician. Spending his twenties playing jazz and teaching skateboarding on the side. Teaching and performing were things that he enjoyed. And although he didn’t become the rock star, he once dreamed of becoming Yash had settled into a life of weekend music gigs and summer camps. But when Yash turned 30, he began to reevaluate. where would he be at 40? In a decade. Would he be playing covers at bars? Would alcohol have a hold on him? Would he be playing? Can’t help falling in love by Elvis Presley. Every day, every wedding, every weekend. Where was he going with this life?

[00:04:01] Yash Presswalla: I didn’t realize it at the time, but I was very insecure and and still kind of living with the attitudes of a teenager. I think in part, because of like the people I had around me, who I was influenced by and just the choices I made for myself, like where I chose to spend my time and what I did. That involved drinking and drug usage. But it wasn’t all bad. Like it wasn’t a disaster. On the surface at all.

[00:04:27] Jennifer Chua: This is not what he had wanted for his career and it wasn’t his life’s ambition. And he did know that he was a good teacher and that he was great with kids. And while teaching skateboarding was something that he enjoyed and was a good source of supplemental income. Yash had had a falling out with his business partner.

[00:04:45] Yash Presswalla: And, uh, That partnership didn’t really end up working out too well. It was always kind of fraught, but at this time when everything sort of changed and I decided that I didn’t want to be playing cover gigs for the rest of my life. And I didn’t want to keep drinking and because alcohol was abundantly accessible, just doing what I did. And I didn’t want to keep taking shit from people. I realized that I wasn’t even, I started becoming introduced to the concept of what boundaries even mean. And I realized that I was very much a people pleaser. So, When all of these things changed, I also decided to leave that business partnership where I was doing skateboard camps and programming and and that sort of all blew up in kind of a bad way, but I decided that I’m good at this.

[00:05:32] Jennifer Chua: So he established Impact as a nonprofit and we’ll chat about that decision in a bit. But the intent was that the kids who didn’t have access to programming, like this would have a chance at scholarships. And Yash was already well-known in the skateboard community. He had established himself with the parents looking for this kind of instruction. And after building a board of directors Impact was up and rolling.

But even after a couple of years of programming success impacts camps and workshops sell out in a flash. Yash is always trying to expand and push Impact Skateboard Club forward. Using a council of young people and volunteers Impact has been established as a positive and welcoming space for everyone. From summer campers to at-risk youth and those facing barriers to involvement.

[00:06:23] Yash Presswalla: The underlying goals were very different because it’s not just about like an athletic pursuit or physical exercise or, a recreational activity, but more about what the deeper implications of that are. And I also wanted to make sure that skateboarding was accessible to anyone who wanted to do it. It’s already a pretty accessible activity, at least in this part of the world, because we have access to skateboards and I’m like, there are shops around and you can get a skateboard handed down to you. and a helmet, if you’re a kid, and once you have that then you’re pretty much ready to go. You don’t need a team or a field or anything, except for some flat ground and your skateboard. But even still, that’s not easy for everyone to get. So I wanted to make sure that people could get skateboards, like especially young people if they wanted them.

[00:07:08] Jennifer Chua: And why is this so important to you? Like all the work that you do around equity, inclusion, advocacy, was there an event that shaped how you see the world? This.

[00:07:17] Yash Presswalla: My mom has always worked with kids with special needs. So, like inclusion and accessibility has always been a conversation growing up and, and throughout my life but I think the real motivation for me to do things this way was I just kind of looked back at where I got tripped up as a young person and what might have helped me. What I needed that I didn’t have that ended up causing a lot of distress and and like unnecessary complications. Like the lack of self-esteem without even really being conscious of it, the lack of knowing what my identity was or where it lay, the people pleasing thing, like all of that stuff was just a combination of the way I grew up and the people I was around, and the choices I made.

And there’s so many intersections there where I feel like positive male influences in my life, or, X, Y, and Z, that, that I might’ve been able to make better choices. So that’s what I’m trying to provide. Hopefully be a good role model. And I do that by just trying to continually work on myself and be the best version of myself in my work and outside of it.

And then just kind of be there for people. Young people in an inappropriate way where I had older people in my life when I was growing up, but they weren’t really modeling things that ended up serving me. So I want to try to model things that are going to serve the people that I’m working.

[00:08:46] Jennifer Chua: And what about making a difference? Can you remember a moment that led you on this path to wanting to take your life, to make difference for kids or people in our community?

[00:08:57] Yash Presswalla: um, I don’t think it was a moment. It just kind of seems like the right thing to do. This is maybe a bit after the fact, but being in a recovery program helped me understand what it means to not just like be sober, but to have a productive life. And most importantly, like the end of 12 step program, or like the last step is using what you’ve learned to help others.

And by giving it away is how you end up keeping it for yourself. So I was kind of already on this path before I got there but that just really reinforced like, oh yeah. That’s why I do it. It’s not, it’s not because I necessarily want to feel good about myself, but it feels like I do feel good being able to give back what I’ve gotten. And what I’ve gotten is like people who understand people who listen, people who have helped me without asking for anything in return.

I get a feeling of fulfillment from being able to do that myself. And it also helps me just grow as a person. So it’s not like I made some kind of selfless decision to like, I’m just going to be good and help people. It’s really like a full circle thing because I see it as when we help other people, it’s like, we’re helping ourselves too, because I see us as one big us. So it’s not like, oh, these poor unfortunate people that I’m helping, or these poor kids that would be so lost without me. It’s like, it’s a symbiotic thing where we’re all kind of in it together. And when one of us succeeds, we all succeed. That’s how I see it.

[00:10:27] Jennifer Chua: So why did you choose to go on the route of creating a nonprofit? Like you could have built a social enterprise business with a giveback program. I’m just wondering, why did you choose the path of nonprofit for this venture?

[00:10:39] Yash Presswalla: I had no idea what I was doing. I knew as far as business savvy went, I just knew to treat people. To like, do what you say you’re going to do, and if you mess up, fix it. Even when I was a business previously, I was never led by how am I going to make the most money?

The money was always just like incidental and like keeps you going, but not the most important thing. So being able to provide accessibility was kind of one of the core components when this was just an idea before it even became a real thing. And in my mind, and with the little knowledge that I had at the time, I wanted to be able to access outside funding so that for people who were not able to afford programs, people like staff still need to get paid. We still have, equipment to buy and there’s still money that needs to come in. But I wanted to be able to find ways to. Not have that financial burden be completely on the people who are participating. Particularly for those who can’t afford it. So the gears were going and I thought, well, nonprofits can get outside funding.

And I’d formed a small board of directors and one of the directors runs a non-profit daycare center. So she was like instrumental, especially in the beginning, but even now in just helping me navigate. How to incorporate how to you know, access those funds. And we never really did end up finding that much outside funding. Like we’re all pretty much self self-funded at this point, aside from grants here and there. But as we continue to grow and, you know, as we re-establish an indoor space and all these things that I want to do, we’re going to need funding from outside. And I know that it’s out there and it’s just, I’m learning as I go. But the whole idea of the nonprofit was just to be able to not have the financial burden lay on the people who are participating. So the families and the kids.

[00:12:31] Jennifer Chua: and what are your programs look like? Like what are you doing to support the community? How are you actually connecting with these kids. What are you actually doing with them?

[00:12:41] Yash Presswalla: Lots of things. So the in-person programming primarily takes the form of like lesson programs and the lessons, or like summer camp or weekend, hour long sessions where we’re learning how to skateboard, but. Deeper core component of like, what does this activity actually do for us? So how does skateboarding build confidence?

What happens when we all kind of like work towards something and develop these relationships with each other and become part of a community? Like what then, how do we leverage that to, maybe help others or even help ourselves or to relate better to each other, to develop social skills, all that stuff has kind of built in.

And I knew that going in to establishing as a nonprofit and kind of like having these ideas of deeper goals for the whole thing, but as we’ve gone along and the more I dig, the more I see the richness of this particular thing that I know well, that can help.

There are things like workshops that we’ve done. So like somewhat skateboarding adjacent, but maybe not necessarily. For example, we did this series a couple of summers ago where it was an art based series. Combined with skateboarding, somewhat haphazardly in cases.

But I I just reached out to people that I knew who had other skills. So for example, the first one was like a music workshop where I had a drummer friend of mine bring in a bunch of progressive instruments and taught the kids about just like basic rhythm and playing together and like listening and time, just in a fun, really introductory.

These kids who already skateboarded or who were interested in skateboarding, had them come out to this free workshop where they got to learn this new skill. And then they all got to skate together. So not directly related, but we could still do it all in same day. Another one in that same series was a photography thing.

 Another one that we did, that’s another skateboard adjacent thing is like a graffiti workshop. So a friend of mine who is a really great artist came in and everyone had sketchbooks and he talked a little bit about lettering and. Obviously, like I really wanted to stress that graffiti is different from vandalism. And so you don’t write on things that are not yours. But there’s plenty of examples at the skate park of really great art and also not really great scribblings. And so they got to see what that means from somebody who does like murals and really puts time and effort into what they do. Compared to scratching a swear word on the skate park concrete. And so they got to practice their lettering in the book. And then we had them use spray paint on this giant canvas. And that was really fun for them too. We did a yoga workshop, that same series, so that kind of stuff has always been really interesting to me because then we’re helping them branch out and try new things that they might not necessarily try otherwise.

That following summer, I think this was the summer right before COVID. We did the same kind of thing, but had a couple of kids lead the workshops. So one of them was really into like tie dying. So I got her to teach all her peers how to tie and we just facilitated the, like the supplies and the t-shirts and stuff like that. And she was the one teaching everyone. Another little girl does like this awesome splatter, like Jackson Polack grip, tape artwork. So she’s got this really cool method. And I loved it so much that I invited her to do it, and I think she was like eight at the time and just a pretty beginner skateboarder too, but was so cool the way she was like teaching these teenagers, her like little technique for doing it.

And so we were able to provide the grip tape and like the paint and everything. And, and I, I really loved doing those because that put these kids. And in this case it was two girls. And like these leadership positions where I know they’re both super nervous and like wanting to do it, but also didn’t want to do it and ended up doing it. And it was good for everybody. Like everyone really loved it. And they had such a positive experience too, just from being able to facilitate and prove to themselves, they could do something like that. So I really love that.

Another really important thing that I do want to mention is the youth council. So that’s for 12 and over. They kind of started as monthly meetings. And my original thought is if we’re going to be serving children and youth, I want young people in this kind of advisory role so that it’s not just. me making the decisions about what we do and how we do it, but I want their feedback of like, what do you guys want? What do you need? Or what do you think young people need? And so it started like that, and that is part of the role of the council. It’s kind of just became like a safe place for them to talk about things and discuss whatever’s affecting their lives. So there’s been all kinds of. Awesome conversations.

And some people are really active participants and talk a lot and some just come and sit there and listen the whole time. But you know, talking about what’s going on at school, talking about like addiction talking about all kinds of discrimination. Stuff that’s maybe that I might not bring up to like a six or seven year old, but that is very relevant and real for teenagers. And they don’t have other places to talk about this kind of. So just even giving them a chance to share, it’s not like a lecture thing. We can introduce a topic and you can speak on it and I can share my experiences with them and hear what they have to say about it. And that’s been really awesome too.

So some of the kids in that council don’t even skateboard. Like they they’re just not into skateboarding, but they still come to that because they know it’s a safe place for them to be, and they can relate to other people and build relationships and. My role, there is just kind of like the caring adult. That’s not overbearing, but also going to keep things from going off the rails.

[00:18:21] Jennifer Chua: Now when I was a teenager in the 1990s, there was a lot of us skateboarding, but there was not so many. Kids around, like, I never saw children’s skateboarders until I grew up and have a child skateboarder of my own. What is the skateboard scene look like in Toronto these days?

[00:18:40] Yash Presswalla: It’s so different. So it’s the same when I started there weren’t any skate parks really in Toronto. We were just like skateboarding on the street and generally like 6, 7, 8 year olds aren’t left to just run the streets. I think in general. I was probably like 12, 13 when I started being able to go out by myself and hang out with my friends and just come home before dark or whatever.

And it was very much this, I guess gatekeeping is the word that comes to mind. It’s almost like, I felt like you have to be good before you can even like show yourself at a skate spot or, or like be around those better skateboarders. Not that I ever really felt intimidated because I started skateboarding with a group of friends and there was like a crew of us.

So I could imagine it would be different if I was just really into it and started solo, which a lot of kids do. But I never felt that intimidation so much, but I definitely felt Like a bit of anxiety in that these older guys were okay. Skating with us, but I was still like, I was trying to seem cool around them or maybe I would allow things that I wasn’t okay with just because I didn’t want to like rock the boat or because I want it to be accepted. I just stayed quiet when I maybe should have said something or I may be stuck around when I should have left. Because I didn’t, I had no idea how to like, trust my. Or that my instincts maybe were correct. And that the thing all around me was not the right thing to do. But I ended up hanging out with these older guys and they, they were friendly in a way, but it was that kind of way where they’re like, they’ll let you hang out with them, but they’ll still bully you kind of thing.

And, but in my mind, at the time that was a win because I had these cool, their friends who are like awesome at skateboarding. Today that’s a lot different because there are first of all skate parks. So that’s cool. And a lot of parents are actually really involved with their kids. Whereas my parents were by no means like neglectful, but they would not have had, even if there were skate parks, I don’t think they would have had time to like spend eight hours there with me while I just like tried tricks all day. And some parents I see at parks do have that ability. I know not most of them, but they’re still this, this it’s pretty common for like parents to bring their kids to the park. Sit on the grass or pull up a chair and just kind of like read or do work or whatever it happens to be. But I was just not that kid.

I would not have been okay with that because I would have wanted my parents far away from what I was doing. And I’m not, I think there’s plenty of reasons why, and I won’t, I won’t go into all of them, but it’s just cool to see that skateboarding is not kind of seen as that. Degenerate thing as much anymore.

It’s, it’s a slow climb, but it’s coming around to that. You know, it’s like a lot more legitimate in the eyes of non skateboarders, I think. And part of that has to do with like the kids involved in the families involved. And the fact that skateboarding in and of itself is totally wholesome and like amazing and such a, a great learning experience in all kinds of ways.

But it wasn’t quite that. Even with the like trying and failing and getting better at something and the way that it builds your confidence, that didn’t really apply to me because nobody pointed out to me that, Hey, you really worked hard at this and you succeeded. Maybe you can do that for other things like that. There was no connection there. So I missed the boat on that lesson kind of. And so I think just talking about it or introducing kids to these concepts. Okay. Can be really helpful, but if you don’t talk about it, then it’s a missed opportunity.

[00:22:07] Jennifer Chua: Social action and activism is a big part of what you do as well. Can you speak a bit more to why that’s so important and how skateboarding can be a vehicle for social change?

[00:22:18] Yash Presswalla: So the way I see it is that skateboarding is a community. And it’s a really strong community in a lot of ways, because we have this shared experience of like struggle and pain, like literally when it comes down to it, there’s a lot of things where people can develop comradery and rapport, like on the music side of things, I can relate to other musicians because we’ve kind of spent the time working toward these similar goals.

And so if I see somebody that kinda knows what they’re talking about, musically, I know that they’ve had that shared expense. where skateboarding’s a little bit different because in order to get that shared experience, you really have to hang on through some tough times and like tough times being physical pain, a lot of time, you know, like falling and, and just even the frustration of so much failure just to get a little bit of success. In my experience that really brings skateboarders together. To the extent that like I can go to a country. They don’t speak English. And if I have my skateboard and see other skateboarders, like I’m automatically in that crew, I can go up to them and feel comfortable talking to them, or like using my hands to communicate and more than just like skateboard with them. It’s given me like places to stay in different countries or advice on where to go, where to eat, where to, you know, like where the different spots are. So that’s cool. And so with that shared experience and that like sense of community, I think by extension, we have a really unique opportunity to leverage that community and mobilize because together we can do more than we can on our own.

And so what I try to do with the young people, or at least what I try to introduce them to and provide resources and opportunities is for them to use the community that we’ve already got to stop. To go out and help each other and help others outside of the community. So that comes in the form of like, advocacy for homelessness and just reinforcing that you don’t have to do something big and grand for it to matter that even small things matter.

So we’ve done things even with the little guys working with other organizations like Elizabeth Fry comes to mind, which is a nonprofit. Supports women who are coming out of criminal justice system. And a lot of the time those women are incarcerated because of crimes related to abuse by men or their partners. And so this organization kind of helps people who are coming out of prison or jail and and a lot of the time they’ve lost access to their kids or, there’s all kinds of restrictions. So even things like writing mother’s day cards for those ladies from the kids can be such a, an easy, small thing for us to do, but that can be so meaningful for somebody who’s struggling.

And so that’s something that as individuals, we could do that, but as a community of skateboarders, I mean, that’s something we did with the littler kids, but even they can understand that people who are having a hard time, even just like a little card from you can be really meaningful and that’s empowering for the kids too.

In terms of the stuff that we’ve done around homelessness that’s really kind of taken off during COVID too, because of the encampments that were set up in different parks. So it started with collecting. Supplies for care kits. So just like basic stuff that people could use, like clean socks or hygiene supplies or whatever. We were able to put that together through different donations that the youth council put together. And I was able to leverage some of our contacts. And so they assembled these kits, which was the original idea, but I even had a couple of them go out with me to the encampments and get to hand them out and meet people because it’s not just about giving things.

It’s about realizing that like, people who are living in an encampment are not different from us. They’re not a different kind of human being. They still have the same, like wants and needs and they, have a lot of the same struggles. So it’s, I think we can understand that intellectually, but actually being able to go out and talk to folks and just have a normal conversation. That’s not about like, oh, so you’re living in a tent. How’s that going? It’s like, we can just talk about the things that you talked to anyone about. That’s really been awesome for me. And I know that it’s been impactful for the kids who were able to do that with me too. The skateboard community is so tight knit in a lot of ways, and there’s just such great opportunities there to leverage that at solidarity and pour it out.

[00:26:44] Jennifer Chua: And I follow you on social media and have seen all of the things that you’ve done with rallies and events to support everyone from refugees to the queer community, to those struggling with mental health. Why is this important to you? Why do you choose to use impact to help these communities as well?

[00:27:04] Yash Presswalla: um, I guess it’s just an extension of, of what I care about and it starts there. When I start talking about it, I can see that a lot of the kids in our orbit also care about these things. So in a way, I don’t think this is like the intention behind it, but just the result is I’m influencing other people to either think about these issues or to, go out and change the way that they do things too.

But the, I guess the reason is just again, cause it’s the right thing. And everything is connected in some way. So like the mental health is connected to the inclusion is connected to discrimination and it’s connected to like helping people who are struggling because we are all those people, like we all struggle in different ways. So developing empathy I think goes a long way, and it’s not just about this issue with that, but it’s all kind of one thing. Which is we are all people and it’s like try to treat each other, right. Even people that we might not necessarily get along with, or even that we like play an old don’t like we can still see them as like human and worthy of respect and care and dignity.

[00:28:14] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to look into maybe community services or supporting children, did you have any realizations surrounding how we are supporting kids in our society? There may be disadvantaged in some way. Like what are the costs to how we are treating kids that need our help in, in our society currently?

[00:28:37] Yash Presswalla: That’s a really good question. And it can be actually for me a little bit overwhelming and. I know sad at times, because there’s only so much that we can do as like, youth leaders or whatever. I’m not every kid’s parent and they need their parents to fulfill certain rules that, that are just not appropriate or possible for me to fulfill.

Even though sometimes I really want to, if I think that they’re not getting what they need, but that can be hard. It’s just kind of accepted. Not everyone is getting what they need so I can do my best, but it’s not ever going to be like world saving stuff and that’s okay. But it is heartbreaking at times to deal with I think what I can bring to the table or not even me, but what skateboarding can really bring to the table is that it’s, it can be such a process of self discovery.

And I think that’s something every. It needs to deal with, or it needs to experience in their home, you know, and unfolding. I really come back to the fact that it must be so hard to be a kid growing up with everything we have going on right now. I guess every generation can say that, but just like internet and social media and like lack of person to person interactions.

Or just the fact that they’re so different from pre-internet times. I see that play out and the effects of that, the negative effects of that in a lot of ways some of the positives are that there’s a lot more acceptance and knowledge of like mental health issues and and what discrimination really is.

And, and we’ve kind of been able to tighten up on a lot of things that were wrong, but totally socially acceptable when I was. But the flip side is that kids are super anxious, depressed, and, and really struggled to form relationships that are meaningful and, and real. There’s like a lot of surface level posturing and performative kind of everything going on.

And I think a lot of that just comes from the fact that. We don’t really have place to be bored anymore, you know? And I think from boredom kind of comes that, like, you kind of sit with it and it’s uncomfortable and it’s like itch. And from that, you can figure out like, well, I’d really like to do this, or I’d like to pick up an instrument draw or, but it’s so easy to avoid all that now, but I just like scrolling or, or just mindlessly spending time on your phone or on the.

So, so much so that we not only stifle that kind of natural growth that I think happens for most people, but we actually like regressed in a lot of ways. And I noticed that for myself too, even though I didn’t like grow up with that for my early childhood, but I really I’m constantly checking myself.

Like I need time to just rest and unplug and be still because rest isn’t like watching a show or. I like scrolling Instagram. It’s like, it’s actually spending time with myself and it’s, I think so vital and necessary. And I, I think that’s something that we need to emphasize more, especially for young people, but for everyone.

[00:31:55] Jennifer Chua: And how else have you seen this work impact the kids and the teens that. you’re spending time with? Have you seen any really profound changes in them as a whole, like as a little collective.

[00:32:05] Yash Presswalla: I guess I frame it more as individuals, but there are a lot of them, so they form a collective and I’ve seen it play out in just having these relationships that, you know, over the months and years just the conversations start to change the questions they asked, start to change. And again, as individuals, I I’m really encouraged by times when, when the conversation kind of references or mirror something that we’ve talked about once before.

And I can tell that there’s been like a thought process and time spent with the idea and it comes back around full circle. It’s just cool to see. It’s cool to see how much young people are capable of. Because I know that again, intellectually, but I think we discount them a lot, especially like children.

There’s this kind of adult switch that goes off for a lot of people. I think it’s like, oh, they don’t know what’s going on or they don’t really get it. But they get a lot more than we often give them credit for. And I think just. Acknowledging that to them and giving them choices and giving them as much autonomy is like, as, you know, it’s as appropriate and, and helpful to them.

Uh I’ve I’ve been surprised and I even expect it. And I’m still surprised. So just seeing, yeah, like with our kind of core group that I’ve known for a few years now, seeing that whole group kind of like elevate their mental state and their attitudes toward things. Ability to understand the world around them is, is really awesome and totally inspiring because I’m still trying to do the same thing.

[00:33:50] Jennifer Chua: And how about us like you and me as a small business owner and the owner of a nonprofit or the listeners who maybe are in the same category, how can we best support the adults of the future?

[00:34:01] Yash Presswalla: That’s a good question. And I think it comes back to at least what I’ve settled on at this time. My answer might change a year from now, but I don’t think it will. It’s just that the best thing that I can do to help anybody is to work on myself. In recovery, they there’s like a lot of phrases or sayings that go around and one of them is that you can’t give what you don’t have.

So. If I can be my best self, then, then I can pass that along because young people in particular have a really good bullshit meter and they can tell on an instinctive level when somebody’s faking it. And it’s sad and you know, it’s kind of disappointing a lot of the times, but a lot of people and especially in nonprofit world or a say they’re doing something and don’t actually do it.

And it’s kind of just about the image of doing something. And so I think just being authentic is the best thing that we can do and encouraging young people to be authentic and true to themselves. But you can’t do that if you’re not true to yourself. And I think that goes same for raising kids and same for influencing peers, our own age or older, or.

Just being the kind of person that that you would like to meet. That’s my take on it.

[00:35:18] Jennifer Chua: So in your journey with impact skateboard club, have you encountered any really big challenges like COVID or otherwise? Has there been anything that’s just been really, really challenging and difficult to get through?

[00:35:32] Yash Presswalla: Yes. I think that perhaps you and a lot of people who might be listening to this could even relate, but letting go has been the. Letting go of control and and I’m still very much in the process of that letting go. But in the sense of, I don’t want to be integral to run the show. I want this to be able to flourish with or without me.

And so I’m kind of trying to build the foundation as solid as I can, but at some point it would be great for somebody else to take my. And up until that point, it would be great for other people who are like-minded to facilitate what I do. And so it’s not just like all me making the decisions and doing all the work all the time.

I think that’s important for several reasons. First of all, I tried to not get consumed by any one particular thing. There’s definitely seasons and, and the first few years of impact I was consumed and I think that was, yeah. Good thing and the right thing, but those are seasons and I don’t think it needs to stay like that.

So, finding the right people has been a challenge because I am not in a pretentious way, but I really set the bar very high and it’s super high because I believe that kids need to have good people around them, safe people not perfect people, but people that are going to. Not do any harm, you know, even in terms of their own personal attitudes that might come through.

I think it’s important that people kind of have that right heart going into this type of work. And unfortunately, a lot of people that work with kids shouldn’t be in my opinion, and that goes for like teachers and like, you know, recreation facility, facilitators and coaches and all that stuff.

I think there’s like a lot of inner work that needs to be done to be effective. And to really like help young people thrive. So again, not being pretentious, I haven’t done all of that work that I think should be done, but but I’ve definitely addressed a lot of things and like the me of 10 years ago, I probably wouldn’t hire today to work with kids.

You know, not because I was like unsafe. But it’s because there’s a lot of stuff that I needed to deal with before I could give it to somebody else. So that’s been a pretty big challenge. The first of all the letting go and the second part of that is like just finding the right people at the moment.

I’m really, really happy with the team that we have. It’s pretty small, but but I trust them all and and they do awesome work and I’m just like really great. For all our crew. But I’d like more of them and I’d like, I’d like people to take on more than just an instruction role or more than just a programming role, but more like a, an administrative and like a visionary role as well.

Cause I, I think I have good ideas, but I also know other people have good ideas that I have not thought of yet. And so it’s important to, to bring people in, especially like young adults who are closer to the age group of the people that will be.

[00:38:36] Jennifer Chua: Yeah. And I’d like to learn more about your clubhouse. So unfortunately you had to shut down your physical space. I’d like to learn why you had to shut it down, first of all, but why is having that physical space so important to impact in your overall goals?

[00:38:51] Yash Presswalla: First and foremost, it’s just a skateboarding space for the winter. Yeah. Necessary like this is, it’s not just like a fringe, you know, recreation, hobby, or a sport it’s it’s mainstream now. And so many people participate in skateboarding and get so much out of it that I think it’s pretty ridiculous that we don’t have more infrastructure for it.

And I think it’s just that. We’re kind of running a few years behind. So skateboarding has grown a lot in popularity and it does come in waves, but we’re at like, you know, a peak of one of those waves. And I think it’s still going up and it takes a little while for like policy to fall into place behind that.

So I think we will see more infrastructure. It’s encouraging how many outdoor parks there are and how much and, and the plans to create more. But the indoor thing is really an issue here where we live. Half the year, outdoor skate parks are not viable. They’re not, you can’t use them when there’s snow on the ground or when it’s wet or even when it’s super cold.

So, having that indoor space is just for the skateboard community at large, like forget about impact or kids. We need them. There’s not enough, not nearly enough. There’s one spot in Mississauga and there’s another spot in Scarborough. That’s pretty. Not enough for the community of skateboarders that there are in the city and there’s nothing in the middle.

So I’m speaking for myself and for this organization. And what, what the goals of, of impact are it’s important to have the space, not only to just give people a place to skate, but to foster an inclusive community and really have people whose values are aligned in the same way. Have a place to get together and meet and plan and do and flourish.

So I see a facility like you called it a clubhouse. And I think of it as like a youth space, more than just an indoor skate park, because when we briefly had our indoor space, I really wanted it to be like a safe place for people to come and sure. Escape, but also just to like, be with the friends and hang out and do the things that young people like.

But in this, you know, with this kind of like air of supervision where it’s not, they were just going to like party, like I did when I was a kid. But also not where the, where you would be like shunned for doing that either. It’s like just an environment where you can come and be exactly who you are and you don’t have to put on the airs.

When I was younger and started skateboarding, there was actually one skate park, right. Downtown. And and it was awesome and like grimy and gritty and like all the things you would think of for like a nineties, early two thousands skate park. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t where I would bring an eight year old.

And and I think the places like that do have their place too. And it’s cool. Like maybe teenagers and young adults don’t want to hang out where eight year olds are going to be hanging out. And that’s fine like that. But what I’m trying to do is create a space where everyone feels comfortable and, you know, maybe older people would want to go somewhere else after, or, or do something else, or like be in a different kind of environment as well.

But I want to try to make something that’s like equally accessible and comfortable for whoever comes through. And and beyond that, I want to be able to provide more than just skateboard programming, but my background’s in art music. So like, some kind of facility for that. I think fitness and nutrition are so important.

I think like so many young people, myself included are into like music and production and like digital arts. And so having facilities and spaces for all these things is kind of like the dream. And on top of that, even having a place where people can get their first employment, like a small cap, Coffee shop allowing area, a place where kids can like, you know, just instead of hanging out at a library or a coffee shop, they can come do their homework or, you know, like play games or chat with each other or apply for university or apply for a job and have adults around them that are safe that can help them with those things too.

So that’s kinda like the vision I have right now and it’s all these really awesome. Pie in the sky ideas, but I know that those can come together too can happen. I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it happen. And I’ve like seen the end result of it too. So, I’m really encouraged and, you know, yeah. Money is a huge issue, especially because the place has to be so big and we want to have it like within the city of Rome.

And that’s a challenge too, but I don’t really focus too much on why I can’t do it. And more, just try to look for ways that we can. And just take it one step at a time, because in my experience, things will fall into place. If you just prepare and have faith and believe that it can work and work for it.

[00:43:48] Jennifer Chua: And the children in our community, the adults of the future, the kids that you’re serving, obviously I usually ask, how do you think that your work is supporting these kids, but like it’s obvious that your work is supporting these kids. So based on your interactions with these kids and all of the works that you’re doing, that you’ve been doing, are you hopeful for the future?

[00:44:10] Yash Presswalla: I am super hopeful and encouraged. The conversations that I hear happening, or like the topics that come up are so far beyond the kinds of things I would have talked about at that age or that my peers would have talked about. They’re, you know, young people are so thoughtful and and so aware of life around them.

That’s not to say that they’re infallible or like fully immersed in everything that’s going on. Yeah, I’m not trying to say it and him and I in an idealized kind of way, but they give a shit about what goes on in their world. And and so many of them are empowered to do something about it. And again, like it doesn’t need to be something grand.

It can just be a small action, a small word an attitude. And it just, it builds on that. So it’s, it’s been really cool to see. Just how deep of an understanding and more important than you caring they have for each other and, and the world that they’re inheriting. Yeah. And it’s just, it’s so striking sometimes when I stepped back from it for a second and just, you know, do a quick contrast of what was going on with me at that age. Like I had so much less of that kind of self-awareness and that care for the bigger picture. So I’m really, really hopeful and encouraged by that.

[00:45:32] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Yash, Impact Skateboard Club’s, programming, or to send a kid to skate camp visit www.impactskateclub.com. Have an empty warehouse in central Toronto? Or a lead on a suitable space for indoor programming? Impact would love to hear from you. You can follow along with Yash on his mission to help kids learn more about emotional wellbeing and social skills through skateboarding and social action. On Instagram @impactskateclub.

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher from Pillars of Light came together in the darkest part of the pandemic, with the goal to spread love and light throughout the world. In this episode, we learn how the two explored the one-for-one model and other ways to give back, before settling on a partnership with GivePower. We discover why they chose luxury candles and why they went from pouring their own to partnering with a manufacturer in Montreal. We bring to light the unique challenges of launching a product in COVID times, learn what it means to be purpose- first. Hear what they learned about candle safety and funding for female-founded companies, and why after committing to bringing clean drinking water to 1 Million People, they feel so hopeful for the future. 

If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon and how they’re Giving love through light—with a 1-for-1 approach visit www.pillarsoflight.co. Looking for that perfect gift? Their giveback model means that your purchase gives access to 5 years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on Instagram @pillars_of_light.co

Links from this episode

• Pillars of Light Co.

• GivePower

Episode Transcript

 

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: It’s 2021 in the middle of Canadian winter and in the middle of the pandemic when friends, family, and community members were isolated and really struggling. Two friends decided to come together to spread a little light and the two who live more than two hours apart, connected online and over the phone to chat about creating a business. With the idea to create a product rooted in people and purpose that would bring a sense of hope to those around them. But they also wanted to focus on social impact and giving back. Spreading light all over the world as a symbol of life-giving hope.

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher met in the health and wellness space. And as former co-workers, they had always dreamed of finding a way to collaborate together. Sharing similar values, both wanted to create meaningful impact in some way. And leaning on Janey’s experience nursing in Africa, and their shared desire to support women and families, Pillars of Light was born.

And the truth is that even now more than 3.5 billion people around the world live without access to reliable electricity. Every 90 seconds, a child dies of waterborne illness and disease. And organizations like GivePower supply, clean, and safe water to those in developing countries. And it was the perfect choice for the give back model for Pillars of Light.

I asked Janey and Shannon to describe Pillars of Light in one sentence. They call it a luxury candle company with a lasting purpose where every purchase of their candles gives five years of access to clean drinking water to someone in need in a water scarce region around the world

[00:04:07] Janey Snelgrove: I’m Janey Snelgrove and I’m a founder of Pillars of Light co.

We’re both moms, we’re both wives. We both are entrepreneurs. We’ve been in entrepreneurship for over 20 years, each of us. And we’ve always been about helping people. And so when Shannon and I had been, over the years, getting to know each other and working we’ve often said, oh, we should do something right. We should do something outside of this. And it wasn’t until a conversation during the pandemic, when we’re both in lockdown that we thought maybe there’s something we can do because there’s a lot of fear. There’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s just a lot of angst in the world and we were feeling it and, we do a lot of personal development and, we’ve worked through a lot of things, a lot of mindset and we were feeling it and we were like, you know what, if we’re feeling it, I’m sure other people are feeling it. And what can we do to make a difference? Because right now we feel like we can’t do a lot, but what can we do?

[00:05:02] Shannon Fisher: I’m Shannon Fisher, the other half of Pillars of Light.  We had this conversation like a girlfriend conversation, does, we go from one thing to the next, to the next. And we were starting to set some goals and dreams and adjust what our future could look like moving out of this. We felt like we just had an opportunity to, to lean in and to ask some bigger questions. What if we could actually start something that made a significant change in the world? And I ought to be honest, I think it was the first time for me in, in a while. That I felt hope again. I had been quite sick prior, uh, for a couple of years. And it was the first time for me that I was just like, I felt, there was some light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And so we were excited to jump in and learn more but what we could do with.

[00:05:48] Jennifer Chua: Now it’s immediately evident when you look at your website or your social media, that creating an impact and environmental responsibility and just being a purpose-based business is so important to you. But what led you to see the world this way? Is there an event that stands out in your mind?

[00:06:05] Janey Snelgrove: I grew up on a farm and my parents brought in students to work for a couple months from all over the world. And so we had someone from Sri Lanka from south America. Oh gosh, just different places. And some other Canadians from other provinces would come to, and it started my quest as a child to think, oh, not everyone lives like we do in Ontario. Not everyone eats the same food. Not everyone has the same background, the same experience. And so it really started this quest for me of, oh, what’s it like in other parts of the world. Growing up. I think I was just really also taught that, when we have, we can share, there’s always enough to share. And so, I was fortunate to be able to go to Guyana when I graduated as a nurse and, volunteer for a month. And my husband, also was there and we experienced firsthand, living in another culture and we experience what it was like to live without electricity. And there was times when, like we had electricity, but there was times when the power would go out in the hospital or in the place where we stayed. And it really opened my eyes to how frustrating that is. You’re in the middle of a shower and the lights go out and it’s at night and you’re like, how do I get how to get around?

And you don’t have candles set up and you’re not prepared. And I realized this is a, this is something that like, people make a lot of people around the world, almost a billion people around the world deal with every day. And for me, it was just so eye-opening and so. As I’ve grown in entrepreneurship, one thing that I’ve always thought of is what can we do to help other people, like, it’s great to have products that can help people here in north America.

And when Shannon and I were creating our candles, we thought, first we have to love our customers and really let them know that what we’re putting into their home is luxury. It’s beautiful. They’re going to love to look at it, but then what’s in, it is actually supporting them, with a wellness based essential oils and healthy, a healthy product.

But then we also thought, okay, what can we do beyond that? And when we started to dig in and think, okay, this is an opportunity to do a one for one model. You know what what’s happening around the world with electricity. And when we discovered there is so many people living every night in darkness, we knew there was something we can do. And so we evolved from thinking about, okay, if we were to, how to candle company, what could we give as part of our one for one, the story evolved into water.

[00:08:35] Shannon Fisher: We realized really quick that the world needed more love and light in the world. Janey had a contact with friends that lived in Malawi and, it was that email back that I think that for me, just really affirmed that we had an opportunity. We had an in a, in a responsibility. I’ve never had a chance to travel to a third world country in the sense that same way as Janey has, but I I’ve often wanted to really impact those that are, extremely less fortunate. And, one of the things that we realized is that we necessarily didn’t also want to take our first world view of what we think people need. We really wanted to hear and learn what is actually required. Like we could go in with our own moody system, but what is actually needed. And we started just asking some questions.

And when we got this response back from this beautiful gentleman that lived in Malawi, there was just such a hook, right. There was like, okay, I just felt so morally obligated. So, from one conversation leads to the next we knew that, we could bring a product to market and, we went everywhere. We were like, okay, do we bring candles into people’s homes? And that could provide light, this one for one model. And then we, of course we quickly realized that’s probably not the safest measure to bring a candle into someone’s hut because we don’t want to ever cause a fire. So we were like, okay, let’s look at solar based products and, just getting off the ground and being startup. We just started to say, okay, what can we do next? What’s that next step? A friend that we had met actually started to help us develop our brand. And he just really believed in what we were doing, he introduced us to a company called gift power, the gift power foundation, I should say. And when we met gift power, we were like, oh my goodness, like they’re doing everything that we believe in and they’re on the ground. And every single dollar, like it was literally this moment, we were like, okay, they are, they’re doing it right. The money goes right to the ground. They already had a partnership covering all of their administrative costs. And, for them, they realize the same thing that we did that this, electrical poverty was so significant that they started lighting up schools. They started bringing light in through solar based energy, but then what they found next was even more, a significant problem was the lack of access to clean drinking water. Every two minutes a child dies of waterborne disease, as mothers, we were like, it’s a no brainer. Okay, how do we partner? And what do we do next?

[00:11:05] Jennifer Chua: People that are such passionate change makers, like the two of you, I’m sure that this whole idea of using something to create change didn’t just start when you were adults, even. I’m wondering if either one of you have moments in your childhood that you’re remembering that you look back on now and say, yo yes I was always primed to be a change.

[00:11:24] Shannon Fisher: I always wanted to make a really big, big impact in the world. I didn’t necessarily really know how that was going to be. I’m always like laugh and say in a small town girl living in a lonely world, but it was, I always just felt that I was called to do big work. I think we can do community-based work, which is fantastic locally. But there’s just been this calling in my heart forever, as long as I can remember to do something more significant. It just felt right when, sharing this opportunity with friends, some of my closest friends were like, this makes complete sense. This is exactly what you’ve always talked about. This is what you’ve always dreamt about and just really excited that you’re going for it.

[00:12:05] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me, it was more of the perspective of, from that young age, seeing that there are people around this world that have less than I do. And just realizing that we all have a place and as a woman, Knowing that there’s more than one way to make change and change can sometimes be just being the kind person on the school bus to the stranger, to the new kid.

Right. And I was often that kid that would like, welcome the new kid because I didn’t want them to feel like they were different than us. And so, I think as, as women, Shannon and I, as we’ve gotten to know each other, I think both of us, just from the bottom of our heart, we, we believe in people.

We just believe that each and every one of us have something inside of us and that we’re here for a purpose and a reason. And when I started to realize that, women just disproportionately are affected by lack of water, I thought, gosh, we’ve had this conversation. What would it be like to be a mom. Having to pull water every day for our kids. Like the amount of time that would require how that would limit your ability to just be with your kids, to make food, to teach even, to get a job.

Each and every one of us have an ability to do something. And I don’t think it has to be anything huge or spectacular. It’s just something. And so when Shannon and I set out for our Pillars of Light, obviously we wanted to create something amazing for people who received the candle. But we also wanted to inspire people to know that when you buy this, you are doing something, you are helping someone in this farther place. Probably another mom, just like you or another student received water that they currently aren’t receiving. And so. to create something where people could join us in community because really community is what drives any kind of change. It’s not one person, it’s a community.

And so Pillars of Light is really an opportunity for people to come together and why, whether they purchase the candle for themselves, or they purchase it for somebody else that might be going through a challenging time. We can know that together, we really are making a difference. And that’s why, one of the right away, we were like, together, we are killers of light because it’s not just Shannon and I it’s going to take a whole village.

[00:14:26] Jennifer Chua: What was that conversation like when you decided that you want to work together? You’ve decided that maybe you have an idea for how you can create impact. How did that conversation go between the two of you?

[00:14:35] Shannon Fisher: Janey and just chatted for years and I often seek her as a confidant and just a really great friend. And I think because of the personal development work we’ve done throughout the years, we were really able to quickly realize that we both had different strengths in different buckets. There was immediate trust there right away, uh, that, we’ve gone through hard times, uh, together we’ve had to do hard work together.

We’ve had to, really rally at times and, in any partnership it’s, it’s not always, roses and there’s going to be hard conversations. We’re both faith-based women. And we just said, Hey, if it’s going to be it’s up to it’s up to him. And let’s just kind of continue to lean in. It’s been the most beautiful work that I’ve done in my career up to this point. So I think one conversation just has led to the next, to be honest.

[00:15:28] Janey Snelgrove: Yeah, we’re dreamers. Right. But we’re also doers. And so, we, when in our initial conversations it was like, okay, well, if we’re going to do this because a, we have other businesses, we have fizzy families, this better be something good. Like we’re not just in it just to touch the waters, we’re in it to like dive in and see that ripple. And so we knew that our partnership was going to be really important. I sometimes we have these doubts that we’re like, what are we doing? How is this going to work? Like, who are we? We’ve never been in the candle industry before. We’ve never been in manufacturing. These are all big jumps. They’re not just little baby steps. It’s like a giant leap. But we’ve always come back to, we’re in this together, we’re problem solvers.

And most importantly, it’s going to take a team. And so we’ve been able to put amazing people around us to help us to see our mission. And we keep grounded in, what, if we hit our goal of impacting a million people, fantastic. But if we only help one person have water for five years, freaking fantastic.

When we have those days of like, what are we doing? We boil it down to, okay, what’s the big picture. And the big picture is helping people. And so, one day at a time, that’s all we can do one day at a time.

[00:16:40] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to look into the one for one model, what other avenues for giving back were you exploring?

[00:16:46] Shannon Fisher: When we first started we were just looking at some different models and, Janey had got a great pair of Bomba socks for Christmas. And so she was explaining this to me and, I’ve always been very intrigued in the one for one model and just even socially responsible businesses. and so again, like we, when we decided to do this, it was like, okay, we’re just not going to be a typical candle company. So we wanted to redefine this industry. We also wanted to redefine, women partnership in business. And so we had a couple of key goals. And so we looked at the one for one, you need to be honest.

At first we were like, let’s, let’s just see what’s available. And we thought, well, maybe we would create that one for one. And we would be able to do both sides. And when we were just really focused initially on our own product innovation, like what were we going to actually, what we’re going to give to our customers in order to create the one for one when we met with gift powder, we looked at a few other organizations.

But that was actually first conversation we actually had with the company. And it just felt right. It just checked all the boxes. So you didn’t really have to go into any further discovery. At this point, of course, knowing that there we’ll probably have other partnerships along the way, uh, this just kind of met everything that we were looking for at the moment.

[00:17:54] Janey Snelgrove: We wanted it simple. Because we know that people’s attention is so short and there’s so many different, great products out there, but we wanted it to be able to say, Hey, if you take the time to buy this one candle for yourself for someone else, here’s what it equals. Looking at, Bombus looking at, Tom’s looking at some of the other companies out there that have the one for one, we really tried to study. What, why have they done well? And it’s because it’s simple. You by one candle, you give five years of drinking water, 1,825 days of clean drinking water with this one luxury candle.

So for us, we thought let’s follow what has worked with some other companies and see if we can just build on upon it and grow from there. And like Shannon said, give power’s our first partnership, but as we grow, we’re open to looking at other ways that we can have impact, but we know the power of solar energy and we know the power of water.

When we were chatting about what was going on in the world and distress, people were under in the fear, the uncertainty, the loneliness the loss, like so many people have lost jobs. They’ve lost family members. They’ve lost opportunities to have a wedding and to celebrate they’ve lost holidays for the last two years. There’s been so much change and uncertainty that we really started look at okay. Fear is to darkness what love is to light. And so when we decided to start this candle company, we thought there’s so many parallels that if people could really dig in, that these candles are actually reminders, that light is greater than the darkness that love casts out all fear. The impact that we wanted to have obviously was globally with our gift back. But locally, when someone purchased their candle, we want them to just see the power and the reminder that sometimes we all need a reminder of the love and the light inside of us, that we can make a difference. We want it to have that global impact, but first we want it to have that local impact with our customer who was able to really just get this beautiful candle, this beautiful curated scent and be reminded of the power of love and the power of light that they have within them.

[00:20:12] Jennifer Chua: When we spoke earlier, we spoke about mental health being something that is important to both of you as well. And I was wondering how Pillars of Light either affects mental health now, or if you have any plans going forward to do impact in that area. I was just wondering about the whole mental health piece of this brand?

[00:20:33] Shannon Fisher: Great question, Jennifer, Janey and I were actually chatting and this has come up quite a few times for us is. I think prior to the pandemic, people were struggling. We live really busy lives. People sometimes haven’t been managing their life as much as they, I think they would like to and then the pandemic hit. And what we do know is, the next kind of pandemic, so to speak is mental health. And I do a lot of work in this area. And I’ve seen a lot of people continue to struggle. And it’s one of those things do we see ourselves taking a, uh, an opportunity here potentially. But what we do know is we’ve had some just extraordinary feedback that people are lighting this candle, and it’s helping them. It’s helping them with their mental clarity. It’s helping them recognize that even when I in, maybe, uh, having a rough day or a dark day, I can look at that candle and it’s reminding me of that inner light.

And that was really important to Jamie and I, because we can often get caught up in the weeds and we can often get caught up in our own darkness and sometimes just letting that candle and just watching it. Is, is that opportunity to be reminded that the light that’s within us and the other part is I don’t have to extinguish my light in order to light up Janey. Like I get to keep my light on while I also could like her candle. And that was another big part of our movement is to remind people that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And in the simplest form, if we can make life really complicated, as we all know, but if we lean into love and we lean into light there’s going to be brighter days ahead. And we really wanted to help people just to be reminded of that and that there’s people there in the world that to care for them. And again, through community that things, things can be okay.

[00:22:32] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to actually look at making candles and manufacturing candles, did you find anything surprising?

[00:22:40] Janey Snelgrove: It’s interesting when we were first talking about it was right in the middle of the pandemic, the one of the lockdowns, and we were like, oh, let’s create a new hobby candles. And we soon realized that candle making is an art and a science. And we spent hours like hours. Our kids were involved. Our husbands were involved. Our husbands were so happy when we decided that we are not makers. Our gift is not making. Our gift is sharing stories and, and opening and helping businesses grow. Oh boy, our friends, they sniffed some smelly candles and we had a lot of funny laughs, hats off to the makers out there who have really understood the science and the art of it. And, and one thing that was important to us was using quality ingredients and it’s expensive. Using quality ingredients. But you can see the difference in the quality of the ingredients, how it affects the burn, the smell, like just the whole thing.

So we found a Canadian manufacturing partner that has been building candles for over 25 years. They are very, value-based very, very socially responsible. And as soon as we met them, went to their facility, got to meet the owner of the family. We knew here was another partner that was in alignment with us and we could trust them. We knew what they were creating and we’re really excited that they have come on board with us because we’ve been able to create two beautiful scents and more to come.

[00:24:18] Shannon Fisher: I just giggle from the first part. Then we started this and I still remember Janey and I sitting down at the table going okay, like, this is all well and good, but how are we, going back to the vision. It’s going to take so much longer for us to create this impact if we’re trying to pour candles and do all these other pieces. And so we knew that if we wanted to really make the impact, like Janey mentioned is that we had to find the right partner. To partner with people who have experience and so much experience, just made, made that transition a no brainer for us.

[00:24:52] Jennifer Chua: Have you discovered any costs associated with creating something like a candle that you might just pick up in any store, like in terms of environmental impact or impact on your health? Is there anything about candles that we need to be mindful of?

[00:25:04] Shannon Fisher: We went through like a really steep learning curve. And over the last couple of years, of course heard soy candles, soy-based candles were definitely the better way to go. I’ve been a candle connoisseur for many years. It’s probably my most favorite gift to give is to give a candle. And when we started to do some research into the wax. I was kind of shocked because yes, you can see a candle in our community for a couple of bucks to we found some candles that were priced, small atriums candle price at $125.

And we’re like, whoa, what is the difference here? And what we started to see things like petroleum based products even some of the blends, you don’t necessarily know if that’s a petroleum blend or not. And unfortunately petroleum-based candles are actually quite toxic to our health. So that was the one thing was making sure we found wax that was very safe for our customers. Both being in wellness is really, really important. The second thing was then finding a scent and Janey and I we scratched our heads on this one for, I felt like weeks, trying to figure it out and really understand what is that scent that people love.

And then what is the scent that also gives people headaches? I’ve got great girlfriends that were like, oh, I struggled buying candles because they burned them for a few minutes and I ended up with a wicked headache and I blow it out. And what we started to see again is that there can be often more phthalate in some of those products. They’re more synthetic. And what we realize is, again, is finding natural based aromas that were phthalate free, essential oil base. Initially we’re like we only want essential oils. But we quickly realized that that is all well and good, but not always easy in a candle because the fact that they need some other stabilizers, but we can use other and natural aromas and then the products that were phthalate free.

That was the second pillar. And then the third pillar, if you can believe it or not, the little wick that goes in those candles, often sometimes have lead in the, can you believe it lead in wicks. And so again, things we don’t want burning things I definitely do not want around my kids or, we have a, literally a funny farm Jeanie has a beautiful dog as well. And so we wanted to make sure, again, really high quality 100% soy base. That was what we were learning was probably going to be the best for our burn time, making sure that scent was sophisticated and strictly healthy and that we had lead free wicks. We feel confident, making sure people buy our product that they’re, we’re not putting their health in jeopardy.

[00:27:43] Jennifer Chua: As someone in the consumer product space. And obviously through this podcast, in this project and just meeting with impact business owners, I’ve learned a lot about lead and phthalates and how they are in an astonishing amount of products that we have in levels that are really not safe. I’m just wondering if you’ve noticed in this period of time, if consumers are valuing that information yet, or if it’s resonated with. What do you think is going on in terms of consumer product behavior?

[00:28:17] Janey Snelgrove: I think it’s starting. I think it’s just starting. So it was interesting in our initial research and just talking to different friends and people, we would talk about is soy base important to you? And they’re like, no. And I’m like, oh, tell me more about that. And , they didn’t even know. They didn’t know there was a difference. They didn’t know what a candle was made of and why soy was better. So I think that it’s growing, the movement is growing for having natural eco-friendly products. But I still think we’ve got a way to go. So that’s partly why, our job is also to educate.

[00:28:54] Jennifer Chua: You’ve touched on that you were going to your friends and you were asking them questions. You were getting your husbands involved. You were really talking to other people in the wellness community, but when was the moment that you really realized that this could work or that people would be interested in the idea of, of your business?

[00:29:09] Janey Snelgrove: We did a lot of research and we were like, okay, what will people buy candles? Like is candles even a thing. And when we started to look at the research 75% of women over 25 is really the target because they’re the ones that buy candles. And then we looked at the buying behaviors of that. And I can’t remember the stat off the top of my head, but a high percentage of people are now looking to see, is this company socially responsible what are their values? And they will choose to purchase from a company that has values and alignment. Just alone on the research, we knew that, okay, people’s buying behaviors are supporting this type of business

[00:29:49] Shannon Fisher: People even over the last little bit are looking for companies that what Janey mentioned, we kind of said that we were purpose and then people and then profit. So it wasn’t going to be the other way around. We had to have our purpose had, have our big, why we were doing this. We know it’s going to take incredible people both impacting people and of course, people to purchase. And, and then after that, if we kept those two things, as our priority profits will happen. And I would say, there’s been moments when we were like, is this going to work? And we went into a pre-launch and we launched our presale because we dealing with some supply chain things and all the stuff in the pandemic, they were like, okay, you never want a week crazy for starting a business in the middle of a pandemic where, there’s going to be, get things shipped.

And then we’re like, okay, let’s go into presale. And we ran an event and then we had people on there that registered. It will always be a moment kind of marked in my memory of when people started to order. And I was like, okay, we’ve got proof of concept. People want this. And so now it’s just up to us to increase that discoverability and just let people know that we’re here.

[00:31:00] Jennifer Chua: I wonder how that impacted some of the decisions that you’ve made, or if you have any learnings from that really unique experience of starting a business in the last two years?

[00:31:10] Janey Snelgrove: I think entrepreneurs sometimes have a dream and then they figure it out after. Right. And we just know as entrepreneurs, problem solving is right up there on your to-do list. Like curve balls come at, you left right and center. So I think part of it was we went into this with an attitude. Okay, this is a new gig for us. This is something new and we know we’re going to need to grow, and we know we’re going to need to have advisors. And we also are going to probably expect some challenges that being said, building in a pandemic was way more challenging than I even anticipated, partly because we’ve also never been in the manufacturing industry ourselves in terms of understanding supply chain delivery, demand costs.

And so firsthand, we got to see how, quoted on one thing and then a couple of weeks later. Oh no, no, no. We got, we’ve got to go up because of X, Y, and Z factor. And so, That was one thing. And then, delays, we had we’ve created a custom luxury box and it’s still not in our hands.

And we thought it was going to be ready for our launch in November. And so we had to pivot to find another box to just, do something as quickly as possible while still holding to our brand commitment of luxury. And so we had some, late night calls some times of like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do?

Are we going to make it, and so thankfully some advisers around us to just, calm us down a little bit, take us off the ledge and to remember that, okay, there’s always a solution. We just have to dig in to try and find it. So I have much more appreciation for product based company.

And for the industry as a whole, just really trying to deliver on their promises. And when you create, when you communicate to your customer, you want to stand behind that, but sometimes things out of your control come into play, and then you have to go back and say, actually, now we have to try to do this.

And so just really hoping to ask for grace, from people and also to extend grace to people we’re working with, who have had their timelines changed. And so, it has been a huge, it has been a huge learning for us. That’s for sure. But it’s been good. It’s been.

[00:33:41] Shannon Fisher: We didn’t really know anything different. We haven’t brought another product like this to market before. And so yes, we, I think have been faced with all our other challenges first year speaking to other advisors and, people we know in business that just kind of, they’re like good on you, girls for, doing this because you probably could have been maybe easier times for sure.

But at the same point, what we both know is is that we can do hard things and, as long as you’re willing to kind of take a deep breath and, calm your mind for a moment, look at some other solutions around us. We’re like, okay, we can still hold true to what we wanted. who we are. And we can still provide this great quality product. And so it has been such a, an exercise, like true exercise of, leaning in having great faith and honestly trusting the process. Like there’s we can talk about that, but when you’re actually living it, it’s totally different.

[00:34:37] Jennifer Chua: Are there any other unique challenges to operating a purpose first business that we don’t usually think about? Are people going into business or not thinking about.

[00:34:47] Janey Snelgrove: I think so. And we’re learning as we go through, right? This is all new for us, when you price your product, you have to read like every other entrepreneur understands their revenue and their profit. But for us, it’s like, okay, we have made a commitment with the amount that we are going to give, it’s also the purpose behind why we’re doing what we’re doing. And so we want to make sure that we can follow through and really have an impact. And so there is a balance of figuring out, financially. Making sure that your company is profitable so that you can have as much impact as you want to have.

We have to find a way to be profitable so that we can give. And that has been, I think, a learning curve as well, but also it’s our commitment. Like, that’s why we’re doing this. It’s not something that every entrepreneur has to deal with because we’re making our commitment upfront and other companies will often say, oh, sure, I’ll give out of my.

Right. And once they know they profits, then they give, and we’re like, oh, we’re committing to this. Whether we sell a candle or not, if we just sell one candle, this is what we’re doing. But there’s obviously costs. And so, I think that is the difference is that we’re making our commitment upfront where a lot of other companies make their commitment after they’ve sold. And that definitely makes it a little more challenging, but it also shows where our commitment is.

Shannon and I are very much believers in the ability of women when they put their minds to something. But I think one of the challenges that we have come firsthand to is financing for women startup businesses. And how is that easy? Thankfully we’ve been able to, start this up with our own equity. And when I went in, I had this assumption, oh yeah. The bank’s going to give us some money. I ask it to be easy. Oh yeah, we’ll get it. And wow. They don’t want to help you until you have two years of proof that it’s working. I guess what I’m trying to say is I want to encourage the women who are thinking of starting something that there’s always a way, but to expect there are challenges as a woman receiving financing.

[00:37:07] Shannon Fisher: There was this moment along our road where we were like, okay, like we’ve been in business. We have other businesses. We are established women in business. This should be easy. Right. And when we went down that road and started knocking on doors, it was a wake-up call for us to be like, whoa, whoa, what? No? Like what do you mean? And we had some beautiful feedback from people like, wow, this is like the most extensive business plan we’ve seen. And we’re like, oh, okay. Like giving us a pat on the back. And so we had done our due diligence. We had done the work and I think there’s a lot of times women go into business, we are responsible, we do our work. We dig in, we find out, especially if this is not something that you want to just kick the can at. Right. We wanted to go big on this project and it was frustrating. I remember having that moment going, okay, like, how is this going to happen? And we just, we just figured it out. And I think to that point is you just have to continue to lean in, start asking bigger questions. And then just allowing one door to open to the next and, thank heavens we’ve been able to strap this. I think here in Canada, I had a belief that this would be easy for women, but we started looking through different grants, janey and I are both over 40. Even that annoyed me, I was like, why is it only for women under 40 can get money? We’ve just saw lots of holes that are still are still within the business sector when it comes to funding that Just need to be closed. And I think to Janey’s point that if we can start to have more of these conversations, there are incredible people in the world that I think if they know how they can also solve a problem, we can really help more businesses come into marketplace of people who want to do really, really big and great. They just need some great people around them to help them see that vision to, to the end. When we were starting through the middle of the pandemic, so many people have had to cut back, and not having the same funding, not having the same opportunity to network . And so now, just even reflecting upon that, we put ourselves in a position where we just haven’t been able to meet up with as many people as we’d like to. But there’s always great opportunities as we continue to move forward.

[00:39:19] Jennifer Chua: And what about the children that you are impacting through your work and giving clean water to in Africa? How about them? Are you hopeful for their future?

[00:39:31] Shannon Fisher: Oh, my goodness. Beyond, beyond hopeful. Janey and I had these moments where we just sit and think about them and we can’t wait for the day that we can actually get over there and do a project. But we just know, even as mothers, like, if you can give your child something with like clean water, it’s such a necessity, just what that gives to someone to, to know that that child could have a brighter life. It just, it just means a lot, like it’s it’s work that I don’t know. I’m gonna get too emotional.

[00:40:11] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me too, it is. And we talked about this as being moms. I don’t even have any idea what it’s like being a mom where you have to go get water and thinking, oh gosh, what if it’s dirty? Right. Or seeing your child becomes sick. And so I think Shannon and I think about the comfort a mother would have knowing that, okay, this child has access to clean water for five years.

Right? Like, think about that, what that would do to take that level of stress off of you. In those hard days that we have, we have to remember, we’re not selling candles. We are helping people. And that’s what we have to keep our eye on. And so, I mean, we, it’s so funny as moms and as women, we have some good doozy cries it’s because we realize that what we have the opportunity to do can really make a difference.

And as an entrepreneur, when this becomes your baby You just want to make sure it’s a baby that you’re going to spend a lot of time on it is going to have an impact in a way that nothing else can. It’s just remembering. It’s just like, we’re asking our customers to remember the power of love and light within them. We also have to be reminded of, of, the power that, that we can have to help change someone’s life that we may never even get to meet. We probably will never get to meet, but just knowing that there is an opportunity to do something at the end of the day, when you’ve worked all day, it feels really good.

[00:41:47] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon, and how they’re giving love through light with a one for one approach, visit Pillars of Light.co. Looking for that perfect gift. Their give back model means that your purchase gives access to five years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on instagram@pillars_of_light.co.

Melanie Cote from Social Enterprise Do Good Donuts is using donuts to teach young adults with barriers to employment job readiness skills. In this episode, we talk about the realities that Melanie faces as the parent of a child with Williams syndrome and learn how she’s changing how people think about hiring youth with intellectual disabilities. We discover why youth with these challenges face an 85% unemployment rate, how Do Good Donuts connect their trainees with fulfilling and meaningful work in their community, why this inclusive employment matters to all of us, how business owners can support these initiatives and why, they’ll want to, why Melanie chose to start with donuts, and how she’s used the pilot program to bake hopeful futures.

If you want to learn more about Melanie and how she’s helping youth with intellectual disabilities to train for mainstream jobs visit https://www.dogooddonuts.org/ Want to help support the trainees by ordering some donuts for yourself? Or have the team train some young people for your company? Interested in having us train young people?  You can connect with Melaine and follow along on her mission to bake brighter futures on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram 

Links from this episode

• Do Good Donuts
• The Leslieville Farmer’s Market
• Williams syndrome
• Hire persons with disabilities, Government of Canada

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: If you’re visiting a farmer’s market in Toronto on a Sunday morning and happen to come across a booth selling donuts, it’s worth taking a closer look. You may stumble across some delicious flavors like Mohito, blue slushie, lavender, lemon sugar, rainbow sprinkles or even creative seasonal favorites like Turkey stuffing. And you may be enthusiastically greeted by Alma an eight year old. Founder Melanie’s daughter and the reason Do Good Donuts exists.

Do Good Donuts focuses on more than just these classic confections. It’s an employment social enterprise that hires and trains young adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. Offering them the job before the job to help bridge the gap between programs and the employers that are waiting to hire them. Do Good Donuts has just wrapped their pilot program. They hired three young people with disabilities and ran a booth at a local farmer’s market all summer.

Melanie Cote is a mom of two. She has Alma and then also an 11 year old son. She spent her career in advertising, working on copy and creative strategy. But when Alma was born with intellectual disability, Melanie wanted to do something to improve the outlook for her daughter’s future. So three years ago, she began to look into ways to help young people who are at the age now where employment can make all the difference, knowing that she needed to do something to create change in this world. For Alma, for her son, for her community, her family and other families facing similar challenges.

Melanie grew up in the town of Espanola. If you listen to the episode with an Anong Beam from Beam Paints, it’s near there, in Northern Ontario. Located close to Manitoulin island, Melanie’s father was a high school teacher there and the coach of the basketball team. The school was located near a first nations reserve and half of the kids he taught were indigenous. He helped them with basketball. And then also with their homework and encouraged the kids to continue their schooling. When he passed his funeral was held at the church on the reserve. And Melanie recalls that it was full of former students. Now grown men, recounting the stories of how her father had profoundly influenced how they thought about their futures. How he had changed their world. And how his support had meant everything.

[00:04:47] Melanie Cote:  I think it matters. My dad was a teacher and his approach to teaching was very inclusive and to make sure that everybody, who wanted to, got to college, even if maybe didn’t look like it was their path, like he was very committed to making sure his students got where they wanted to go in life. And I think that rubbed off on me and onto my sister, she’s a teacher. And I guess in some way, right now I am too a little bit. So there you go. I never thought of that before.

[00:05:14] Jennifer Chua: When you hear Melanie’s story, it’s obvious to see her father’s influence. She’s providing opportunities to young adults who otherwise would be left behind. She has a lot of ideas of how we as a society can support these initiatives. And we’ll go into that in a bit. And Melanie’s week with her trainees is jam packed. It’s her intent in the next session to find ways to scale back on her incredibly long hours and spend more time at home. The piece of Melanie’s story, that is the most interesting to me, is why she decided to do all of this in the first place.

[00:05:49] Melanie Cote: Do Good Donuts. My favorite topic.

[00:05:52] Jennifer Chua: Could you tell me how you came up with the idea to create basically a social enterprise that’s focused on donuts. And how you actually move that forward into an idea?

[00:06:03] Melanie Cote: Do Good Donuts, a social enterprise that sells donuts. First of all, people love donuts. Secondly I really wanted to create an employment skills training program that would be relevant and lead to jobs that already existed. So when you’re pushing water uphill, I think you pick the smallest tail to start. And a small hill for me is seeing that there are always job postings for people looking for people to work at McDonald’s and Tim Horton’s and burger king and Starbucks, and second cup. Those that those jobs were available. And despite the branding difference between them, a lot of the tasks are the same.

So if you teach someone how to prepare the ketchup and napkin and cup station at McDonald’s, you’re also teaching them how to prepare the sugar and stir stick packets at Starbucks and you’re teaching them how to do the little stand with the garbages at Tim Horton’s. And when you think about making a sandwich, you put something on the bottom and then you put a thing in a thing and a thing, and you put something else on the top, but you make an egg sandwich and a breakfast sandwich, the same way you make a pizza the same way you make a sub the same way.

So how could we create somewhere that would cover as many of those job tasks as possible to allow people to then be ready to work at any number of businesses. And how could we do it in a non-branded way so that Starbucks and McDonald’s and Tim Horton’s and burger king and pita pit and pizza, pizza, and subway, and the little family restaurant down the street, who’s always really appreciated their neighbor with down syndrome, but had no idea how to welcome them in the restaurant,could all see that they had the skills they needed to be effective more quickly at work and be ready to succeed and not needing that three or six or nine months of more supported employment to be able to be a valuable member of their staff. So the idea for Do Good Donuts was, first of all, people love donuts and it’s fun and it’s friendly and welcoming and they’re not perfect.

So if our staff is starting out and they’re doing donut finishing no donut is perfectly perfect. They’re all a little bit unique and it’s okay. that they are maybe are a little bit lopsided or there’s too many sprinkles, or there’s not quite enough sprinkles. It’s a safe space for learning and I donut shop and cafe has the ability to be a donut shop, but also do other baking also make sandwiches also have soup. So food prep, and beverage service and hot beverages and cold beverages. So the idea for Do Good Donuts was really how do we create a lab, that serves food, that has all of these skills checked off. And then what menu do we need to create to be able to teach all those skills? So it’s almost a backwards process of how do we build the training program that the hiring partners need, and what do we need to make in order for the people to be able to practice the skills.

[00:09:12] Jennifer Chua: Your daughter who inspired really you to go on this journey? Can you tell me a little bit more about her?

[00:09:18] Melanie Cote: Oh, my gosh Alma. Alma’s syndrome, Williams syndrome is sometimes called the opposite of autism because kids with Williams syndrome, generally speaking, not all, have an insatiable social drive. The need to connect with people is one of the driving forces of her life. And yet the inability to read social cues, the inability to follow social norms, a lot of those same challenges that are associated with autism. And that makes it difficult for some people who are autistic to make connections, exist within people with Williams syndrome only they’re overly friendly and overly social. It’s that next step? How do you then make a lasting relationship? That is a big gap in her learning. So she is both a fluffy ball of sunshine and light and very sad that she doesn’t have a best friend. She is doing really well in school all things considered. She does have a, very large nonverbal learning disability. She has some other things that make it hard for her at school, but all in all her health has been good, which is excellent. 80% of kids with William’s Syndrome I’m have open-heart surgery in the first year and ongoing heart surgery throughout their lives. And she’s so far in the 20% that has not required heart surgery, which is amazing for us. I’m very grateful for that, but she is just so delighted that Do Good Donuts exists. She comes to the tent, she yells “welcome to Do Good Donuts”, to all the people. She tells everybody at school to come and get the donuts. My son wrote a report on Do Good Donuts last year. It has been really something that’s brought us together and has allowed us to have a common interest and a common goal. It’s certainly become a big part of our family life. But even more than that, our kids recognize it as something where we have a donut shop, but it helps people. And so they’re really seeing that social enterprise connection in it, which I’m also excited about. That that’s managed to shine through for them is really meaningful to me.

[00:11:25] Jennifer Chua: I’d like to discover more why you chose to start a social enterprise.

[00:11:30] Melanie Cote: There were a number of things that happened. There was sort of a, a slow and steady climb up of a rise of stairs. When my daughter was five months old, we learned that she had a genetic condition called Williams syndrome, and that was really going to shape her future and what her life would be like. But it was also going to shape our future and what our lives would be like as a family, as her parents, my son’s life as her sibling. So that was sort of the first moment of change in my life. And then as the years went by, I spent a lot of time volunteering for the national syndrome that supports her disability. I met a number of other people who were at different points in the journey. I’ve met people right when they were diagnosed where I was all those years ago, and also people who are much further ahead of us on that journey, which is a really interesting window to the future.

So the more I learned about that window to the future was sort of the next step on the journey. And then the third step that I think probably the, the one that was the most. Influential in this decision where on one hand I had this incredibly deep and interesting and somewhat painful conversation with a family who were moving out of their town because their late teenage daughter was never going to be able to find work in that community.

So they were uprooting themselves from this place. They had lived for many years to move to a larger center where there might be a possibility that she might have a job one day. And to me, that was a heartbreaking thing because at the same time, in that week, in my career in advertising, I was working on a corporate social responsibility campaign for a large corporation who was partnering with the special Olympics and really excited to talk about the hiring program they were putting in place to ensure that young people with intellectual and developmental disabilities would have the opportunity to work.

And the town, this family lived in, had two outlets of that large corporation. And yet at the ground level, they knew that they wouldn’t hire in the community because they were hiring other teenagers. Their own kids’ friends. They were hiring the kids from the football team. They were hiring other kids.

And the huge disconnect between what the corporate world was doing in terms of taking credit for all of this hard work and ensuring that people would have jobs and how that was actually translating to the families was a broken system. And I wondered if there was a way to create something in between that could serve the young people and serve their journey on their way to employment, but also catch the eye and understand what those national hiring partners needed for the people who were actually interviewing and doing the jobs to say yes. And in that moment, the germ of an idea, the seed of Do Good Donuts came to life. How could we create something that bridges all of the work that I’ve done in my volunteer life for, and around, and with, family supporting people with disabilities and all the work I was doing in my corporate life to build, to build a bridge?

[00:14:36] Jennifer Chua: So before your daughter was diagnosed, did you ever think about this whole concept of like barriers to employment? Did that ever come up in your life

[00:14:46] Melanie Cote: No, no, I never thought about it. I did have a small glimpse in high school. Because in high school, I wanted to start a high school newspaper. And to do that, you need to have a staff member. A teacher has to be your advisor, and all of the teachers were already doing other clubs. And the only club, or the only teacher that wasn’t involved with the club was the life skills.

At that time, we call it the program life skills teacher, and he agreed to be the advisor, as long as I would put some of his students on our staff, because they had never been at a club before? And none of the other clubs had made space for them. And of course I have a Rebel’s heart and I didn’t know that they didn’t ever have a club.

And so of course I, I hardly agreed and they were amazing members of our staff. They did the photocopying, they did the stapling, they did all the organization. They deliver the papers to all the classrooms. And at the end of that year and the following year, I was the editor for two years. They had their picture in the.

In a club photo, which they, up until that point had only had their one personal photo in, you know, in their grade level. And for all of them, they were so thrilled because it was the only time they appeared in the yearbook more than once. So I knew that there were, I knew that there was things, there were things happening and that there were gaps in the lives and the community, and the sense of belonging for people with developmental disabilities and learning disabilities. But it hadn’t translated into the rest of my life until I had Alma. And then I remembered very clearly how much that picture in the yearbook meant.

[00:16:24] Jennifer Chua: Do you remember how the conversation with that teacher went at all? Like, how that conversation with him would have gone that would have influenced this decision to start this club under his guidance?

[00:16:36] Melanie Cote: I wanted to do something that no one had made space for me to do. And he wanted to do something that no one had made space for him to do, which was bring out a sense of community and belonging to his students. And I wanted to bring some different perspectives to the student body that maybe people weren’t thinking about.

So I, I don’t remember the specific words, but I do remember both of us feeling like the problem we had was the same, even though it was very different. That I wanted to feel like my Merry band of misfits should have a club that wasn’t cliquey and it didn’t exclude people because they were gay. We had a gay writer on our staff who was very quietly gay and not really openly out. We had an indigenous writer on our staff, I come from Northern Ontario, our school was split. It was half people who were not indigenous and half people who were indigenous. There was not a lot of other you know, vibrant backgrounds in small town, Northern Ontario, all that time ago.

But there were cliques, there were norms, there were ways that people fit in. And, and me with my combat pants that my dyed black hair and my Merry band of misfits wanted to have a club where we could be who we were and that we could express some opinions that probably other people had, but just didn’t really feel like they had the time and space and, and the platform to be able to express that it was okay to be different.

And I think that Mr. Debo really understood that we would be welcoming to different in terms of his kids, because that was really what the newspaper that I was starting was all about. It was about talking about all those other little things happening at school that, the most popular kids just didn’t see or tramped over or possibly caused.

[00:18:22] Jennifer Chua: You’re selling your donuts at farmer’s markets. Why did you make that choice?

[00:18:27] Melanie Cote: I started out at an initial incubator through the Toronto enterprise fund, and then I got a very small grant and wrote a business plan and a feasibility study and did all of the background work. And then I got all ready to go to pitch for funding on March 6th, 2020, which as you can imagine is a terrible time to have been finally ready to pitch for funding for a food service business that supports marginalized people at high risk with COVID. Bad news.

So rather than. Again, push water up a hill. That’s not going up. We took a break, we worked on governance. We worked on our board of directors. We’ve worked on other things and on a whim, I applied to my local farmer’s market. And part of the reason is their head volunteer is someone who has the same syndrome as my daughter, Corey has Williams syndrome. So I’ve known him a long time. We frequent the market. We’re big supporters. And I thought, why not? I mean, what’s the worst that could happen. Really at that point, the worst that could happen is we get in and we have to be ready to go in nine weeks, but you know, how could they possibly say yes, we, we don’t, we’re not even a thing yet. We just live on paper. And email came saying, congratulations, you have a spot at the farmer’s market. And I thought we have nine weeks to go from a plan on paper, to a working food service program and be prepared to hire trainees to start a training program we haven’t done yet. Surprise. So. Really the idea to apply for the farmer’s market was a way for us to start. We just needed to get started.

[00:20:03] Jennifer Chua: And where are you finding your trainees?

[00:20:05] Melanie Cote: We put on a large call far and wide. We put a job poster and application out through groups that support people with various disabilities. So we sent it to the down syndrome association. We sent it to some groups who support people with autism. I sent it through the Williamson community, people we know at special Olympics. We sent it to our local service providers and some other foundational partners that we’ve met along the way. And try to see who would come forward and apply. We weren’t sure if people were ready and willing to join a new program during the pandemic, or join us on this uncharted journey, we just kind of got out a megaphone and said, we have this new thing who wants to come on the journey with us. We did get 10 exceptional applicants. And we interviewed everyone. It was really hard to decide. It was a really hard to make a choice. We had the budget worked out to hire two people and we hired three because we had three exceptional candidates and it’s only money. And we held their start date until they could join us in person. So we’ve run a completely in person program and we pay them $15 an hour because that’s what people make.

[00:21:15] Jennifer Chua: When you began to look into employment opportunities for young people, when you were doing all of this research and maybe looking for trainees at that point, did you find anything surprising?

[00:21:26] Melanie Cote: I think the thing that’s most surprising, and the thing that continues to surprise me is that 85% of young people with intellectual and developmental disabilities are unemployed. And 15% of typically developing young people are unemployed. The gap for employment for young people with disabilities is cavernous and devastating. Of the young adults who are living with those disabilities now will never earn a paycheck in their life. And for someone like me who had a career who really valued work and being part of a team and being part of a community and being someone who contributes to something and who had a sense of independence and how little money in my pocket, it was really heartbreaking to me to think that that entire experience skips over so many people.

[00:22:18] Jennifer Chua: What are some of the costs we are not considering associated with leaving those with barriers to employment out of our workforce.

[00:22:27] Melanie Cote: Any times when a young individual finishes school special education can go up to age of 21. So they could be anywhere from 18 to 21. When they finished school, they have to go somewhere or do something or be with someone generally speaking.

So the costs are programming cost to the families and also to the social service system are the day programming and ongoing program supports that keep people living more vibrant lives, they’re expensive. There are barriers. They generally are populated with families who have strong advocate parents, which is a real privilege to be able to take the time to become a strong advocate. There are the costs associated with the family member who has to ensure that the person is safely able to go to and from the program, the program may be a half day program. A lot of times, one of the family members leaves work when their child finishes school because they need someone who can either ensure that they can get to their program.

They may only be able to afford to send them two days a week. So they have three days where someone has to be home. They may not be able to send them at all depending on financial situation or space in the program. And so there’s often a loss of one income source in the family. This is extra challenging for families that have only one parent figure in the home because the divorce rate for families raising young people with disabilities is far higher than the average divorce rate.

It’s almost 80% of families divorce. So there are a lot of single parents raising young people with disabilities. And then there are costs in terms of mental health, physical health, which both deteriorate. There’s the ongoing cost of social support for young people with disabilities. Everyone is entitled to social support with a disability with through ODSP, but there are additional costs associated with the ongoing and long-term care.

And then there’s a cost and quality of life for people. If you don’t have a place to go, you don’t feel a sense of belonging. You don’t have purpose. If you’re not continuing to use the skills that you did acquire in school, they start to deteriorate. If you don’t have a place to go or a job or some place that is pushing you to move forward, most of the individuals tend to recede. So reading skills go down, math skills go down, personal independent skills go down. And reading is important. If you can read well enough to read a bus schedule, to understand how to use the bank machine, to read the street signs, to be able to order food, you don’t need to be able to read war and peace, but a lot of these young people’s reading skills will backslide, which means for them to get a job five years from now or 10 years from now or 15 years from now it really lessens that chance for opportunity.

A lot of parents call it the gap or the cliff. Once they leave school, that our society really hasn’t figured out an excellent plan or pathway for adults who don’t fit into the typical norm of the employee or the volunteer or some of the other roles that are out there in the world. Many don’t marry. So it’s not like they have a same age partner in life. So they rely on their parents and siblings to give them that that family structure.

You can imagine everyone who says, Oh, as soon as my child leaves to go to university or college, I’m going to do this. I’m going to fix up my living room or go on that trip I always wanted to take or start to go camping or take up my hobby again, or pick up more hours at work. For many of the families raising young people with intellectual developmental disabilities, that time is never coming. The waitlist for independent living or group homes is about 20 years in Toronto. Once your child reaches the age of 18. They’re often in their forties before they have a space within a group home, which you can imagine if you’ve never left for a college dorm until you were 40, what it would feel like leaving the house for the first time.

Doughnuts are really cute and really fluffy and have lots of sprinkles on them. But what you don’t see behind the donuts is really the opportunity to give someone the potential of having an independent, meaningful life in whatever that looks like for them through work that pays them a decent wage and allows them the opportunity to really integrate into society outside of their family and allows their family to experience what it’s like to have that shift from having children that they care for in their home until they become sort of more independent adults to having an independent adult who is at least somewhat participating as an adult in the world. Like, we were all meant to.

[00:27:22] Jennifer Chua: I know I’ve asked you this, million ways, but I was wondering if I could just ask you one more time Why does this work matter?

[00:27:28] Melanie Cote: This work matters to me because I can’t keep myself from dying and I need to know my daughter’s going to be okay. Everywhere all over the world two o’clock in the morning, there are parents raising kids who don’t necessarily have a place in the world trying to figure out how they can not die. And none of us can. But if we can do enough to know that our kids will be able to take care of themselves well enough to be a statistic. Like 85% of young women with intellectual and developmental disabilities are sexually abused, that people with intellectual and developmental disabilities life expectancy is far shorter. And a lot of the time it’s because their dire health needs go unrecognized by care providers. So they die of things that could easily have been averted, but nobody cared enough to pay enough attention. The level of poverty that is placed around this population based on the constrictions of their social support system means that she will never live a life that she’s accustomed to with us, because she’s not allowed to have wealth that supersedes a certain level in order for her to get social services. And all of that is dependent on government support. If they remove that support, and we’re gone, there’s no one to care for her. Obviously my son will be watching out for her, but there’s no way for her to independently, with support, improve her situation based on the construct of the world, unless she can have a job unless she can work.

If she can’t work, she can’t change how much that check that comes in every month. She can’t change the restrictions on how much she can remove from her RDSP savings program that we’ve set up for her. Those things are all static. What can change is can she earn a paycheck. And if she can earn a paycheck, then she has a whole team of people at work who are looking out for her, might notice her health issues. She has people, peers, who can support her if she’s having challenges with unwanted advances. And if I can’t keep myself from dying. I can certainly create a world that makes room for women like her, for young men like her, for families who can’t afford day programs for families that can’t afford independent living that only have so much savings to go around, who only have one child. There is no sibling. Then who is looking out for someone? If you don’t show up for work for three days, your colleagues figure out where you are. That’s one of the things about having a job. Every cat lady says, at least if I don’t show up for work, someone’s going to come by because they know someone has to feed my cat.

And that is also part of work. It’s a fabric within a community that gives you a place. And so it would not be nice to never die, but for, for none of us that’s happening. But for all of us worrying about these young people, knowing that they could have the ability to work and there’s a world that makes space for them, within that very important societal construct. Maybe we won’t wake up at two o’clock in the morning anymore.

It’s more. It’s the paycheck is nice, but it’s really about having a meaningful place in community where you feel like you belong and you matter. And you’re independent. And people want to get to know you better. And you have inside jokes. And you have somewhere to be at a certain time and you might get invited out to go for a coffee with the team afterwards, or go bowling or have a Christmas party. Like all of those things that are tied to work when you can’t easily make friends and connections outside of work. for the rest of us, I work from home, and I have communities of people that I have found and made. But for a lot of times with people with. Various social anxieties and disabilities and, and things that make them quirky, the construct of work breaks down those barriers so that you can form those relationships despite the quirks. When you are outside of that construct, making those relationships is really hard.

[00:31:47] Jennifer Chua: And so You’re giving your trainees skills, which is really, really key, but are there any other ways that you’re helping the trainees or people in your community find meaningful employment?

[00:31:58] Melanie Cote: Our program works where we do skills training, but then we do on the job training as well. So basically we talk about something in our training day and then we practice it in real time. Actually doing the work. So, our trainees have had growth in every area of our business. They do everything from mixing recipes independently for cookies, mixing the cookies, they are glazing, finishing and packing donuts as assistant bakers on the donut side of our business, they’re running our POS system, punching in the orders having tap, making change, they’re speaking to customers, thanking customers, taking the orders down.

They’re really an integral part of everything we do. And when we interviewed them and asked them what they felt they would be able to do, it was a very small part of what they’re doing now. They have exceeded our expectations, they’ve exceeded their own expectations. They’ve exceeded their parents’ expectations. So I think in addition to giving them that work, we’ve given them confidence. We’ve given them independence. They feel like they’re part of a team. They feel like they’re part of what has allowed Do Good Donuts to come to life, breathing life into something that’s helping them, but will help other people in the future. Having conversations with employment partners. I had an amazing conversation with Loblaws yesterday. One of the person from their diversity equity and inclusion team is going to be taking that further up the food chain to Loblaws to see how we can work together.

And I think the hardest part and the one part that’s really causing them to struggle is that the market ends. We don’t have a program for them anymore. And that was the plan. But our program works when we have a working food service business. So anytime that we’re quiet, we can’t be offering impact. The one downside is until we manage to raise the funds and get all our ducks in a row to have a full-time bricks and mortar cafe and donut shop on you know, main walkable street in the city. There will be times where we can’t help anyone. And so that’s, that’s kind of sad.

[00:34:02] Jennifer Chua: I’m wondering if once you started the program with actual people on site, if you learned anything from them that has shifted this program while it’s gone forward?

[00:34:12] Melanie Cote: Oh my gosh, I learn stuff every day. I think I have learned that the expectations we all have for the young people who might be in this program are too low. I realized I had very high expectations and they weren’t high enough. I realized just how beaten down the parents are and how low their expectations are -not for their kids, but for the potential of any program, to be able to finally make a difference. And I think there’s not much I can do about it, but I think as society, as a whole, we, as the village that raises a family should be more there for the parents raising their kids to this time. I have realized that on one hand society is really not ready to accept that it’s possible for these young people to work. And on the other hand, there’s an army of individuals, leagues of people who are so excited at the notion that this is possible that their passion will outweigh the naysayers in the end. And I thought that maybe I was alone and I learned that I am not alone, that many of us believe it’s possible.

[00:35:39] Jennifer Chua: I love that you get to connect with these bright, vibrant souls that are teaching you so much about running a social enterprise and making a difference. But how has this affected your journey as a parent with a child facing similar barriers?

[00:35:58] Melanie Cote: Well, I think the most important thing is it is a lot of work. And I do recognize that my family wishes, I was home more and that they’re still little and they, aren’t sitting where I am looking at the big picture. So finding ways in the next pilot and in the future to make sure that there’s protected time for that is very important as a mom and as an entrepreneur and all of those things. I think all of us face that conversation. And I think over the course of this summer, it was made even more abundantly clear that I need to build that into the plan. But I also think that learning what I have now spending so much time with these young adults, and I feel really bad for everybody who’s about to meet the new me as an advocate, that the school system needs to be doing more. The community clubs who have said they have don’t have space for her, with her disability need to be doing more. I think that the number of small annoyances that I felt before I now see as the building blocks of giant walls, that will keep her out of things in life. And I am no longer going to let them stand in her way or keep her out of doing the sorts of things that would make her ready for the next whole slew of challenges that she will face when she’s 18 to 21.

[00:37:25] Jennifer Chua: So you’ve become an advocate. And you’re making big strides and big impact in your journey, but have you encountered any notable, like really big challenges?

[00:37:37] Melanie Cote: I think the biggest challenge for me can be summed up in one interaction I had where I got some feedback on a grant that I had proposed. One of the comments was at the end of the day, no matter how much training you do, we don’t believe that these people could work in a fast paced environment like McDonald’s. And this was a very large organization. It was an organization that, that is built around supporting marginalized populations. And if organizations that big, who should be the most open-minded and one of the biggest advocating bodies that we have in this city feels that way. The biggest challenge I have is not about money. It’s not about doing, it’s not about anything. It’s about the perception that people simply don’t believe that there is a place in work for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And it’s not all of them, but it is enough of them that it’s pretty clear now why the disparity in employment exists and how many minds will need to be changed in order to make meaningful impact in this area.

[00:38:51] Jennifer Chua: Was there ever a point where you felt differently and felt like maybe you couldn’t make impact in this way and you’d have to shift to a different idea?

[00:39:03] Melanie Cote: You would think that those things would make me question what I was doing? And I think there’s probably about 30 seconds between hearing those things and when my mouth opens, that I have a neutral space that could go either way. But it just makes me so angry that it actually fuels me to show them they’re wrong more than it makes me think I should stop. And I’m really trying very hard to have an open mind about the path to the end. I recognize that I may not be able to do everything as it sits in my mind exactly the way I think it should be. The more peoples give me all the reasons it shouldn’t work. What I hear is them telling me again that maybe these young people aren’t worth the effort to make the change happen. And if they said it differently, if someone had given me an actual reason, like, this is going to cost you $17 million and you don’t have $17 million, then I would think, oh, geez, I guess I have to think about this differently. But all the reasons they keep giving me have to do with the idea that it’s either not the way we do things, that I expect too much of the young people, or there just really isn’t a place for them at work. And those reasons to me are our only reasons to work harder.

[00:40:41] Jennifer Chua: The people in your community and the people that come visit you at the farmer’s market on Sunday do you think that they understand fully what’s going on or do you think they just love your delicious vegan donuts? What do you think the consumers are thinking about when they interact with you and your business?

[00:40:57] Melanie Cote: think it’s both. I think there are customers who’ve just loved the donuts and don’t really care. And I think there are people who really love the mission who buy stuff anyway, even if they don’t need it. Particularly the parents, we have a lot of families who come and they bring their people who have a developmental disability or a learning disability or mental health things within their life that have caused them to see some barriers and they buy everything. So for them, it’s really about supporting the mission. And for other people, I’ve had customers who we’ve seen every single week and just recently are like, “oh my gosh, I didn’t realize you guys were doing this”. Like they didn’t even notice. And I think for anyone who’s thinking about creating a social enterprise, it’s really important to know that you have to have an excellent product because people will support your mission once. But if your product isn’t great, unless they’re hardcore committed to what you’re doing, they’re not going to come back. And there are only so many people who care about your mission. Everybody cares about their own thing. Like this is, I’m really passionate about this. And yeah, I care about the environment, but I’m not going out of my way to support an environmental cause because I’m busy already supporting the thing that’s at the top of my list. So if you have an amazing product, the person who super cares about the environment is still going to buy your product. Not because they care or don’t care about the mission, but because you’re giving them something that they really want. And the next door doughnut shop is an environment donut shop, but their donut isn’t as good… so they may go to that one half the time, but you’re still going to be on the list. And I think it’s important.

At the end of the day, people don’t buy crappy products, even if they’re doing amazing things, unless they do it once in 10 purchases or once in 20 purchases. If you have an amazing product, people will buy your amazing product eight out of 10 times. And if they love your mission, they’ll buy it 10 out of 10 times. And I think that that really was ingrained into me very early in this journey. And there were people who said that a donut shop that supports people with disabilities simply couldn’t make as much money as one that only had typical staff. And I think that’s more a testament to the idea that other social enterprises that are really focused on their mission and less focused on the product haven’t delivered to their customers well enough to be able to consistently keep a customer base that’s coming, regardless of the mission.

[00:43:27] Jennifer Chua: When we talk about purpose, sometimes we think that purpose has to be this huge thing that is creating so much impact. But for some people, something as small as having meaningful employment can be all of the purpose that changes everything for them in their outlook. And it’s amazing.

[00:43:48] Melanie Cote: It’s amazing. The difference in mental health, physical health, life expectancy, happiness, the status of mental health, the need for medication, the physical fitness, eating, nutrition, the ability to manage money. Like all of those things feel very singular, but they are all the one non-economic benefit of employment. And none of us think of it that way. We all think, oh, I hate my job, but I have to go. And we forget about all the things we get from it. And part of I have to go is I think that our written way of saying. There’s a whole bunch of this. It’s important to me, even though I have a crap boss, or even though it’s a really far commute, or even though I’m underpaid or undervalued, or I really hate the way that the person next to me eats their lunch at their desk. All of those things are very small annoyances within a very large construct that gives us a lot of meaning, like a lot of what we get from work.

[00:44:49] Jennifer Chua: Knowing what you know now about how society treats people with various disabilities and how businesses potentially treat people with barriers to employment. But then also with this delightful experience really you’ve had with the community and with your trainees, are you hopeful for the future?

[00:45:12] Melanie Cote: Absolutely. Particularly at this time when there’s so much discussion around diversity and there’s so much discussion around inclusion and there’s so much discussion around all the things none of us knew that we didn’t know about people who weren’t necessarily having the same life experience as us.

The disability community has been tangentially included in the big discussions that have been happening over the last year and a half in the states and obviously in Canada. And I think that as the need for this inclusion is brought to the forefront. People say, “oh, it’s just like that other thing that I didn’t know that I should be examining within myself.”

And I think the time is ripe for the kind of change where people make space for people who maybe aren’t the best candidate and noting that they aren’t the best candidate, because they didn’t have the same opportunity to become the best candidate, or they’re not the best candidate because in this case, maybe they don’t have the innate ability to just be able to do it now without work. But that doesn’t mean that their contribution isn’t worth the effort. I think the time is now I think that Do Good Donuts has come about at an exceptional time. And I have so many conversations with so many amazing people who say, I never thought of it that way. And I think the work you’re doing is enough for us to be able to find a way to make this work.

That without the go-between without the job before the job, without being able to see the experience that people have had and have the job recommendation and have people be sort of, pre-trained, it’s really hard because businesses need to make money. I get it. And nobody has six months to wait for somebody to become effective. But if we can spend the six months making them effective, then the employer just has to teach them the nuance of how the job is different at the new place. And the ability for the efficacy is so much greater. And the payoff to the employer comes so much sooner. They get to see all the bright spots sooner and spend much less time in the part that’s challenging and the part that they don’t have that much experience in. Let us do that part, let us find the experience to make that happen and let you reap the benefits of… communities rally around businesses that support the community. All of the research shows that if there are two businesses and one of them has a person with an intellectual developmental disability that the public sees, and one of them does not, the public will go more to the one that supports the community than the one that does it. They make more money.

I think it’s important to remind everyone as we have been reminded so many times this year, that we all have a lot of innate biases and we. all have a lot of preconceived notions around things or people or situations or how things come to pass. And I think a lot of people are surprised to find someone with a disability, asking them for their order at our tiny donut shop.

And I really urge people to take another look at themselves and wonder if there are ways or places in what they’re doing in the community at their workplace or within some of their social groups to ask why there isn’t anyone like this on their staff and how can they make a change? Because I really think that for me, and I recognize that I’m biased and also super into this, but really, my employees are my favorite people because they spend so much time building me up and, I made a whole business to try to build them up and I show up and it’s like, this is our favorite place. You’re the best boss. Like they really are such a delight to have on staff.

And yeah, it’s a lot of work and yeah, they’re quirky, and I think just cause the quirks are different than the quirks you’re dealing with now, it doesn’t mean that it’s in any way going to should stand in the way of, maybe making a little extra space. Just, just see if there’s a seat at the table.

In today’s episode, we chat with Sheena Russel from Made with Local, the popular CPG brand from the Maritimes. We explore how she’s created clean and simple snack food bars with social impact baked in, we learn how her childhood on a family farm in rural PEI influenced how Sheena sources ingredients, How she’s partnered with social enterprise bakeries, to have her bars handmade by those facing barriers to employment, and why she shifted her mindset to partner with big-box retail, in order to create even more meaningful impact within her community and support more local producers.

If you want to Learn more about Sheena and her nourishing, delicious treats with Social Impact, Baked-In visit https://www.madewithlocal.com/ Looking to try made with local yourself? Find the Real Food Bars and Granola Bar Mix in 1500 grocery stores across Canada. You can follow along with Sheena on her mission to employ & train Canadians experiencing barriers to the mainstream workforce and help build stronger communities on Facebook or Instagram.

Links from this episode

• The Flower Cart Group | Work With Purpose – New Minas
• Cosman and Whidden Honey – Pure Nova Scotia Honey 
• Terra Beata Cranberry Farm
• https://emkaofoods.com/
• About B Corps

Episode Transcript

Jennifer Chua: Hello everyone and welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 10.

In today’s episode, we chat with Sheena Russell from Made With Local.  We explore how she’s created clean and simple snack food bars with social impact baked in. We learn how her childhood on a family farm in rural PEI, influenced how Sheena sources ingredients. How she’s partnered with social enterprise bakeries to have her bars handmade by those facing barriers to employment.  And why she shifted her mindset to partner with big-box retail in order to create an even more meaningful impact within her community.

They’re a staple of packed lunches everywhere they’re found in almost every book bag.  But granola bars have gotten a bad rap in the last couple of years for being full of sugar and Palm oil, preservatives GMOs.  And containing a long list of unpronounceable ingredients. They’re terrible in terms of eco-friendliness, they’re maybe not as healthy as we once thought they were. And conscious consumers have been seeking out alternatives to the heavily processed snack bars. Because no one, myself included, can dispute the convenience and practicality of ready-to-go snacks.

I was delighted to stumble across Made With Local. Hailing from the Maritimes this humble snack brand bar is found in retailers nationwide.  Not only do they make nourishing bars with real ingredients, sourced from local farmers, but each bar has also social impact baked in. Made With Local’s truly innovative business model provides meaningful and exciting work for people who are experiencing barriers to mainstream employment. And their peanut butter Blondie bar it’s to die for. I had the chance to meet with Sheena Russell, the founder and CEO of Made With Local. She’s passionate about supporting small farmers, incredibly bright and speaking with her you’d think you’re catching up with an old friend.

Sheena’s based in the Halifax area, but she was born and raised in rural  Prince Edward island. And moved to Nova Scotia for university, which is where she stayed. And grew Made With Local, from a booth at the Halifax Seaport farmer’s market to being one of the east coast’s, most recognized brands.  Sheena’s upbringing is important to note. Her time spent on her family farm, surrounded by other farmers and producers. And growing up with her very large extended family, you can see how her childhood has influenced the values of the company.

Sheena Russell: I was born and raised in PEI and I was born and raised in a rural community, on a family farm. I’m surrounded by tons of cousins. My mom is one of 13 kids and pretty much all of them live within like a, a few kilometre radius of the farm. Really beautiful and kind of like old-fashioned childhood, honestly, like I think back to the way that we did things like that would have been literally like the nineties and it could have easily been like the fifties or sixties, like, so a really beautiful nourishing, rural childhood. I was raised by parents who were incredibly generous and inclusive and growing up in a big family that like just my immediate family, we’ve got  four kids in my immediate family. So a family of six and then plus a very large extended family, there’s a lot of sharing and a lot of collaboration that happens in that kind of space.

Jennifer Chua: Even back in elementary school, Sheena had what she called an activist sort of energy. She had founded a little environmental group called the green angels and recruited classmates to come with her and pick up litter. She was intensely interested in sustainability, even though she didn’t have the words to describe that at the time.

Sheena Russell:  And I used to like, yeah, be very, very intense to kid about sustainability. Didn’t know that was the word at the time, but like littering and picking up litter and, saving the whales and all the little things, all the things that like a young child perceives to be the biggest, environmental and social issues of, of their time. I was a very passionate kid in, in that space. Yeah, it’s kind of baked in to my, my perception of the world, I guess.

Jennifer Chua: In her late teens, Sheena embarked on what she felt was an absolute epic life, adventure, and moved to Halifax to attend Dalhousie university for environmental science.  It was a huge, huge deal because she was the first of her really large family to travel off island to do post-secondary education. This led to a very cushy, very predictable, but sought after government job, which gave Sheena this space to be bored and get excited about doing something that was more in line with her passion. Which was beautiful nourishing food. And which was sharing the stories of local farmers and food producers. She sat with her boredom and she let her imagination run wild.

But it never really crossed her mind to start a company or be an entrepreneur. Not until Sheena was already in the thick of it.  And when I asked her to share her origin story, Sheena says that she wishes that there was some sort of epic aha moment. But in reality, Sheena and her coworker, Cathy had come together over lunch breaks and gym dates and began to daydream of a project that was fun that gave them something meaningful to do on the weekends. Both food lovers, they had the opportunity and the interest of bringing yummy snacks to the farmer’s market. They began to make snacks that were for busy people on the go, who wanted something better than that very limited selection with those unpronounceable ingredients that you could find at the grocery store at that time.

Sheena’s no longer at the farmer’s market. She now runs her thriving business from an office space in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, which is outside of Halifax.  But that vibrant community of the Seaport area, the public art, the live music it’s never left her. COVID times have been good for business. We’ll chat about that in a bit, but she’s craving that public display of art and culture that’s celebration and live music.

Sheena Russell: Clearly there are much more pressing matters in the world, but I’m really looking forward to times, hopefully where we have lots more of that. I’m like anytime I even think going to a concert, I cry. I cannot wait to be back in the community and taking it all in.

Jennifer Chua: And now that the world is opening up again, Sheena feels hopeful.  She’s looking forward to taking in the sights and sounds of her community again. And be inspired by that real sense of the vibrant community. That was such a big part of the early days of the business.

Sheena Russell: We knew that we could make something delicious and nourishing. And we also realized that we could do it with essentially lots of local ingredients, which was Really becoming a trend that was picking up at that time. Farmer’s markets were becoming way more mainstream. And in Halifax here where we’re based, we were just seeing more and more folks really start to think about who is growing my food and I actually have the option to buy it closer to the source. So with all of those things combined, that really was  the Genesis for, what we thought was just going to be this like fun little side hustle to take on  some weekend stuff. And it clearly kind of took on a mind of its own and as much more than that these days, but it is humble beginnings farmer’s market for two years at a little five foot table. And then very slowly reaching out into little cafes and grocery stores  and that’s where it all started.

Jennifer Chua:  It sounds like you decided to make impact after you decided to make snacks. How did that connection happen?

Sheena Russell: The earliest days of the business  were taken lightly, honestly.  The focus was fun. Food, delicious food. Storytelling and community connection and it wasn’t until I became pregnant with my daughter, Ruthie. In 2014 that I realized, okay, we got to figure out  another business model here because me baking the bars on Monday nights and then packaging them on Tuesdays and then going to the farmer’s market on the weekends is not sustainable with a big giant belly or a newborn. So I got to the point in my pregnancy where I knew that something had to happen for me to be able to continue to pull this business off, but I didn’t actually have a plan.

It Was, I think totally serendipitously an act of fate or whatever you want to call it. One day. I got a phone call from a organization just outside of Halifax, in a place called New Minas,  a social enterprise bakery called the flower cart group. And they reached out and were like, Hey, a couple of different people in the local space have mentioned, we should reach out to you because we’re trying to get our little, commercial bakery up off the ground. And we thought that maybe you would like to partner with us, do you need help? And I was just remembering, sitting in my car and like ugly crying with my eight month pregnant belly and being like, oh my God. Yes. Please help me essentially.  So that was just this like beautiful, wild, serendipitous phone call that seemingly came out of nowhere at the absolute perfect time.

And it was only at that point, two plus years into the business that we really started establishing this innovative model, which we’re best known  for today, which is bringing these beautiful local ingredients from farmers who were like literally up the road from this social enterprise bakery. Bringing the ingredients in hand- making the bars in partnership with these social enterprise bakeries that employ and train folks who are experiencing some type of barrier to the mainstream workforce and creating these snacks, that actually, taste better than anything else out on the market. They’ve got a beautiful, simple ingredients list and have a quantifiable and tangible social impact on the community, around them, which is something, in my continued research, we’re not seeing that  in the energy bar space very much at all through north America.

So I knew that we were onto something really special. The impact piece really has been evolving and it continues to evolve in the business. We’re never just saying, okay, this is good enough, oh, we’re doing enough, good work. We can stop now. That’s really not our MO. It really has been this beautiful evolution as we continue to like partner with new, incredible farmers and food producers and create new social enterprise partnerships. So it’s just something that we’re just doubling down on, year over year in the business and Made With Local turned nine years old, a couple of weeks ago, which is absolutely crazy. So  that’s how that side of things is, has come to be and continues to really guide us.

Jennifer Chua: You have a unique experience in that you grew up surrounded by farmland and farmers and knew people that were creating ingredients, but I’m wondering why do you think it’s so  important.

Sheena Russell: For me feeling like I have a personal connection to the people who grew my food is an incredible thing. It just gives me goosebumps even thinking about it. Like even right now, it brings tears to my eyes. When I think about how, how beautiful it is that  the incredible amount of work that farmers put into bringing their products into the world, like farming is absolute insanity. And if you don’t know a farmer, you like, I’m sure any farmers that are listening to this are like, yep, we got a screw loose because it’s an. Incredibly difficult way of spending your life and your career so there’s just the heart and soul that farmers put into creating these beautiful foods. And then to be able to take it directly from this person who so intimately brought it into the world, in partnership with the earth and their family, and to be able to consume that and literally like, make that food part of my body, taking it into my body and like incorporating that into like the, the literal cells that make up who I am. I don’t know. It’s like really, it’s very intimate. Something that we say in Made With Local is that we like to think about love as an essential nutrient in your food.

It’s a bit of a paradigm shift on, oh,  love is like the ingredient it’s like, of course you add love to your food when you’re making it. But what if we also thought about love as like a literal nutrient to fuel us? Like you think about getting enough, like fat or protein or fiber in your diet?

Like what about if you thought about having love as a nutrient, as a macro in your diet? Right. So I think about that and I think about the high love content of food that comes directly from farmers and food producers  in that way. So that’s why local food matters so much to me, that’s the perspective that I have on local food and also the strength of community that is built when folks prioritize supporting local agriculture and local food systems is incredible, right? It’s a beautiful thing. And the, socioeconomic impact of that and everything, like, there’s just an incredible spinoff from making a choice, which is often like pretty simple of choosing something that’s locally produced over, maybe a slightly more convenient version that’s made. God knows where those are some of the reasons why I feel like supporting local is, is so important. And I think now more than ever again, especially in like a post COVID world feeling that that renewed sense of connection to community is something that I feel like we’re all really hungry for.

Jennifer Chua:  This was all serendipitous. This manufacturer reached out to you, which is an amazing story because usually it’s the opposite. You’re really hunting, you’re searching, et cetera, but you wouldn’t have partnered with them unless you really believed in this concept. Right. So I’m just wondering if you can recall any moments where you realize that giving back was important to you, because it’s clear that you can see with the way you’ve grown this business, that it is. Is there any moments where you realized that you wanted to create change in this way?

Sheena Russell: I will tell you, like I’m not your average entrepreneur or CEO in that I’m, I struggled to be solely financially driven. Like at the end of the day, I’m somebody who’s like very at peace with having just enough and, I’m like comfortable with just enough. And I don’t like get fired up by seeing, dollar signs flying in my eyes.  That’s just not who I am as a person. That again comes from like coming from pretty humble means and rural PEI. Like we, weren’t rich but I still had a beautiful childhood. So that kind of foundation was laid for me from an early age.

And I think the motivation for me to grow my business is so much more fired up by this concept of like innovation and impact than it is on the just sheer dollars and cents side of things, all that to say, you’re not going to grow a business if it’s not making money. So the, the really cool thing that has come from us building out this model over, a pretty gradual period of time from those very earliest days with the flower cart group to now having a much larger impact and footprint is that we’ve been able to figure it a way . Like we’re not a not-for-profit business. We are not a charity, but this is a profitable enterprise  but we’ve also figured out a way to do that and commit to social impact at every available opportunity, whether it be through our supply chain or production partners or whatever.

And that is really unique. And I can say though that I just wouldn’t have cared enough about building a business if it didn’t have this impact side of things, because being an entrepreneur is way too damn hard, and I’m not financially motivated enough to suffer through that if it was only just about the money. So when people say , oh, why did you choose to grow the business in this way? And it’s like, I kind of feel like, I don’t know how to do business any other way, honestly.

Jennifer Chua: Can you give some more insight into how you are different from other brands in your category?

Sheena Russell: Oh my goodness. So many ways.  The number one struggle for me in communicating about Made With Local is that there are too many good things or too many exciting things to talk about in the brand, which sounds ridiculous. But it’s honestly true. We have a really hard time narrowing down our key messages because I can’t pick a favorite child amongst all of the key messages in Made With Local, all of the things we stand for. They’re all equally important to me, On the very fundamental side of things from like the actual product it’s made with ultra simple ingredients, you can literally make our bars probably with the ingredients that you have at home in your own cupboard. Beautiful Canadian grown organic oats. Our bars are sweetened only with beautiful small batch Canadian honey fair trade and organic ingredients like chocolate and coconut that we mindfully source from ethical suppliers, blueberries and apples and just gorgeous ingredients that are really familiar to us here in Canada and are sourced in a way that really connect us as closely as possible to the farmer or producer. For that reason, like we’re not using any ingredients that you wouldn’t be able to find  in your own cupboard. And there are other brands out there that say that they’re made with a hundred percent real food, but then you look at the ingredients list and you’re like, what do I have that thing just hanging out in my pantry? In theory, you can stretch anything to say, yes, it’s real food derived, but like what I have, a jar of that sitting in my cupboard. No. So that’s one thing that’s yeah. Ruffles my feathers a little bit, but that’s, that’s the world of CPG. So yeah, beautiful clean ingredients that we can source right back to where they were made in produced.

And then, the production side of things and not just the, what they’re made of, but the how they’re made is something that is absolutely unique. Not only in Canada, amongst our competitors here, but also in North America and probably beyond based on what I’ve seen is that our bars are all handmade in partnership with social enterprise bakeries that help to train and employ folks who are living with some type of disability or barrier to the mainstream workforce. They’re actually producing these products right. And it creates  this beautiful ripple effect out into  their lives, their families, their communities. So with that, like those two things married, which is the, what it’s made of and the, how it’s made produces this product that has this like very quantifiable, very real social impact that, that goes out in all directions.  I value this and our thousands and thousands of Canadian customers value this, because  they want to nourish their bodies with foods that align with their personal values and their viewpoints in the world. And they have this sense that food, because of all of these things, the food is going to nourish you in a different kind of way than, some other kind of like mass produced bars that are made with kind of meh ingredients it’s a different experience I believe. And that’s what I want people to feel. Like I want people to have this feeling when they’re eating one of our Made With Local real food bars or that it is experience that connects them to their community.

One of my absolute favorite suppliers is a little apiary here in Nova Scotia called Cosman & Whidden Honey  They are literally down the road from the flower carts bakery, like a couple of kilometers down the road. They’re this amazing little family owned apiary. They’ve got, a few staff and hives that they spread out all across the Annapolis valley in Nova Scotia, which is almost kind of like the east coast. Oakenoggen honestly it’s very, very highly productive orchard territory. We make beautiful wines there. So the beehives are rented out to farmers and they are put into these fields to help pollinate, the different crops. And then the honey that comes from that is just, I don’t know. I honestly can barely even talk because when I’m away without getting teared up, because  I adore them so much.

And our relationship with them has. Really they’re the very first honey that we ever used to make. The very first Made With Local bars, and we’ve been making our real food bars here in Nova Scotia with their honey for nine years. Every single one, I don’t think we’ve ever even had to place an order for another brand of honey, even in a pinch, like it’s Tom from Cosman & Whidden and his partner Marianne have come through for us always. I really believe in honey, I’m going to go off in a bit of a honey tangent here. I believe in honey. Being such a beautiful and underappreciated ingredient and sweetener. Like it’s just something that is, there’s something magical about honey  in my eyes. And a lot of people don’t know this, but honey literally never goes bad. Like there have been records of archeologists, like finding liquid honey in ancient Egyptian tombs. And for us, the alternatives in the bar space, what you see competitors using for a sweetener, which you do need in a bar, this is just like basic like bar. Chemistry and physics. You need something sticky to hold it together. So what you often will see is like a brown rice syrup or glucose or whatever.  Something that’s super processed. And we don’t have a sight line on how those ingredients are produced. Right. And yes, for a brown rice syrup or glucose syrup, they’re technically vegan, which I know that there are vegans in the world who have issues with honey. And I, this is a hill I’ll die on that, but, but like, I, I, where are we getting agave? What’s the ethics behind the supply chain on agave syrup? Do you know who’s involved in the farming and harvesting of agave, are they treated properly? Are they paid well? What about brown rice syrup? How’s that being made? Where is it being made? Who’s making it.

I can drive down a couple of kilometers from the road, from our bakery visit Tom and Maryanne. I see the bees. I see the hives. I watched them harvest the honey in their little, barn out back and bottle it. And I take it to our bakery and I put it in our bars and sent it out to Loblaw’s and Sobey’s and all these other grocery stores. Local honey, ethically produced honey, in a small kind of artisanal kind of way is a hill I’ll die on. And that’s what you will get in every Made With Local bar. So honey is a really important part of what we do and who we support and what we make here at Made With Local.

And other awesome of our very earliest day ingredient suppliers would be another local one here to us in Nova Scotia, Terra Beata. They are for another family owned company based in Lunenburg county, in Nova Scotia, which is absolutely gorgeous it is just iconic. They farm cranberries and they dry them onsite. They also source blueberries and apples and cherries from around the Maritimes and dry them at their facility there. So we’ve been using Terra Beata as cranberries. Again, since very day one. Dave and Evelyn Ernst are the owners and the founders and owners of Terra Beata. And there was one day, years ago.  I was trying to figure out if there was an opportunity for them to start doing some co-packing for us, for a dried mix. Cause they having equipment where they can, put dry stuff in a hopper and it filters down a ways into a pouch, which is great. So we were trying to figure out from them if we could have them start making this product for us. So I’ve got like little, my daughter Ruthie in the little baby bucket seat, like on the floor, in their like, Production facility. And it was nothing for me to like drive down there with my baby and like bring her along.

And in the earliest days  Evelyn was somebody who, would answer call for me on anything like business and grocery related, because you can find nationally there are beautiful cranberry juices and dried fruit at Sobey’s and Loblaws, I believe. And so I would talk to her and be like, how do I get a UPC code? Like, how does this work with this big grocery store?  All of these things that have nothing to do with cranberries. But she would always  be like, call me, we’ll hop on a call and she would talk me through it. And now. They continued to be even bigger business than Made With Local, but we’ve caught up a little bit since those early days.

And these are just like, so much deeper relationships than just in some companies or some CPG brands where your supply chain is literally like cut the distributor a PO for the stuff you need. And it shows up on a pallet, a week later, like our relationships with our suppliers are really like family. And, and the coolest thing that I just feel really proud about in a growth of the company has been that, bucking the trend that a lot of people would expect, which would be growth of the company means, more streamlining of our suppliers, and not to say that we aren’t more efficient than we used to be. We absolutely are, but we’re constantly looking for new opportunities to work with new, interesting suppliers to be part of this family. We’re not trying to consolidate into one distributor and get everything on one purchase order.

That’s not at all what we’re doing much to the chagrin of our operations team. They’re like, oh my God, please. Again, one of the reasons, and one of the things that like literally gets me out of bed in the morning is the opportunity to partner with people who are making beautiful food and make their beautiful food, part of our beautiful food and to be able to share that story. It’s just, yeah, it, it just makes me, it makes me so happy and just fills my cup and is like the whole reason why we’re doing this.

Jennifer Chua: What does it mean to you to be a certified B Corp?

Sheena Russell:  I think we are the first certified bar company,   we are absolutely amongst the leaders in the B Corp movement here in, food products in Canada. Especially in the world of food, there are so many different certifications you can get, right.

There’s organic there’s gluten-free and those are important for certain folks. Absolutely. There’s, non-GMO, there’s all different kinds of ones. You name it, there’s a food certification for it. For me, the one that aligns most deeply with the values of Made With Local, and for me personally, is the B Corp certification, because  it’s about so much more than just, being organic or being certified, this, that, or the other thing from a nutrition perspective. It’s a holistic certification on the entire business, not just about one ingredient or not just about an allergen it’s every single part of the company is combed through with a fine tooth comb, I will say.  Through that process scored rigorously against  the most ethical and sustainable companies in the world. Especially two years ago when we first got certified, we’re quite a small brand by, for all intents and purposes, but I wanted for us to go through this process so that we could continue to prove our deep commitment to doing things a different way and to using our businesses as a force for good in the world, because that’s what being a B Corp is all about is thinking like, okay, we’ve built this business and I’m going to literally get in the driver’s seat and use it as a vehicle for positive change.

I hate to break it to everybody, but people aren’t going to care about keto in five years, it’s going to be proven that it’s not good for you. And I think that there’s lots of people already understand that, sorry to people who love keto, not to paint with a broad stroke. It works for some people, but not for the number of people who think they should be doing it. These types of things like they come and go, but sustainability and and committing to conduct your business in a way that is deeply aligned with the change we need to see in society as a whole is something that absolutely will not go away and it’s only going to continue to hopefully be something that we see more and more brands come on board with.

Jennifer Chua: You have a newer product, this one kilogram granola bar mix, which is exclusively at Costco, can you walk me through how that happened? How you got into Costco, what that partnership looks like?

Sheena Russell:  I will say something I am known for in the company is digging my heels in, on mass grocery because  I used to believe that it felt like it was kind of a sellout kind of thing. Like we’re this indie brand commitment to all things, grassroots and local. And like, what does that say about us if we’re out in the biggest grocery stores or corporations  in the country, right?

But what we come back to as a team, what I continually remind myself of is that when you build a business that is engineered to create social impact, like Made With Local, our growth means you’re growing your impact. So it’s not about me anymore, right? Like the, my ego needs to step aside, or my fear needs to step aside and say, the opportunities that are held for this company in the future with growth are not mine to stifle because I just like, and turning my nose up at a certain like mass whatever opportunity. So I fought Costco against the notion of Costco for a long time. And then then COVID hit and the world decided that they loved baking all of a sudden love baking. And we’ve been making this granola bar mix product in some way, shape or form for years. And it’s been like pushing a Boulder up the side of a mountain.

Like people just like weren’t getting it. Or like, I don’t know. It was just, it’s a brand new kind of product, right? It’s an innovative product. It’s like a cake mix for granola bars. We have cake mixes, we have muffin mixes. Everybody knows these things and has them in their cupboard, but people haven’t historically you’ve been buying a granola bar mix even though like, why not?

So it’s this really cool product that We had a lot of trouble getting off the ground for a long time, but we saw this opportunity with the worlds starting to spend more time at home and spend more time baking and getting back to meal prepping  and  just being at home more often, this opportunity for specifically this format, like a jumbo sized bag, being something that people might be excited about. So our director of sales here, Christine, she started talking to the Costco buyer over LinkedIn, honestly, a year before we launched. They are pretty collaborative with brands, right. They know what their members like. We know what we have to offer them in terms of  the different types of flavors and the organic certification and all of these things that we said that we could bring to the table. And we effectively co-created this unique product for them, which is our one kg version of the granola bar mix in a chocolate chip flavor, which is so yummy.

And from the earliest conversations that Christine was having with Costco until the day that we sent out that very first chunk of pallets to them, it was,  almost exactly a year, like maybe a little closer to 13 months, actually, it was a very long process, but it’s been wild. And the keep using ripple effect is I keep saying that, but it’s just like a theme that happens in the business, always is we’re seeing this ripple effect out from Costco, but all of a sudden now Loblaws and Sobey’s and the other stores that have been carrying our smaller bags, the 300 gram bags for like a year plus at this point, can’t keep it stocked. So it went into Costco and it’s kind of like a granola bar mix bomb went off and it’s done really, really well despite all odds, like we launched into Costco literally the same week that Ontario stopped their selling of any non-essential goods. So food counts is in essential good, of course, but Costco’s as like from a warehouse perspective, it was like, they were in complete disarray and had to change everything about how they were doing business at that same time. So we actually launched into Costco like that same week. Against all odds, it’s been an incredible opportunity for our business and  the impact of this, of this program with them has been incredible, right? We just on their very first order had to purchase 20,000 killograms of Canadian grown and produced ingredients.

And every single one of those 30 plus thousand bags on that first order that we packed for Costco, we’re hand packed at a social enterprise  in the GTA in Toronto. Again, it’s being able to tell those stories and to come back to that, that route of impact and connection for me is the one that is like, right, what else can we do with Cosco? Like, it might seem like it, it runs counter course to who we are and what stand for. But our mission is to bring these beautiful,  impact focused, nourishing, delicious foods to as many people as we possibly can. And there are different vehicles to do that. And Costco for sure is one of them.

Jennifer Chua: what are the costs associated of not supporting our local producers? Like why do you think it’s so important?

Sheena Russell:  I mean, I don’t have any like quick data points that I can throw at you in terms of like the opportunity cost of people. Just not consciously choosing to buy local when they have the opportunity to o. I guess for me, I go back to the, the sense of connection and love, honestly, that I experience as a human, when I know more about the food that I’m putting in my body and that I have an emotional or personal connection to the food that I’m putting in my body that like literally like nourishes and I’m gonna get weird again. Literally like nourishes my soul. It honestly does. And I think about the opportunity cost of that, like every time you have a meal and again, like we’re busy, I’m a mom, like I’m not sitting down making these like beautiful, heritage heirloom lettuce salads three times a day. I’m not at all. Don’t get me wrong. I’m still like, live in the busy mom life eaten Annie’s Mac and cheese a couple of times a week. So don’t get the wrong impression. But there is an opportunity. Every time we sit down to create a meal for ourselves to, to connect right, to connect to the community, to connect to the farmers.

I think the biggest loss on a personal and community level that we missed by not doing that is, by disengaging or by feeling like your decisions don’t matter because every single dollar that you spend, every single meal that you choose to feed yourself and your family if you’re privileged enough to really be able to make a choice about the food that you bring into your home, which is a privilege, let’s say that too,  every opportunity is a vote for the world that you will want to live in. You’re casting a vote for the world that you want to live in, right? So by spending your money on the bag of local carrots, instead of the ones that you don’t know where they come from, like, it’s a such a simple decision, but it’s literally like every time like that reaffirmation of like I’m casting a vote for the world that I want to live in.

And I guess this is me kind of coming full circle on not really knowing how to answer this question right off the bat. It’s a wasted vote. Right. You’re wasting your vote. If you are not thinking about, or trying to prioritize choosing a local product or having that connection to the food or any product, really, your body care stuff, the clothing, again, it’s very privileged position to be able to choose to support these things. And I want to just kind of double down on that message because it is but, but for those of us who do have the privilege of being able to choose, we need to use that privilege and that power wisely. To not understand that or not to take advantage of that for me, that’s the big loss that’s the votes are being lost in that, in that space.

Jennifer Chua: I came across a quote on your Instagram page, and I was just wondering if you could comment on it, or if you had any comments on it, where it came from or what it means to you. And so the quote was, it is critical to recognize that the highly processed industrial food we were buying is artificially cheap and that the planet taxpayers and people of the developing world are picking up the tab. Do you remember that one?

Sheena Russell: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that really, that does sum it up.  As especially Western consumers, nothing, nothing is as cheap as it is. Like you go to Walmart and something’s oh my God, what a great deal, what a smoking deal. That’s amazing. No, it’s not that it’s actually that it was that inexpensive for that product to come to you for $2.97. It’s that there are people along the supply chain bringing that product to the Walmart or whomever (I’m gonna pick on Walmart. Cause I feel like they’re one of the worst offenders in this space) who suffered and  they were not compensated appropriately in many different ways. And that cheapness on shelf is only because people down chain were denied access to human rights level stuff. That’s what that boils down to. Right.  These are externalities, like that’s what this is referred to in economics is the externalities of supply chain. We in Made With Local have thought really long and hard about the different types of ingredients and different types of innovation that we’ll bring into the company.

And you’ll notice when you look at our ingredients decks on our products, like we’re not using. I’m going to use air quotes here, kind of like exotic ingredients or super foods. Again, I’m going to air quotes, that super foods that are sourced from countries or communities or from companies rather that have a track record or are perceived in the world to not be treating their supply chain appropriately. We stay away from it because we vote with our dollars right. And Made With Local. And we want to make sure that our dollars are being only put towards products and services that align with our personal values and that don’t continue to exacerbate the inequalities that we see rampant, especially I’m speaking specifically through food food supply, global food supply chain. So, our coconut that we use is certified organic certified fair trade, our cocoa that we are using, our chocolate chips. Our newest supplier that we’re really excited about, we’re soon going to be working with this incredible cocoa and chocolate chip supplier from a Mission BC called EMKAO. It’s a female run independent chocolatier business, where she Ayissi, the founder, she sources beautiful raw cacao products from her family’s from in Cameroon and exports from her family’s farm in Cameroon to British Columbia and produces cocoa and chocolate chips and cacao butter and all of these kinds of value added products.

We will be getting like in our next order of cocoa and chocolate chips, we will be getting directly from Ayissi and a directly from her family from in Cameroon. So really cutting out as many middlemen as possible and going direct to the source and paying a fair price.

Like I hate to break it everybody because food is already as expensive as it is, but it’s not expensive enough. And there are certain people who are getting really rich at the top of the very, very, very, very top of the corporate food system. And there are literally millions and millions of people across the world who are not being compensated remotely appropriately for the work that they’re doing in keeping our global food supply chain rolling.

It’s funny because it’s also like maybe bad business practice in the world of like regular corporate business. But I am thrilled to be referring other brands, other companies to work with my suppliers and to partner with social enterprise because I’m like, if our mission is to be to be growing this sector or to be growing the footprint of businesses who are doing good in the world, then like, it is not our job to put up the walls and say nobody else can work with these suppliers that are suppliers. We want to make sure that  they will always have enough product to, to service us for sure. But like, I want them to succeed too. That’s the whole point right. Is shared prosperity.

Jennifer Chua: Do you have a moment that stands out in your mind where you realize that this business was going to be profitable and it was going to go forward?

Sheena Russell:  It still feels like, like there’s almost every day, we’re  I can’t believe we’re pulling this off. Like it’s almost kind of the opposite, it’s working and I mean, I feel like I have a habit of in these kinds of interviews, making it sound like we’re just like, everything’s tickety-boo and it’s just all happened to us and it’s been all magic. it’s super hard work, but we have an amazing team and an amazing community under us, which is also like the life force of Made With Local, which is our community of farmers and food producers and customers.  We have customers around us who’ve been literally buying our bars since 2012 with the Halifax Seaport farmer’s market and they still do to this day. It’s incredible. So I feel like maybe it’s them who convince us, who we’re like, yes. I’m obsessed with these. All my friends are obsessed with these. This is amazing. Never stop doing what you’re doing.  So I feel like that chorus comes from the outside.  Costco was a big deal. Like Costco was one of those, those kind of feather in your cap. Not that it was just a feather in our cap. It wasn’t just kind of like a vanity thing that we did at all. It was an enormous boost to our business and a huge opportunity. And we’re so grateful for it. But it was one of those things like, oh, wow, okay. We’re not at the farmer’s market anymore, baby.  It was a huge, huge leap. And one that we, again, we saw it be like a net positive, not only within the context of Costco, but also for the whole rest of the business. It really started putting us more on the map. And we’re in about 1500 grocery stores all across Canada now, Loblaws Sobey’s save on foods, Calgary, co-op tons of little independents, like we’re in the lion’s share of grocery stores. And that really helps you feel like, okay, we didn’t just get lucky and land a listing at like one grocery store it’s everywhere.

And that feels incredible. So those are, the achievements that we’ve had in the last couple of years, especially that that make sure to reassure us that we’re on the right path and that people, people want what we’re selling, people want, what we make and people value what we do. And that just, continues to push us to go ever deeper and deeper into our values and, and double down on what we’re doing.

Jennifer Chua:  I’m going to be honest with you that we’ve also had those struggles when it comes to big box or anything like this.  A dramatic mindset shift to say, no, the better I do here, the better of the impact I can have.  It’s a tremendous shift. It took me a lot longer, I think. And it sounds like it took you, but it’s true. Were there any mistakes that you think you made along the way or things that. Now that you’re here and you look backwards at your journey here. Is there anything that you would’ve changed?

Sheena Russell: I wouldn’t absolutely erase any experience that happened because like, I know it’s cliche as hell, but it’s, you learn absolutely invaluable stuff from major screw ups in a business. I probably would have shut a couple of things down a little sooner than I let them drag. There’s been times where, a certain partnership, for example, like we just wanted to make it work so badly and a partnership with with another bakery that we really wanted to get off the ground. And on paper, it just made so much sense. And I was like, this is how we’re going to scale this company. We’re scaling the second social enterprise and it’s going to be incredible. And there were just so many, not even hints, but like glaring things along the way that that. I should have taken as a sign that this wasn’t the right fit. It was just like our visions and capabilities were misaligned.

You might seem like we’re kind of a, an overnight success we’re absolutely not. Like we’ve been working hard at growing this company for almost a decade now, which is wild. So there’ve been things like that where I wouldn’t erace the experience entirely. I would have just probably, pulled the chute a little bit sooner.

Change is incredibly painful. And the pain, I think, in the last year or so has been felt disproportionately by our marginalized communities, black indigenous people of color, the two-spirit LGBTQ  community.  The uprising racially and otherwise that’s happened in this last year has been so overdue. And I am, despite how painful it’s been for these communities. So hopeful now that there is going to be real change right in our generation and also for the generations to come.  I think about my girls and like the type of world that I want them to grow up in. And I am really hopeful.

Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Sheena and her nourishing delicious treats with social impact baked in visit madewithlocal.com. Looking to try Made With Local yourself, find the real food bars and the granola bar mix in 1500 grocery stores across Canada. You can follow along with Sheena on her mission to employ and train Canadians, experiencing barriers to the mainstream workforce and help build stronger communities on Facebook or Instagram at made with local.

 

 

Melita Cyril from social impact business Q for Quinn makes certified organic cotton basics for children, ethically. We explore the environmental costs of manufacturing conventional cotton, and the potential health risks of the colourful dyes, and pesticides used. We learn how Melita’s trip to an orphanage on her thirteenth birthday and her newborns son’s eczema both inspired Melita to create change, how she’s carefully selected her manufacturing partners in developing countries, and why she feels that there are many more things we need to consider when determining the true cost of a product.

If you want to Learn more about Melita and her certified organic, mismatchable socks, visit https://www.qforquinn.com.  Looking to buy a pair? Through Mary’s Meals and the 1 pair = 1 meal initiative, Melita has donated 28,000 meals. You can follow along with Melita on her mission to create comfortable and practical basics which are gentle for your skin and for the planet on Facebook at qforquinnshop or Instagram at q.for.quinn.

 

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Episode Transcript

Jennifer Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 08.

In today’s episode, we chat with Melita Cyril from Q for Quinn. We explore the environmental costs of manufacturing, conventional cotton. And the potential health risks of the colorful dyes and pesticides used. We learn how Melita’s trip to an orphanage on her 13th, birthday and her newborn son’s eczema, both inspired Melita to create change, how she’s carefully selected her manufacturing partners in developing countries, and why she feels that there are many more things that we need to consider when determining the true cost of a product.

Certified organic is something that we hear about more and more often. And even in the last few years, since Q for Quinn was founded, it has become more of a thing. And although we all know that we might want to look into organic when buying things like strawberries, for example, does anyone look that carefully at socks?

Meltia designed her gentle socks to help with her son’s eczema. She uses GOTS certified cotton and OOEKO-TX 100 certified facilities. We’ll learn what all of that means in just a bit.

But unless produce was sustainable practices. Cotton is a huge challenge. And unless it’s certified, who is to know how sustainable the manufacturers really are. Most cotton is grown overseas in parts of the world that are vulnerable to exploitation and cotton farming and manufacturing can be associated with high environmental, social and economic impacts. Buying socks? There’s a lot more to consider than your size.

I fell in love with Q for Quinn socks, not because they’re organic for me, it was the thoughtful design. One pack of three socks is really nine mismatchable socks that share a color palette and a theme. So there’s no more crying over misplaced kid socks and no need to tossthe second in a pair. If one has been destroyed. They’re gender neutral, boast fun prints, and patterns, and are incredibly comfortable and high quality. And Q for Quinn’s social impact business model means that each purchase helps solve one of the world’s biggest problems.

Melita grew up in Sri Lanka. She moved to the UK for her undergrad and started her career there in investment banking. She was a trader with Lehman brothers and worked for credit Swiss, but she always had a feeling that banking, that this work, wasn’t meant for her longterm. And soon after meeting her Canadian husband, the pair spontaneously moved to Toronto. And after completing her MBA at the university of Toronto, Melita had a better idea of what the city had to offer. What the corporate culture here was like and what kind of opportunities she might have to look forward to. And she also knew that she wanted to escape the whole banking world. It had been stressful. She didn’t feel as if she helped. She didn’t feel as if she was in control of her hours and the work did not feel meaningful. Her life now felt like she had more freedom and the opportunity to do something, to contribute to society. She knew it was time for a change.

Melita Cyril: I knew in the long term, I wanted to build my own business, some sort, build something cause my dad was an entrepreneur and he started his business with nothing. So I’d always been influenced. By him. When I was a kid, he would drag me to all of these business meetings. Whenever we would go on vacation. It was always, there was always business with it. So I would say that part of that also influenced my decision to start something and I felt I actually wasn’t working when I had my son, because I had worked my body to the ground that I struggled with infertility and So I decided to take some time off, help, go back to Sri Lanka, help my dad with the business.

And eventually we sold the business. And then I came back and I was like, now what? But we got pregnant. And I was, I’m just going to take some time off and enjoy this. And that’s what I did. So when my son was born, I actually didn’t have a job to go back to which actually gave me even more motivation to start something. And I felt like the timing was right.

Jennifer Chua: Melita had her son and within the first couple of months, he began to have some issues with his skin. Doing some digging, Melita began to learn about conventional cotton and the potential toxins used in making baby clothes. Over 90% of baby socks have been found to contain known irritants, and she learned that these often contribute to skin issues like eczema. She was having difficulty finding soft, organic cotton basics for her new babe, especially socks. And this led to the spark that started her thinking about creating Q for Quinn.

Melita Cyril: That’s sparked the idea and I think just not having another option made it seem like I went all in on it because I didn’t have a job to go back to. And I’m glad I did.

Jennifer Chua: Melita began to build her business and looked back to her father for inspiration. His business had been wildly different. He was in the printing and packaging industries. He worked with printers and those manufacturing packaging.

And later he would work with large commercial brands like HP and related technologies. Very different industries. And very far from socks. Regardless. She learned some lessons from being dragged around to all those business meetings as a child, and she hopes to carry these forward as she continues to build Q for Quinn.

Melita Cyril:    I think the biggest lesson and I haven’t got a chance to fully apply it. Cause we have a really small team is just building a solid team and caring for the people. Cause to this day, my dad has sold his company, but. A lot of his, like employees  we’ll speak very highly of him, how he trained them and, and all of that. And I thought, oh, I want that. Like, if this company were to, grow into something meaningful, when we end up having a, a relatively, a decent sized team, I want to be in a position where I could inspire people, train people. To do better and to to improve the skillset. And that’s what my dad did. So I thought,that part of it was pretty rewarding. For sure And also, I think one thing I learned just from a business perspective is focusing on profitability and margins because that ultimately that’s going to what is going to sustain your business.

So not compromising too much on pricing and from a business perspective, making sure you’re profitable and being sustainable, which is getting harder and harder to do these days. It was a rising cost and of, of business. And the pricing of more sustainable goods and even having to justify it to consumers is a challenge especially when you’re competing with lower price products from parts of the world and from places where, you know, sustainability and even the input products used are harmful to the environment and, and to us.

Jennifer Chua: Was there an event that shaped how you see the world? Like, I’m wondering why sustainability means so much to you.

Melita Cyril: I think, especially after I became a mom and I wanna raise my kids in a world that also exists past,  my generation. So I felt like it became my responsibility to make sure that I do whatever I can. I do my part to ensure a sustainable future for my kids. And I think a lot of moms feel the same way. And I think we might just be within that demographic that makes more of those choices and it’s encouraging to see a lot of the other, like the other demographics, like millennials also choosing. Right. But I think, just being a parent and being responsible for another generation ahead of you. I feel like I’ve got to do my part to, to be more sustainable.

I also started to find that being more sustainable is not just purely for the planet. It’s also. It’s also a healthier option for you because it also means whatever is bad for the environment and whatever’s bad for our planet is also bad for our bodies. So the pesticides used in the production of cotton. That’s bad for the environment, but it’s also bad for us to inhale it or to the workers that make that in the cotton plantations and the processing of cotton to the fabric. Not just cotton, bamboo and whatever. It’s,  bad for their health too.   Going back to what motivates me and what we wish we had more often the world it’s kindness, to people, and also kindness to our planet.

Jennifer Chua: I actually have been exploring that concept a little bit more and more lately, which is how much sustainability and health are actually linked. And I think a lot of people don’t consider that so much because there are a lot of people that are very interested in their health and very motivated by that who might not be interested in sustainability or not understand that connection.

Melita Cyril: Exactly. And, you know, I I’ll raise my hand up and say it is hard to be, to make sustainable choices is usually more expensive. It is usually Less convenient. And, and so I get that culprit too. I’m not like always sustainable with my choices as a consumer, but when it comes to health, we try a bit harder.

And so that provides more of a compelling reason. And I think everybody is born inherently, somewhat selfish, to be honest, right. So we think of our own that’s human nature. We think about our own needs before we think of you don’t need to. For others and you know, it makes sense. We’ve got to be that on good health before we can take care of others.

And so immediately when I, when you make a decision for sustainability is usually secondary, I feel. But when it comes to your health, that’s going to be a primary factor. To motivate you to, to buy. And that was also premier factor factor. When I designed the socks, because I started to, when I did my research, I started to understand how many chemicals and toxins were in, in clothing.

I mean, I knew they were in food and I knew they were in skincare products, but it didn’t occur to me that much, that it wasn’t also in our clothing. And that was. I guess a primarily primary drive for me to create not only more sustainable products, but healthier products for our kids.

Jennifer Chua: Could you tell me a little bit more about the story of coming up with the idea and then moving this forward into an actual business.

Melita Cyril: My son did suffer from eczema, especially on his feet, sometimes in different parts of his body. I tried to go organic a lot with his clothing, but I had a tough time finding organic cotton socks. And socks that were breathable. I think the way too many socks are made are majority polyester. And then even the regular cotton socks. Now that I know what I know, I feel like, you know, because of all the chemicals, he was just sort of reacting to it. And so that, that was  the pain point that I had, but me being the business person or like my, with my business background,

I started researching like what are the options for organic cotton socks? What about the cost to make it, cost to ship? Can I build a sustainable business from it? Can I make this also fun ? I didn’t know. At the time, like there is a relatively high incidents of kids with eczema, but it’s not such a common problem that I, that I could go maybe mainstream with it. And so I looked at ideas to make it more fun. So I actually ended up writing a book about socks.  I, I really sort of was driven by the creative drive that comes with having an idea and creating something. So now I’m writing a book about socks and then launching the company. Obviously there was designing the product, finding the manufacturer.  Doing tons and tons of prototypes, testing samples on the then sort of limited sample size of friends and family that I had to figure out fit, to get feedback, and eventually come up with a product that could be manufactured and then launched.

So the whole process took about six months. And then when you launch,  the harder part is getting the word out. And and you know, initially it was friends and family, actually, when we first launched that was a complete stranger who had bought my product. So I was like, wow, somebody actually, you know, who didn’t didn’t know me, bought my product. So that was that was quite cool. After launching. Sort of trying to figure out, where I should market our products how to reach that consumer who’s starting to pay attention or who has the same problems that I had, and is also starting to pay attention to what’s in their socks and clothing and and also building a more sustainable future for their kids.

Jennifer Chua: How are you different from other companies that sell children’s basics?

Melita Cyril: Our products are all now GOTS certified organic. So we make them from organic cotton. We also have a merino wool collection. We focus on materials that are sustainable, and the production process from farm to consumer is free from common harsh chemicals. So what the GOTS certification means is is that our products are tested and audited from the source to make sure they are free or they follow the highest environmental standards and are also free from chemicals and toxins that are commonly found. That have quite honestly become mainstream. I would also highlight the fact that GOTS is not just an environmental set of standards is also a social set of standards. The companies that we work with, or the manufacturers that we work with, they’re also GOTS certified. And in order to be GOTS certified, they have to show that they paid their workers living wages, not just minimum wages and offer them very safe working conditions and there is no coercion or anything like that going on there. The standards are upheld to the highest level of social standards in a lot of these countries. And so just sourcing from GOTS certified facilities being GOTS certified brands we are held to those same standards. We source from Portugal, Sri Lanka and India. There are family owned facilities. We’ve visited them.  We have a good relationship with them. We have transparency and we know we have the security so that we can offer this consumers the same security of where their clothes came from and the fact that they’ve been tested to make sure that there’s no contamination with non-organic products or any harmful chemicals. And I would say that’s our main differentiator.

Jennifer Chua: I’m so thrilled to hear that you visited with the factories and that you truly understand them. Cause a lot of people are manufacturing things and sending them over on the internet to anywhere else in the world, and they don’t have any real idea of what the standards are like at the factory or how the people are being treated. I appreciate that.

Melita Cyril: Yeah. And part of this was me also, growing up in Sri Lanka and just like,  I would go to my dad’s customers who had factories. And so, I mean, I guess for me,  it was also a little bit easier for me because my dad lives in Sri Lanka. So. My dad represented me to go because obviously in the last year and a half, we haven’t been able to travel because of COVID. And through the three years of the business, I had two more kids. So that made it a bit harder. But my dad, he has been the facilities that, of course, in the facility, in Sri Lanka, he visits them often because he’s there. So that makes it logistically easier for us to do, but it’s so important to know. To really does not even rely on and certification as such, but to see it for yourself.

I look for OEKOTX100  as well as a minimum.   That is similar to GOTS but it’s not just for organic products that is specifically for harmful chemicals. So whenever somebody asks me, especially if there’s an item we don’t carry and they say, how do I make sure that a a product is safefor my baby or for my kid, or even for myself. I say, if they don’t have GOTS at least look for this certification, because it can be for conventional cotton GOTS who only certified organic cotton as an example. But would not certify convention cotton. So if, if the product is conventional cotton, at least make sure they have that certification because at least the facilities and the, the textiles have been tested for over a hundred harmful substances. So as a consumer, those are the two like certifications that I look for the GOTS and if it’s not organic or,  GOTS does not certify all types of fabric and all of our facilities are also OEKOTX100 certified as well.

Jennifer Chua: Why is conventional cotton so problematic?

Melita Cyril: So the pesticides used to grow the cotton. And that’s why. It’s precisely other pesticides used, and that has harmful chemicals to the workers in the plantations, as well as our environment. Now they both consume, I think the same amount of water. In fact, maybe organic cotton consumes more water so it becomes a little bit of a balance between the pesticides use versus the water use. That is precisely why conventional cotton is, is worse for the environment and, and then worse for, for us as well.

Jennifer Chua: Your socks, for example, have some really interesting features. The fact that you can mix and match them. If you lose a sock, you’re not throwing out the other one. You can just use that with another pair and then the comfort of course, but what was the most important to you? Was it this mix-match ability, the social good or the sustainable materials? Which one did you focus on first?

Melita Cyril: The sustainable materials that would say, because that was like the driver and the, the gentleness of the materials, because that was obviously the driver to make sure that it was something , my son can wear all day, every day, not have a reaction and not worry about the chemicals in there. So that was like the primary focus. But. I wouldn’t say I’m a true perfectionist, but I really wanted to get something that’s, not just for kids with sensitive skin, something that is functional practical. It really comes down to performance of everything, like, just because you buy something for your sensitive skin doesn’t mean that you have to compromise on the grips for example, or the fun aspect off the socks.

So of course, like starting off and even now we’re still limited in terms of how many designs and how many fun designs we can launch. So we have our customers always say, or do you have something with rainbows or unicorns? And I was like, I would love to keep doing it, but  it is, it is hard for me with the minimums to always launch new styles without three pairs, nine possibilities concept like you highlighted.

So that was like the challenge of the beginning.  Of course, every little one has different needs. So we have  a pure collection, which has actually no dyes whatsoever. There’s no patterns because it has no dyes. It comes in the natural colors of cotton, but it’s more suitable for sensitive skin. We have more fun mix and match patterns, which,  to be honest, has the same composition of the original composition. So it’s good for sensitive skin, but some kids just don’t like,  lose thread, which is a common function of having more patterns, for example. There’s no one size fits all on one pattern or type design fits all, but we’re trying to cater to different needs. For us right now, it’s creating a healthy product that’s also functional and meets the needs of, the majority of our consumers.

Jennifer Chua: Can you speak a little bit more to the pairs of socks that you receive and how you can mix them together?

Melita Cyril: So you actually get three pairs and we say nine possibilities, cause you could mix and match because they follow the same theme. So for example, if you go on our website, you’ll see like a hot air balloon theme or inside a robot, which has got the different robot components.

So it follows the same themes, but, and the colors, but they’re different pairs. It’s a unique pair in itself, so you can match it. Or if you feel like it, you can mismatch it. Or given the sock problems we have in our own home of like socks, just kind of. Disappearing or just like you losing a pair of one day and finding it the next day you can wear it, mix matched for functionality and this way,if you would inclined to throw your socks or not use it. You can still use it. And so that prevents that ending up in the landfill or just lying in your drawer unworn. So it is a little bit more sustainable as well.

Jennifer Chua: When you were looking at manufacturing overseas in several different countries or sourcing from several different countries, what kind of costs did you learn about like associated with the environmental impact of manufacturing and sourcing from overseas?

Melita Cyril: Going back to  looking to manufacture the socks, first of all, I would say I look for a local manufacturer and unfortunately almost all the Canadian sock manufacturers have either shut down and moved overseas especially in kids and baby cause it’s requires special tooling. And it was impossible to find somebody locally. I wanted to find somebody locally just so that I could manage the quality control of the first product and design. So very quickly I had to look set my eyes on overseas manufacturing. I’d never manufactured a product before, but I assumed, okay Google is my best friend here. Let’s see what I can find out about sock manufacturing. I looked at different countries, including China. And then I also found a manufacturer in Sri Lanka. So I probably got samples and quotes from about three manufacturers.

Sri Lanka was sort of in the middle, I would say. But they also had the best quality. When it comes to the types of manufacturers, I look for. I had done my research on chemicals. And what certifications did they have that wouldmake me feel secure, that  this product is going to be free from harmful chemicals, not only for my kids, but also for the environment. And so I looked for certifications like the OEKOTX100 certification and the GOTS certification. I wasn’t certified as a brand at the time that came last, last year. But at least I could source from GOTS certified facilities. And so it Sri Lanka was part of that.

I wanted to highlight something as part of your question because of course your podcast, I think has a brilliant name cost of goods sold. And this is exactly  the challenge I find, being a business owner, Trying to create the best possible product. But it ends up being at a much higher cost than, an alternative. I wouldn’t even say competition because it’s not the same product. It’s more of an alternative, right. I have an undergraduate degree in economics and I won’t get into. Too much of the jargon. But I, I will try to explain this. You might understand the concept of  this demand and supply curve intersecting in order to get to the free market price of, of something it’s called lean equilibrium. What happens if the demand curve or the supply curve is not accurate? It does not truly take into account. As far as the supply curve is concerned, the true cost of something. For the demand curve. You’ve got to look at it from a benefit perspective. So if the demand curve does not take into account, the true benefit of something. Or the supply curve does not take into account the true cost of something. You get the wrong price by society.

There is something called Externalities, which occurs when the full true cost or benefit of a market is not reflected in the market economics of it. So what that leads to is a wrong price. From a negative externalities perspective is the wrong price and overproduction.

And this is exactly the problem with fast fashion. It’s the same problem that we have with pollution. It’s the same concept. So with the supply curve for fashion in generalizing the market a little bit, I should just say for socks, if the cost doesn’t incorporate the social cost of the workers who have to produce were exposed to these pesticides and chemicals. If it doesn’t take into account the environmental costs off these pesticides and chemicals, then you’re going to get a lower price for the wrong price. And if you’re looking to source that that takes into account all of this, the sourcing price is going to be higher. And, and so that, that is exactly why if we pay attention to all this, we have to source at a higher cost and the price ends up being higher for a consumer. By buying a product, you are making sure you are paying the true cost of the product and not a lower cost where somebody else or even your own children end up paying the price for it.

It’s a hard concept to get your head around, but it’s simple because, and that’s exactly why. It’s almost impossible for us to compete while still uphold ourselves to the same standards as other companies. And we have to do a little bit more on educating why our products are better for you and the environment. And you’re actually paying the true costs and not, it’s not ending up in my bottom line.

Jennifer Chua: one of  the messagings that seems to be clicking more with conscious consumers is the cost per use.  Whereas, if you get a pair of socks and one of them gets a hole in it or gets destroyed because we have children absolutely destroyed or lost in the wash. You have that opportunity to mix and match, but one of them isn’t larger than the other. They’re going to be the same size. One of them isn’t higher than the other. Like they’re going to be the same level of comfort on both feet.

Melita Cyril: exactly.

Jennifer Chua: Sometimes if you look at the cost per use or investigate how long you’ll be using something or how many times we’ll be using something.  In that case, it seems to make more sense.

Melita Cyril: No, absolutely I pay attention to all our views coming in, all the feedback, all the emails from our customers, good and, sometimes feedback for improvement as well. And one thing I am noticing now is a lot of people are saying they’re passing on their socks to siblings. I would do this with my kids. Like my daughter. Is only wearing my my son socks, which is the reason why we also make them gender neutral, so they could be passed on to siblings with boy or girl.

I’m glad you brought this up because it’s also a better quality product and a product that’s going to be used many times, which will end up saving you money and also costing the environment less because. The fashion industry is so dirty and over consumption is a big problem. And it’s a big cause for pollution. And, and so by being able to reuse the socks, because its in  the same good quality as  a brand new pair.   We pay very close attention to a quality, so there’s less fading and it still fits the same. And the holes are not developing and of course you have some bad apples, very, very small percentage, but overall, your product quality is good and you pass it on to siblings or cousins or donate it. Somebody somewhere can use them as opposed to it being in the landfill. That’s a good reason to buy, and I think we need to do a better job as a brand to really kind of communicate that cost per use. It’s something that you can pass on to younger children and or donate. So it doesn’t end up in the landfill.

Jennifer Chua: And they’re not like, the multipack that you’re buying from a big box store that I’ve always found either the elastic, wears out at the top very, very quickly, or the holes come very, very quickly. And those do end up tossed. Like you do have that quality in your product for sure. And I commend you for that, obviously. So when you were building the business, what was your big dream in those days?

Melita Cyril: I was very passionate about the product, so it was just seeing my product in the hands of as many little kids as possible. That is like the goal, but I would also say one part, which I haven’t really mentioned as part of this conversation up until now is our give back initiative. We actually give back through an incredible organization called Mary’s meals. So for every pair of socks that we sell, and now we have underwear, pajamas, but for every product that’s sold, we donate school meals to one of the world’s poorest children. For me, that’s really the dream and what’s driving my business. Sure. I can go out and donate myself and encourage others to donate, but I feel like I’m achieving like Goals that are beyond myself. So, I’m helping,  little kids who have scent sensitive skin or refuse their socks because of the seam across the toe. So I’m helping moms and their kids, but I’m also helping feed children in a place of education. They’re also going to school more because of the little things that we do. Now we’re making a small impact, but for me personally, that’s what drives me because as you know, Jennifer the small business world is hard. You need something to motivate you. And this is our motivation creating products that solve problems for our consumers, but also helping these children.

I grew up in Sri Lanka.  I was a bit more exposed to poverty than my kids will probably ever be. And there’s some kids there who don’t even have a meal a day. It’s very sad, but I always wondered, like I always felt grateful to be born to the parents that I was born to. And,  I am grateful to be in this position. And I feel like I got lucky and, and I could well have been born to a family without means, and I could have been one of those children or my children could be one of those children. So I feel incredibly grateful to be in this position and to have obtained a world-class education and be given the opportunities I was given. And I feel like these kids just need opportunity. They need to be able to go to school. They need to eat. And that’s what Mary’s meals is solving. I was very glad to have come across Mary’s meals because something very high cents to the dollar goes to direct charitable activities.  As, as of right now, we’re not position where we’re funding projects, so we know exactly where the money went, but I have the confidence that it’s reaching these kids. So incredible, incredible organization. I’m so grateful to be able to give back.

Jennifer Chua: Your childhood in Sri Lanka, is there a moment in your life where you realize that you want to create change?

Melita Cyril: I think it was my 13th birthday andI went to an orphanage and I’d been visiting them quite a bit. And I decided that time to celebrate my birthday there. So I took cake to them. And I saw the, the pure joy in some of these kids’ faces and it just made me so, so happy that in the back of my mind, like I still remember that moment. So. Even when I started Q for Quinn, I knew I wanted to give back or do my part in some way. Cause I knew that’s what’s going to drive me in the end and I just couldn’t figure out what that would be because one of the things I also struggle with is just having that transparency of where the dollar is going and the best way to have the most impact.

That feeling in that moment and that gratification  from the joy that, just giving cake to these kids and they still had access to food. And I could just can’t imagine those kids who don’t even have access to the food. So, I think that changed me in that sort of made me realize that  I need to do something that’s what’s going to drive me when, when things get really hard. And it’s challenging being a business owner. It’s a lot of sacrifices, but just knowing that. Well, for every product that I sell, I’m actually making it back in a way that I’m feeding these kids. It just makes it so much more meaningful and drives me even more.

Jennifer Chua: So once you started Q for Quinn, can you remember a moment that you were just really proud and why were you proud by that moment?

Melita Cyril: I would say there’s been moments where I’ve been really proud.  The proud moments have been like reading my books to kids and seeing the kids read them on their own. That makes sense, really happy. Just kind of, kind of seeing that. But as I said before, like just counting the meals every month that we’re able to donate. That makes me happy and it keeps growing. So that makes me proud and happy.

Jennifer Chua: can you tell me about a moment when you looked around at Q for Quinn, what you have built and you said, Hey, this is going to work. Or people are interested in this concept.

Melita Cyril: I would say maybe sometime last year in the fall , when things started really picking up I would say yes, that is, but I would also say that I’m still, some days are a struggle.It’s not always like,  we were still growing and figuring out where to put ourselves forward to like from a marketing perspective. So I still have failures a lot. And so sometimes those failures make me question, am I doing something that people want, right. And if that’s the case, why aren’t they all lining up to buy? But, and that’s what, giving back through the school meals really helps me because I’m saying, you know what. Whatever happens. I can feel proud that I I’ve been able to donate these school meals through that, and then buildings an organization or a company that it’s is built on those values. And at some point people are going to start to recognize it on a larger scale I hope. It’s not just that I want them to recognize it, I think as long as see that positive change, that we’ve started to see more recently with a more conscious consumer, I would love that to keep continuing, because I think we all, as a society have a lot to do to make better choices in what we consume and how we consume.

I still don’t feel so confident from a business perspective. It Is hard, I would say. And it’s hard to like, like I mentioned before sometimes I feel like I have to really justify the price of our products and it’s not even a huge purchase in the grand scheme of things, in the sense that, our socks costs three pair pack cost $27. You could share the sizes as with siblings you could use for well over a year. And I feel like it’s sometimes still a struggle because. I get still sometimes get these complaint complaints of like, why is it so expensive or, and shipping is another reason for years is like, I won’t pay close to $10 for shipping. And I get that,  I’m hesitant as a consumer to pay, but as a small business, we don’t have a lot of negotiating power. Until we get to scale, we just won’t be able to reduce our shipping costs and every year it just keeps going up.  I always say, there’s no easier time to start a business. But it’s becoming very, very difficult to sustain a business these days.

Jennifer Chua: Is there anything else as consumers or business owners that we should take into consideration when we talk about those costs, is there anything else we should be thinking about that we’re not thinking about?

Melita Cyril: I wouldn’t say that there’s anything else that you’re not thinking about in terms of raising awareness of why, buying a most sustainable product is better or why it’s priced the way it is. Of course, like when I explained the whole externalities issues, like, I don’t think people understand it the same way. But they are starting to understand like the cost to humanity or the people making the clothes, just knowing where the clothes are coming from and who’s made them whether this amount of water or this amount of pollution was caused by the result of turning the plants into fabric and all of that.

I think it’s continuing to educate and whenever we see comments, public comments just, yeah being as transparent as possible and also taking the time to educate and write.

We do a fair bit of Facebook advertising and so we get these comments and I always go in there and I explain to somebody and I see other brands doing that as well. So I think the more brands continue to do that, and people see that consistent message. They. They start to understand, and we’re already seeing that shift, which is encouraging.

I think this is where like government and governments and standards play a role. We talked about b Corp before the Before the interview and, and having more standards like that and also having access to be certified. Hopefully those standards are able to advertise and put themselves in front of the end consumer so that those consumers can look for these standards in these brands, and that’s how they can differentiate between A brand that’s trying to do good by our society and by our environment and those that are not. This is not just the role of brands, but also the standards of the brand. So I think all parties that play have to play a role.  It is a challenge and I think everybody has the role to play the consumer, the brand, and also the standards and even our government, to be honest, too.

For example, with Azo dyes, which have been known to have carcinogenic materials they’re banned in the EU, but they’re still allowed in the USA and Canada. And so. So I think our government also has a role to play in all this

I just wanted to say that I’m encouraged, like part of what you’re doing, Jennifer, is educating the customer with this podcast or consumer with this podcast. So I’m grateful for people like yourself, who are playing the role to bring in more awareness to what’s in our clothing, what’s in our products. And not only what’s in them, but how it’s made, how the workers who are making it are treated. And so that we can start living with our decisions now that we know we can start making the right decisions and also being happy with the decisions we make and feel good about it. And not only for ourselves, but for our children.

Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Melita and her certified organic mismatch, double socks, visit Q four quinn.com. Looking to buy a pair through Mary’s meals and the one pair, one meal initiative. Melita has donated 28,000 meals. You can follow along with Melita on her mission to create comfortable and practical basics which are gentle for your skin and for the planet. On facebook at qforquinnshop or instagram at q.for.Quinn.