Kate Pepler from the Tare Shop was feeling overwhelmed with the doom and gloom narrative of our earth’s health and decided to do something about it. In this episode, we learn how Kate’s lifelong relationship with the water and a move to a coastal town influenced how she sees the world. We discover how Kate’s passions including sailing and environmental education and community building led her to entrepreneurship, we chat about why Kate decided to open a package-free store and cafe,  how shopping habits are shifting, why reducing plastic pollution is so important to her, how we can influence the world around us by choosing to support and shop mindfully, and how the interest in reducing waste, and a strong community focus had led to the Tare Shops success.

If you want to learn more about Kate, package free living and shop her carefully curated collection of low waste goods, visit thetareshop.com. Looking to learn more about zero-waste? And the steps you can take to reduce plastic in your life? There are a lot of tips and resources in Kate’s blog. If you want to follow along with Kate on her mission to make package-free living accessible on Instagram at @thetareshop

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:29] Jennifer: It’s summer in Bedford, Nova Scotia, and Kate Peppler is teaching sailing as she has been for the last few summers. Having grown up with a love for water and the outdoors. Kate felt like she was in her element and it looked like her future would include spending summers on Canada’s east coast teaching and then sailing south for the winters. But after graduating from university with a degree in sustainability, environmental science and Marine biology. Kate was feeling depressed and overwhelmed by the state of the world.

[00:04:03] Kate: It felt like I spent five years studying all the ways that we just destroying the planet without much like positive focus or here’s what has been done. Here’s what is happening. So after graduating, I started a website called our positive planet, which was really just for like my mental health. The whole purpose behind it was to share environmental success stories to inspire action. When I just get bombarded with the doom and gloom, I kind of just want to bury my head in the sand and ignore it all, or turn on Netflix and not take anything else new in But when I read about other folks doing inspiring things, that’s what really inspires me. So by sharing positive environmental success stories, I was trying to help like drag myself out of that doom and gloom slump. So I, through that, I started reading about these zero waste stores popping up all over and kind of got inspired to try to reduce my own waste.

[00:04:53] Jennifer: And with that, Kate began to look at ways to reduce her own waste, beginning to feel excited about the opportunity to create change. In Halifax where she lived, she was struggling to do so. There was no retail outlet that made plastic free living easy or accessible. And in the off season from sailing, Kate would run around to a variety of shops for a variety of things, without packaging realizing that this isn’t realistic for most people with full-time jobs or families to care for. And through setting some personal challenges for herself when it came to tracking and reducing waste. And blogging about her environmental wins and challenges, Kate began to realize that there was a gap to be filled in her community. And she set out to create a one-stop shop for bulk, grocery and personal care, all package free. And in the years, since The Tare Shop has opened. They’ve expanded, created a strong community following and Kate has continued teaching. Something she loves to do. Although now she teaches individuals, schools, and companies, how to make more sustainable choices.

[00:06:00] Kate: I grew up on Toronto island, which is a small community. There’s about 250 people who live there. It’s a largely car-free community, just a 10 minute ferry ride from downtown Toronto. So I grew up spending a lot of time in nature. The school goes up to grade six on the island, and then you have to go into the city. Until my last year, I think there was no playground or play structures. It was like a field and trees and we played outside. We built forts. We toboggan down a hill.

I grew up sailing, doing canoe trips and loved swimming. I live like a couple of minutes from the beach on the island. And I remember as a kid, seeing a ton of garbage on the beaches always and not really piecing together why that might be or where it comes from. I remember there’s always like the plastic tampon applicators. Oh, there’s like a lot of women on boats with periods. Cause this is like on the water that came from the water. Not understanding that big disconnect that garbage in the water largely comes from land, not from boats. So I think I, yeah, I’ve always been loved being outside and being in nature. And I think we can’t even say any more that we need to protect the environment for future generations. We need to protect it for our generation. Like we are directly seeing impacts of climate change and pasta pollution today. Like this isn’t a future problem. It’s a definitely a future problem, but it’s also a very much a right now problem.

[00:07:28] Jennifer: Do you think that growing up on an island, even though, like you said, you’re only 10 minutes away from downtown Toronto. but you think that really I’m trying to think of what the difference would be between someone who has the opportunity to grow up climbing trees and going out and swimming within a two minute walk from someone that lives in like an urban center. I’m wondering if you think that was an influence on your life.

[00:07:49] Kate: I definitely think so, but also like everybody’s different. I might have friends who grew up on the island who don’t feel that same deep connection that I do or like alternatively, there could be kids who grew up in very like urban environments who do also feel the deep connection. So I think it was partly, we like live growing up on Toronto island, but also like my parents. We went on camping trips as a kid and Northern Ontario. I feel like I’ve always been exposed to nature in a very special way.

[00:08:18] Jennifer: Was there a moment in your life where you ever said that you wanted to create change, come wondering how you got to here. Like really you’re an advocate for change. I was wondering if you know, when that fire started inside of you.

[00:08:33] Kate: I’ve never thought of it that I can’t think of like a, a pivotal moment. In my life where I was like, I need to, to be a change maker if or create change. Growing up again on the island. Like it’s a very, it was very close community. So we knew all of our neighbors. So I feel like I’ve always had a deep sense of community that I’ve loved. I was running the sailing school for six years. So through that, like built a big community around the sailing school. Like I grew the participation from like, A very small number to like a very, very large number and the time that I was there. So again, like coming back to that like community and like fostering that community minded spirit I think is really important to me. And I think via The Tare Shop have again, created another community of people who want to shop differently and want to shop smart.

[00:09:26] Jennifer: So, how did you come up with the actual idea for the business and then how did you move it forward and actually create a business from your idea?

[00:09:32] Kate: The idea for The Tare Shop came about just by reading about other package, free stores, popping up all over, knowing that I wanted one in Halifax. And in university, I remember like being in like an environmental course or sustainability course and just seeing. Tim Horton’s cups and almost every single students that like disposable cups and like, people will just do what is easy for them. So it’s just easiest for them to grab a to-go cup. They’re just always going to grab that to go. So thinking it would be cool to have a zero waste cafe that just doesn’t have disposable coffee cups. And I had kind of forgotten about that for a couple of years until the idea? for The Tare Shop started in my brain and thought that would be a really cool way to tie a coffee shop into a grocery store so that it’s not just a place where people go. It can then again, become a, like a community space, host events Makes it a little bit more of an experience than, than just going grocery shopping.

And then I was home one January visiting my family, and we were all lying on my bed, hanging out, discussing The Tare Shop. It was like very, very early, early days and dreaming up what the name could be. And I forgot who said it, but maybe my mom or my sister said Tare, Tare Shop, The Tare Shop?

Tare is the deduction of the container weight which ties again into that bulk shopping. And then to start it, I spent a year or two thinking about the business plan. Writing. Putting it down. Cause I was like, I can’t do this. I don’t know how to run a business. That’s a really important step. A, any lender is going to need to see your business plan to make sure you know what you’re doing, but it’s really also. Was really helpful to think out all the different aspects and make you do your research and your homework.

So writing the business plan, coming up with cashflow projections, which was really hard because there’s no market research or data on what people spend at a bulk store. So I ended up using social media. As I’m like a huge tool to do that research. So ask people, like, what do you spend on groceries a week? What do you spend at the bulk store? How often do you go? And use that data to help inform my cashflow projections? And then I was trying to find a property by myself. Eventually was like, I don’t know how to talk to commercial property people or big building owners. So ended up finding an amazing woman, Linda who helped me find both locations for, for The Tare Shop. Was a huge advocate and helping me understand what, what were my rights and what I was allowed to ask for.

[00:12:05] Jennifer: And if anyone hasn’t been to a store like yours, could you explain how that works and what the experience is like of going to like a zero waste store? I think a lot of people don’t have access to those yet in their communities. Lots of room for you to expand.

[00:12:19] Kate: So every store is going to be different. Company or business will have their own way of doing things. So I can speak to what The Tare Shop is like. So you walk in, you bring your own containers but if you don’t have any, we also sell repurpose containers for 50 cents. Just there’s already, we don’t sell new containers because there’s already so many containers in the waste stream already.

So folks can donate their containers to us and we’ll wash them and sanitize them. The 50 cents just to help recoup some of that labor for sanitizing and, and managing all that. So then you bring your containers up to the counter and this staff will weigh all of your containers. And we’ve. And we’ve found that to be a really important piece, that some other stores, you weigh your own containers, but we really like weighing the customer’s containers. Cause again, it is a lot of people’s first times doing this, or maybe COVID happen. And they haven’t been in, in a couple of years, so they forget how things work.

When people come in, we have that opportunity to check in, see how they’re doing, see how their day’s going and offer up that piece of education. So have they been here before? Do you need a refresher on how it works? And then once the containers are all weighed, we have filling stations. And that was the thing that came out of COVID that will stick around forever for us. Before we didn’t have a designated place where you did your filling people kind of just like perched up on the countertops or on the coffee tables. So now we actually have different stations where you can put all of your containers.

Bring the jar of almonds and chocolate caramels to your station. And do the filling there instead of trying to juggle glass jars above the ground. And then the beauty and one of my favorite reasons to shop package free is that if you only need a teaspoon of something for a recipe, you can literally just buy a teaspoon. This was probably Thanksgiving Canadian Thanksgiving. So late October mid-October I dunno. But we had just been open and a dad came in who was visiting their kid and was cooking the Thanksgiving meal and the kid didn’t have any of the right spices. So the dad came in and bought like, exactly. The number of teaspoons of each spice that he needed to make their family tradition meal. And that was so cool because I think that really just like highlights, you don’t need to buy a huge quantity if you just need a little bit. And then, Yeah. So once you fill up all of your containers, you bring them back And the staff deducts the container weight from the total, since the name Tare.

[00:14:51] Jennifer: And when you began to stock your shelves, when you’ve opened your store on your, began to stock your shelves, and you began to look into conventional goods that are available through wholesale, did you find anything surprising?

[00:15:03] Kate: What has surprised me pleasantly is the number of local suppliers who are willing to work with us and trade containers back and forth so that we don’t have their products packaged. That’s been a really happy happy surprise and like so grateful for all of our suppliers. There hasn’t been anything that’s been like too shocking or two surprise. But one thing that I did, that was pretty interesting for bringing in products. When we opened the first store we used, I think it was literally like 40 products that we stocked. And these were things that I again use the social media to, to ask people what they wanted us to sell and pick the most important ones or the most common ones.

And then we’ve brought products in and we’ve grown our offerings based on customer requests. So. The only products that haven’t moved or haven’t sold well, are the ones that I brought in that nobody had asked for. So that way we know what we are selling people want, and it won’t go to waste.

[00:16:03] Jennifer: And I assume that your background in sustainability does give you an unique advantage here, but has it in, let me try that again, but has it influenced how you make purchasing decisions when you are shopping for your store?

[00:16:16] Kate: I think being really. Like cautious, like, especially with any of the lifestyle products, making sure that I’m research thing, researching them to make sure that the company is one that we align with them, want to work with and even just like down to values and avoiding greenwashing. Which is unfortunately very, very common now is being eco and natural and sustainable is very trendy.

Making sure that the companies are doing what they’re saying they are doing.

[00:16:50] Jennifer: Yeah. As someone who owns a distribution company, myself too, one of the things that is always top of mind for us, uh, and it’s really the, the impacts of shipping.

And packaging. And it’s something that I think that most people don’t consider, like they’ll go into a store, they’ll think, oh, it’s local, because they’re only thinking about how they’re getting that from the shelf into their own home.

But they’re not necessarily thinking about how it got here in the first place. What are the costs associated? What are the costs associated with creating something like a traditional. Retail store in terms of environmental impact, like what else are you considering that we’re not thinking about.

[00:17:33] Kate: That’s such a great question. Cause even when I was living, like I still live low waste, but I used to have like the trash jar that I like recorded my waste in. Cause I think that’s a great tool to understand the type of waste you’re creating.

But even then, like that’s not the whole picture. You don’t see the waste that the store had, the packing material that it came to them and you don’t see all of the upstream waste as well. So I think the upstream waste is a huge piece that we don’t see. And all of those, like yeah. Upstream costs. So the emissions that that product took to get from where it was manufactured, the materials, the, where it was manufactured to getting it to the distributor, to get it to the retail store.

So all of those emission costs all of the social costs. So was the product did. Employer who made the product, pay their employees fairly with fair wages? How were they workers treated? So those are all, and I, you can’t talk about.

environmental issues without talking about social issues. They’re so intertwined.

So those are also all hidden costs and like with things like fast fashion the material is so, or the product is so cheap because all of those other costs are being captured in the product. They aren’t paying their workers fairly. They aren’t regarding any environmental impact, most likely. So those costs just aren’t being captured in those products.

[00:18:55] Jennifer: And so you’ve achieved B Corp certification. Congratulations. As a small business owner.

Exactly. Uh, as a small business owner, who’s been going on that journey for some time. Now I cannot imagine how difficult that was for you. Congrats.

But I’d like to talk about what certifications like that mean to you.

So if you’re sourcing products at wholesale, are you looking for certain certifications? And what does that tell you about the products that are certified? I was just wondering how important certifications are to you as someone who is in retail.

[00:19:31] Kate: Yeah, definitely. If we are deciding between two companies, One is B Corp certified, and one is not we’ll pick the B Corp certified as the consumer or somebody purchasing. It just takes away that research that you might want to do before looking into a product, because you know that the company has been through a rigorous process to get certified, you know, that they are doing what they’re saying, they’re doing, they’re putting their money where their mouth is, or whatever that saying is And they’re yeah, they’re committed to, as like B Corp slogan, they’re committed to using business as a force of good.

So obviously companies need to be making money to be successful, but at least like my definition of success is so much more deeper than that because I th I think a lot about impact and like the impact that my company has. So, Yeah, for like certifications, like B Corp are so good because they are helping to spread awareness and this movement of using business to create change and be a force for good is catching on and just gaining in popularity, which is so important.

And yeah, I forget where I was going with that.

[00:20:36] Jennifer: One thing that I love to add to this conversation, or one thing that I love to ask. Whenever this comes up is how do you think that impact business is resonating with consumers? Do you think that consumer behavior is shifting at the same pace that business owners are starting to think about

[00:20:50] Kate: impact?

A couple of things. I think that the business owners who are on top of it and aware of these trends and thinking this way, they are probably moving a bit quicker than the consumers, but I think the consumers are catching up. And already, like, I feel like in the last couple of years Consumers are getting smarter and more aware of the impacts that products have that businesses have and are starting to demand different and demand better and demand more transparency from the places that they shop at. So I think that businesses who aren’t thinking, and that’s not saying everybody has to be B Corp certified but people, businesses who aren’t. Being transparent and dark. Aren’t being forthright about what the impact that their businesses have. I think they will lose customers and they will lose some of their customer base because of that, for sure.

[00:21:50] Jennifer: So you started the shop with feedback from people on social media, giving you input into what to stock your shelves, which, which I love, but what was the moment that you realized that this could work or that people would actually be interested in supporting a business idea like this?

[00:22:05] Kate: When we announced the business on social media, it was such a scary thing because once you put it out there, you can’t take it back.

You can not do it, but you can’t. You can’t take it away. And like right away within the first couple of weeks, I was flooded with messages and emails. Emails and then messages from social media of people saying that they were so excited to shop this way. And they were so excited for The Tare Shop to open.

Cause they’d been trying to reduce their waste and it just hasn’t been possible or accessible to them. So right away that was like a pretty good, like, okay, we’re good. This is gonna work. And then you run all the numbers that you. I can guess and can make up educated guesses for your cashflow projections.

And almost right away, my numbers, the sales were way better than I ever expected them to be. More people were excited to be shopping this way. A lot of people in the direct community shopped because it was just closer than, than driving or walking to, to the bigger stores farther away. So that was another like, okay, like we’ve got this, this is going to work.

And another thing that I wasn’t expecting at all, but pretty much from even before we opened. Every week we would get messages. When are you opening up a tear shop in this community, this city, this town this province. So all over the country, I’ve had requests for Terra shops. So that was another really cool thing that I didn’t expect, but so many people would be so into this idea and wanted a tear shop in their community.

[00:23:37] Jennifer: And so I was looking around within your social media, I’m looking at your community and this, this real community feel that you have built with your followers. And one of the things that I. Really makes your store special to the people that love you really is that you do a lot of other things about X in order to be accessible.

Can we talk about your accessibility initiatives within your shop? Cause I think that they’re, they’re really exciting and interesting to talk about

[00:24:07] Kate: Yeah. So that was the I think, yeah, we would never open up a tear shop in a building, like even just base level building that wasn’t accessible. Folks with physical disabilities or mobility aids already have such a hard time navigating.

Really, especially really old cities like health facts. So being aware, just reducing that one barrier and then in our store making sure that it’s accessible for folks all walks of lives, making sure that it’s an inclusive, inviting, welcoming non-judgment space. And we have accessibility policies on our website. Like ensuring that our social media is accessible. So anytime we post a video with speech or text we include captions any time that we post a photo, we have an image description and our hashtags use camel case, which just means that the first letter of each hashtag is re within the hashtag is capitalized. Making sure that we eat like, even as simple as like having kids toys in the space, so that it’s a bit easier for a parent with young kids to come and shop, they can plot their kids down in front of the toy bin or books the kids can play while the parents do their shop. And that’s been such a special thing us.

[00:25:23] Jennifer: I love the scent free thing too. Cause I’m a scent. We’re a scent free family.

[00:25:27] Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Even like, there’s so many things that you, as somebody, without any barriers or accessibility needs that you might not even think about. So like all of the cleaning products that we use are scent free and we do sell scented products, but they’re all closed, so they don’t smell In the space.

And then like lights and sounds. We’re always happy to turn the music off or pause the music. Dim, the lights they’re all on dimmers if somebody needs to. So we don’t have like designated times, like I know Walmart might, or some other big stores might have designated times. But we’re happy to do that at all.

At any point of the day

[00:26:04] Jennifer: In your journey in specifically throughout the pandemic, have you encountered any other really big challenges?

[00:26:13] Kate: Not including COVID.

[00:26:15] Jennifer: I think there, I think COVID has just maybe amplified.

So our challenges as

[00:26:20] Kate: Yeah, definitely. Like even from the beginning, like I was 24 when I noticed the business, if my math is and memory are correct. And like I looked pretty young, so just even getting people to take me seriously and where the chair shop was such a new concept. There was no store in the province, like the chair shop Getting lenders to believe in what I was doing.

I had one lender who told me that my paraphrasing business plan was stupid. I would need plastic bags and disposable coffee cups to, to be successful. So, yeah, even just like getting people bought in on this idea has well, the community’s been very supportive getting some of the people in suits with the money to take me seriously.

But yeah, that COVID, yeah, it’s just amplified. Every challenge. And while we’ve been fortunate enough not to have any like labor issues and getting incredible folks on our team the labor shortages have affected some of our suppliers. So some of our suppliers locally, even, and who are able to do deliveries every day are now down to a couple of times a week managing like all the, yeah, the labor shortages, how they affect suppliers and leads, lead times being so unpredicted.

The w worst one was we placed an order, usually a weekly time, like four weeks, we still hadn’t heard. And it had all been paid for upfront. And then all of those little delays like that just really affect your cashflow. So it makes it harder to make that next purchase because your cashflow has been tied up for a while.

[00:27:54] Jennifer: And when we saw people hoarding toilet paper and, and, uh, when we saw people lie selling their groceries and wearing gloves every time they opened doors, I’m sure that that shift in like collective mindset really effected you and probably rattled you quite a bit. How did you feel when that happened?

Like what was going through your mind when COVID hit? And we were all, all of a sudden, so worried about things like sanitation, what was that?

[00:28:24] Kate: Oh, my gosh, it was so scary. I wish I kept like a journal or a diary even just to see how like, cause I feel like a trauma response is you don’t really remember. So I remember being terrified. But I don’t necessarily remember the feelings too deeply.

But yeah, it was so scary. I was in Toronto for a conference and got back like the Saturday night at like midnight before the world shut down. And just even. Yeah, asking staff to work. I wasn’t comfortable with staff working. They weren’t comfortable working, so laid everybody off. And I went back to working on the floor zero hours a week to working on the floor six days a week by myself.

Doing all the shopping for people. So people would come in and they’d stand in like one spot and I would do all the filling for them. Again, it was just all so unknown. And I remember wearing like gloves instead of a mask. Cause I thought that we just thought that was the safer thing. Didn’t realize how aerosol like transmittable by air.

It was and. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was really, really intense. And I would go grocery shopping. Typically, what did the grocery shopping for my household? Cause I was already out in the community and would come home and just like sod. It was so intense to be everybody also just got, we lost that, that community feel and that co like shared experiences.

Everybody was so tunnel vision and focused on themselves. Even like walking out on the street. Like nobody was saying hi to anybody else. Everybody was like looking down, looking away. So absorbed in like their own safety and their own wellbeing. There was one walk, my partner and I went on like April 20, 20, so peak, scary, scary times.

We were like, okay, we’re both like very low, very sad today. Let’s get out. Move our body get some fresh air and it just made it so much worse. Cause there was like police ticketing, people like walk cutting through the commons, which is a big field in Halifax. Like people are reading ticketed for being outside.

Everybody was like, so like wrapped up and, and, and yeah, not social and not friendly anymore. So that?

was a big mind shift and, and, and emotional mental thing to get over.

[00:30:50] Jennifer: Do you feel like a lot of customers of yours kind of rejected the idea of bulk or refill at that time?

[00:30:56] Kate: I think a lot of people did.

And. Like rightfully so it was a scary time. But it was pretty early on in the pandemic that there was a report issued by hundreds of, or over 125. I think it was like doctors and scientists and health professionals who said that using reusables was safe as long as they were clean, which for food health, safety, anyways, they should be clean.

So, and we like my waist to also definitely increase through dependent. But there was a lot of our regular customers. We probably lost for a bit there, but a lot who were so grateful to be able to like at least keep this part of normalcy and keep this way of reducing waste alive in their lives.

And also nice to like go somewhere where they felt very safe. A lot of the feedback that we got was this was like one of the only stores they felt safe going into. Cause it was just me and them. And I also definitely became like an emotional, like dumping ground for people who, some people come in and be like, I haven’t talked to another adult in like a week, like here’s my life.

Which was a lot, but, but nice to connect with customers as well.

[00:32:04] Jennifer: And now that COVID is kind of alleviating at least in terms of the way that we are all interacting with the world. Again, I know that. The zero waste living or low waste living took a huge hit through all of this. Like everybody, I was ordering my groceries. They were coming in plastic bags. It was eating my heart.

Every time, every time I had to wear a disposable mask, as opposed to a cloth mask, I throwing out it’s, it’s eating me inside. Are you seeing a shift now of people go. You know, extra in the direction of zero waste or being more mindful of waste after living through this like massive waste stream of the last two years.

Like, how is this shifting as someone who’s really on ground level

[00:32:46] Kate: here?

Yeah. I think people are even the people who might not have been very aware. Now aware, cause you can even see in the number of like garbage bags that you’re throwing out that waste all of our wastes have increased. So I think the people who were already trying are definitely committed to doing this and, and trying to live with less impact.

And I think I, yeah, I trying to stay optimistic, but I think. This has shifted things and we see have seen the impacts and know that we, that we need better for, for our world today than we have been doing.

[00:33:26] Jennifer: And when you’re speaking to your customers about taking steps or taking action in order to live a more sustainable life. What is your like top tip? What is the number one thing you tell people to do when they are coming to you as an expert and asking you what they can do to live more sustainably?

[00:33:45] Kate: The first tip, I always tell folks is to use up what you already have. So it’s way more wasteful to go to your pantry or your bathroom or your cleaning closet And throw out everything in there and replace it all. It’s a huge waste of resources. It’s a huge waste of money. So use up what you have and then as your bottle of cleaning, spray runs out refill that.

So we have. Like all purpose, cleaner concentrate. So refill things as you run out, instead of going and replacing it all and even like the plastic mop that you have is more sustainable than going out and buying like a, all bamboo one. So using what you already have is the most sustainable option.

And then the next thing I would say is be kind to yourself Yeah, this is all about like building habits and changing your mindset and that stuff doesn’t happen overnight. It takes time, it takes practice. And if you cave and buy a coffee in a disposable cup, like it’s not the end of the world remember to bring your mug next time or be being aware yeah, not beating yourself up if getting to a bulk shop isn’t accessible to you.

That’s okay. There’s other things that you can do to lessen your.

[00:34:57] Jennifer: And what about a small business owner? What is something that they can do to lessen their impact? Like what would you suggest to someone like me or someone who owns a business in your

[00:35:07] Kate: That’s a great one. I think being really. Like doing your research.

The number of business owners that have asked me about the compostable coffee cups, they’re not actually compostable in the majority of municipalities. They go to the landfill and just something compostable in the landfill isn’t necessarily better than something. Not like a garbage piece of garbage in the landfill.

So in the amount of business owners I’ve had, who asked me and I’m like, I hate to tell it to you. That’s not compostable. And they’ve spent more money per cup or whatever the product is on this like green sustainable compostable, PLA, uh, cup than they normally would have. So they’ve wasted a lot of money.

So yeah. Do your research. It takes a little bit of time, but at least in HRM, there’s waste educators who are always really be happy to chat And answer questions. So tap into the resources in your community and do your research before buying like a green product.

[00:36:06] Jennifer: And I think B Corp was a really big eye-opener for me, at least in terms. That kind of stuff. Of course, like really evaluating our business, which we already thought we were doing great. You know, we already had been so mindful of all these decisions, but going through the B Corp process has really opened our eyes to making those small changes.

But one thing as an outsider, And at first and B Corp, when I wasn’t involved at all. And I had never really heard about it before. I did know that sustainability was a big part of B Corp and I knew it was about protecting the earth. But what I did not know was that B Corp has such a community focus. And I was wondering since you’ve gone through B Corp and gone through the certification, how have you chose to.

What’s the word, how can we say this? How are you benefiting your community? I’m wondering what your community action oriented events are.

[00:37:09] Kate: Yeah.

[00:37:09] Jennifer: Are you serving your community?

[00:37:11] Kate: yeah, I love that. Yeah. One thing I think a lot of people don’t realize is that B Corp, isn’t just like in a focus on environmental. It’s also all about social And then community impact as well.

So I was inspired by 1% for the planet. But instead of doing 1%. Two different environmental organization. I wanted the, to give to directly to the community, so different organizations in the community, but also we’ve given to like go fund me campaigns and things like that. So very like direct community oriented organizations.

So one each quarter we donate 1% of our sales to a different community organization. And those are nominated by the community, voted on with the staff. And so that’s like one piece, we run events, we host other makers and creators for popups. We don’t charge people for that. It’s just a way to like bring people into the space.

And especially after COVID regained some of that community feel to the space. And yeah, like offering up our space, offering up our platform to community members, being, sharing things, amplifying voices is really important.

[00:38:17] Jennifer: And what about our children or the children in your community, the adults of the future. How do you think that the work that you’ve done is impacting them? Like, what do you think about the future of Halifax or the future of all of us as we explore zero.

[00:38:34] Kate: I think kids are so smart. And yeah, educating the kids is a huge piece of this. I think that’s how, like the recycling initiatives started. They went into schools and educated all of the kids and the kids went home and taught the parents how to, how to recycle.

So yeah, making sure that we are educating the kids and, and not necessarily like not sugar coating things. But doing it in a way that inspires them to create change or to change up habits or to encourage their parents to change up habits or guardians instead of like scaring them. Cause I definitely got scared in university.

And whereas I think if I had been aspired, it would have been like, I would have emotionally felt different for sure. So educating kids in a way that inspires them. So I love going into schools and giving talks and, and talking to youth groups, I’ve done a ton of those, especially pre COVID.

[00:39:30] Jennifer: I’m wondering if you’ve heard. I’ve seen a couple memes lately and I haven’t explored it at all, but, like grocery shopping in the 1950s and how different it was for now. Have you seen these memes?

[00:39:42] Kate: I don’t. I think I’ve seen like one, but one thing that I didn’t expect when we open, I kind of expected like young woman to be our primary target market. But what I didn’t expect was like 60 plus year olds to come in and being like, this is how we used to shop. This is amazing that we can shop this way again. So, yeah, we like plastic is a new invention. It hasn’t been around forever. And all shopping used to be packaged or plastic free.

I think the more locations that we have, the more impact that we can have, and the more common this becomes this way of shopping way of thinking just becomes more like mainstream and, and easier for folks.

[00:40:22] Jennifer: And do you think we’re going to get there?

[00:40:24] Kate: Yes, I do.

[00:40:26] Jennifer: If you want to learn more about Kate, package- free living and how to shop her carefully curated collection of low waste goods. Visit thetareshop.com. Looking to learn more about zero waste and the steps you can take to reduce plastic in your life. There are a lot of tips and resources on the Tare Shop’s blog. If you want to follow along with Kate on her mission to make package free living accessible. You can do so on Instagram @thetareshop

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher from Pillars of Light came together in the darkest part of the pandemic, with the goal to spread love and light throughout the world. In this episode, we learn how the two explored the one-for-one model and other ways to give back, before settling on a partnership with GivePower. We discover why they chose luxury candles and why they went from pouring their own to partnering with a manufacturer in Montreal. We bring to light the unique challenges of launching a product in COVID times, learn what it means to be purpose- first. Hear what they learned about candle safety and funding for female-founded companies, and why after committing to bringing clean drinking water to 1 Million People, they feel so hopeful for the future. 

If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon and how they’re Giving love through light—with a 1-for-1 approach visit www.pillarsoflight.co. Looking for that perfect gift? Their giveback model means that your purchase gives access to 5 years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on Instagram @pillars_of_light.co

Links from this episode

• Pillars of Light Co.

• GivePower

Episode Transcript

 

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: It’s 2021 in the middle of Canadian winter and in the middle of the pandemic when friends, family, and community members were isolated and really struggling. Two friends decided to come together to spread a little light and the two who live more than two hours apart, connected online and over the phone to chat about creating a business. With the idea to create a product rooted in people and purpose that would bring a sense of hope to those around them. But they also wanted to focus on social impact and giving back. Spreading light all over the world as a symbol of life-giving hope.

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher met in the health and wellness space. And as former co-workers, they had always dreamed of finding a way to collaborate together. Sharing similar values, both wanted to create meaningful impact in some way. And leaning on Janey’s experience nursing in Africa, and their shared desire to support women and families, Pillars of Light was born.

And the truth is that even now more than 3.5 billion people around the world live without access to reliable electricity. Every 90 seconds, a child dies of waterborne illness and disease. And organizations like GivePower supply, clean, and safe water to those in developing countries. And it was the perfect choice for the give back model for Pillars of Light.

I asked Janey and Shannon to describe Pillars of Light in one sentence. They call it a luxury candle company with a lasting purpose where every purchase of their candles gives five years of access to clean drinking water to someone in need in a water scarce region around the world

[00:04:07] Janey Snelgrove: I’m Janey Snelgrove and I’m a founder of Pillars of Light co.

We’re both moms, we’re both wives. We both are entrepreneurs. We’ve been in entrepreneurship for over 20 years, each of us. And we’ve always been about helping people. And so when Shannon and I had been, over the years, getting to know each other and working we’ve often said, oh, we should do something right. We should do something outside of this. And it wasn’t until a conversation during the pandemic, when we’re both in lockdown that we thought maybe there’s something we can do because there’s a lot of fear. There’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s just a lot of angst in the world and we were feeling it and, we do a lot of personal development and, we’ve worked through a lot of things, a lot of mindset and we were feeling it and we were like, you know what, if we’re feeling it, I’m sure other people are feeling it. And what can we do to make a difference? Because right now we feel like we can’t do a lot, but what can we do?

[00:05:02] Shannon Fisher: I’m Shannon Fisher, the other half of Pillars of Light.  We had this conversation like a girlfriend conversation, does, we go from one thing to the next, to the next. And we were starting to set some goals and dreams and adjust what our future could look like moving out of this. We felt like we just had an opportunity to, to lean in and to ask some bigger questions. What if we could actually start something that made a significant change in the world? And I ought to be honest, I think it was the first time for me in, in a while. That I felt hope again. I had been quite sick prior, uh, for a couple of years. And it was the first time for me that I was just like, I felt, there was some light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And so we were excited to jump in and learn more but what we could do with.

[00:05:48] Jennifer Chua: Now it’s immediately evident when you look at your website or your social media, that creating an impact and environmental responsibility and just being a purpose-based business is so important to you. But what led you to see the world this way? Is there an event that stands out in your mind?

[00:06:05] Janey Snelgrove: I grew up on a farm and my parents brought in students to work for a couple months from all over the world. And so we had someone from Sri Lanka from south America. Oh gosh, just different places. And some other Canadians from other provinces would come to, and it started my quest as a child to think, oh, not everyone lives like we do in Ontario. Not everyone eats the same food. Not everyone has the same background, the same experience. And so it really started this quest for me of, oh, what’s it like in other parts of the world. Growing up. I think I was just really also taught that, when we have, we can share, there’s always enough to share. And so, I was fortunate to be able to go to Guyana when I graduated as a nurse and, volunteer for a month. And my husband, also was there and we experienced firsthand, living in another culture and we experience what it was like to live without electricity. And there was times when, like we had electricity, but there was times when the power would go out in the hospital or in the place where we stayed. And it really opened my eyes to how frustrating that is. You’re in the middle of a shower and the lights go out and it’s at night and you’re like, how do I get how to get around?

And you don’t have candles set up and you’re not prepared. And I realized this is a, this is something that like, people make a lot of people around the world, almost a billion people around the world deal with every day. And for me, it was just so eye-opening and so. As I’ve grown in entrepreneurship, one thing that I’ve always thought of is what can we do to help other people, like, it’s great to have products that can help people here in north America.

And when Shannon and I were creating our candles, we thought, first we have to love our customers and really let them know that what we’re putting into their home is luxury. It’s beautiful. They’re going to love to look at it, but then what’s in, it is actually supporting them, with a wellness based essential oils and healthy, a healthy product.

But then we also thought, okay, what can we do beyond that? And when we started to dig in and think, okay, this is an opportunity to do a one for one model. You know what what’s happening around the world with electricity. And when we discovered there is so many people living every night in darkness, we knew there was something we can do. And so we evolved from thinking about, okay, if we were to, how to candle company, what could we give as part of our one for one, the story evolved into water.

[00:08:35] Shannon Fisher: We realized really quick that the world needed more love and light in the world. Janey had a contact with friends that lived in Malawi and, it was that email back that I think that for me, just really affirmed that we had an opportunity. We had an in a, in a responsibility. I’ve never had a chance to travel to a third world country in the sense that same way as Janey has, but I I’ve often wanted to really impact those that are, extremely less fortunate. And, one of the things that we realized is that we necessarily didn’t also want to take our first world view of what we think people need. We really wanted to hear and learn what is actually required. Like we could go in with our own moody system, but what is actually needed. And we started just asking some questions.

And when we got this response back from this beautiful gentleman that lived in Malawi, there was just such a hook, right. There was like, okay, I just felt so morally obligated. So, from one conversation leads to the next we knew that, we could bring a product to market and, we went everywhere. We were like, okay, do we bring candles into people’s homes? And that could provide light, this one for one model. And then we, of course we quickly realized that’s probably not the safest measure to bring a candle into someone’s hut because we don’t want to ever cause a fire. So we were like, okay, let’s look at solar based products and, just getting off the ground and being startup. We just started to say, okay, what can we do next? What’s that next step? A friend that we had met actually started to help us develop our brand. And he just really believed in what we were doing, he introduced us to a company called gift power, the gift power foundation, I should say. And when we met gift power, we were like, oh my goodness, like they’re doing everything that we believe in and they’re on the ground. And every single dollar, like it was literally this moment, we were like, okay, they are, they’re doing it right. The money goes right to the ground. They already had a partnership covering all of their administrative costs. And, for them, they realize the same thing that we did that this, electrical poverty was so significant that they started lighting up schools. They started bringing light in through solar based energy, but then what they found next was even more, a significant problem was the lack of access to clean drinking water. Every two minutes a child dies of waterborne disease, as mothers, we were like, it’s a no brainer. Okay, how do we partner? And what do we do next?

[00:11:05] Jennifer Chua: People that are such passionate change makers, like the two of you, I’m sure that this whole idea of using something to create change didn’t just start when you were adults, even. I’m wondering if either one of you have moments in your childhood that you’re remembering that you look back on now and say, yo yes I was always primed to be a change.

[00:11:24] Shannon Fisher: I always wanted to make a really big, big impact in the world. I didn’t necessarily really know how that was going to be. I’m always like laugh and say in a small town girl living in a lonely world, but it was, I always just felt that I was called to do big work. I think we can do community-based work, which is fantastic locally. But there’s just been this calling in my heart forever, as long as I can remember to do something more significant. It just felt right when, sharing this opportunity with friends, some of my closest friends were like, this makes complete sense. This is exactly what you’ve always talked about. This is what you’ve always dreamt about and just really excited that you’re going for it.

[00:12:05] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me, it was more of the perspective of, from that young age, seeing that there are people around this world that have less than I do. And just realizing that we all have a place and as a woman, Knowing that there’s more than one way to make change and change can sometimes be just being the kind person on the school bus to the stranger, to the new kid.

Right. And I was often that kid that would like, welcome the new kid because I didn’t want them to feel like they were different than us. And so, I think as, as women, Shannon and I, as we’ve gotten to know each other, I think both of us, just from the bottom of our heart, we, we believe in people.

We just believe that each and every one of us have something inside of us and that we’re here for a purpose and a reason. And when I started to realize that, women just disproportionately are affected by lack of water, I thought, gosh, we’ve had this conversation. What would it be like to be a mom. Having to pull water every day for our kids. Like the amount of time that would require how that would limit your ability to just be with your kids, to make food, to teach even, to get a job.

Each and every one of us have an ability to do something. And I don’t think it has to be anything huge or spectacular. It’s just something. And so when Shannon and I set out for our Pillars of Light, obviously we wanted to create something amazing for people who received the candle. But we also wanted to inspire people to know that when you buy this, you are doing something, you are helping someone in this farther place. Probably another mom, just like you or another student received water that they currently aren’t receiving. And so. to create something where people could join us in community because really community is what drives any kind of change. It’s not one person, it’s a community.

And so Pillars of Light is really an opportunity for people to come together and why, whether they purchase the candle for themselves, or they purchase it for somebody else that might be going through a challenging time. We can know that together, we really are making a difference. And that’s why, one of the right away, we were like, together, we are killers of light because it’s not just Shannon and I it’s going to take a whole village.

[00:14:26] Jennifer Chua: What was that conversation like when you decided that you want to work together? You’ve decided that maybe you have an idea for how you can create impact. How did that conversation go between the two of you?

[00:14:35] Shannon Fisher: Janey and just chatted for years and I often seek her as a confidant and just a really great friend. And I think because of the personal development work we’ve done throughout the years, we were really able to quickly realize that we both had different strengths in different buckets. There was immediate trust there right away, uh, that, we’ve gone through hard times, uh, together we’ve had to do hard work together.

We’ve had to, really rally at times and, in any partnership it’s, it’s not always, roses and there’s going to be hard conversations. We’re both faith-based women. And we just said, Hey, if it’s going to be it’s up to it’s up to him. And let’s just kind of continue to lean in. It’s been the most beautiful work that I’ve done in my career up to this point. So I think one conversation just has led to the next, to be honest.

[00:15:28] Janey Snelgrove: Yeah, we’re dreamers. Right. But we’re also doers. And so, we, when in our initial conversations it was like, okay, well, if we’re going to do this because a, we have other businesses, we have fizzy families, this better be something good. Like we’re not just in it just to touch the waters, we’re in it to like dive in and see that ripple. And so we knew that our partnership was going to be really important. I sometimes we have these doubts that we’re like, what are we doing? How is this going to work? Like, who are we? We’ve never been in the candle industry before. We’ve never been in manufacturing. These are all big jumps. They’re not just little baby steps. It’s like a giant leap. But we’ve always come back to, we’re in this together, we’re problem solvers.

And most importantly, it’s going to take a team. And so we’ve been able to put amazing people around us to help us to see our mission. And we keep grounded in, what, if we hit our goal of impacting a million people, fantastic. But if we only help one person have water for five years, freaking fantastic.

When we have those days of like, what are we doing? We boil it down to, okay, what’s the big picture. And the big picture is helping people. And so, one day at a time, that’s all we can do one day at a time.

[00:16:40] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to look into the one for one model, what other avenues for giving back were you exploring?

[00:16:46] Shannon Fisher: When we first started we were just looking at some different models and, Janey had got a great pair of Bomba socks for Christmas. And so she was explaining this to me and, I’ve always been very intrigued in the one for one model and just even socially responsible businesses. and so again, like we, when we decided to do this, it was like, okay, we’re just not going to be a typical candle company. So we wanted to redefine this industry. We also wanted to redefine, women partnership in business. And so we had a couple of key goals. And so we looked at the one for one, you need to be honest.

At first we were like, let’s, let’s just see what’s available. And we thought, well, maybe we would create that one for one. And we would be able to do both sides. And when we were just really focused initially on our own product innovation, like what were we going to actually, what we’re going to give to our customers in order to create the one for one when we met with gift powder, we looked at a few other organizations.

But that was actually first conversation we actually had with the company. And it just felt right. It just checked all the boxes. So you didn’t really have to go into any further discovery. At this point, of course, knowing that there we’ll probably have other partnerships along the way, uh, this just kind of met everything that we were looking for at the moment.

[00:17:54] Janey Snelgrove: We wanted it simple. Because we know that people’s attention is so short and there’s so many different, great products out there, but we wanted it to be able to say, Hey, if you take the time to buy this one candle for yourself for someone else, here’s what it equals. Looking at, Bombus looking at, Tom’s looking at some of the other companies out there that have the one for one, we really tried to study. What, why have they done well? And it’s because it’s simple. You by one candle, you give five years of drinking water, 1,825 days of clean drinking water with this one luxury candle.

So for us, we thought let’s follow what has worked with some other companies and see if we can just build on upon it and grow from there. And like Shannon said, give power’s our first partnership, but as we grow, we’re open to looking at other ways that we can have impact, but we know the power of solar energy and we know the power of water.

When we were chatting about what was going on in the world and distress, people were under in the fear, the uncertainty, the loneliness the loss, like so many people have lost jobs. They’ve lost family members. They’ve lost opportunities to have a wedding and to celebrate they’ve lost holidays for the last two years. There’s been so much change and uncertainty that we really started look at okay. Fear is to darkness what love is to light. And so when we decided to start this candle company, we thought there’s so many parallels that if people could really dig in, that these candles are actually reminders, that light is greater than the darkness that love casts out all fear. The impact that we wanted to have obviously was globally with our gift back. But locally, when someone purchased their candle, we want them to just see the power and the reminder that sometimes we all need a reminder of the love and the light inside of us, that we can make a difference. We want it to have that global impact, but first we want it to have that local impact with our customer who was able to really just get this beautiful candle, this beautiful curated scent and be reminded of the power of love and the power of light that they have within them.

[00:20:12] Jennifer Chua: When we spoke earlier, we spoke about mental health being something that is important to both of you as well. And I was wondering how Pillars of Light either affects mental health now, or if you have any plans going forward to do impact in that area. I was just wondering about the whole mental health piece of this brand?

[00:20:33] Shannon Fisher: Great question, Jennifer, Janey and I were actually chatting and this has come up quite a few times for us is. I think prior to the pandemic, people were struggling. We live really busy lives. People sometimes haven’t been managing their life as much as they, I think they would like to and then the pandemic hit. And what we do know is, the next kind of pandemic, so to speak is mental health. And I do a lot of work in this area. And I’ve seen a lot of people continue to struggle. And it’s one of those things do we see ourselves taking a, uh, an opportunity here potentially. But what we do know is we’ve had some just extraordinary feedback that people are lighting this candle, and it’s helping them. It’s helping them with their mental clarity. It’s helping them recognize that even when I in, maybe, uh, having a rough day or a dark day, I can look at that candle and it’s reminding me of that inner light.

And that was really important to Jamie and I, because we can often get caught up in the weeds and we can often get caught up in our own darkness and sometimes just letting that candle and just watching it. Is, is that opportunity to be reminded that the light that’s within us and the other part is I don’t have to extinguish my light in order to light up Janey. Like I get to keep my light on while I also could like her candle. And that was another big part of our movement is to remind people that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And in the simplest form, if we can make life really complicated, as we all know, but if we lean into love and we lean into light there’s going to be brighter days ahead. And we really wanted to help people just to be reminded of that and that there’s people there in the world that to care for them. And again, through community that things, things can be okay.

[00:22:32] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to actually look at making candles and manufacturing candles, did you find anything surprising?

[00:22:40] Janey Snelgrove: It’s interesting when we were first talking about it was right in the middle of the pandemic, the one of the lockdowns, and we were like, oh, let’s create a new hobby candles. And we soon realized that candle making is an art and a science. And we spent hours like hours. Our kids were involved. Our husbands were involved. Our husbands were so happy when we decided that we are not makers. Our gift is not making. Our gift is sharing stories and, and opening and helping businesses grow. Oh boy, our friends, they sniffed some smelly candles and we had a lot of funny laughs, hats off to the makers out there who have really understood the science and the art of it. And, and one thing that was important to us was using quality ingredients and it’s expensive. Using quality ingredients. But you can see the difference in the quality of the ingredients, how it affects the burn, the smell, like just the whole thing.

So we found a Canadian manufacturing partner that has been building candles for over 25 years. They are very, value-based very, very socially responsible. And as soon as we met them, went to their facility, got to meet the owner of the family. We knew here was another partner that was in alignment with us and we could trust them. We knew what they were creating and we’re really excited that they have come on board with us because we’ve been able to create two beautiful scents and more to come.

[00:24:18] Shannon Fisher: I just giggle from the first part. Then we started this and I still remember Janey and I sitting down at the table going okay, like, this is all well and good, but how are we, going back to the vision. It’s going to take so much longer for us to create this impact if we’re trying to pour candles and do all these other pieces. And so we knew that if we wanted to really make the impact, like Janey mentioned is that we had to find the right partner. To partner with people who have experience and so much experience, just made, made that transition a no brainer for us.

[00:24:52] Jennifer Chua: Have you discovered any costs associated with creating something like a candle that you might just pick up in any store, like in terms of environmental impact or impact on your health? Is there anything about candles that we need to be mindful of?

[00:25:04] Shannon Fisher: We went through like a really steep learning curve. And over the last couple of years, of course heard soy candles, soy-based candles were definitely the better way to go. I’ve been a candle connoisseur for many years. It’s probably my most favorite gift to give is to give a candle. And when we started to do some research into the wax. I was kind of shocked because yes, you can see a candle in our community for a couple of bucks to we found some candles that were priced, small atriums candle price at $125.

And we’re like, whoa, what is the difference here? And what we started to see things like petroleum based products even some of the blends, you don’t necessarily know if that’s a petroleum blend or not. And unfortunately petroleum-based candles are actually quite toxic to our health. So that was the one thing was making sure we found wax that was very safe for our customers. Both being in wellness is really, really important. The second thing was then finding a scent and Janey and I we scratched our heads on this one for, I felt like weeks, trying to figure it out and really understand what is that scent that people love.

And then what is the scent that also gives people headaches? I’ve got great girlfriends that were like, oh, I struggled buying candles because they burned them for a few minutes and I ended up with a wicked headache and I blow it out. And what we started to see again is that there can be often more phthalate in some of those products. They’re more synthetic. And what we realize is, again, is finding natural based aromas that were phthalate free, essential oil base. Initially we’re like we only want essential oils. But we quickly realized that that is all well and good, but not always easy in a candle because the fact that they need some other stabilizers, but we can use other and natural aromas and then the products that were phthalate free.

That was the second pillar. And then the third pillar, if you can believe it or not, the little wick that goes in those candles, often sometimes have lead in the, can you believe it lead in wicks. And so again, things we don’t want burning things I definitely do not want around my kids or, we have a, literally a funny farm Jeanie has a beautiful dog as well. And so we wanted to make sure, again, really high quality 100% soy base. That was what we were learning was probably going to be the best for our burn time, making sure that scent was sophisticated and strictly healthy and that we had lead free wicks. We feel confident, making sure people buy our product that they’re, we’re not putting their health in jeopardy.

[00:27:43] Jennifer Chua: As someone in the consumer product space. And obviously through this podcast, in this project and just meeting with impact business owners, I’ve learned a lot about lead and phthalates and how they are in an astonishing amount of products that we have in levels that are really not safe. I’m just wondering if you’ve noticed in this period of time, if consumers are valuing that information yet, or if it’s resonated with. What do you think is going on in terms of consumer product behavior?

[00:28:17] Janey Snelgrove: I think it’s starting. I think it’s just starting. So it was interesting in our initial research and just talking to different friends and people, we would talk about is soy base important to you? And they’re like, no. And I’m like, oh, tell me more about that. And , they didn’t even know. They didn’t know there was a difference. They didn’t know what a candle was made of and why soy was better. So I think that it’s growing, the movement is growing for having natural eco-friendly products. But I still think we’ve got a way to go. So that’s partly why, our job is also to educate.

[00:28:54] Jennifer Chua: You’ve touched on that you were going to your friends and you were asking them questions. You were getting your husbands involved. You were really talking to other people in the wellness community, but when was the moment that you really realized that this could work or that people would be interested in the idea of, of your business?

[00:29:09] Janey Snelgrove: We did a lot of research and we were like, okay, what will people buy candles? Like is candles even a thing. And when we started to look at the research 75% of women over 25 is really the target because they’re the ones that buy candles. And then we looked at the buying behaviors of that. And I can’t remember the stat off the top of my head, but a high percentage of people are now looking to see, is this company socially responsible what are their values? And they will choose to purchase from a company that has values and alignment. Just alone on the research, we knew that, okay, people’s buying behaviors are supporting this type of business

[00:29:49] Shannon Fisher: People even over the last little bit are looking for companies that what Janey mentioned, we kind of said that we were purpose and then people and then profit. So it wasn’t going to be the other way around. We had to have our purpose had, have our big, why we were doing this. We know it’s going to take incredible people both impacting people and of course, people to purchase. And, and then after that, if we kept those two things, as our priority profits will happen. And I would say, there’s been moments when we were like, is this going to work? And we went into a pre-launch and we launched our presale because we dealing with some supply chain things and all the stuff in the pandemic, they were like, okay, you never want a week crazy for starting a business in the middle of a pandemic where, there’s going to be, get things shipped.

And then we’re like, okay, let’s go into presale. And we ran an event and then we had people on there that registered. It will always be a moment kind of marked in my memory of when people started to order. And I was like, okay, we’ve got proof of concept. People want this. And so now it’s just up to us to increase that discoverability and just let people know that we’re here.

[00:31:00] Jennifer Chua: I wonder how that impacted some of the decisions that you’ve made, or if you have any learnings from that really unique experience of starting a business in the last two years?

[00:31:10] Janey Snelgrove: I think entrepreneurs sometimes have a dream and then they figure it out after. Right. And we just know as entrepreneurs, problem solving is right up there on your to-do list. Like curve balls come at, you left right and center. So I think part of it was we went into this with an attitude. Okay, this is a new gig for us. This is something new and we know we’re going to need to grow, and we know we’re going to need to have advisors. And we also are going to probably expect some challenges that being said, building in a pandemic was way more challenging than I even anticipated, partly because we’ve also never been in the manufacturing industry ourselves in terms of understanding supply chain delivery, demand costs.

And so firsthand, we got to see how, quoted on one thing and then a couple of weeks later. Oh no, no, no. We got, we’ve got to go up because of X, Y, and Z factor. And so, That was one thing. And then, delays, we had we’ve created a custom luxury box and it’s still not in our hands.

And we thought it was going to be ready for our launch in November. And so we had to pivot to find another box to just, do something as quickly as possible while still holding to our brand commitment of luxury. And so we had some, late night calls some times of like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do?

Are we going to make it, and so thankfully some advisers around us to just, calm us down a little bit, take us off the ledge and to remember that, okay, there’s always a solution. We just have to dig in to try and find it. So I have much more appreciation for product based company.

And for the industry as a whole, just really trying to deliver on their promises. And when you create, when you communicate to your customer, you want to stand behind that, but sometimes things out of your control come into play, and then you have to go back and say, actually, now we have to try to do this.

And so just really hoping to ask for grace, from people and also to extend grace to people we’re working with, who have had their timelines changed. And so, it has been a huge, it has been a huge learning for us. That’s for sure. But it’s been good. It’s been.

[00:33:41] Shannon Fisher: We didn’t really know anything different. We haven’t brought another product like this to market before. And so yes, we, I think have been faced with all our other challenges first year speaking to other advisors and, people we know in business that just kind of, they’re like good on you, girls for, doing this because you probably could have been maybe easier times for sure.

But at the same point, what we both know is is that we can do hard things and, as long as you’re willing to kind of take a deep breath and, calm your mind for a moment, look at some other solutions around us. We’re like, okay, we can still hold true to what we wanted. who we are. And we can still provide this great quality product. And so it has been such a, an exercise, like true exercise of, leaning in having great faith and honestly trusting the process. Like there’s we can talk about that, but when you’re actually living it, it’s totally different.

[00:34:37] Jennifer Chua: Are there any other unique challenges to operating a purpose first business that we don’t usually think about? Are people going into business or not thinking about.

[00:34:47] Janey Snelgrove: I think so. And we’re learning as we go through, right? This is all new for us, when you price your product, you have to read like every other entrepreneur understands their revenue and their profit. But for us, it’s like, okay, we have made a commitment with the amount that we are going to give, it’s also the purpose behind why we’re doing what we’re doing. And so we want to make sure that we can follow through and really have an impact. And so there is a balance of figuring out, financially. Making sure that your company is profitable so that you can have as much impact as you want to have.

We have to find a way to be profitable so that we can give. And that has been, I think, a learning curve as well, but also it’s our commitment. Like, that’s why we’re doing this. It’s not something that every entrepreneur has to deal with because we’re making our commitment upfront and other companies will often say, oh, sure, I’ll give out of my.

Right. And once they know they profits, then they give, and we’re like, oh, we’re committing to this. Whether we sell a candle or not, if we just sell one candle, this is what we’re doing. But there’s obviously costs. And so, I think that is the difference is that we’re making our commitment upfront where a lot of other companies make their commitment after they’ve sold. And that definitely makes it a little more challenging, but it also shows where our commitment is.

Shannon and I are very much believers in the ability of women when they put their minds to something. But I think one of the challenges that we have come firsthand to is financing for women startup businesses. And how is that easy? Thankfully we’ve been able to, start this up with our own equity. And when I went in, I had this assumption, oh yeah. The bank’s going to give us some money. I ask it to be easy. Oh yeah, we’ll get it. And wow. They don’t want to help you until you have two years of proof that it’s working. I guess what I’m trying to say is I want to encourage the women who are thinking of starting something that there’s always a way, but to expect there are challenges as a woman receiving financing.

[00:37:07] Shannon Fisher: There was this moment along our road where we were like, okay, like we’ve been in business. We have other businesses. We are established women in business. This should be easy. Right. And when we went down that road and started knocking on doors, it was a wake-up call for us to be like, whoa, whoa, what? No? Like what do you mean? And we had some beautiful feedback from people like, wow, this is like the most extensive business plan we’ve seen. And we’re like, oh, okay. Like giving us a pat on the back. And so we had done our due diligence. We had done the work and I think there’s a lot of times women go into business, we are responsible, we do our work. We dig in, we find out, especially if this is not something that you want to just kick the can at. Right. We wanted to go big on this project and it was frustrating. I remember having that moment going, okay, like, how is this going to happen? And we just, we just figured it out. And I think to that point is you just have to continue to lean in, start asking bigger questions. And then just allowing one door to open to the next and, thank heavens we’ve been able to strap this. I think here in Canada, I had a belief that this would be easy for women, but we started looking through different grants, janey and I are both over 40. Even that annoyed me, I was like, why is it only for women under 40 can get money? We’ve just saw lots of holes that are still are still within the business sector when it comes to funding that Just need to be closed. And I think to Janey’s point that if we can start to have more of these conversations, there are incredible people in the world that I think if they know how they can also solve a problem, we can really help more businesses come into marketplace of people who want to do really, really big and great. They just need some great people around them to help them see that vision to, to the end. When we were starting through the middle of the pandemic, so many people have had to cut back, and not having the same funding, not having the same opportunity to network . And so now, just even reflecting upon that, we put ourselves in a position where we just haven’t been able to meet up with as many people as we’d like to. But there’s always great opportunities as we continue to move forward.

[00:39:19] Jennifer Chua: And what about the children that you are impacting through your work and giving clean water to in Africa? How about them? Are you hopeful for their future?

[00:39:31] Shannon Fisher: Oh, my goodness. Beyond, beyond hopeful. Janey and I had these moments where we just sit and think about them and we can’t wait for the day that we can actually get over there and do a project. But we just know, even as mothers, like, if you can give your child something with like clean water, it’s such a necessity, just what that gives to someone to, to know that that child could have a brighter life. It just, it just means a lot, like it’s it’s work that I don’t know. I’m gonna get too emotional.

[00:40:11] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me too, it is. And we talked about this as being moms. I don’t even have any idea what it’s like being a mom where you have to go get water and thinking, oh gosh, what if it’s dirty? Right. Or seeing your child becomes sick. And so I think Shannon and I think about the comfort a mother would have knowing that, okay, this child has access to clean water for five years.

Right? Like, think about that, what that would do to take that level of stress off of you. In those hard days that we have, we have to remember, we’re not selling candles. We are helping people. And that’s what we have to keep our eye on. And so, I mean, we, it’s so funny as moms and as women, we have some good doozy cries it’s because we realize that what we have the opportunity to do can really make a difference.

And as an entrepreneur, when this becomes your baby You just want to make sure it’s a baby that you’re going to spend a lot of time on it is going to have an impact in a way that nothing else can. It’s just remembering. It’s just like, we’re asking our customers to remember the power of love and light within them. We also have to be reminded of, of, the power that, that we can have to help change someone’s life that we may never even get to meet. We probably will never get to meet, but just knowing that there is an opportunity to do something at the end of the day, when you’ve worked all day, it feels really good.

[00:41:47] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon, and how they’re giving love through light with a one for one approach, visit Pillars of Light.co. Looking for that perfect gift. Their give back model means that your purchase gives access to five years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on instagram@pillars_of_light.co.

Concerns about climate change led Katherine Ellison from Bright Planet Pet to look closely at the environmental impact of pet ownership and create a line of 100% plant-based dog treats that taste and smell like real meat. In this episode, we learn how consumer behaviour has shifted in the pet product space, chat about the humanization of pets and what this means for sustainability. And learn how you can make an impact in this area by sourcing alternative proteins or switching to plant-based treats. Which may help lower your pet’s carbon pawprint.

If you want to learn more about Katherine and her 100% plant-based pet treats visit brightplanetpet.com. In Canada? These sustainable, vegan, allergy-friendly treats are in-store at your local Pet Valu. You can follow along with Katherine on her mission to save the earth together with your pet one treat at a time on Facebook or Instagram @brightplanetpet.

Links from this episode

• https://brightplanetpet.com
• Carbon Pawprints: How Our Dogs & Cats Contribute to Global Warming
• Dogs, Cats And Climate Change: What’s Your Pet’s Carbon Pawprint?
• Ono Pet Bowls / Non-Skid, All-in-One Silicone Pet Bowls & Placemats

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:14] Jennifer Chua: If you consider yourself a dog person, you are in good company here. I’m a proud new puppy, parent, myself. And worldwide more and more of us are bringing pets into the home. Pet ownership is trending, increasing in countries all over the world -particularly in developing ones. And how we view our pets is also changing. They’ve become like members of the family. And as pet owners become more invested in the health and wellbeing of their companions, owning a pet may come with some more significant environmental impacts. The choices that we make in terms of our pets’ diets? Well, our dogs are no longer eating meat by-products and table scraps and bone meal. Consumer behaviour has shifted towards feeding higher quality meats in food and in treats. And since meat-based foods use land, water, and energy to manufacture, up to 64 million tonnes of carbon dioxide is emitted in the production of pet food alone. Forbes magazine reported that it’s even been estimated that owning a medium-sized dog can have a similar carbon footprint to a large SUV. Love your pets and the planet? There may be some alternatives worth exploring.

Bright Planet Pet was founded on the principle that dogs and their people deserve a truly sustainable dog treat that is delicious while being 100% plant-based and vegan. Their treats create 90% fewer carbon emissions and use 68% less water than a comparable meat-based treat.

 And just a couple of years ago, Katherine, the founder of bright planet pet was working for large-scale pet food and treat manufacturers. Helping large retailers and national brands manufacture and launch new products. And in her personal life, Katherine and her husband, Dave, were finding themselves, talking about climate change.

Her husband is a scientist. He’s very concerned about all things related to the earth and the pair are very connected to nature. Being out in nature, and going on hikes with their animals. They’re often awed by the natural beauty of our planet. And as they were becoming increasingly concerned about the crisis at hand and their own carbon footprint, they began to make small changes in their personal life. Recycling more, driving less, becoming more conscious of these choices that we make in our everyday lives. And one of the biggest choices was around the food that they were eating. And what kind of impact that their diet could have. So they began to add more plant-based meals, reduce meat. And Katherine soon became a full vegetarian. But it led her to think. What if we could feed our pets this way.

[00:04:59] Katherine Ellison: Even though we don’t have children of our own, when we think about setting the planet up for the next generation, I mean, there’s a huge concern there. And so we just want to do what we can on our part to make those small changes.

[00:05:15] Jennifer Chua: Katherine and her husband live in a beautiful area, surrounded by the nature that they love. The area of 10,000 lakes, Minnesota. They share their life with two cats and three dogs. One pug and two bugs, Boston terrier, pug mixes. Her days revolve strongly around her pets, feeding, walking, and exercising them takes up a lot of her time. But once everyone is taken care of Katherine’s dogs join her in the Bright Planet office space. (She lovingly refers to them as her coworkers) as she fulfills orders works on the business. And takes plenty of opportunities for treat breaks.

[00:05:55] Katherine Ellison: And then it’s always nice to have them to have little mental health breaks and give them some hugs and kisses. And remind me kind of why I’m doing all of this and why Bright Planet is so important. And of course we give lots of treats throughout the day. We treat them with all of our Bright Planet plant-based treats. They also are my taste testers for any product development. So right now I have a bag of biscuit samples, and they usually have those when they go to work first thing in the morning, and then for their afternoon snack.

[00:06:26] Jennifer Chua: So why do you think you are such an enthusiastic pet parent? Did you always have pets growing up? Or why are you so in love with our little furry friends?

[00:06:33] Katherine Ellison: I’ve always loved pets. I grew up with cats and we always had cats my whole childhood, actually, my first word was ‘kitty’, not even mom or dad or anything like that. I’ve just always had a really strong connection with animals. I think it’s the feeling of them just providing us unconditional love that was really something that I embraced and connected with. So I’ve had pets my whole life. I got my first dog when I was 25 and now I definitely love dogs and I love cats equally. So, we have both in our household. I started working at veterinary clinics when I was younger. And when I started working at vet clinics, I found my people. Like the people that love pets, want the best for them, understand them. And a lot of people that are, have strong connections with pets have strong empathy. And so that’s definitely one of the personality qualities that I think I relate to with my pets.

[00:07:38] Jennifer Chua: So you had this opportunity to start a business and create a product, create something, but when did it go into your mind that you had the opportunity to create change?

[00:07:48] Katherine Ellison: I came up with the idea a few years ago when I was at a trade show and I was talking with some colleagues and first I realized that there was a big opportunity to make treats that were specifically created for millennials. And now gen Z consumers. And one of the big things that were trending in the human food industry was the really the huge impact that beyond burgers and impossible meat, they were really like every single grocery store.

And there was so much press about it and they had a strong sustainability mission as well. So first I saw an opportunity to just make plant-based treats and market them as such because there weren’t any products like that on the market a few years ago. And then more so based on my experience and my knowledge about trends in the pet industry, we know that the human food trends come into the pet industry in about three to five years and so more.

So I saw a much bigger opportunity to actually create a plant-based treat that was kind of modelled after the concept of the impossible burger beyond burger and make a plant-based treat that actually tasted and smelled like meat so that our pets would actually really enjoy eating that. While the owner would understand that they were making a more sustainable choice.

So once I had that concept, everything fault fell into place as far as the impact that we could make, because we were going to be able to make treats that were super tasty and delicious with sustainable ingredients that removed meat from all of the formula. Which would, reduce carbon paw prints, reduce the amount of carbon emissions, reduce water usage and land usage. And also we decided to start an initiative where every time we sold a bag of treats, we make a donation to plant one tree. So it’s not just for us. What’s in the treat or what is not in the treat. It’s also the fact that every time you buy a bag you understand that somewhere in the world in an area of deforestation, a tree is being planted because you chose to buy a Bright Planet treat. And so that just goes along with our whole mission of really trying to combat climate change? in the pet industry, by making these small changes for our pets.

[00:10:14] Jennifer Chua: I’d like to talk about the pet industry. Because a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to work with a brand called Ono and it is a non-slip pet dish, but it’s made responsibly with silicone. And I went to one of these large industry trade shows for pets and our brand and this other brand that were making treats, I believe out of cricket flour. We were the ones with the press coming by and people were excited and Ono actually won the innovation award of that particular show. But the response from the retailers, wasn’t what we had expected. So they were very nervous to take on these new brands. And I’m just wondering in the last couple of years, since I had that experience, how is the market responding or the retail market responding to innovations like this that are sustainably minded in the pet space?

[00:11:09] Katherine Ellison: Yeah, there’s definitely been a shift. There are large key retailers who have made commitments to sustainability, like Petco. They made a statement earlier this year that they wanted 50% or more of their products to be sustainable. I believe by 2025. And so that’s a really strong statement from a very key player in the marketplace saying we understand the importance of sustainability when it comes to our pets.

We want to support sustainable companies. We will not have stock sustainable products because that’s what our consumers are asking for. And that’s what is the right thing to do? And so would we go and talk to retailers, we’re able to tell them about our sustainability mission, which oftentimes lines up with their own goals and it makes the transition easier for them to say, Hey, yes, we are going to take in your products because you are aligned with our goals and our vision for the type of products we want to stock. And that’s because the consumers are asking for it. We know that especially the younger consumers are willing to spend more money on sustainable products. And if they can find those unique, sustainable products at a retailer, like Pet Co. That gets them in the door and makes that retailer much more competitive.

So I think that there’s been a ton of really wonderful innovation. Both on the consumable side as well on the hard goods side, as it relates to sustainability, there are great plant-based and sustainable food choices for our pets now. You mentioned insect protein. That’s a huge sustainability play that is becoming much more mainstream.

We’re also seeing hard, good companies using recyclable plastics to make things like toys. And. Even clothing and things of that nature. So, there’s a huge opportunity for startups right now who are really able to make those innovative products and find a market for it. Potentially first, find that market online and then bring that into retail and partner with these retailers that are looking for sustainable products.

We started our company online. We actually started with a Kickstarter, to help fund our first production run. And we raised $10,000. We were able to take pre-orders and then ship out for our first production run. We do have a presence on Amazon and we do sell direct to consumer. That is part of our strategy, but our strategy always first has been to be at retail. We feel like there is a huge opportunity to bring plant-based options to pet specialty stores, as well as to bring plant-based options for our dogs to stores where we, as humans are buying our own plant-based meat. So our goal is to be in pet specialty stores where that consumer is looking for those unique products that meet maybe some, demands that their pets need, like allergen-friendly, low-calorie, things of that nature. But then also we want to be at grocery stores so that you can go buy your impossible burger and then you can go over to the pet aisle and you can also find a treat for your dogs that is a similar type of product. We do feel like there’s a huge opportunity for us online as well, especially to reach our target customer. So we’ll continue to grow that portion of our business as well.

[00:14:39] Jennifer Chua: You began to look into creating dog treats and you began to really explore the pet industry with kind of a different lens, now that you were going into this as a business owner. Could you tell me about the day that you realized that our conventional pet treats might’ve been, less than ideal? Why did you choose to do the a hundred percent plant-based route and what motivated this decision?

[00:15:02] Katherine Ellison: A lot of our pet treats today that we feed our dogs are primarily meat-based. So we have on the market, a number of different types of meat-based treats. You can see treats that use, whole meat as the first ingredient, like chicken or beef, or there are a lot of very popular brands that use byproducts and the main purpose of using all of those products is to get a delicious flavour.

The most important thing for me was to figure out how to make a plant-based treat that actually tasted good. And so the way that we could do that is actually by adding in a plant-based flavouring that makes our product taste and smell like meat.

[00:15:43] Jennifer Chua: I’m just super curious. How are you getting that meaty, smoky flavour that is attractive to dogs? How are you getting that with the plant-based product?

[00:15:50] Katherine Ellison: So we work with a flavour supplier and they have a whole team of scientists where they make flavours for both human food and for pet food. And so they have these proprietary formulas and these proprietary methods where they can develop flavours that don’t use any meat. It tastes and smells like meat. They actually keep that very close to them. They actually don’t share some of those secrets. But we do know that all of our flavourings that we use have absolutely no animal products and are fully plant-based. We also have the opportunity with our flavour supplier to create custom flavours that can be unique and special just to Bright Planet. And so that’s something that we’ll be working on in the coming year to come up with some unique, meaty plant-based flavours that haven’t been seen on the market yet.

[00:16:45] Jennifer Chua: Our pets that are enjoying Bright Planet, what are they tasting at this moment? What do you have available?

[00:16:50] Katherine Ellison: We have three flavours available today. We have our better burger, which tastes like a freshly grilled hamburger. We have our better brat was, which tastes like a grilled bratwurst and we have our better barbecue chicken, which tastes like a delicious chicken leg smothered in barbecue sauce. We’re also working on creating a better bacon flavour, which we’ll taste, of course, like the delicious bacon that our dogs absolutely go crazy for.

[00:17:19] Jennifer Chua: And they’re safe enough for human consumption too right?

[00:17:22] Katherine Ellison: We do have a lot of people that like to try our treats to see what they taste like. We often hear responses. Wow, this is actually pretty good, or this actually tastes meatier than other dog treats. I’ve tried. They are made in a pet facility so they’re not human-grade, but they’re made with all-natural, sustainable, healthy ingredients that we recognize and use in our own diets.

[00:17:47] Jennifer Chua: And what are the costs associated with creating something like a pet treat? Like what’s the environmental impact? What do we need to be concerned about? Like you’ve made these choices that are sustainably minded, but what are the costs associated with doing this? If you were just some big company and you’re just not thinking sustainability at all, you’re just creating pet treats.

[00:18:06] Katherine Ellison: There’s a statistic that shows that American dogs and cats eat so much meat, that if they were a country, they would rank fifth in terms of meat consumption. And so the way we choose to feed and treat our pets really does have a big implant impact on carbon emissions, water usage, land usage, and can make a big difference by making small changes.

So our treats at Bright Planet, because they’re plant-based and we use sustainable ingredients. Our treats create 90%, less carbon emissions and use 68% less water than a traditional meat-based treat.

Yeah. it’s really fantastic. Especially just by removing the beef, beef is one of the highest carbon emission ingredients. And so by removing beef, we can really make a big difference. And, when you feed your pet, our Bright Planet treats, they don’t know that they’re not eating that little tiny doggy burger. They really are enjoying that taste and that smell. And you, as the owner are just having that reinforcement that you made a great decision for your dog. You made a great decision for the planet. We talked to some of our core customers about that, and for them, it’s really important that they’re making these sustainable decisions. And a lot of it just goes back to reinforcing their own beliefs and their own values and wanting to be able to have a treat that speaks to those values that they feel good giving their pets. And our treats are full of really healthy, premium ingredients.

We use ingredients like chickpea flour, brown rice, sweet potatoes, and yeast, as a base for our treats. And then we add in those additional flavors to make it taste and smell like meat. So when you compare our treats to some other plant-based treats on the market, our treats are definitely more premium. We use high-quality ingredients. We use ingredients, you can trust, ingredients, you can understand. And so what a lot of times people look at the back of our packaging, they look at it and they’re looking for things to make them not want to buy our treats. They’re looking for things like corn, soy, wheat, canola oil, things like that. And we don’t have any of those in our products. We use coconut oil instead of canola oil. Our treats are great for dogs with allergies and dogs that have sensitive systems sensitive tummies. So they’re really great for all different types of breeds and sizes of dogs.

[00:20:42] Jennifer Chua: So with Bright Planet, you are reducing your pet’s carbon pawprint, which I love that phrase. And you’re helping address climate change concerns. Can you explain a little bit more of what you mean by that phrase?

[00:20:53] Katherine Ellison: If you compare carbon impact of a meat-based treat it’s much higher than the carbon impact of our plant-based treat. So essentially you as a pet owner, have the ability and the opportunity to help reduce your dog’s carbon pawprint by making changes like switching to Bright Planet treats or even, making changes like buying recyclable toys, reusing bags, when you’re ready to pick up your dog’s waste, not buying new plastic bags to pick up your dog’s waste. So there’s a lot of ways that you can reduce your dog’s carbon pawprint and changing the way you treat your pet is just one of them. And so we want to help enable people to do that by treating with our Bright Planet treats.

[00:21:40] Jennifer Chua: Have you made any other decisions in terms of packaging or manufacturing to create meaningful impact?

[00:21:47] Katherine Ellison: Yeah, that’s a great question. So we are based in Bloomington, Minnesota, which is right outside of the twin cities and both our packaging and our treats are manufactured within a 40 mile radius of our headquarters. And so that helps us reduce our overall transportation-related carbon emissions. And in addition, we love to support local companies and family-owned businesses. And so we really do make a conscious effort of which suppliers we’re going to work with and love to choose companies that are local to where we are headquartered. We are quickly transitioning next year into a recyclable bag. So it’ll be a number two recyclable bag that is able to be dropped off at a grocery store or anywhere else that, collects recyclable bags like grocery bags. In addition, whenever we ship our e-commerce orders or ship any of our online orders, we use all recyclable packaging materials. So they’re all padded mailers that just use, paper. You can put them right in your recycling bin.

[00:22:53] Jennifer Chua: I’d love to learn more about this tree planting program that you have. Why did you choose to plant trees? And what does that partnership really look like?

[00:23:01] Katherine Ellison: yeah. So we chose to play at trees because. Our company is really focused on sustainability. Of course, we love our dogs and cats, but there are so many other great organizations that are donating to animal welfare. Right. Our ethos is really sustainability and compounding climate change. And one of the best ways we can do that is by replanting areas of deforestation. And So we have partnered with the Eden reforestation projects. They are a 5 0 1 C3 that’s based in California and they plant all across the world in areas of deforestation and they pay their employees a livable wage. So they actually have a multicomponent mission, which is to lift communities out of poverty and also plant in areas of deforestation.

And so we were really aligned with their mission and what they do. And so we’ve partnered with them. Once a quarter, we tally up exactly how many bags we’ve sold each quarter, and we make a donation. For this year 2021, we’ve been selling our products since March and we’re on track to plant over 15,000 trees this year with Eden.

And next year we’ve really increased our distribution and we’ll be in much more stores. So we really anticipate that we’ll be able to plant even more trees next year. And it’s really a huge part of our message and our organization. We’re really proud of the fact that we’re able to help with these efforts and. Our core customer really understands and appreciates that part of our business. And it really speaks to our customer that again, is really interested in making sustainable choices as a very tangible thing. When you pick up a bag or when you pick up your bag to give your dog treats, you know that like actually one tree has been planted, which is a great trade-off, and it’s just something kind of more physical that people can relate to.

[00:25:03] Jennifer Chua: So back when you were coming up with this idea to create this business and you’re moving it forward into creating an actual business, did you have a point where you went to your husband, your science-minded husband and said, I want to create a pet product. I want it to be focused on sustainability. We want to go vegetarian. Did you have a conversation? Like what did he say? How did that conversation go?

[00:25:28] Katherine Ellison: So he was really open to becoming more of a flexitarian or reducatarian, both for the climate impact, as well as just health implications. We know that it’s healthy for us to eat more fruits and veggies, more legumes, more whole foods. And so he was definitely on board with that. When I approached him and wanted to start a plant-based treat company. He understood the vision and he understood the mission. He was actually the one to come up with the concept of planting a tree every time we sold a bag. And so that was a great idea that he was able to bring to really round out our core values of combating climate change. So he definitely understood the market and he thought it was a great idea.

And certainly, there was a little convincing that needed to happen. We have bootstrapped the company to date. So we have been using our own resources to fund the company. And so it was definitely a joint decision that we had to make as a family to decide to really bet on this idea. And bet that we could be first to market and fast to market. And when we launched it in March, we were the first plant-based treat company that made products that taste and smell like meat. And today we are still the only company that exclusively makes plant-based products. There are other people that have come on the market that are making plant-based treats that tastes like meat, but they also use things like salmon, eggs, other, Meat-based or animal-based proteins in their products. And there are also other brands who have meat-based products that have added plant-based products, but we are still the only a hundred percent plant-based company that is making meaty treats for our dogs. And we also plan to expand into cat as well.

[00:27:20] Jennifer Chua: So you did a Kickstarter and I’m sure you were able to get some feedback there from your customer base or your potential customer base, but when was the moment that you realized this could work?

[00:27:33] Katherine Ellison: We did our Kickstarter. We raised our money. We did our first formulation and we ran our first production. And I received in the first samples. I gave them to my dogs and my dogs absolutely went crazy over them. Like they were begging for more, they were doing tricks. They were really excited about the flavor of the treats. Some of my dogs are picky. Some of them aren’t picky, but just to see that initial reaction from them, Made me think, Hey, I think we have the recipe. Right? And so with our Kickstarter backers, when they would purchase a bag of our treats, we would also send them with a meat-based treat that was kind of similar to ours.

And we sent them home with, testing protocol. So we had them do two different tests. We had them do a first choice test, which is where you put our treats in one bowl and put our competitor treats in another bowl that were, meat-based you take your dog out of the room, you put the treats in the bowls and then you let your dog back in the room and you see what they choose first a number of times to make sure that there weren’t any bowl preferences, some dogs just prefer right bowls some dogs prefer left bowls. So we did that test and we also did just an acceptance test. Simply when you offer a treat to the dog, do they eat it? From our Kickstarter backers, we had over 97% acceptance rate, which means that over 97% of all dogs, when they’re offered our treat, they eat the treat. And then from our first choice test, over 72% of all dogs chose our plant-based treat first over an actual meat-based treat. And that was really exciting for us. The meat-based treat that we are testing with is actually a national brand that has very wide distribution. It’s a burger-flavored treat. And so when we heard that almost three out of four dogs chose our plant-based treat first, we knew that we had the smell right, because dogs make so many decisions based on smells.

And then with our acceptance tests, we knew that we really had that flavour. Because once they were trying our treat, there were wanting to continue eating our treat as well. That’s when we knew we had something that was going to be big. Because if the dogs don’t love your treats, the owner’s not going to go back and buy another bag.

[00:29:54] Jennifer Chua: What other feedback are you getting from your actual customers?

[00:29:59] Katherine Ellison: The number one thing that we hear is just that our dogs are obsessed with your treats. We hear things like our dogs will do their least favourite tricks to, in order to get your treats that they love every single flavour. That we put it on top of their food to encourage them to eat their food. And they gobble it up every single time. That they beg for more. And so that kind of feedback, just that the dogs are really loving the treats is wonderful for us, but more so we also get customers coming to us and saying, thank you for making a product like this, because I’ve been searching for something like this for so long, because maybe that owner is vegan or vegetarian and they want to be able to feed their dog, like they feed themselves. And so now they actually have a sustainable option and they’re excited to see the other products that Bright Planet is going to come out with because they know what’s going to align with their values and their dogs are going to love the taste as well.

Our product and our mission and our brand is really resonating with our target customer who is actually feeding a meat-based diet. Our target customer doesn’t feed beef products because they understand the carbon impact of beef, but they’re feeding like a fish-based diet or a poultry-based diet. And then they just want to have some really yummy treats that they feel good about giving their pets.

[00:31:24] Jennifer Chua: What do you think is the best option in terms of feeding your pet currently with what’s on the market in terms of sustainability?

[00:31:31] Katherine Ellison: There are so many different, great brands on the market. The way we feed our pets is also an extremely personal decision. And so there’s really no right or wrong way to feed your pets, especially from the Bright Planet perspective. We never will ask our customers to exclusively feed plant-based, it’s really just up to them what’s best for their pet and what the best decision is that they make with their veterinarian. We never ask for perfection. We only ask for progress. And small changes, and that really resonates with the people who love our treats. There are great brands on the market like wild earth. They’re a fully plant-based brand.

There’s another brand called Petaluma that they have a baked food that is plant-based, believe it’s a peanut butter flavour. There’s also companies that are trying to use more sustainable protein in their formulas. If you want to feed your dog a meat-based diet, if you look for locally caught fish or locally raised Meat they’re certifying bodies that will certify sustainable seafood. And that is now being used more in pet food. So there’s a lot of things that companies are doing to make even their meat-based products, more sustainable. So there’s really a shift and people are really looking for those types of certifications, if they’re feeding a meat-based diet, or if they feed a plant-based diet, there are so many great brands on the market today as well.

[00:33:02] Jennifer Chua: It says a lot about shifts in consumer behaviour, because even two generations ago, people were feeding their dogs like table scraps or kibble, but nothing special. And now we’re going towards sustainable or certified wild-caught fish. How has the experience of having a pet changed so much that we are now making these decisions about impact and health and everything for our dogs and cats? I just find this so interesting. Do you have anything to comment on that?

[00:33:35] Katherine Ellison: So the humanization of pets has been happening for a long time. We’re treating our pets more like family today than we ever have before. That change has been gradual, but especially with, the millennial generation, the gen Z generation, we are putting off having kids so early and instead people are having dogs. We’re really treating our pets as a member of our family. And because of that, our own values on how we feed ourselves are becoming more important to ourselves on how we feed our pets. And so that humanization trend, I mean, you see it everywhere. You see it in how we feed our dogs, how we dress our dogs, how we board our dogs, some dogs just don’t really just go to the traditional kennel of anymore. We have luxury resorts for dogs because our dogs are so important to us. And our pets are so important to us because they give us such great companionship and love. And so we want to treat them absolutely the best that we can. So that trend has been happening. We, the industry and people who watch trends in the industry, we know that that’s just going to continue to evolve and we’re going to continue to humanize our pets more, which in turn means that we’re going to spend more money on our pets, which is a really important, side of the pet industry.

For each individual pet, the owners are spending more per year than they have in the past. They’re spending more on treats on food, on veterinary care, on toys, all of that. And so that just continues to grow the market size. We also have different types of pet owners coming into the market. Younger pet owners, we have more people of colour that are owning pets. And so the types of people that own pets is actually getting greater. And we have lots more diversity in pet ownership as well. And so the industry will continue to grow and evolve and definitely shows no signs of slowing down and no signs of people reverting back to the way that they used to treat or feed their pets.

We’ll continue to see more innovation. More sustainable products. I mean, some of the exciting things that we have happening in consumables is that we have a number of companies in the pet space that are working on lab-grown meat, which is also something that’s happening in the human food space. And so soon in the pet industry, you’ll be able to buy treats or buy food for your pets, where it isn’t meat, but it’s been growing in a lab and. That’s going to come with a higher price point, but that’s going to also solve an important problem for certain pet owners who are wanting to feed meat to their pets, but they want it to be even more sustainable or humane. Really lab-grown meat is the most humane meat anyone could ever eat or feed their pets. And so there’s a lot of this innovation and a lot of exciting things happening in the industry right now.

[00:36:28] Jennifer Chua: About a decade ago, I worked in an office and one of the guys I worked with would get notifications on his phone. Alice went out for her walk, she really enjoyed her meal this morning. And I remember just thinking that was hysterical and then more so and more so you see these high-end doggy daycares like, you’re speaking about. So definitely we are treating our pets more like family members.

[00:36:54] Katherine Ellison: Yep. for sure. Both of my parents grew up on farms and so, they had a little bit of a different perspective on pets as well. And when we had pets growing up, I mean, they were spoiled rotten of course, but even the way that we treated our pets when I was growing up is very different than the way that I treat my pets today. My pets are my children. They’re our members of our family and their health and wellbeing and happiness is very important to us. And so we do everything that we can to make sure that they’re happy and healthy. That changes the way the products that we want to buy for them and the way that we treat them and all of that.

[00:37:35] Jennifer Chua: So if someone was going to try to make an impact in the pet space, what is a common reason that they might give up or walk away from this?

[00:37:42] Katherine Ellison: I mean, whenever you start a company, there is a monetary side of it that you have to be comfortable with. Especially when you think about creating a sustainable company. So our recyclable packaging is going to cost more than the packaging that we’re using today, but that’s a choice that we’re making.

So actually we will be taking a little bit of a margin hit, but we feel that making the change to a more sustainable packaging will benefit our bottom line down the road and help us gain more customers. So certainly when you think about creating a sustainable company, there are challenges. There are different hurdles. There are also opportunities like being able to be a certified B Corp or have a certification from the pet sustainability coalition that really shows that you’re a sustainable company, but those things also take time and money. And so having the resources to build a sustainable pet company, can be challenging as well.

There are a lot of great opportunities in the pet industry though, that you can take advantage of. This year I participated in the Minnesota cup, which is an entrepreneurship competition that’s put on by the University of Minnesota and we made it to the semi-finals in our division. There are different ways that you can win money. And what we were able to do with the Minnesota cup is we actually won the first evergreen and sustainable chemistry prize. And so that was awarded to us on behalf of the Minnesota pollution control agency. And so we were able to win some cash prizes and cash grants because we are a sustainable company. Also being a female founder. Having our business be women-owned, presents different opportunities for us to be able to apply for different grants and different programs, which we’ve taken advantage of. So while there are certainly challenges, starting a company or starting a sustainable company in the pet space, there’s also incredible opportunities.

And the. pet industry is very friendly. People are staying in the industry for a long time because they love what they do. They care about pets. There’s A lot of great networking opportunities and a lot of people that are really willing to help. And so we’ve been really fortunate to meet a lot of great people that have helped us along in our journey.

[00:40:12] Jennifer Chua: A couple episodes back. We had a chat with Brianna and Kristy from Decade Impact. And they work with B Corp’s or businesses specifically trying to achieve B Corp certification, which is a road that I’ve been going on this entire year. And it’s tremendously difficult. But the interesting thing about B Corp specifically or sustainable businesses is working together is so mutually advantageous, that it just helps lift the sustainability industry up. Are you finding other maybe not B Corp, but other brands in the pet industry in that space that you’ve had the opportunity to collaborate with?

[00:40:48] Katherine Ellison: There are definitely some plant-based brands that we’ve spoken to and we’re able to share mutual information with, there are some great communities of startup companies. So we have a, there’s a handful of great pet care startups in the twin cities that I am networked in with. And so we have a great kind of support system of local companies. I haven’t had as much of a chance to network with other plant-based companies, but really more so just network and find support from other startup founders, other female founders, other local founders, and really find ways that we can support each other and help each other out.

[00:41:29] Jennifer Chua: What about our children? You mentioned before that you’re not a parent of children, but you’re a parent of pets. How do you think that this work that you are doing and this journey that you’re on, how do you think this impacts them?

[00:41:41] Katherine Ellison: Children that are being raised today are going to be raised to be the most conscious generation that we’ve had and they’ll make important decisions, important buying decisions, put important policies in place so that we really can help combat climate change and make our world more sustainable. And so when they see their parents mirroring sustainable behaviour, they’ll be able to do the same and they definitely will understand the impacts and really the younger generation is already having such a voice and speaking out and demanding change and demanding policies. And when we think about how much meat we consume in the world. As I mentioned before, our pets consume so much meat and the younger generation is also going to just continue this trend of pet ownership, pet humanization, wanting sustainable products. And so their choices and their decisions and their voice is going to make such an impact in the way that we choose to nourish our pets, which in turn can better nourish our planet. We want to make these products and build this company and have this company be a nationally recognized CPG brand so that when you go into the store and you say, I want to buy a, plant-based treat, you think of Bright Planet. And that’s really our goal. And our goal is of course to be a profitable company, but we believe That we can be profitable and sustainable and give back and really have a strong message and make the world a better place just by making plant-based treats for pets.

[00:43:17] Jennifer Chua: So if you want to feed your pet, some delicious plant-based treats, where can we find you?

[00:43:23] Katherine Ellison: So in the USA today, you can find our treats on our website, which is brightplanetpet.com. We also sell on Amazon. Next year you will be able to find Bright Planet treats in 500 Pet Co.. You will also be able to find us in Hy-Vee stores in the Midwest. And today we are available in almost 400 Pet Valu stores all across Canada. We have a store locator on our website. You can pop in your zip code and you can find the store closest to you, whether you are in the United States or you’re in Canada.

[00:43:59] Jennifer Chua: And I did use the store finder and I did manage to find some, and my new puppy loves them.

[00:44:05] Katherine Ellison: Oh, wonderful. I’m so glad to hear that.

[00:44:08] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Katherine and her 100% plant-based pet treats visit brightplanetpet.com. In Canada? These sustainable vegan allergy-friendly treats are in-store at your local Pet Valu. You can follow along with Katherine on her mission to save the earth together with your pet one treat at a time on Facebook or Instagram @brightplanetpet

In today’s episode, we chat with Brianna Brown and Kristy O’Leary from Decade Impact. We learn what led each of them to work with purpose-based business, We learn why our actions in the next decade are so critical to the future of our planet, we hear all about what Bcorp is, why businesses become benefit corporations, why green blushing can be as big of an issue as greenwashing, and what to look out for if you are a consumer looking to create impact. By supporting brands committed to social, environmental, and economic change.

If you want to learn more about Kristy, Brianna and how they are helping brands create a better world with Decade impact visit https://www.decadeimpact.com/Looking to learn more about how they can support your impact business with future-focused design thinking, or interested in the Getting to 80 program that uses the Bcorp framework? You can connect with them on Instagram at decadeimpactLook for Brianna and Kristy on Linked In where they are actively contributing to the conversation surrounding how brands can create impact.

Links from this episode

• Decade Impact website
• The Occupy Movement
• Project Drawdown
• All We Can Save by Dr. Katharine K Wilkinson
• Linkedin Kristy O’Leary
• Linkedin Brianna Brown
• Getting to 80 Program

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Chua: Our actions in the next decade will determine the future of life on this planet. This is true for all of us, whether we’re business owners or not, but for people in the impact space, it’s a particularly interesting time as companies and corporations are being called to create a new economy, capable of solving our most complex problems. And creating impact beyond profit. The world is in chaos. There’s mass disruption, economic free fall. Division. And on the heels of all of that climate change, we have no choice, but to seize this moment and create a new world.

I’ve been working with Kristy and Brianna from decade impact for my own business. We’ve been working on purpose design and B Corp readiness. My conversations with them always leave me both nervous. We all should be nervous. But also incredibly inspired.

Because they believe that every company can leave the world better than they found it. Every person deserves to feel the delight of change-making and that absolutely anything is possible. They’re experts in B Corp, we’ll get into what that is in just a bit, and the United Nations, sustainable development goals, which is something you may want to look up if you’re interested in this work.

Kristy and Brianna originally met on Skype. This was in the pre-ZOOM days. And in this post COVID world, video chats are becoming more of a thing. Decade conducts most of their business online now. But at that point, it was harder to form real connections with people you’ve met only virtually. Kristy was hosting a workshop and Brianna was an attendee. But after this workshop, the two formed a bond that would lead them to start decade impact less than two years later.

Brianna had recently graduated from business school with a degree in political science and economics. And she had studied the language of business and had come to understand how those in business think. But Brianna became more and more interested in the social and environmental issues. But the social sector, those trying to make a difference. They were not using the language of business when talking to business. So Brianna saw an opportunity to help break that communication barrier down. But really, Brianna says, she saw how broken the world was and was looking for a way to respond meaningfully.

Brianna Brown: And I don’t know what little voice came into my head, but something came into my head. That business was the best way to solve social and environmental challenges, which seems a little bit counter-intuitive. But when you start to dig down into what the problems are and where the solutions. Business really becomes that place.

Jennifer Chua: So she started out working with social purpose startups, was introduced to B-Corp, 1% for the planet. Moved on to a traditional consulting firm role. And it was during this time that she had that Skype with Kristy. See Kristy was already in it. She was doing the work that Brianna was interested in. Consulting with businesses on social and environmental interests. But this meeting for Brianna was kind of like an aha moment.

Brianna Brown: so I was really grateful too, to find somebody, first of all, who I could just point my finger at and be like, I want that. And then that she was, she took a chance on me and brought me into that circle.

Jennifer Chua: Kristy’s career has been really non-linear. Topsy turvy is the word she uses, but she’s always been interested in business. Having grown up with entrepreneur parents. No, she didn’t go to business school. She has a fine arts degree with a focus on multimedia. But growing up in her family’s businesses, she learned a lot about how small business really operates. She followed her gut and took opportunities to work on projects in a variety of industries, social license campaigning, supply chain, whatever interested her at the time. But when Kristy ended up in advertising, she realized how a business could use messaging to create change.

And she started asking herself, how do you sell things that are better? How do we get people to change their behaviors through art and creativity and campaigning? And she was attracting the kind of companies that she wanted to work with. Those creating a net benefit. And here she was following her gut again, because she didn’t really have a way to screen those companies at the time.

Kristy O’Leary: You know, there are a lot of gut checks.  And so I tend to be pretty stubborn. And so I just stubbornly kept focusing in this space and, and the market shifted and now we’re here.

There weren’t a lot of people to look to that were doing this. And when I, I stepped forward and said like, I’m gonna do impact consulting. I didn’t really have a blueprint for how to do that. And so I used the B Corp certification as that blueprint. I found B Corp and around 2011, 20 12 and thought, Okay. this is answering a lot of my questions.

Jennifer Chua: Why is all of this personally so important to you? Like why is environmental responsibility or social impact, diversity equity, inclusion, any of those? Was there an event that you can remember any moment in your life that has shaped how you see the world this way?

Brianna Brown: I always have such a hard time answering that question. Because I don’t think it was a single event for me. And I always think of that question. Why do you think that way? Why do you think that way? And I, my immediate responses, how can I not think that way? So I’m so stuck in this moment of this is how I see the world. And this is, for a while, how I have seen the world that I find it hard to conceptualize how you could not want to make a bigger purpose through your company than profit. I think that there’s, nothing wrong with making profit if it’s good profit. But there’s it’s a little bit boring to just be in pursuit of profit when there’s so many other things you can do, there’s so much other creativity. So I always try to draw back. I’m like, what are the moments? And I think one of the things that I’ve been thinking about recently, and I don’t know how defining this was, but I mentioned that. Undergrad was in political science and economics. And again like we’re in this time where we’re an unprecedented change.

And so we always think that it’s a very unique and singular moment. But when I was starting at a university, , it was during the occupy movement. And I was studying economics and learning about all of this stuff about how the economy works from this ivory tower of how it works. I was in school in Montreal, so there was a lot of activity on the streets there related to occupy and also all of these other social issues. The economic frameworks that I was being taught just don’t work. And I know that this is a very academic response to your question that this is very theoretical response.

And I’m sure Kristy is laughing, cause that’s just who I am. But that just ignited this huge curiosity in, in, well, what does work and how do we make it work? And if this is broken, how do we fix it? And so I think that there is like an intellectual curiosity behind it. I know that another big driver for me is, I grew up in the outdoors. I grew up in the mountains. I grew up in the forests. So there is that, that gutteral sense when we’re closer to nature, like we want to protect it. But it’s more of a how can we not for me then why do I have this weird focus on impact?

Kristy O’Leary: I think the biggest defining moment for me, I was in either a political science or an economics class. Maybe it was 98, but I was kind of like in my early university and a professor, an old curmudgeon, I believe his name was Elliot Tupper. And he asked us if we understood what the GDP was and we’re like all these kind of younguns and Yeah. we get it. He’s like, no, you don’t know anything. Which I, I kinda love, I feel like that’s why we go to university is to have like old learned people, tell us how it is.

And he said, no, none of, you know what it is, you know, who contributes the most to the GDP. It is a white man in his, in his mid fifties who is going through a divorce. Who just got a buy out from his company and has terminal cancer. That is the person that contributes the most to the GDP. And, I had a moment. I was like, 20 or 21, my father had cancer. Our family business was getting run out of town by Walmart. It was one of those like vertigo moments, like kind of earth shaking, thinking, all the suffering that this time in my family, all the suffering we’re going through and our business is failing. And all these things that were happening were stimulus. This was considered like we’re increasing the GDP. And that was that was a big, like, fuck this. Like, I don’t want to be a part of that system, but then I had no idea how to not be in the system.

And then the other defining moment, I was really lucky after I went to art school, I got to go to Lunenburg, Nova Scotia and talk to centenarians hundred year old folks about climate change. I want a residency to spend a couple of years there. Talking to folks about they’re creating an oral history of climate change and all of the conversations. It was just like, it just kept feeling like a broken record all these hundred year old or 90 year old ladies telling me, cause it was always ladies that wanted to talk you know, what are you going to do? This is real and we’re in trouble and I’m too old to do anything, but you’re young and you can do something. And that was a big defining moment, was having all of those conversations and then releasing that work and nobody paying any attention. And I just thought all these voices are lost. There’s all these. The writing is on the wall. It’s 2006 and the writing is on the wall and why isn’t anyone doing anything?

The environment is changing, but I think my, my kind of passion for environmental action really began through those conversations. Like I was interested in it because I wanted to do that project, but that was just one of those, those kind of realizations that nobody’s gonna, nobody’s gonna do this for us. We have to do it for ourselves. And again, not knowing how to do that, but the GDP and talking to a bunch of old dames about the way the world used to be and the way it can be in the future, where those were the moments. I think for me.

Jennifer Chua: Your business is called decade impact, presumably because we’re focusing on the change that we can create within the next decade. I’d like to talk a little bit more about what impact consulting is and why we should care all of us about creating impact.

Brianna Brown: You’re bang on with why we named ourselves decade impact. I’m glad that you were able to pick up on that. We started the business very late 2019, really launched in 2020 January 1st, or maybe January 3rd, which was the first Monday of the year launched decade impact. And a lot of the, the thinking behind that was exactly what you said. What change can we create in this decade? This is the decade that matters. This is Like many decades will be to come, hopefully. The last decade that we have to really turn the ship around and hopefully we turn it or enough around that, the 2030s are also, we can turn the ship around. We can turn the ship around and we can turn the ship around. But it also pairs with a lot of the sustainability frameworks that were coming out. The United nations, sustainable development goals, are 17 global goals that the signatories the United nations countries signed onto as these are imperative development initiatives. We need to get right by the year 2030. We have the climate crisis and I can talk about the climate crisis for a long time, but I’m just going to say. We need to turn the ship around and there’s a lot of commitments to both 2050, but more and more to 2030. What do we need to do by 2030 to make sure that we are as close to possible on track to a 1.5 degree world and making sure that we’re definitely under two degree temperature rise in line with the climate science.

So there’s these global imperatives. And then there’s also the business imperatives of at least progressive businesses. And I don’t mean progressive in just a, a social or environmental stage, but, but great companies for a century or more, do make 10 year plans and do make these 10 year declarations of what they want to accomplish. So it kind of fit in from both a corporate and science and development lens. We started january, 2020. We did not know what was going to happen. The climate crisis by the end of 2019 was like the word. Well, it, climate emergency was the word of the year. At the end of 2019 Gretta was everybody’s icon. We saw all of this momentum and then we started thinking that this momentum was just going to continue.

Kristy O’Leary: Brianna, you cracked me up. You’re awesome. And you are so academic in your responses that I’m, I’m always impressed. I just think like we are in the most important decade in human history. And if we don’t change our ways, we’re in serious, serious trouble. The old lady said it, they all said it like the, the, the writing’s on the wall and we’re in very deep shit if we don’t change our ways. And that’s just how it is. And looking at that, and the reality of we have tons of work to do. I think it’s actually really exciting and empowering. I don’t look at it like all is lost. I love an underdog story, and I think we’re all kind of underdogs Right. now. And so the idea that we can all have this montage and be these kinds of superheroes and like dorky accountants, not all accountants are dorky. Some of you are, I’m a dork too. But we’re the ones that can really change the world. And so you don’t need a Cape, you need, a credit card and a business. Those are ways to make a lot of change. And as Brianna said, we have always had lofty ideas. We did not envision a global pandemic coming our way.

Brianna Brown: That was not in our business.

Kristy O’Leary: It wasn’t in our business plan, but our business is perfect for a pandemic. And I know that it’s been really hard on so many folks, and I’m thankful every day that, that the pandemic created the opportunity for us to work hard enough to thrive because it didn’t happen by accident. It happened because we worked really hard. But this kind of shock to the system, I think is exactly what we needed. And it has created this build back better movement. Now how impact consulting plays into that? I think, we’re perfectly positioned because now we know that we can change the world really quickly. We can turn the global economy off and turn it back on in a matter of weeks. And so what are we going to turn on? How are we going to, where are we going to focus our energy? And I think that this all bets are off existence we have, like reality we live in, is the perfect foundation for, for the work we do. Because we are very future-focused and we’re not thinking about like, let’s make some incremental change. We’re focused on how do we become regenerative businesses. And so, although the pandemic has been really painful it’s also extremely motivating and has created this, this foundation for folks to really change the way they think about their agency and what they’re capable of achieving.

Sometimes as, as business people, we have to do things sometimes that we don’t love to do. That’s a part of the, the, our lives. But if we can just change the way people look at their businesses, it’s not only a process that can help help us thrive as a community and work to save the environment and, and fight social injustice. I think the results we deliver, we deliver a personal experience that folks are having. They’re not just thinking about their business, I think. and Jen, as, as being someone that has worked with us in the past, I like to think that the work goes home. It’s one of those things. People are really happy to take home because it’s helping to reframe a lot of the, the things, the questions, the decisions we make every single day.

Brianna Brown: And impact consulting. There’s a few different dimensions to it. I think it’s most similar to strategy consulting. So, management consulting and strategy consulting and setting a strategy then going out and implementing it. But it’s focused on the social and environmental change that you can create as a business. What decade does is we help firms define, measure, manage, and communicate their impact. The defined piece, I think, is the critical foundation to this work. What are you in business to do? And we sometimes define this as corporate imagination which is Kristy-O-Learyism corporate imagination of creating that space to be a little bit more expansive and creative and giving ourselves permission to say the stuff that we wouldn’t naturally say about business. Because we compartmentalize in our own minds about what business can and should do.

That limits us as entrepreneurs. That limits us as an economy, that limits us as a society. When we can open up our minds about what a business can and should be. We’re getting ourselves more in touch with who we are as individuals. Kristy and I are not going in and saying, you should do this new thing that is completely unrelated to your business that you’ve never thought about before. We’re often giving the space for those little ideas that an entrepreneur or founder or leader has had in the back of their head. And maybe maybe had another internal voice saying, well no. Business, doesn’t do that. Or you’re not going to succeed in the market with that. That’s not where you should go.

And we create the space to say, well, how might we, what would that look like if we were able to go out there and do that. Ignite this This, collective response, all of our stakeholders getting on board and saying, this is where I want to go to. That’s where we start to see these like lasting legacy businesses. The example everyone goes to, and it’s a great example is Patagonia. That’s why people like Patagonia. Because they put that vision out there and they go after it and they’re authentic towards it. So that’s that defined piece and that’s the foundational piece. And then we help firms measure and manage their impact.

So they’re not just talking about what they’d like to do. We’re saying, well, what can you do to get a roadmap together, to go out there? We use a few different tools to get to that point. The B Corp assessment is the dominant tool that we’re using as this way of linking all aspects of your operations with social and environmental consideration.

I heard. B court being described as ESG plus purpose. I don’t know who originally coined that, but I’m going to give the credit to Carla Heim at the BDC, the senior advisor of social entrepreneurship, and really leader of the B Corp movement here in Canada. That’s the first time I heard that term is ESG, which is environmental, social, and governance plus purpose.

So metrics, and then the purpose of, of going a little bit broader. And then finally after we measure and manage, we’re looking at well, how do we make this matter going to communication? And I love that Kristy talked about her communication background at the beginning because it kind of goes full circle we’re not starting with communication. We’re not starting with spinning a better story. We’re starting with being a better company, but once you’ve done that work shout it loud.

Jennifer Chua: Can you chat a little bit about how you talk about green blushing? Cause I think this is tied in a lot.

Kristy O’Leary: Everybody’s familiar with greenwashing presenting yourself as an environmentally or socially progressive company and just not doing the work. And I think less often folks are familiar with the concept of green blushing and green blushing. It’s happening all the time. It’s all around us. To me, I think it’s a really insidious problem. We really, really need companies to step forward and communicate what they’re doing. And so green blushers are those folks that are doing the work. They’re not communicating it because they haven’t achieved. Perfect. You know, hot tip, perfect. Doesn’t exist. It’s not real. Perfect. As a showstopper, as we say. And so really green blushing is the challenge. I think getting over green blushing is a huge challenge for social purpose companies. Getting past yourself and past perfection and communicating what you’re doing.

I think actually the antidote to, to green blushing is this idea that I’ve been thinking about a lot. I’m talking with folks a lot about becoming a documentary brand. Rather than you do a campaign, you have a tagline, these kind of disconnected pieces. If you look at a brand like Brianna had mentioned Patagonia they are, they are not green blushing. They are talking, they’re telling every, every one of those stakeholders, what they’re up to how they’re doing it and when they fail. We because we really need to communicate those failures. Or those course corrections rather than failures.

In my mind, I envision a perfect world as a world full of documentary brands that are focused on that tenure, the long game, rather than looking for these tiny little sustainability wins that they can slap on a truck and go to town. This is a totally different mindset. This is integrating impact into the business, communicating all elements of, of what a company is doing. And then really being in there for the long haul. I, I often mentioned game of Thrones. People waited 10 years to see the finale. Our society. We are storytellers. We are, we are we are mainlining stories all the time. That brings us as humans, joy it’s in our DNA. Those green blushers just need to become those documentary brands, communicate those small pieces of progress, those little wins and always in line with that grand vision of a really audacious goal that that companies are trying to achieve.

Jennifer Chua: Conscious consumerism is a term that’s become very popular in this space. And to me, conscious consumerism is about buying from businesses that share my values and that are here to support the change that I’d like to see in the world, for example. But I’d love to hear your thoughts on conscious consumerism. Like is it possible and how do we identify what brands we can trust?

Kristy O’Leary: I’m going to say conscious consumerism is possible. I do it. Brianna does it. You do it. And really it’s just being more intentional and more mindful and kind of developing your own impact strategy as an individual. What are my values? Do I wanna buy from BIPOC businesses? Do I wanna buy from businesses that are really leaning in on environment? Like you define your own, what matters to you? And then shop based on those criteria, green blushers are causing a problem for conscious consumers, because if consumers don’t know what you’re up to, then they can’t support you. And so I think that the green blushing challenge it’s not just a challenge for those companies, it’s a huge challenge for consumers that really want to take action and just don’t know how. So I think looking for the B Corp logo, looking for a 1% logo, organic, non GMO, there’s all kinds of certifications.

I’ve been very pleased to see Uber and Lyft step forward in Texas saying they’re going to cover the legal costs for any of their drivers. I was really excited to see Bumble give a ton of money to planned parenthood. And then actually Tinder went even further with their commitment to supporting women’s reproductive rights in their approach. These are the kind of vignettes we see in the news that I think people should be really paying attention to.

Brianna Brown: One of the things I’d like to add on, on green blushing before also talking a little bit more about conscious consumerism is Kristy and I went to a talk a couple of months ago by Dr. Katherine Wilkinson, who was one of the editors of project drawdown the most amazing resource for mapping and solutions to the climate crisis. Really encourage your listeners to look at drawdown as well as her new initiative. All we can save, which is highlighting women and BIPOC leaders of the climate crisis and, and highlighting those voices. So just a really amazing leader. And she talked about this concept of raising the bar and setting the pace of what it means to be a pace setter. And I think that’s really, really critical in, in this conversation about putting your voice out there and taking a stance. When Lyft is putting their voice out there and saying this is an unjust law. We’re going to take a stand. They create that space for, this is what you need to do to be in this space.

And then Uber will come along and say, I’m going to compete with you on this. And I’m going to compete with you on this and they’re like competing on, on the best commitments, which is where I want to see competition. I want to see people raising that bar and raising that bar and saying, oh, you’re doing this well, we’ll look how much I’m giving back to community and look how much I’m giving back to community.

You know, Lyft and Uber are not perfect companies. But on this topic, they’re looking at how do they raise the bar? And I’m sure that the people who are making that decision had a little bit of uncertainty from a business perspective, what would this do as a business when they make this huge, very quote unquote political? Cause I don’t think it should be political to allow women a choice. But this very political decision that makes you scared as a business owner, but that is following values and doing the right thing. It feels risky as a business, but it’s not. It’s risky to not follow those values and to not do the right thing.

Kristy O’Leary: And I think for all businesses, anybody listening to the podcast, if you’re about to step forward with some messaging and you feel confident and you are sleeping easy. You’re probably not going far enough. If you’re not sweating a little bit over your commitments and the stand you’re about to take, then you probably haven’t tried hard enough. Growth is uncomfortable. One thing that I feel is clear when we’re dealing with our clients and our participants in our programs is that discomfort is just, it’s the name of the game. And, that’s that space that, that uncomfortable space provides all kinds of opportunity for growth and innovation.

Brianna Brown: It’s also uncomfortable to not change. Like it feels more immediately uncomfortable to, to change and put yourself out there. I, I kind of think about the image of the ostrich with the head in the sand, that might feel safe while your head is in the sand, but that is a very uncomfortable and vulnerable position to be. And when you take your head out, you’re going to see that it’s an uncomfortable space. It kind of goes back to another word that Kristy brought up earlier, agency. And we can be uncomfortable and have agency and direction about where we’re going and really exercise that choice. Or we can be uncomfortable and not have agency. We’re kind of at a place now where it’s an uncomfortable world, but we can lean into that discomfort and shape a better world. And that’s something that really inspires me and gets me going, because we have the amazing honor to be working with clients all the time who are stepping into that hopeful future. So I very much live in a bubble where I see solutions all the time. And so solutions are outthere. Sometimes they’re not super obvious, but solutions, are everywhere. Once you start looking.

Kristy O’Leary: it’s, where’s Waldo. It’s just, where’s Waldo. Like once you know what he looks like and you see that little hat you’re going to find Waldo. And so now I feel like that’s what, that’s one of the outcomes of the work we do is. It’s like, we give them like the, like the Rosetta stone of impact and they can start to see it in all its forms and how it’s showing up and they can connect the dots. They can see through the matrix, like there’s this richness that they get to have a richer experience as business owners, as consumers. I, and I just think it’s all really exciting. I think that the, the truth is the world’s going to get more uncomfortable. Do you want to be a leaf in the river? Do you want to be the river? Like there’s these choices we have to make. And I hope everybody gets excited about leaving it better than they found it, and we don’t need everybody to change. We just need that 10% of people. That are going to change. That are going to drive policy change and really lead. We don’t need everybody to agree with us, which is incredible.

Jennifer Chua: All of us at some point have come across the B Corp logo on a brand’s packaging or on a website and as conscious business owners, maybe we’ve heard about B Corp within our entrepreneurship communities, but as consumers, I find that I still get asked a lot. When I’m speaking about B Corp certification, what B Corp is or what it stands for. What is B Corp exactly? Because I think a lot of people still don’t understand

Brianna Brown: B Corp is a certification that applies to the business. So there’s a lot of certifications, maybe organic or fair trade or non-GMO that are for a specific product or production process. That’s looking at just how one ingredient or one product is made. B Corp is similar to that, but it’s looking at the entire way your business operates. It’s an assessment that looks at your governance, how you’re set up, your workers, how you protect the health of your employees and your team, how you contribute to your community, your environment, and your customers. So it’s looking holistically at all operations at all parts of, of your business. How are you considering people and planet?

So that’s sort of like what the assessment does. The tagline, which I think is really, really true is using business as a force for good. So it’s looking at all of these different ways that we can use our business as a force for good. And I think that that is part of the reason why it’s a little bit confusing is because organic looks at one thing, fair trade looks at one thing. B Corp, because it’s looking at all of these different things. It can be hard to say what exactly it means for you. Cause there’s different paths to the summit. There’s different ways to be an impactful company.

Sometimes it’s through workers, sometimes it’s through community. Sometimes through environment, B Corps asks you questions on every single element of that. And then you have to obtain 80 points. It’s a scored assessment. So 80 points is the, the bar you have to meet to become a B Corp. A traditional company might score around 40 points in the assessment, a company that has a CSR corporate social responsibility might be around 60 points. So 80 is a, is a really high bar, but it’s hard to see that it’s hard to communicate that. So I understand when there’s a little bit of uncertainty about what it means because it’s holistic and it’s looking at, at the entire business.

Kristy O’Leary: I kind of get excited when folks don’t know anything about B Corp, because you get to share like the best kept secret. Guess what? There’s a way that you, as a consumer. Can really reclaim your citizenship through how you spend. I think that’s one of those, one of those opportunities to tell a great story to kind of start to change their, their understanding or their personal narrative about how they buy. Cause like really so many folks, I hear it all the time. They’re like, oh, corporations are evil. I had this conversation just about a week ago. All of a sudden someone said something about capitalism. And then there was this pile on about how companies are bad and that’s all there is to it. And I was like, whoa, but what if they do good things? And it just ignited this whole conversation I got to share with a bunch of really intelligent folks that like, there is a better way. And so when people don’t know about it, don’t be discouraged. Just feel like you get to be that person that opened their mind to this movement.

Brianna Brown: I also like to add the companies might be evil. Companies might be good. Companies are our vehicle, but companies are made out of people. And those people behind them have values people behind them are people like you, Jen and Kristy and myself and all of the listeners. We’re all people behind those companies. And when we can allow companies, which is some of the work we do, we allow companies to get closer in touch with their humanity. What can our businesses achieve?

Jennifer Chua: If you do stumble across a business that has a B Corp logo, you can be somewhat sure, really, that this company is committed to, Jedi principles. They are committed to treating their communities well, they’re giving back, they’re maybe making better decisions in terms of environmental impacts. I’m wondering how stringent the certification is. Like how difficult is it for brands to go through that process? How do we know that this is legit? Like how difficult is this for the brand to actually get that certification and put it there on their product?

Brianna Brown: the B Corp movement is poweredourby a questionnaire called the B impact assessment. There have been well over a hundred thousand users of that tool. There are 4,000 certified B Corp’s. Of all the people taking this assessment. 3 to 4% become B Corp certified. Now not every single person who opens up the assessment ultimately is seeking certification, but that is a pretty significant piece. Another stat , that we heard about more recently is once you go through the assessment, you say, I’ve, self-assessed myself. I have above 80 points. I’m going to submit this, of all the submissions, 2/3, get their points knocked down when the third party is looking for that verification and are not above 80 points at that time. And I found that shocking when we heard that, because all of the companies that we’re working with when they submit they’re kind of prepared and they’re getting certified at the end because we’ve done really deep work with them. So I found that shocking, but even after people submit the difference between their self assessment and that third-party assessment, only about a third of those are actually going through to certification. So I think that those two numbers there, that 3% number, three to 4% ultimately getting certified. And then that only a third after you submit for certification, this is a big deal. And I also want to say there’s immense value to going through that assessment, even if you’re not at the point where you’re ultimately going to be able to certify, because you can’t like when you go through those questions, when you get to places that are a little uncomfortable, maybe you’re in the worker section. You’re like our workers practice actually aren’t that great. It forces you to ask those questions and you could just say, no, you could just be like, oh, I don’t have that. I don’t have that. But most people say, Hmm, kind of want to improve? What would it look like to improve.

It’s really valuable if you’re at a place where you’re ready to certify when you have all of those practices in place, but it’s also valuable as a roadmap to start to make that first step towards being a better company. And maybe in, maybe you’re going to be ready to certify today. Maybe you’re going to be ready to certify in 10 years, but either way there’s these opportunities you can do to build better practices into your business progress over perfection. We don’t need everybody to be a B Corp. We do need more people thinking about how they can be better businesses.

Jennifer Chua: so in the next decade, do you think that we’re going to find registered B Corp’s on every shelf in every home? Like, do you think that this movement has that kind of momentum?

Kristy O’Leary: absolutely,

Brianna Brown: I bet you already have some on your shelf,

Kristy O’Leary: for sure. Every everybody, but honestly, so many people do and they don’t know it. I think that when a consumer encounters that B corp symbol, that logo they can rest assured that a company has gone through an extremely uncomfortable process. And even though that company is not perfect because nobody is, no company is, they’ve asked themselves really challenging questions. And so you may not know the details as a consumer, but you could rest assured that they have gone through the most rigorous business certification in the world. At least from an environmental and social perspective from that ESG plus purpose perspective. And so I hope if consumers want to dig in and really understand how the assessment works, there’s lots of resources to do that. But life is busy. You have to go grocery shopping, you have an aging parent. There’s a, you know, that little thing called a pandemic, there’s a lot going on. And so I think that the B Corp logo is a way to make it really easy for consumers. Okay. They ask the questions they’re trying harder. And just that act of awareness is as revolutionary for companies. So I know a lot of B Corp’s wouldn’t communicate what they do as revolutionary necessarily, but that going through that process of voluntarily going through that process is revolutionary

Jennifer Chua: Maybe you do own a business, but maybe you don’t and you still want to support companies that have this vision for the future that is placing people in planet over profit. So what is the best way that either group can affect change?

Brianna Brown: When you don’t own a business, I’ve always been curious about the multiple identities we hold. So we hold an identity as a citizen where we can go out and vote and we can call our elected officials to account. There is a vote coming up. We’re not gonna, we won’t talk about it too much, but going out and voting for your values, that’s something you can do as a citizen. As a consumer, we talked about conscious consumerism and looking for those logos and also asking questions. When you’re in the position to ask questions of your grocery store or at the farmer’s market or where you are about, where did this come from? You might have an identity as an investor where you’re looking at where your investments are, where your money is what bank you bank with. You might be having an identity. As a worker asking your employer, what they’re doing driving change from within. Change doesn’t come overnight. Change comes because somebody has been asked that one extra time what are you doing for community? What are you doing for environment?

In all of those identities being asked that question, and then for some of us, we have an identity as a business owner where we have this opportunity to, to build all of these practices into our business. But I think it’s just helpful to think of ourselves with all of our different conflicting identities, maybe we’re in a parents group or community group where we’re talking with our like-minded parents about what we’re thinking about and all of these conversations, they seem really small and they are small. But they build into something really big when we have all of these people talking and asking questions and sharing what they’re interested in and sharing what their values are.

Kristy O’Leary: For consumers, I think build your personal screening, build your economic screen. How can you exercise your values when every time you, you spend money and make it easy, make yourself a cheat sheet, right. And actually stick to it. And it’s really hard because sometimes I want to buy jeans that I know aren’t waterless or this or that. You know what I mean? We all have to make, make our own decisions, but just kind of have a talk with yourself and decide what you want to invest in every time you spend a dollar. and I think from a company perspective, I really think open up the B Corp assessment. It’s a big task, but just approach it one question at a time and start asking yourself those questions.

And inevitably, every entrepreneur opens it and they’re like, oh no, we don’t know. Okay. Oh, no, we don’t do that. And just turn every know into a how and a why. Well, why would we do this? Why does it make sense for our business? And then how would we implement it? And how can that take shape in our business? And I think that act of asking yourself voluntarily asking yourself these challenging questions. It may not feel like you’re Rocky running up those stairs, but that’s kind of what you’re doing. Put on a montage, get some, some power ballads in the background and start thinking about what your superpower is going to be.

Brianna Brown: Also think about decade. Not the company, the concept. Or you can think about the company. Who do you want to be in 2030? Who do you want to be in 10 years? Who do you want to be in 2050? Who do you want to be in 30 years? Really just sit in that space of what might my business look like in 10 years? And what do I want it to look like? Get a little bit uncomfortable about the darkness, but also spend a lot of time just, just dreaming about how good might we be. How could we contribute to something bigger than ourselves? How can we think about people? How can we think about planet? And I think just bringing those questions and who do we want to be in 10 years? 10 years is a great timeframe because we’re freed from the everyday constraints that are telling us. No, no, no. We get to just sit in that space and say, what could we be and give yourself that space. That’s what entrepreneurs are always missing is time and space, but carve out a couple hours, carve out one hour and just think about who do I want to be in 2030? Share with your team. Share with your team, what you thought about. And you’re going to find people who are stoked about that vision and want to help you get there.

Jennifer Chua: Or your friends, family, or members of your social circle as well, because maybe they have some ideas and had to do something with you. Has working in this space, have you come across anything that’s been really surprising? Like, has there been a piece of knowledge that you’ve learned from working with someone or an experience that has been really surprising or has changed how you see the world in some way?

Brianna Brown: almost every day Kristy will sometimes bring up a great Disney quote. It’s kind of fun to do the impossible. And when you start talking with people about those big questions that I just mentioned, you’re starting to get into impossible territory. And then people will say stuff all the time that are just like, I want to do this. I want to go after this. I’m going to solve like the housing crisis or I’m going to solve food insecurity issues in my, in my little area. And then they start doing it. And although I’ve been working in this space for a while, and although that’s exactly the result that I want to happen and I know can happen, it surprises and delights me every single time.

And I know we talked about a lot of dark things in this podcast. Or we started getting into a lot of the uncertainty and, and discomfort. But you can see with Kristy and I were so excited, we just get, we get to see people start to do the impossible and go after it and see what happens. And that, that delights me every single time.

Kristy O’Leary: I am really excited when I think about the future. I think we have a lot of work to do. Yeah, I think we have a lot of work to do. I also think that we can find that kind of blissful productivity. And we have an opportunity right now, to really all of us to feel this deep purpose. Because it’s not just one issue. It’s not just about the environment. It’s everything all at once. Everything is coming down at once. And so we really sit at the precipice of building a new economy and, and adjusted inclusive society. And so I understand that the reality of making that happen is, is, is a lot of work.

Brianna Brown: We believe every business can leave the world better than they found it. Every person deserves to feel the delight of change-making and absolutely anything is possible.

Kristy O’Leary: And I think that’s it. We have to all accept, or the two and a half percent of people that we need to change the world have to accept that this is on us and not be angry and not be upset with those that aren’t walking that path. Right? Like, don’t be divisive. Folks are too busy. Their mom has cancer. They have stuff going on. They don’t have the emotional capacity to do this work. We do. And there’s lots of other people that are, and, and I just think it’s incredibly exciting. Again, I always bring it back to like the montage. It’s kind of fun and Disney, it’s kind of fun to do the impossible. So I don’t know what the future holds. I know what I’m going to do. I know what Brianna and I are doing, and I hope that other entrepreneurs and consumers in their own way, join us either by working with us by building that personal screening as a consumer. Yeah, I think that the future is exactly what we decide it’s going to be

Jennifer Chua: So I’ve worked with you with my business, hip mommies, and gone through the getting to 80 program. So if anyone who’s listening to this episode right now wants to hear more about my experience. I invite you to reach out to me and I will give you kind of the inside scoop. If you are a business and you are interested in exploring B Corp, how can decade impact, how can the two of you best support a business owner who is looking for that next step?

Kristy O’Leary: I think it all starts with an initial conversation. We talked to almost every person that does our program before the program starts. Our getting to 80 program, which is a cohort program, which we have cohorts launching on the 28th of September and the 5th of October for Canadian companies this year. It all starts with that conversation because every case is so different. Every business is you are all unique snowflakes. And every business is different and really understand what your needs are and, and what your capacity is and where you’re at in that journey. Are you gonna, are you going to jump off the cliff with us or you want to stick your toes in the water? And once we understand what you’re ready to do, then we can build an approach. We can help you build an approach. I think we’re always happy to talk to folks regardless of where they are in their journey, it takes all kinds.

Brianna Brown: And there’s two main ways that we work with companies with lots of flexibility in each one, we have the getting to 80 program, which is really designed for small businesses. It’s a B Corp readiness and purpose exploration program, six sessions that you’re doing together with other small business owners. So you’re in a cohort with other small business owners going through the nuts and bolts of the B Corp assessment, as well as making it meaningful to you. The other way that we work with businesses is one-on-one. So doing deep dives into your business what we like doing is team-based workshops. So we’re creating Eureka moments as a team, creating the momentum within your company, creating this shared literacy. Where you’re going and how you can get there. There’s many paths to the summit. So we’re very flexible with that approach.

Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Kristy, Brianna, and how they’re helping brands create a better world with Decade impact. Visit decadeimpact.com. Looking to learn more about how they can support your impact business with future focused design thinking. Or if you’re interested in the getting to 80 program that uses the B Corp framework, you can connect with them on Instagram @decadeimpact. Look for Brianna and Kristy on LinkedIn, where they’re actively contributing to the conversation surrounding how brands can do better.

In today’s episode, we chat with Alain Menard from The Green Beaver Company. We explore why Alain, a microbiologist, and his wife Karen, a biochemist, left their careers in the pharmaceutical and pesticide industries after deciding to start a family and being sidelined by a surprising diagnosis. We do a deep dive into natural and conventional sunscreens, antiperspirants and toothpaste, learn what the differences are, learn why there have been recalls and what the health impacts of our choices may be. And discover why after 20 years of revolutionizing the industry and engaging with his customers, Alain feels so hopeful for our future.

If you want to Learn more about Alain and his Certified Organic & Cruelty-free Personal Care Products visit https://greenbeaver.com.  Looking to try Alain’s revolutionary antiperspirant or toothpaste that uses the benefits of science? You can find both in retailers across Canada. You can follow along with Alain on his mission to inspire a natural way of life in a more sustainable world on Facebook  or Instagram

Links from this episode

• Allegations Banana Boat sunscreen causes burns continue to pour in to Health Canada
• Hawai‘i Senate Bill Bans Harmful Sunscreen Chemicals
• Lavender Products Associated With Premature Thelarche and Prepubertal Gynecomastia: Case Reports and Endocrine-Disrupting Chemical Activities

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Myers Chua: If you’re a user of antiperspirants take a look and see if yours has a warning label. If you bought it at the drug store, chances are it has one. With a warning about kidney disease. We’ll go into why that’s there in a bit, we’ll also go into antiperspirants and aluminum. This is something you might’ve heard of. And there has been studies showing aluminum in the brains of patients with Alzheimer’s. It’s been linked to cancer, and it’s a reason that a lot of people have switched their deodorants. Natural deodorants are kind of the gateway into natural personal care.

And a lot of us know there may be things in our household products that we rather avoid. But natural products do not always work like we expect them to. And Alain and his team at The Green Beaver Company have been formulating products backed by a tremendous amount of scientific research. So while natural products are often unregulated, The Green Beaver Company is backed by science, certified with ECOCERT and working closely with health Canada to create new and truly innovative products that work as good as conventional without causing harm.

And over the last 20 years, Alain has seen a dramatic shift in consumer behavior. People are asking questions. They are looking for natural alternatives and Alain has been a huge part of this shift. He’s incredibly influential. Many of green Beaver’s products were first to market in their category, and ever advocates, the green beaver company has been fighting for transparency and regulation in the industry and strives to use the cleanest ingredients sourced locally.

Alain lives in Hawkesbury, Ontario near the Quebec, Ontario border. And its where nearly 20 years ago that he started the green beaver company with his wife karen. Before green beaver, Alain was a microbiologist. Karen was a biochemist working in pesticides. Alain had gotten into microbiology because of the science of food. Making cheese, beer, that kind of stuff. And afterwards he took this education into pharmaceuticals, working with antibiotics. He was spending his days in hospitals, meeting with doctors and pharmacists telling him about new antibiotic products, how they worked, what the effectiveness was. And Karen was also a medical liaison working with the latest studies presenting data to healthcare professionals. And after a while, things began to change because they began to change. They both felt compelled to do something else.

See, they had begun to talk about starting a family, trying to decide if they were ready, if it was the right time, trying to figure out where they could put a nursery. But once Karen really started considering having a child, she began to look into the chemicals they were using in their home because she was picturing her child crawling across a floor washed with conventional cleaners and putting their baby hands in their mouth. Was she okay with that? With what she knew about chemicals? So Alain and Karen began to take a hard look at everything within their home cleaning products, personal care. And it was overwhelming.

Alain Ménard : Everything is like artificial fragrance and chemical, this for washing clothes, dish washing soap. You name it, then you start getting into, well, what exactly is in my shampoo or my antiperspirant, then it gets to be like, Yeah, we were going a little bit bonkers with this, and of course. with both of our science background, I mean, and with a bit of more research. We kind of figured out what all these products had in him and this, and then you start thinking, this is our nest we live here, we breathe here, we eat here, you’re, you’re breathing the air. You’re like, how Can it be every week importing chemicals from the outside to bring in to the inside and to spray it where I’m going to breathe, eat, sleep, then it’s like, yeah, why do we do that? How did we get here? How did society did we get to do that? How did we get to like, figure out, we can, it increased our yield of a crop by 30% by putting chemicals on it. The insecticides. Yeah. There’ll be some left. We’ll be eating a little, bit of it, but it’s not the end of the world. We’ll get, be getting 30% more yield. Oh my God. And I feel like, If you look back 19 years ago when it was when we first introduced our product, the world has changed. There’s a lot more knowledge about everything that’s going on about, pollution and climate change and everything.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Karen was really grappling with her identity as a biochemist. She was working in pesticides during the day. And then purging her home of chemicals on nights and weekends. It was like leading a double life and it was beginning to eat at her, so much so, she couldn’t do it anymore and she quit.

And by that time already, a portion of the kitchen counter was covered in mixers and beakers and equipment. And the two began to dabble in making products as a hobby. Something for Karen to focus on now that she was unemployed. An avid cook. She loved it. Cause making face cream is similar to making mayonnaise, Alain points out, they are both emulsions. And back in those days, there were not very many natural products available. The health food stores had a small selection, but natural products were much more difficult to find. So Alain began to experiment too thinking he’d use his expertise to help formulate products on evenings and weekends. And see where this leads to, but he had no plans on quitting his job.

Alain Ménard : And by that time, oh boy, I was changed. It was there wasn’t any more chemicals in the house and making it a lot of our own stuff and went organic. And as much as we could, it’s be honest, it’s because in those days it wasn’t as much available as today. And yeah, we got into gardening. I remember that had our first garden around that time.

Jennifer Myers Chua: But soon afterwards, Alain got a call. That changed everything.

Alain Ménard : So then I got a call from my sister. My oldest nephew, Miguel was three years old and the twin boys a year and a half. So three boys under the age of. Equates to very busy, tired. And anyway, she was very upset. Then she sadly announced to me that she had just been diagnosed with very advanced breast cancer. And this is at 32 years old, i mean come on. And I remember having discussions with Karen. Yeah. All these chemicals it starts, from within our house, which we have control of. We’re self polluting ourselves. People think of pollution. They think of going outside, smelling smog and things like that. But what about your own pollution that you create in the house with all these like air fresheners and things like that? Because with my sister, we did find out it wasn’t hereditary.. So basically something clicked, something got cells growing and it’s like, Well, I don’t believe it’s like maybe one ingredient that’s probably being exposed to multiple chemicals. Some of it, you breathe through the air, some of it you’re eating, whatever pesticide residue or, or worse, it’s like, all this artificial flavoring. Can we have real food anymore? That was our synthetic chemicals. Like everything else in these chemicals, something always comes out later, and then it’s what you read and we don’t have all the same genetics and it will affect us more than others and at different concentrations and things like that.

Roughly a week after that I decided to quit. And by that time we had some products formulated we were using and I said, let’s see. You know what, let’s come out with these products and we’ll use those as a means to educate people that there are alternatives that is healthier for you, your family. And and at that time we didn’t think about the environment as much. It was mostly just for the people’s health. So really green beaver was not born with a business plan. Actually. I only wrote a business plan 15 years after we launched our first products, it was really born on a mission. We actually said, okay, let’s make these products, we’ll sell this products. You got to make enough to make a living because we only had so much savings and we had quit our pretty good jobs and all that stuff. So, as long as we can do that, we’ll use the products as a means to communicate our mission to help people live more natural, healthier lives. And later on, we added and in a sustainable world.

Jennifer Myers Chua: You had this background in science, you had this family, you were starting, and you had this complicated diagnosis with your sister. And now you had this idea for a product basically for a brand. How did you move this forward into creating an actual business?

Alain Ménard : There was a reason and definitely, but still, it was pretty bold starting out a family, good careers, I mean, wow. What were we thinking? I guess we truly believed it obviously. We were going to a health food store, went on, the internet started looking at it. They sell natural products. So maybe if we came out with some products and we had bought some natural, natural, personal care from there. We’re coming mostly from the states. No, it wasn’t that many there, but mostly from the states, Canadians were not even heard of.

And we said, Okay, well maybe we can start making our products and then we can go and deliver them to the stores and then they could sell their products for us. Most of the products are already there and there were a few, but were mostly coming from the state. And then well basically, you empty your basement, then you put up some shelves. Right. And we were lucky because I did have a, the help of my parents. My dad would come and help me label the order and sticks and things like that, watching hockey game or during the day with me in a basement with a wood stove going in that day and, whatever. And Coco came around and our son Joshua and yeah, so my mom would help out with with cocoa because Karen was busy, also working. Our first orders, I mean, it was just like one carton box, it would maybe five, six product inner boxes and that was it little by little. And then consumer shows, we did so many consumer shows.

I’ll never forget. The first one I told Karen, we had a van and I said, okay, we loaded up the van. I mean, there wasn’t a square inch left in that van. I said, we have to bring lots of products because this is going to be a hit. If I could have hooked up a trailer to the van, I would have hooked it up. And I would have filled that one too. There was a Toronto woman’s show. I said, Karen, they said, there’s going to be 30 000 women. We’re going to tell him we have a deodorant without aluminum, I mean, they’re going to line up and all natural and toothpaste with real flavors for their kids? I said, Karen, it’s going to be crazy. It was a tree day show. Would I started Friday afternoon type thing. And I said I don’t think we’ll have enough stuff to last till Saturday. End of day, Saturday. But that’s all we could bring. I’m like, oh, what a disaster? So I’m there. And I have my new products and I’m thinking, man, they’re going to jump all over this. And all I saw is I saw a bunch of deers all weekend, like a deer when it looks into headlights. And when I was telling him they would just look at me and I could tell, like, they’re not getting it. They don’t get it. So that was a long trade show. Hardly sold anything.

And all the other, like booths were like major, like big cosmetic companies. And we had a little wood table and. I kind of like very disappointed. And then I was thinking and thinking I couldn’t stop, and I figure it out. And I said, I remember saying to Karen, you know what? I think I know why. You know when we say this is toothpaste with natural flavors and they look at you like what? So like why, I said, Karen, this is what’s going on in the world. Artificial flavors have become the norm. Natural flavors, almost a weird thing. Cause they’re so used to the artificial. I said, I don’t know how we got here. I guess these big companies with all their marketing and whatever. Right. They pushed it at us. We, they liked it and they can’t get off it. You know what I mean? They’ll almost think of natural is like, is like weird. And is it safe? So I said, we’re going to have to start way back a couple steps back in the education process because who, I didn’t think it was that far back.

Jennifer Myers Chua: In the beginning, the company was really founded on helping people make healthier decisions for their health and then sustainability and all that piece came later. I was wondering, do you have a moment that really stands out in your mind when sustainability became important to you?

Alain Ménard : triclosan. That got me really thinking. It’s a chemical antibacterial agent and it’s found like, antibacterial soaps, it was even in toothpaste. And then a study, started coming out, showing that the triclosan, they could find it in the sewage. Right. And then they could find it. In the Ottawa river and lake Ontario, Pacific ocean, near Vancouver. Why? Well, first of all, it’s very persistent. It’s not doesn’t biodegrade. Very easily. Right? So they could see that, Hey, this stuff is like everywhere. And the study came out and then a few after came out that validated that first study that showed that it was actually like having an effect on the aquatic animals, so it was killing frogs and all kinds of nasty stuff. Cause they could find triclosan in them and things like that. So then you start thinking and not many people think about it. I didn’t before that, I don’t think so. If you were to just think . Tomorrow, Montreal Toronto, Vancouver, all the big, big cities across Canada, right? How many litres of shampoos and shower gels and conditioners and laundry detergent, dish washing detergent, that’s going to go through the system and then end up in our river rivers and lakes. Day after day. It’s horrible. And then the worst thing is it makes me think of like, when they use pesticides on food that we eat, you throw it out in the water and then, you know What? You bring it back in to drink. You’re polluting your water source.

Does that you bring aliens here? I think are aliens, yeah. Well maybe I’m superior intelligence than us. They would look at us and say, those are the most stupidest animals I’ve ever seen. They’re contaminating their food source and their water source. An, the land that they need to grow the food source. Like they’re really not too intelligent. Think about it. What I exactly just cause we always did it that way. And so far it doesn’t mean we can change,

so triclosan. Yeah, that was the first one. FDA actually, banned it in the states. There’s no more triclosan in products in the states. If you come to Canada, health, Canada reduced the amount that is allowed in products, but they didn’t actually ban it. So that was horrible.

Jennifer Myers Chua: You commented earlier that this is becoming more top of mind for a lot of people. I’m curious how you did that because you a pioneer in this space, you really are. I mean, I was using your shampoo in 2006 or something like this. You are a person that really significantly impacted how Canadians feel about these products. I would love to know what you did to really create change here. Like I’m assuming your background in science maybe gave you a unique advantage in communication, but how did you break through to meeting consumers where there only beginning to understand that natural is important?

Alain Ménard : We were doing mostly like grassroots stuff. Right. So our impact would have been kind of limited, but with other companies getting on board there are groups like the environmental defense, and bunch of scientists there that really started going after the chemicals and showing everybody to prove, it’s when the scientists got more together, it used to be, the scientists would be like on the other side, proving that the chemicals were safe, those are the people that have the knowledge they can see through it. And then there started to be a shift. So some of those minds went into places like environmental defense or whatnot, and started working for the good side, the natural side. I see it as a good site, and I think that was probably where it started. Started getting a little bit traction and these were credible people. Talking about real studies, real results, real research. And then I hate to say it, but I think that this whole, like climate change actually accelerated it because by showing people that, our CO2 emissions can actually affect the weather, I remember way at the beginning, a lot of people are skeptical about all of that. Even there were scientists saying they were saying, no, it’s not true. It took a long time, cause the onus usually it’s always in science, it’s always a, the proof that it’s not rather than prove that it does, it’s a safer way of doing it, I guess, but it takes more time. You know what also, now that I think back over the years, it’s when you had like all of a sudden, a product recall, it’s like all of a sudden you have the agencies they’re batting triclosan, not to be used ever on the American soil, because they realized that all this stuff in these soaps and things like that is damaging to the environment. If health Canada ban some ingredient ingredients as well. Before the companies would say, well, no, it is safe. This chemical is safe because it’s approved by health Canada. They approved it on whatever data they had at that time. Who presented the data who prepared the data, a little bit of a conflict of interest there. Yeah.

And then you had things like, finally it was proven that the baby powder containing Talc cause cancers, ovarian cancers, and that company’s being sued for it right now, proven in court that they were guilty, that they had some knowledge of it. That’s horrible. It was just like recently, two weeks ago, all of a sudden you have this major, big brand company that recalling all of their sunscreen because they, they figured out that it contains benzene, which is cancer causing. And this is happening as we speak right now, these products are being pulled off the shelves. And it’s all of this stuff coming out.

And then people say, well, wait a minute, you say it’s safe, your research has shown that it’s safe. Yeah. But you should see the protocols, it’s like pesticides, they have to be tested obviously, when, when they’re tested, they’re tested and they don’t go out and test it and plots outside when it’s like super windy, it’s very, very calm. And the farmers are supposed to only apply like pesticide when it’s not windy, but you know, when you only have so many days to spread and you have so many acres, you’re in a hurry.

I remember once jogging. I could Tastes like something metal and like metal in your mouth. And I looked over and they were spraying and it was getting the wind. I was breathing in all of the the pesticides, was like, my God, they don’t, they’re not being used like you’re supposed to be used for whatever reason, not accusing people, but it’s just the way it is.

Jennifer Myers Chua: I’d love to talk to you a little bit more about these recalls because on hipmommies Instagram, for example, we share information with our followers, a lot about these recalls, and there’s been a lot of conversation about the sunscreen recall, and I’ve heard so many different opinions about this, but we always advocate for these natural mineral based sunscreens regardless. So I was wondering since your sunscreen is one of the best sellers in Canada, especially for children and it is mineral based. Can you explain a little bit more about what that means and the safety around sunscreen in terms of health and environment?

Alain Ménard : Conventional sunscreen, the ones made with the chemicals have been having a hard time. If you look back in the last four or five years right now, starting with studies coming out that showed that the active ingredients in sunscreen actually do cross the skin. That’s the active chemicals, right? And these are simple studies and they’ve been done and redone and redone. It’s proven every time, after a single use of these chemical sunscreens, studies have shown that they found them in urine and blood and breast milk. They get right through your, your skin and get right into your system and it just goes everywhere. Again, there were saying, Yeah yeah but it’s a such a small amount that safe that, and I hate that answer.

So, they were getting a bad rap because they were scared, but they use their PR to convince the people, reassure people that, but it’s okay. It’s still safe. And then a couple years ago there was a big recall. And one of the big brands, kid’s skins were all like burning and nothing to do with the active ingredient on that one. Because of artificial fragrance. They had started using a new artificial fragrance and it just burned kids skin and you can still find that information on CBC actually.

And then two years ago, this was a shocker. I knew I’ve seen studies that but it was, I had a hard time believing it, but more research was done and actually it was proven, they were finding out small, small amount of chemical sunscreen on people. When they go swimming in the coral reef, where people were going to swim, the coral reefs were dying and they made their link. They found the chemical from the sunscreen, very small amount, but in the coral. They did studies and they showed that yeah, it could kill it. So actually Hawaii, the state of Hawaii, who depend a lot on tourism and they like to have their coral cause that attracts people too, have banned the use of chemical sunscreen. They only allow the use of mineral sunscreen. Isn’t that unbelievable to say that they’ve banned it, and well, two weeks ago the benzene issue it’s like, okay, enough is enough. People, there are great natural mineral sunscreens out there, safe for you, effective. They go through the same testing as they do for the efficacy as the chemical ones, and it’s all submitted to health Canada. They have to review it. Isn’t there enough bad stuff known about chemical sunscreen?

Jennifer Myers Chua: If you haven’t made that switch yet, if you haven’t tried mineral sunscreen, what exactly is the difference?

Alain Ménard : It’s the active ingredients. So, basically instead of using the avobenzone and all those type of chemicals that, that act as an active ingredient in the sunscreen, you’re basically using a mineral powder. So it’s basically a zinc oxide or titanium dioxide. It’s also an active ingredient, but it’s also for us blocking the rays, but it’s also a counter irritant that takes away a skin rash. So basically the way that these minerals work is basically they block it. The rays just bounce off them. It’s pretty simple.

Jennifer Myers Chua: So in your time making sunscreen, for example, you’ve noticed all of these issues with conventional sunscreens and some of the chemicals that are getting through testing and making it onto store shelves. When did you realize that conventional baby care products may be less than ideal? What’s going on in conventional baby products that we need to be aware of?

Alain Ménard : If you look at baby products and baby shampoo or an adult shampoo, I mean, they’re all made at the same components. You need a surfactant, which is a soap component. You need texturizer, so it doesn’t come out so liquidity that comes out of the bottle too quick. You need a preservative. There is a pediatrician in the states that did a really simple study just to prove one thing. She knew that, for example, the lavender go to bed, baby lotion or whatever, soothing and everything, but you know what, the majority of the conventional products that say it’s lavender do not contain lavender. Right? I don’t know why they’re allowed to say lavender. It should say lavender scent. And she knew that. So basically all these products contain artificial fragrances, and she knew that an artificial fragrance is not one ingredient. On average, it’s 14 different chemicals put together. And because it’s propriety information companies do not have to reveal what is in that fragrance. That just that fact scares me cause that’s carte blanche to put whatever you want. You just have to basically sign an affidavit that it’s safe for the government. But I think that’s not enough personally. But one of the chemicals that the, that the majority of these artificial fragrance contain is called phthalates. It’s kind of a funny word. It’s even harder to pronounce. They actually prolong this duration of a scent, intensifies it and prolong.

I saw an ad on TV, not too long ago. Where there one of these air fresheners, it’s like, eh, it’s good for like seven daysand I thought. Oh my God, you’re going to put that in their house. And it’s going to stick around for seven days. So anyways, that’s what these phthalates do. And so like, for example, if you were to put a lavender essential oil on your t-shirt and a lavender artificial fragrance with phthalates in it and another t-shirt put them away and your laundry room, whatever, for a week, you bring both out. I can guarantee you the lavender t-shirt won’t smell like lavender anymore, there are lavender artificial fragrance, still will. Those are the phthalates at work. There’s many different types of phthalates it’s a class of chemicals and this pediatrician knew that phthalates were suspected endocrine disruptors.

Some of it we’ll call them Zino estrogen or whatever. What it is is that basically it’s a chemical that gets into your system. When people say what mean, I just putting out, I’m just putting this stuff on my skin. I’m not eating it. And I know a lot of the chemicals, not all, but a lot of the chemicals in these products actually get through your skin and they don’t just sit there underneath your skin forever. No, they get picked up in your blood system. And then here we go. Yeah. let’s go for a ride. We’ll go through this organ we’ll go through this organ. We’ll go to the brain. We’ll go through the liver. The liver that’s when a lot of times it’s it, it gets broken down. And unfortunately some of these chemicals they’re kind of shaped, like some of our hormones, there is like a key and they fit only in certain area. On receptors cell receptors So you have a chemical that resembles a hormone that you have, and it creates a hormonal imbalance. So all of a sudden, there’s too many of these hormones clicking all of these receptors at the same time. And that’s when it can cause serious illness, leading up to cancer.

Hormones are very, very powerful, small amount difference can change a body like you wouldn’t believe. Right? So they’re called Zino estrogen. And so she was concerned. She was concerned that she knew that parents would the, wash your baby every day with these artificial fragrance to put some lotions on. And she was concerned. So it was really pretty simple study. When you think about it, she collected urine from 268 babies across the country in the states because she wanted regional representation and all that stuff. So you take the urine and you just send it out to an analytical lab and you, you just see phthalates and then the baby’s urine. And babies don’t forget they are growing hormones, you have growing organs, even more susceptible to a hormonal imbalance. And unfortunately what they found was that a hundred percent of the babies tested, had phthalates in their urine. Hundred percent. I mean, that’s horrible. We’re poisoning our children.

And then you’re wondering, little Johnny can’t concentrate. Yeah. I know, but he’s indirectly being drugged with all these chemical hormones and the parents don’t even know they’re doing it. Can’t concentrate. Oh. And then yeah, of course. Okay. Well, let’s, let’s give him some pills, and there’s no end to it. I’m not advocating that people should, just stay away from medication. We have an illness, it’s an illness. It’s different, but what led to the illness? That’s the problem with modern medicine today. We’re, it’s very good at bandaging things. You have a, this disease here, you have this symptom, okay. Here’s a medication to take care of that symptom. Well maybe why do I have that symptom?

Jennifer Myers Chua: Something else that you’ve really revolutionized really, is both toothpaste and anti per sprint. And I know you’ve won some awards and you’ve gotten a lot of Canadian press about your antiperspirant, your toothpaste, but why did you choose antiperspirant and toothpaste and what makes yours so revolutionary?

Alain Ménard : They don’t need preservatives, the water activity meaning the amount of water it’s available for microorganisms to grow in that type of product is very low. and there’s humectants in there. So they basically, they take the water and they don’t give it away. Nowadays we have all kinds of natural preservatives that we can use it. You can eat. Back then it was. It was tough finding them, it was a big challenge.

I also, at the same time toothpaste, we though well, you know what? Maybe people will get it more cause it putting it in their mouth. Most people now know that your skin can absorb stuff, yeah. Probably still some awareness to be done there, but back then, no people didn’t even think about it. So I said, well, okay. And the deodorant, well, I always had a big hunch and it’s been proven now, it’s the aluminum in those antiperspirants. for years the companies always said, oh no, It’s a, it’s safe. It doesn’t cross your skin. They always said it. They said it just gets in your sweat pores and creates a plug in. Eventually it plug falls out when it plugs, it plugs your sweat pores while sweat can come out of it. And people have to understand, it’s not just like aluminum, pure aluminum that they dig up from the earth. No, no. It’s chemically treated aluminum. Aluminum chlorohydrate. Aluminum zirconium. It’s not as if like those exist in nature. No, it’s manmade, partly what it partly natural element.

I laughed yesterday. I saw a company come up with a, an antiperspirant, but aluminum, but they said, Yeah but it’s made with recycled aluminum. It’s like, Okay. But what about the people’s health that doesn’t, that doesn’t change anything, and studies have shown that that’s a, those chemically treated aluminums were potential endocrine disruptor or cancer causing if you want. And studies have shown that there were, they did find some of this aluminum in the breast tissue that was metastasized cancer or tumor. And it’s like, Okay. there is a smoking gun, but the industry still said, no, no, it’s impossible. It must be coming from somewhere else because you can’t get true. Further studies had been done by using isotope and they added an isotope to the aluminum, so they could actually trace it. Yeah. They take a blood sample, they find the aluminum they’ll know it’s the aluminum that actually came from there. So first study showed that the, yes, the, it does cross the skin. It’s pretty complex a study to do. It sounds simple, but it’s not. And then the, even that tested on people that have just shaved. They call it damaged skin. If you apply it right after a damaged skin, you get six fold, more absorption of aluminum from the aluminum stick.

And people maybe don’t know this too, but a typical antiperspirant contains anywhere between 15 up to a 25% pure refined aluminum adds a lot. That’s a lot. So when those studies came out and now you’re seeing it on shelves in Canada now, the companies were a little bit scared because they’d been going on saying it’s safe. It doesn’t get through your skin. So the first thing they did or the FDA forced them to do it is add a new warning to there, to the antiperspirant, stick to the label. And it’s in the back of the label. I would encourage people to read it and Canada’s not mandatory, in the states it is, but most companies in Canada will actually add the warning. Cause most of them are American companies anyhow. And they don’t want to get sued. So it says if, if you have kidney disease to ask you your doctor before using this product, why renal disease can they disease? Because this aluminum is getting to your skin and getting into your body, it is circulating everywhere, and if you have renal disease, you need your kidneys to get rid of the aluminum. It gets filtered out of your blood so that you can get it out of your body.

But people with kidney disease, they can’t get rid of the aluminum fast. They can get a toxic level of aluminum and have serious damage. And, studies have shown you take care of the aluminum and antiperspirants you’ll think about the breast cancer. You’ll think about the Alzheimer’s. Cause there was a study shown that, they scan the people’s brain that had Alzheimer’s versus people who didn’t have that same age group. And there was a significant difference of of aluminum in people with Alzheimer’s brain. So it does cross the blood-brain barrier. Right. So how long will this be allowed to continue? I hope not for long. And they started adding those types of warning. It’s like an admission, right? So it’s just a question of time. I think the smoking gun is there for the breast cancer link. It’s just a question of time.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Natural deodorants have had a bad rap that they don’t work. What did you do? What is the difference with yours? Why does yours work?

Alain Ménard : There’s deodorants and then there’s antiperspirants right. So we’ve had deodorants for all for 19 years, right? And we introduced them to aluminum free, antiperspirant a couple of years ago. And I’ll come back to that one. But first we, we looked at the smell. Why people wear deodorant? Is for the smell. Deodorant will not stop you from sweating. Only aluminum based antiperspirant could do that because the aluminum goes into the plug, the sweat pores, and creates this metal plug.

And we thought, wow. Okay. Cause when you look at the composition of sweat, now people say I’m sweating. I stink. Yeah. But the sweat doesn’t smell. It’s almost odorless. Of course it’s mostly water, but you do have some stuff coming out, depending on what you ate, whatever, but what causes this smell? Actually, your arm it’s armpits are full of bacteria, molds and yeast.

It’s quite disgusting actually. And then, so what happens is that when you sweat, you’re feeding them, that’s their food. They love moist areas. So then when they get that moisture and they get some nutrients, they start multiplying. And when they multiply, they create byproducts and that’s what smells. There’s some very specific bacteria. One of them is called CNO bacteria, something, I forgot the name, but it’s actually using to make cheese in one of those stinky cheese. So next time you smell it, thinky cheese you’ll see it smells a little bit like armpits. I, sorry, I don’t want to ruin, everybody said love for cheese there, but just by the way.

We focus mostly on the antibacterial part of the deodorant because we knew if we could put in there enough antibacterial agents, natural, of course, the less bacteria you have or microorganism the, less byproducts you’re going to produce when you’re feeding it water. Basically that’s the whole concept. So we really focused very hard on that and that was my specialty. So it was just a given, it was Okay. Let me play with some antibacterial stuff.

I think it’s important to sweat personally. I do. I think get some people say, oh, well you get, that’s how you get rid of a lot of toxins. No, you get rid of a little bit of toxins. Yes. But the majority of your toxins, you get rid of it through your urine and feces. It’s a natural thing to do and maybe there’s other things we don’t understand, but there are times when you don’t want to sweat. I don’t know you’re at a wedding, big presentation, whatever, so that’s why people, a lot people would still continue using antiperspirant.

The deodorants had a bad rap, so quite a long time, most of them weren’t that good. To be honest with you. The old, old deodorants it’s all they used to be is this heavily perfumed so that when you put it, hopefully that perfume would be stronger than your own perfume, and then, the antibacterial people started working with more antibacterial active ingredients that greatly improved the efficacy, but then people are still sweating though. That’s the thing. So I thought about it. Well, if we could make something to replace the aluminum, but that was safe. I didn’t want to have something so small that it could get into a sweat pore. So I thought, well, what if we did like a surface block, temporary surface block for those people don’t want to sweat. So that’s when we thought of wax wax actually the idea came, we were working on the sunscreen and we use wax as a, for the natural waterproofing, right. Instead of using a silicone, that’s another bad one. That’s just triclosan, its gonna come out it’s just a question a time. We do the first test. We just do it qualitative. So you put it on your back of your hand and then I call it the faucet test. You put your hand underneath the water. If you see you look at, see if the water pearls and they do big pearls or small pearls. It gives you an indication that it’s going to work. We’re allowed to see sweat resistant on our sunscreen. So I thought Okay. It’s water resistant, but it’s also sweat resistant. So we started working with the wax, but it wasn’t working. Your skin is not smooth. It’s like in grand canyon, like full of crevices. So I used part of waxes esters. The definition of Esther means part of, so you have all these long fatty acid chains there, so you just cut and use a little piece of the wax. So they can get down into grand canyon. So it does like a film, it’s a surface film. It doesn’t get into your pores. It’s too big.

So finally we did a study head-to-head. Versus the conventional brands with aluminum. It was done in a specialized lab on people. So we actually tested it to see if it prevented the sweating. And we showed that it was just as effective. Finally, we have something just as effective for the sweating. We had something for this smell, but now we have something for the sweating and the smell, obviously. So yeah, that was a big accomplishment. That was one of our biggest one. Honestly, there it’s a, it’s a big one.

We’ve been making toothpaste for 19 years, so we weren’t allowed to say the anti-cavity on the toothpaste because it didn’t contain fluoride. I was a regulation. We figured out something, we put together, all the literature, the research, and sent it to health Canada. They finally agreed that the research that we showed that yes, 20% xylitol in a toothpaste is as effective as fluoride. It is anti-cavity, which is a big thing, especially for children’s toothpaste, because now you finally have anti-cavity children’s toothpaste that is safe to swallow. And I say that because any toothpaste on the market clearly says on the packaging or the box or the tube, whatever caution, for children of six years of age or less only put the size of a pea size amount of toothpaste and make sure they don’t swallow it. And if they do contact your poison control center, wow. What does that. What does that tell you about fluoride? Flouride is great. It’s great for Anticavity, prevent cavity for tooth enamel and things like that. But if you start ingesting it and you start getting too much, it can end up with fluorosis.

This is not proven yet, but the study by a group of Harvard researchers showed that cities that had fluoride in a water they had a higher incidence of bone cancer and cities that didn’t have fluoride in our water. So they think there’s a link they’re not proven yet, but.

Jennifer Myers Chua: You’ve been advocating for Canadians for our health, with the government with health Canada for all of these years, but you’re also committed to education and raising awareness. And you do a lot of that as well, which I love about the potential dangers of chemicals, but I was wondering how you were interacting with local producers and the natural world. Could you talk a little bit about what green beaver is doing in terms of climate initiatives or in terms of supporting local producers?

Alain Ménard : That’s part of sustainability. Some people will look at it as local economy. It’s more than that. Sustainability. For example, sunflower seed oil. Yeah. I could buy it cheaper and Ukraine, but you know what to bring all those barrels from Ukraine to here, that creates a lot of pollution. You got to try to minimize, you know, all the transport. All those boats very diesel and soforth. It’s more, more of a sustainability thing. We support organic farmers obviously, and every time you buy organic food, you’re providing a business for an organic farmer . So let’s say he has a hundred acres. Well, that’s a hundred acres that no pesticide is being spread on. That’s at a hundred acres that actually bees can actually breed and not being killed by pesticides, that’s a hundred acres that the earth is healthy. They showed it, the, the pesticide was all question of a yield, right? How much are you going to get per acre? There’s a study was done in Pennsylvania. It’s like a Amish. They don’t use pesticides and they get more bushels of corn per acre than the big producers with their pesticides and their synthetic fertilizer. Why is because the earth is healthy, there’s all kinds of microorganisms in there creating their own natural fertilizer. So every time you buy organic, you got to think that, you know what, you’re helping out. You’re helping to reduce the amount of pesticides and chemicals that’s being spread in our land. That’s leaching in our rivers contaminating, not just the earth, the water, but also the animals that live in it feed off. And who else feeds off it, not just the animals.

Jennifer Myers Chua: When you think about the children, or when you think about the Canadians of the future or the people of the future, are you hopeful?

Alain Ménard : very hopeful? optimistic, feel great about it. It feels like I didn’t just spend the last 20 years just I dunno singing out in the middle of nowhere. Nobody heard nothing. It’s happening. It’s actually happening. It took a long time. I’m telling you the first 10 years, I still, it was so slow. People weren’t getting it. But now if I looked at the last five years, oh my God, it’s unbelievable. I mean, I didn’t grow up with, we weren’t recycling in those days. Right. But then I look at the, my son. For him it’s recycling is, yeah. That’s what you do. You don’t even think about it. Eating organic for him. He’s like, yeah, of course. That’s what you do. You don’t need chemicals or that’s, this doesn’t make sense. I think that next generation, because again, I think about, the millenial parents. Compared to parents 20 years ago. My research is qualitative. But I’ve talked to many parents. It’s night and day. So their children that will be just for them, that will become the norm. So I come back to the story when I clued in that people accepted artificial flavors as the norm. Well, now they’re going to be accepting, like, of course you eat natural, real food. That’s the norm. No more of these artificial flavors. I’m just using that as an example, but yeah, very optimistic. It’s like a, wow. I, it’s so great. It’s a great feeling that, people are finally waking up. Again, like I said earlier, I think the global warming accelerated the awareness and the acceptance, although right now, if you look at everything that’s going on in the world with the impact of global warming and the pollution and things like that, I think in 20 years from now, we’re going to be in a better position than what we are today. The air is going to be cleaner and 20 years from now than it is today. I’m sure of it it’s going to happen. It’s unfortunate, but sometimes that’s what people need. They need a little bit of a shock, to believe, to change their ways. And I think we’ve got that shock. We want to change and we don’t want to feel that again. And now for our future generations, no, can leave that to them

Jennifer Myers Chua: if you want to learn more about Alain and his certified organic and cruelty-free personal care products. Visit greenbeaver.com. Looking to try the revolutionary antiperspirant or toothpaste that uses the benefit of science. You can find both in retailers, across Canada. You can follow along with Alain on his mission to inspire a natural way of life in a more sustainable world. On Facebook at thegreenbeaver or Instagram at the_green _beaver.

 

Highlights from episodes 1-10 & Live More Sustainably or Socially Responsible With Tips You Can Take Now.

In today’s episode, we’re going to do something a little different and revisit the last ten episodes, The first 10 episodes of the podcast, focusing on the highlights. The moments where I learned really eye-opening from each guest, but we’ve also included some moments that you, the listeners have commented on were really inspiring. So if you missed an episode or you are just discovering this project? This is a great way to get an overview of what we’ve learned so far and see which episodes you may want to go back to and listen to. I also share some of the actionable tips from the episodes to help make thoughtful choices as a consumer.

if you want to live a more sustainable life, if you want to use your business or buying power to give back, or if you just want to learn about really, really great brands doing really, really interesting things. This is the place to be.

Featuring

• Rebecca Saha from Tiny Toy Co.
• Maran Stern Kubista from My Kindness Calendar
• Kimberlee West from Kids Swag
• Jennifer Myers Chua from Hip Mommies
• April Mackinnon from Anointment
• Lisa Nguyen from Baubles + Soles
• Megan Takeda-Tully from Suppli
• Melita Cyril from Q for Quinn
• Emma Rohmann from Green at Home
• Sheena Russell from Made With Local

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Myers Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 11.

On today’s episode, we’re going to do something a little different and revisit the last 10 episodes.  The first 10 episodes of the podcast, focusing on the highlights. These are the moments where I learned something really eye-opening from each guest, but we’ve also included some moments that you, the listeners have commented were really inspiring.  So if you missed an episode or if you’re just discovering this project, this is a great way to get an overview of what we’ve learned so far and see which episodes you may want to go back to and listen.  I’ll also be sharing some of the actionable tips we learned from each episode.  To help make thoughtful choices as a consumer. And if you want to live a more sustainable life, or if you want to use your business or buying power to give back.  Or if you just want to learn about really, really, really great brands doing some really, really, really interesting things. This is the place to be.

 In the very first episode, episode one, we meet Rebecca Saha. She’s a kindergarten teacher and the founder of Tiny Toy Co.  With her business, Rebecca repurposes tiny plastic toys that would otherwise go into landfill into educational kits.

 And part of Rebecca’s mission is to encourage children to do things differently and become a different kind of consumer.  And through her upcycled educational kits and her hands-on educational workshops. Rebecca is taking her background in early childhood education and her commitment to sustainability and doing just that.

In this episode, Rebecca had a lot to share about good intentions, why we need to be mindful as consumers about what we are buying.  And were items like those drive-thru toys will actually go if we donate them. But one thing that Rebecca touched on that really stood out to me. Was about upcyclers.  The businesses that use found or donated materials.  And repurpose those into other goods. And if we can see the benefits of a circular economy, that’s one thing. But in order for this to really work.  We need to purchase these upcycled goods, even if at a higher cost, because donating our unwanted materials isn’t enough.

 Rebecca Saha: There’s this presumption that the way to help these businesses, that the way to help the movement. It is to contribute your, your junk, contribute your stuff. And while that’s important, too, the best way that you can help them movement is to buy the end product until we shop differently. Nothing’s going to change  if you give me your bags and bags of toy junk, and you feel great about the fact that it’s going to be reused instead of going to landfill. That’s amazing. But if you follow that by heading to the toy store or the dollar store  one or the takeout lane and refilling it up, refilling your playroom with the same junk, with the same stuff at the same volume, then then you haven’t interrupted the cycle, you’ve perpetuated the cycle.  And so I think what’s really important for for the movement, the reuse movement, the upcycling movement to succeed is for people to support it  financially at the at the other end.  people need to purchase things differently  as well as contributing to the, to the intake of the circular businesses.

 Jennifer Myers Chua: When working on this episode, I think I was most astonished to learn that McDonald’s gives out 1.5 billion toys in their happy meals each year. And if you’re choosing the book alternative, which is what we’ve done in the past, Note that, that plastic wrapping on the books that contributes to hundreds of tons of plastic a year as  well it’s just a lot of waste.

 And if you want to take action, now, here are some tips from this episode.

1. Be mindful of what tiny breakable plastics you bring into your home. Noting that most can not be recycled.
2. Consider eco-friendly alternatives to loot bags or get the upcycled ones like tiny toy Co.’s ReLoot bag.
3. Look for upcycled alternatives to things that you need for your home. There are some clever and sustainable solutions out there. It may take a little more digging. But you can get things even like countertops made from old chopsticks. 

Maran Stern Kubista was also looking for an alternative to tiny plastic toys or sugary treats. And we meet her in episode two.

Maran wanted to give her children that advent calendar experience without all of the treats. And taking inspiration for moments in her life when she experienced kindness. Maran developed a countdown style calendar focused on giving back.

Her brand is called My Kindness Calendar and her acts of kindness are meaningful, beautiful, even, and you never know the impact that something’s going to make on someone short-term or long-term, it’s powerful. Maran is growing the brand into one that supports children year round with mindfulness activities that cultivate kindness.  And because she says kids are awesome open, and these kinds of activities are particularly important after all they’ve been through over the last couple of years in this pandemic.

Maran Stern-Kubista: “I am always. Aware of the potential of kids. I’m never surprised to see kids doing amazing things because I think that’s the default. Like I think the default is you’re awesome. And you’re amazing. Now, like we, as society and  in our culture, like we just need to enable that. We need to create opportunity for kids to be amazing because they’re so creative and like they’re so intrinsically, there’s so much good there, that it just needs to be fostered and released, and everyone is going to develop into the people they’re meant to be. But when we can do our part of, giving them opportunity and encouraging them when they do positive things and helping them understand when things are challenging. And when different choices could be made in challenging moments, like that’s just. Enabling them to, live through their potential. So I’m for sure hopeful and talk about resilience, what kids are going through right now. There’s no doubt that it’s having a humongous cost on everybody’s mental health, like parents and kids.  This is the story of life, right? People go through things that they should never have to go through that are super challenging. And that can be really deflating and it can be very upsetting and it can also be, a chance. I choose to see difficult moments as an opportunity to really build resilience.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: This episode had me considering my own traditions, particularly surrounding the holidays.  And Maran pointed out how early children understand the concept of receiving gifts. And then that expectation of gifts at certain occasions.  Giving to others and creating special opportunities for kindness. That is something that is more meaningful to me, but how have I been modelling this to my child? And how can we build more meaningful traditions around giving. It’s worth a thought.

Want to take action now? It sounds simple, but the easiest thing you can do to spread kindness is to be kind.  Want to brighten someone’s day today. Here’s a tip. Maran says that one of the most popular of her kindness activities and the one that she sees shared most on social media is baking cookies and bringing them to a friend.

In episode three, we chat with Kimberlee West, who is someone that I have followed for a long time. Since the early days of her business Kids Swag. I’m endlessly impressed by Kimberlee and her shop. It’s a purpose-driven e-commerce brand and she’s built Kids Swag around the idea of mindful representation.  With her business, she’s made a big impact in the lives of BIPOC children who don’t generally see themselves represented in the toy aisle.  And out of all of the episodes featured here, I think this is the one where we learn most about the founder. Kimberlee digs deep into her past. Events that have shaped how she sees the world this way.  And we get a really good understanding of her. Why. Why she is on a mission to help raise confident kids that appreciate difference.

Kimberlee West: “I don’t think people recognize or understand the psychological impact of not seeing yourself. One of the things that I did as I delve more into Kids Swag was reading a lot more and I came across a study and it was saying by the age of three, and it happens earlier, but age three is quite pivotal by the age of three, your child is really understanding their world based off of race. So they’re categorizing people and giving them certain characteristics and traits. So this, basically, this is the beginning of stereotyping at age three. And so you can imagine if in that period of time, they haven’t seen themselves, they’re also characterizing themselves as being something that’s less than, or not really part of the world that they’re in.”

“If it is a child that’s white and they’re seeing themselves, then it makes it that much harder for them to, even as they get older for them to acknowledge or understand the pain, that probably someone that doesn’t look like them has experienced their whole life because in their world, it will be a feeling of like, why does race matter? It’s not really a construct. Why can’t we all be the same? They’ve had the luxury of being able to identify as just being themselves more so than being white.”

 Jennifer Myers Chua: This episode had so many light bulb moments and so many things that. I haven’t considered as a white woman or a white business owner or a mother, even though I’m raising a multi-racial child. And Kimberlee has a really special gift when it comes to marketing and how she engages her community, her customers are instant ambassadors for her brand. I just adore Kimberlee’s approach.

And I really appreciate the stories that she told in this episode. It’s, it’s really worth the listen. And if you want to take action, now, here are some tips from this episode. 

1. All of us, have the opportunity to teach our children to be open and celebrate differences. A great way to start fill your home library with books, featuring a variety of voices and stories from people all over the world.
2. Want to see representation in the toy aisle? Speak up large brands are beginning to take notice and make changes based on consumer demand.
3. If you’re a creator or a curator, you need to be mindful of bias in product design and shop curation too.

In episode four, I spoke a bit about Hip Mommies and how we came to be and why we’ve made some of the choices that we have. In the past seven years, we’ve taken our distribution business into a brand new direction.  Putting the planet and our communities first, when making decisions. It’s been a long road, filled with a lot of learnings and our business just turned 17.  And I share a number of things that we learned along the way.  Particularly in the last seven years since I’ve been involved. And I won’t go into the recap here, but if you’re interested in rebuilding a business, or family business dynamics or value-based business, or even the world of product based business or the baby products industry. It’s all in this episode. 

But to leave you with one thing, do your research.  Make sure what you were buying is tested, safe, authentic, all of that. And if you don’t have the time. Shop with a reputable seller. Who does that work for you? Sustainability, safety. It’s all very expensive. So if a deal sounds too good to be true. It just might be.

April McKinnon from Anointment is who we meet in episode five. She’s been making handmade personal care products in the Maritimes for over 12 years.  She bought her business, a farmer’s market soap company. And she had some really interesting insights to share about that. About buying a business and if it was a good investment over just starting a business on her own. And over the years, April has made a lot of changes and some mistakes. And she’s now the owner of a thriving, natural skincare brand. Which is available across Canada and in some larger natural retailers, like whole foods.

April’s a former environmental engineer and her homestead and Apiary are on this incredibly beautiful marshland in the east coast of Canada. So she also had a lot to share about how she’s inspired by that unique landscape. And how her business really interacts with the natural world. She also very bravely shared that her time spent in the NICU with her daughter with critical illness was the inspiration to give back and that the PPE and the waste created during that stay was something that had really stuck with her and helped create the values that this business is based on. But what got me about this episode was that April talks about the value chain. About how she sources her ingredients, why she chooses the partner she does  and what that means to us as conscious consumers, when we are deciding between two potential purchases.

April MacKinnon: “I’m a huge proponent of relationship-based business. Shea butter is a great example. I work with a with a supplier that purchases directly from a women’s co-op in Ghana. And so you can see from their videos and from their newsletters what’s happening in the village where the Shea butter is produced. The fact that the women there have been able to send their children to school because this is the income that they are making from selling the Shea butter. And so. I really like that for the social responsibility aspect. For someone starting out. You really have to define your, define your ethics, define your values within your business and don’t deviate. So spending time thinking about those things is really important. I think, there are some companies who for whom success is measured by bottom line and to other companies for whom success is measured in their work-life balance and other people for whom success is measured by something else completely. So knowing that is often enough to drive how you decide to purchase.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Want to take action now? Here are some tips from this episode.

1. Number one. Look online before you buy. Sites like EWG allow you to look in the potential safety risks of personal care products. Now these databases are not perfect. But they can give you some insight into what ingredients are in the products you’re using. Look at the ingredients though, not the verified label, because those are paid opportunities. So just be mindful of that.
2. Passionate about a particular cause? April’s brand supports women through pregnancy postpartum through a number of ways. It’s possible to shop with a brand who have great products and values that align with yours.
3. If you’re in business or looking to start a business, it’s tempting to make something for everyone.  But April points out that it’s best to define your ethics, define your values within your business. And don’t deviate. And over the years, April’s offering has gotten smaller and more focused.  She suggests niching down, niching down and niching down again.

In episode six, we chatted with Lisa Ngyuen from Baubles + Soles. Lisa’s toddler shoes are made of this innovative material of sea salt and soy that are a hundred percent recyclable. And with interchangeable, baubles, really cute hearts and animals and things like that.  You can give the shoe a completely new look with just a twist. Additional features like water resistance, make bubbles and souls incredibly multipurpose and makes them.  Really the top choice of anyone looking to buy less shoes for their little one.

 In this episode, Lisa also gave us a bit of insight into building her business and making it onto shark tank. And she also chats about her heart and souls fund giving back program, which was inspired by her childhood as a refugee. And then time spent in Southeast Asia doing pro bono legal work for stateless peoples. What I found interesting about this conversation.  Was Lisa’s insight into domestic manufacturing.  Lower carbon footprint, less shipping. Greater chance that the workers are being paid fairly. And less chance of environmental catastrophes. Our laws are just stricter here in north America. But often time businesses go overseas right away, because they don’t think there is another option or that it can be cost effective to manufacture close to home.

Lisa Nguyen: “I was doing this research when we were preparing for Shark Tank and one of the things that a CEO that I was working with at the time she pointed out, listen, your effective margins is actually better than if you had manufactured it overseas. And here she is talking about the turnaround time for this product, the time that it, so you have to pay for these products, but then it sits at sea for a month before it gets to, to America. And also like we have the ability to maybe place a lower MOQ minimum order quantity when it’s made here domestically, because it doesn’t have to go so far. When you manufacture off shore, you have to plan out your inventory 6 to 12 months in advance, and then you order accordingly and then your cash goes out, as, as you’re waiting for it to come in. So in actual fact, your margins, like the margins is actually higher than you realize because of the amount of time that it takes and how much money you have sitting in inventory. And then you have to sell out of the inventory. For us here. We have the flexibility of a lower MOQ minimum order quantity and so then our effective margin is actually I think if not lower than the same as if we had chosen to make it. Off shore. If you think about the cost of goods sold and there maybe you add marketing, because  people feel good about that. And, and people feel like quality is there because it is made here. So then that’s actually a little bit of marketing funds that’s already built into the product.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Less than 0.1% of shoes purchased in north America are made in north America. And the majority of shoes sold north America are not recyclable. Many shoe brands that claim recyclability are really just. Taking shoes back and redistributing them. Meaning they’re donated to populations overseas. So that’s a lot of international travel for just one pair of shoes.  Top tips from this episode. 

1. look for multi-purpose shoes for your little one. Toddlers and preschoolers may go through two sizes and six or more pairs of shoes per size in a year.
2. Another thing to look for with kids shoes, machine washable, some shoes are made with plastics and glues that don’t hold up well in the washing machine. And kid’s shoes get dirty.

 In episode seven, we met with Megan Takeda-Tully from Suppli.  episode was fascinating and really eyeopening.  We talked about how much takeout waste is actually created, how that waste is managed and what the environmental and health effects are from our obsession with convenience. And I think out of all of the last 10 episodes, this is the one that effect my habits in my personal life the most. And if you haven’t already listened to this one, it’s worth it. Because if you get takeout at all, it’s, it’s worth a listen.

 The plastic waste from takeout. It’s extreme. Because even before the pandemic. In Canada alone, we were already throwing out 3 million tons of plastic waste. And only 9% of that is actually recycled. The majority of our takeout containers are still made of styrofoam and black plastic. Both of which are not recyclable in most parts of the country. So it ends up in landfills. Along with billions of plastic utensils and about 29,000 tons of plastic food waste ends up in our natural environment. We find it in forests, washed up on beaches, stuff like that. So Megan is taking on a really huge issue.

Who is responsible? Is it on us as the consumer? The restaurants were choosing the styrofoam. Or should our municipalities get involved? Giving subsidies for alternatives?

 Megan Takeda-Tully:  “a lot of people assume that because restaurants are using single use containers that. They don’t care about the environment and that that’s not a priority for them. The reality is, is that the restaurant business is so cost sensitive. It’s such a low margin business.  Despite wanting to do what they can for the environment, sometimes even the more environmentally friendly single use option. They’re too expensive for some of these restaurants. Right. And if it’s between like surviving or not, then they kind of have to survive. But if there’s an alternative that works with them as Suppli aims to do and really partner and understand what their pain points are and try and solve those in a way that’s cost-effective for them and really that we have buy-in from them on the model. I think  there’s a lot to be gained there.”

“One of the other surprising pieces of of kind of building Suppli and everything that I hadn’t really counted on is is how much individuals care about this and want it to succeed?  I think that now we’re building much more community and it’s not just, zero wasters, it’s, it’s a community that supports each other to  help build this momentum. And I think that’s awesome. And it’s so, so refreshing and energizing and. That’s something that I really hadn’t anticipated,  the willingness of our consumer base to give feedback and help us build this. Because that was my intention from the beginning. It’s a service and product service that is built from the grassroots up. And I think that’s the way to form these sorts of initiatives. And I think that sets you up well for building something that really tackles the issues that people are, are seeing.”  

Jennifer Myers Chua: Top tips from this episode.

1. If you’re in Toronto, please sign up for Suppli. Megan is on a very important mission, and this is an easy and affordable way to make big impact.  If not seek out restaurants that are using reusable containers or that will pack your food into a container that you’ve brought.
2. Avoid takeout containers. If you can. The forever chemicals that keep these waterproof are leaching into our waterways and bloodstreams and causing a lot of problems.
3. Make noise. Tell your local restaurants that you want an alternative call your city councillor because this is really an area that we need to take. Action.

Melita from Q for Quinn is our guest in episode eight. After an impressive career in the financial world.  Melita followed her father’s footsteps into the world of entrepreneurship. Creating organic cotton basics like socks for children.  Initially, she was concerned about toxins and dyes that were causing her son to have eczema. But now the focus of the business is more than that. Melita’s factories are OEKO-TEX certified. And she uses GOTScertified cotton.  In this episode, we learn what all of that means and why it’s so important. And Melita also touches on her giveback program as well, where she donates meals to children in the developing world. And in this episode, we talk all about organics, fast fashion. What’s really in our clothes, who’s making them and Melita explains externalities, which is a concept in economics. That explains how we determine the true cost of a product.

Melita Cyril:  “And this is exactly the challenge I find, being a business owner, Trying to create the best possible product. But it ends up being at a much higher cost than, an alternative. I wouldn’t even say competition because it’s not the same product. It’s more of an alternative, right. I have an undergraduate degree in economics and I won’t get into. Too much of the jargon. But I, I will try to explain this. You might understand the concept of  this demand and supply curve intersecting in order to get to the free market price of, of something it’s called lean equilibrium. What happens if the demand curve or the supply curve is not accurate? It does not truly take into account. As far as the supply curve is concerned, the true cost of something. For the demand curve. You’ve got to look at it from a benefit perspective. So if the demand curve does not take into account, the true benefit of something. Or the supply curve does not take into account the true cost of something. You get the wrong price by society.”

“There is something called Externalities, which occurs when the full true cost or benefit of a market is not reflected in the market economics of it. So what that leads to is a wrong price. From a negative externalities perspective is the wrong price and overproduction.”

“And this is exactly the problem with fast fashion. It’s the same problem that we have with pollution. It’s the same concept. So with the supply curve for fashion in generalizing the market a little bit, I should just say for socks, if the cost doesn’t incorporate the social cost of the workers who have to produce were exposed to these pesticides and chemicals. If it doesn’t take into account the environmental costs off these pesticides and chemicals, then you’re going to get a lower price for the wrong price. And if you’re looking to source that that takes into account all of this, the sourcing price is going to be higher. And, and so that, that is exactly why if we pay attention to all this, we have to source at a higher cost and the price ends up being higher for a consumer. By buying a product, you are making sure you are paying the true cost of the product and not a lower cost where somebody else or even your own children end up paying the price for it.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Want to take action now? Here are some tips from this episode.

1. Look for GOTS certified organic cotton, especially if buying for anyone with skin issues or eczema.
2. If you’re choosing fast fashion because of the price. Consider things like cost per use, durable items can be used many more times. Are often available to be resold or passed on.
3. Consider the costs when you’re looking to make a purchase. You can reach out to brands and ask about their worker policies or how things are made.

Number nine. Emma Rhomann is a toxics expert. She helps people make greener, healthier choices in their homes. And because she’s been studying things like water systems and chemicals for decades. I wanted to ask her questions about all of the goods that we’re buying and bringing into our homes. Now this episode goes into all of the things that we never consider about what is in the goods that we are buying. But we also get into who is regulating what makes it onto the shelves. How that’s really a system that’s failing us at this moment. And how all of this affects us and our health in the longterm.

Emma Rohmann: “essentially environmental health or environmental medicine looks at the impact external factors have on our health. When it comes to consumer goods, we can think of them impacting our space. Everything that we are putting on our skin  has the potential to be absorbed. What we put in our air we breathe in and what’s in our food and our drink we ingest. So There’s three pathways and a lot of the kind of conversation around toxics got pushed to the side because most conventional practitioners would say, oh, well, the dose makes the poison. We don’t . Need to be concerned because there’s such small amounts and our bodies have detoxification systems. They’re not going to cause a health impact. Where environmental health comes into play, environmental medicine. we’re not just looking at isolated exposures to things. There are toxins, literally everywhere. At this point. It’s not about going toxin-free, we can’t, but it’s lowering the exposure as much as possible and supporting our body systems so that they can better handle what they can’t control. So when we think of the way that our environment affects our health, it is varied. And that’s what makes it such a challenging field of study because every body handles things differently, but essentially you can consider your body’s systems like a barrel. It’s a contained volume. And when we are exposed to certain toxins or stressors, this adds to our toxic load.  If your body systems cannot process these toxins and stressors fast enough at the rate that they’re coming in, they end up overflowing into our bloodstream into our bodies. Some of them get reabsorbed into our fat and it can cause cellular damage. It can cause hormone, disruption hormone disruption is one of the main things that I talk about because it is so widespread. We know that some toxins are contributing to cancer, asthma, and allergies. It’s vast.  But that’s the crux of how the environment affects us.”

 Jennifer Myers Chua: Top tips.

1. Emma suggests asking questions, reaching out to the manufacturer or the shop and ask about the ingredients. The manufacturers that have safety top of mind. They’re expecting this, they have the information available and they’re happy to help. 
2. Be mindful when shopping online, what you think you’re ordering might not be what shows up at your door. Counterfeits are rampant, especially online and counterfeiters cut corners to keep costs down. Skipping things like safety, fair wages and using cheaper and maybe toxic ingredients.
3. If you’re overwhelmed and you don’t know where to start. If you look at the show notes on thecostofgoodssold.com. You can link to Emma’s podcast and to her blog, where she gives actionable tips to make all of this less overwhelming.

Born and raised in one of my favourite places in the world. Prince Edward Island. I’ve been wanting to meet Sheena Russell for ages. And I finally get to in episode 10.  Her popular snack food brand Made With Local is everywhere in Canadian grocery stores. Her bars are delicious, nutritious, and Sheena is like the model of someone who has taken social entrepreneurship. Seriously.  Her innovative business model creates impact in so many ways. It influences how she sources ingredients. Who she partners with and who makes and packages the bars.

 Now I loved how Sheena claims her business. Doesn’t have this traditional founder story with this aha moment. Instead she remained open and all of these experiences, these opportunities have kind of fallen into her lap. It’s been serendipitous.  Like fate, and it’s a great story.

Our conversation led to a moment where Sheena had to shift her mindset. I’ve had a similar shift with my own business. And this mindset is about big box or big grocery.  It’s tempting as a small business to make all of your sales to small businesses and independence and support that. But if you’re really, truly. But if you’re truly looking to make an impact. Mass retail might be the place to go.  Because every time that Sheena sells a pallet of goods to Costco, She supporting that many more Canadian farmers. And the workers in her social impact bakery. Every dollar spent with the big box is a dollar that’s going directly back into our community.

Sheena Russell:  “our bars are all handmade in partnership with social enterprise bakeries that help to train and employ folks who are living with some type of disability or barrier to the mainstream workforce. They’re actually producing these products right. And it creates  this beautiful ripple effect out into  their lives, their families, their communities. So with that, like those two things married, which is the, what it’s made of and the, how it’s made produces this product that has this like very quantifiable, very real social impact that, that goes out in all directions.  I value this and our thousands and thousands of Canadian customers value this, because  they want to nourish their bodies with foods that align with their personal values and their viewpoints in the world. And they have this sense that food, because of all of these things, the food is going to nourish you in a different kind of way than, some other kind of like mass produced bars that are made with kind of meh ingredients it’s a different experience I believe. And that’s what I want people to feel. Like I want people to have this feeling when they’re eating one of our Made With Local real food bars or that it is experience that connects them to their community.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Want to take action now? Here are some tips from this episode.

1. Number one.  Shopping for snacks. You want to avoid things like unpronounceable ingredients and Palm oil. Palm oil is terrible. It’s not healthy for you or the planet. And the industry has contributed to things like the extinction of a number of species.  Mass deforestation. And it’s found in a lot of snack bars. So look out for that.
2. If you’re looking to build a social enterprise business, or a values driven company. Scaling up, isn’t selling out. It’s increasing the size of your impact. So maybe give Costco a chance.
3. If you want to make sure you’re supporting a company that really is creating impact. Look for B Corp certification it’s rigorous and B Corp’s have a legal requirement to the planet and people before profit.  

If you joined us through the first 10 episodes of Cost of Goods Sold. I just like to thank you so much for listening. And helping to amplify the voices of these brands that are really truly making a difference. And if you have the opportunity to share one of these episodes with a friend or a family member of yours that you think could really learn something from this, we would be forever grateful. And I know the brand owners would be. As well. You can access all episodes of the Cost Of Goods Sold podcast on apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Also you can visit thecostofgoodssold.com, where we have show notes and transcripts from each episode. And all of the links and social media profiles of all of the brands featured so if you want to connect with them you can find the links on our website.

 

In today’s episode, we chat with Sheena Russel from Made with Local, the popular CPG brand from the Maritimes. We explore how she’s created clean and simple snack food bars with social impact baked in, we learn how her childhood on a family farm in rural PEI influenced how Sheena sources ingredients, How she’s partnered with social enterprise bakeries, to have her bars handmade by those facing barriers to employment, and why she shifted her mindset to partner with big-box retail, in order to create even more meaningful impact within her community and support more local producers.

If you want to Learn more about Sheena and her nourishing, delicious treats with Social Impact, Baked-In visit https://www.madewithlocal.com/ Looking to try made with local yourself? Find the Real Food Bars and Granola Bar Mix in 1500 grocery stores across Canada. You can follow along with Sheena on her mission to employ & train Canadians experiencing barriers to the mainstream workforce and help build stronger communities on Facebook or Instagram.

Links from this episode

• The Flower Cart Group | Work With Purpose – New Minas
• Cosman and Whidden Honey – Pure Nova Scotia Honey 
• Terra Beata Cranberry Farm
• https://emkaofoods.com/
• About B Corps

Episode Transcript

Jennifer Chua: Hello everyone and welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 10.

In today’s episode, we chat with Sheena Russell from Made With Local.  We explore how she’s created clean and simple snack food bars with social impact baked in. We learn how her childhood on a family farm in rural PEI, influenced how Sheena sources ingredients. How she’s partnered with social enterprise bakeries to have her bars handmade by those facing barriers to employment.  And why she shifted her mindset to partner with big-box retail in order to create an even more meaningful impact within her community.

They’re a staple of packed lunches everywhere they’re found in almost every book bag.  But granola bars have gotten a bad rap in the last couple of years for being full of sugar and Palm oil, preservatives GMOs.  And containing a long list of unpronounceable ingredients. They’re terrible in terms of eco-friendliness, they’re maybe not as healthy as we once thought they were. And conscious consumers have been seeking out alternatives to the heavily processed snack bars. Because no one, myself included, can dispute the convenience and practicality of ready-to-go snacks.

I was delighted to stumble across Made With Local. Hailing from the Maritimes this humble snack brand bar is found in retailers nationwide.  Not only do they make nourishing bars with real ingredients, sourced from local farmers, but each bar has also social impact baked in. Made With Local’s truly innovative business model provides meaningful and exciting work for people who are experiencing barriers to mainstream employment. And their peanut butter Blondie bar it’s to die for. I had the chance to meet with Sheena Russell, the founder and CEO of Made With Local. She’s passionate about supporting small farmers, incredibly bright and speaking with her you’d think you’re catching up with an old friend.

Sheena’s based in the Halifax area, but she was born and raised in rural  Prince Edward island. And moved to Nova Scotia for university, which is where she stayed. And grew Made With Local, from a booth at the Halifax Seaport farmer’s market to being one of the east coast’s, most recognized brands.  Sheena’s upbringing is important to note. Her time spent on her family farm, surrounded by other farmers and producers. And growing up with her very large extended family, you can see how her childhood has influenced the values of the company.

Sheena Russell: I was born and raised in PEI and I was born and raised in a rural community, on a family farm. I’m surrounded by tons of cousins. My mom is one of 13 kids and pretty much all of them live within like a, a few kilometre radius of the farm. Really beautiful and kind of like old-fashioned childhood, honestly, like I think back to the way that we did things like that would have been literally like the nineties and it could have easily been like the fifties or sixties, like, so a really beautiful nourishing, rural childhood. I was raised by parents who were incredibly generous and inclusive and growing up in a big family that like just my immediate family, we’ve got  four kids in my immediate family. So a family of six and then plus a very large extended family, there’s a lot of sharing and a lot of collaboration that happens in that kind of space.

Jennifer Chua: Even back in elementary school, Sheena had what she called an activist sort of energy. She had founded a little environmental group called the green angels and recruited classmates to come with her and pick up litter. She was intensely interested in sustainability, even though she didn’t have the words to describe that at the time.

Sheena Russell:  And I used to like, yeah, be very, very intense to kid about sustainability. Didn’t know that was the word at the time, but like littering and picking up litter and, saving the whales and all the little things, all the things that like a young child perceives to be the biggest, environmental and social issues of, of their time. I was a very passionate kid in, in that space. Yeah, it’s kind of baked in to my, my perception of the world, I guess.

Jennifer Chua: In her late teens, Sheena embarked on what she felt was an absolute epic life, adventure, and moved to Halifax to attend Dalhousie university for environmental science.  It was a huge, huge deal because she was the first of her really large family to travel off island to do post-secondary education. This led to a very cushy, very predictable, but sought after government job, which gave Sheena this space to be bored and get excited about doing something that was more in line with her passion. Which was beautiful nourishing food. And which was sharing the stories of local farmers and food producers. She sat with her boredom and she let her imagination run wild.

But it never really crossed her mind to start a company or be an entrepreneur. Not until Sheena was already in the thick of it.  And when I asked her to share her origin story, Sheena says that she wishes that there was some sort of epic aha moment. But in reality, Sheena and her coworker, Cathy had come together over lunch breaks and gym dates and began to daydream of a project that was fun that gave them something meaningful to do on the weekends. Both food lovers, they had the opportunity and the interest of bringing yummy snacks to the farmer’s market. They began to make snacks that were for busy people on the go, who wanted something better than that very limited selection with those unpronounceable ingredients that you could find at the grocery store at that time.

Sheena’s no longer at the farmer’s market. She now runs her thriving business from an office space in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, which is outside of Halifax.  But that vibrant community of the Seaport area, the public art, the live music it’s never left her. COVID times have been good for business. We’ll chat about that in a bit, but she’s craving that public display of art and culture that’s celebration and live music.

Sheena Russell: Clearly there are much more pressing matters in the world, but I’m really looking forward to times, hopefully where we have lots more of that. I’m like anytime I even think going to a concert, I cry. I cannot wait to be back in the community and taking it all in.

Jennifer Chua: And now that the world is opening up again, Sheena feels hopeful.  She’s looking forward to taking in the sights and sounds of her community again. And be inspired by that real sense of the vibrant community. That was such a big part of the early days of the business.

Sheena Russell: We knew that we could make something delicious and nourishing. And we also realized that we could do it with essentially lots of local ingredients, which was Really becoming a trend that was picking up at that time. Farmer’s markets were becoming way more mainstream. And in Halifax here where we’re based, we were just seeing more and more folks really start to think about who is growing my food and I actually have the option to buy it closer to the source. So with all of those things combined, that really was  the Genesis for, what we thought was just going to be this like fun little side hustle to take on  some weekend stuff. And it clearly kind of took on a mind of its own and as much more than that these days, but it is humble beginnings farmer’s market for two years at a little five foot table. And then very slowly reaching out into little cafes and grocery stores  and that’s where it all started.

Jennifer Chua:  It sounds like you decided to make impact after you decided to make snacks. How did that connection happen?

Sheena Russell: The earliest days of the business  were taken lightly, honestly.  The focus was fun. Food, delicious food. Storytelling and community connection and it wasn’t until I became pregnant with my daughter, Ruthie. In 2014 that I realized, okay, we got to figure out  another business model here because me baking the bars on Monday nights and then packaging them on Tuesdays and then going to the farmer’s market on the weekends is not sustainable with a big giant belly or a newborn. So I got to the point in my pregnancy where I knew that something had to happen for me to be able to continue to pull this business off, but I didn’t actually have a plan.

It Was, I think totally serendipitously an act of fate or whatever you want to call it. One day. I got a phone call from a organization just outside of Halifax, in a place called New Minas,  a social enterprise bakery called the flower cart group. And they reached out and were like, Hey, a couple of different people in the local space have mentioned, we should reach out to you because we’re trying to get our little, commercial bakery up off the ground. And we thought that maybe you would like to partner with us, do you need help? And I was just remembering, sitting in my car and like ugly crying with my eight month pregnant belly and being like, oh my God. Yes. Please help me essentially.  So that was just this like beautiful, wild, serendipitous phone call that seemingly came out of nowhere at the absolute perfect time.

And it was only at that point, two plus years into the business that we really started establishing this innovative model, which we’re best known  for today, which is bringing these beautiful local ingredients from farmers who were like literally up the road from this social enterprise bakery. Bringing the ingredients in hand- making the bars in partnership with these social enterprise bakeries that employ and train folks who are experiencing some type of barrier to the mainstream workforce and creating these snacks, that actually, taste better than anything else out on the market. They’ve got a beautiful, simple ingredients list and have a quantifiable and tangible social impact on the community, around them, which is something, in my continued research, we’re not seeing that  in the energy bar space very much at all through north America.

So I knew that we were onto something really special. The impact piece really has been evolving and it continues to evolve in the business. We’re never just saying, okay, this is good enough, oh, we’re doing enough, good work. We can stop now. That’s really not our MO. It really has been this beautiful evolution as we continue to like partner with new, incredible farmers and food producers and create new social enterprise partnerships. So it’s just something that we’re just doubling down on, year over year in the business and Made With Local turned nine years old, a couple of weeks ago, which is absolutely crazy. So  that’s how that side of things is, has come to be and continues to really guide us.

Jennifer Chua: You have a unique experience in that you grew up surrounded by farmland and farmers and knew people that were creating ingredients, but I’m wondering why do you think it’s so  important.

Sheena Russell: For me feeling like I have a personal connection to the people who grew my food is an incredible thing. It just gives me goosebumps even thinking about it. Like even right now, it brings tears to my eyes. When I think about how, how beautiful it is that  the incredible amount of work that farmers put into bringing their products into the world, like farming is absolute insanity. And if you don’t know a farmer, you like, I’m sure any farmers that are listening to this are like, yep, we got a screw loose because it’s an. Incredibly difficult way of spending your life and your career so there’s just the heart and soul that farmers put into creating these beautiful foods. And then to be able to take it directly from this person who so intimately brought it into the world, in partnership with the earth and their family, and to be able to consume that and literally like, make that food part of my body, taking it into my body and like incorporating that into like the, the literal cells that make up who I am. I don’t know. It’s like really, it’s very intimate. Something that we say in Made With Local is that we like to think about love as an essential nutrient in your food.

It’s a bit of a paradigm shift on, oh,  love is like the ingredient it’s like, of course you add love to your food when you’re making it. But what if we also thought about love as like a literal nutrient to fuel us? Like you think about getting enough, like fat or protein or fiber in your diet?

Like what about if you thought about having love as a nutrient, as a macro in your diet? Right. So I think about that and I think about the high love content of food that comes directly from farmers and food producers  in that way. So that’s why local food matters so much to me, that’s the perspective that I have on local food and also the strength of community that is built when folks prioritize supporting local agriculture and local food systems is incredible, right? It’s a beautiful thing. And the, socioeconomic impact of that and everything, like, there’s just an incredible spinoff from making a choice, which is often like pretty simple of choosing something that’s locally produced over, maybe a slightly more convenient version that’s made. God knows where those are some of the reasons why I feel like supporting local is, is so important. And I think now more than ever again, especially in like a post COVID world feeling that that renewed sense of connection to community is something that I feel like we’re all really hungry for.

Jennifer Chua:  This was all serendipitous. This manufacturer reached out to you, which is an amazing story because usually it’s the opposite. You’re really hunting, you’re searching, et cetera, but you wouldn’t have partnered with them unless you really believed in this concept. Right. So I’m just wondering if you can recall any moments where you realize that giving back was important to you, because it’s clear that you can see with the way you’ve grown this business, that it is. Is there any moments where you realized that you wanted to create change in this way?

Sheena Russell: I will tell you, like I’m not your average entrepreneur or CEO in that I’m, I struggled to be solely financially driven. Like at the end of the day, I’m somebody who’s like very at peace with having just enough and, I’m like comfortable with just enough. And I don’t like get fired up by seeing, dollar signs flying in my eyes.  That’s just not who I am as a person. That again comes from like coming from pretty humble means and rural PEI. Like we, weren’t rich but I still had a beautiful childhood. So that kind of foundation was laid for me from an early age.

And I think the motivation for me to grow my business is so much more fired up by this concept of like innovation and impact than it is on the just sheer dollars and cents side of things, all that to say, you’re not going to grow a business if it’s not making money. So the, the really cool thing that has come from us building out this model over, a pretty gradual period of time from those very earliest days with the flower cart group to now having a much larger impact and footprint is that we’ve been able to figure it a way . Like we’re not a not-for-profit business. We are not a charity, but this is a profitable enterprise  but we’ve also figured out a way to do that and commit to social impact at every available opportunity, whether it be through our supply chain or production partners or whatever.

And that is really unique. And I can say though that I just wouldn’t have cared enough about building a business if it didn’t have this impact side of things, because being an entrepreneur is way too damn hard, and I’m not financially motivated enough to suffer through that if it was only just about the money. So when people say , oh, why did you choose to grow the business in this way? And it’s like, I kind of feel like, I don’t know how to do business any other way, honestly.

Jennifer Chua: Can you give some more insight into how you are different from other brands in your category?

Sheena Russell: Oh my goodness. So many ways.  The number one struggle for me in communicating about Made With Local is that there are too many good things or too many exciting things to talk about in the brand, which sounds ridiculous. But it’s honestly true. We have a really hard time narrowing down our key messages because I can’t pick a favorite child amongst all of the key messages in Made With Local, all of the things we stand for. They’re all equally important to me, On the very fundamental side of things from like the actual product it’s made with ultra simple ingredients, you can literally make our bars probably with the ingredients that you have at home in your own cupboard. Beautiful Canadian grown organic oats. Our bars are sweetened only with beautiful small batch Canadian honey fair trade and organic ingredients like chocolate and coconut that we mindfully source from ethical suppliers, blueberries and apples and just gorgeous ingredients that are really familiar to us here in Canada and are sourced in a way that really connect us as closely as possible to the farmer or producer. For that reason, like we’re not using any ingredients that you wouldn’t be able to find  in your own cupboard. And there are other brands out there that say that they’re made with a hundred percent real food, but then you look at the ingredients list and you’re like, what do I have that thing just hanging out in my pantry? In theory, you can stretch anything to say, yes, it’s real food derived, but like what I have, a jar of that sitting in my cupboard. No. So that’s one thing that’s yeah. Ruffles my feathers a little bit, but that’s, that’s the world of CPG. So yeah, beautiful clean ingredients that we can source right back to where they were made in produced.

And then, the production side of things and not just the, what they’re made of, but the how they’re made is something that is absolutely unique. Not only in Canada, amongst our competitors here, but also in North America and probably beyond based on what I’ve seen is that our bars are all handmade in partnership with social enterprise bakeries that help to train and employ folks who are living with some type of disability or barrier to the mainstream workforce. They’re actually producing these products right. And it creates  this beautiful ripple effect out into  their lives, their families, their communities. So with that, like those two things married, which is the, what it’s made of and the, how it’s made produces this product that has this like very quantifiable, very real social impact that, that goes out in all directions.  I value this and our thousands and thousands of Canadian customers value this, because  they want to nourish their bodies with foods that align with their personal values and their viewpoints in the world. And they have this sense that food, because of all of these things, the food is going to nourish you in a different kind of way than, some other kind of like mass produced bars that are made with kind of meh ingredients it’s a different experience I believe. And that’s what I want people to feel. Like I want people to have this feeling when they’re eating one of our Made With Local real food bars or that it is experience that connects them to their community.

One of my absolute favorite suppliers is a little apiary here in Nova Scotia called Cosman & Whidden Honey  They are literally down the road from the flower carts bakery, like a couple of kilometers down the road. They’re this amazing little family owned apiary. They’ve got, a few staff and hives that they spread out all across the Annapolis valley in Nova Scotia, which is almost kind of like the east coast. Oakenoggen honestly it’s very, very highly productive orchard territory. We make beautiful wines there. So the beehives are rented out to farmers and they are put into these fields to help pollinate, the different crops. And then the honey that comes from that is just, I don’t know. I honestly can barely even talk because when I’m away without getting teared up, because  I adore them so much.

And our relationship with them has. Really they’re the very first honey that we ever used to make. The very first Made With Local bars, and we’ve been making our real food bars here in Nova Scotia with their honey for nine years. Every single one, I don’t think we’ve ever even had to place an order for another brand of honey, even in a pinch, like it’s Tom from Cosman & Whidden and his partner Marianne have come through for us always. I really believe in honey, I’m going to go off in a bit of a honey tangent here. I believe in honey. Being such a beautiful and underappreciated ingredient and sweetener. Like it’s just something that is, there’s something magical about honey  in my eyes. And a lot of people don’t know this, but honey literally never goes bad. Like there have been records of archeologists, like finding liquid honey in ancient Egyptian tombs. And for us, the alternatives in the bar space, what you see competitors using for a sweetener, which you do need in a bar, this is just like basic like bar. Chemistry and physics. You need something sticky to hold it together. So what you often will see is like a brown rice syrup or glucose or whatever.  Something that’s super processed. And we don’t have a sight line on how those ingredients are produced. Right. And yes, for a brown rice syrup or glucose syrup, they’re technically vegan, which I know that there are vegans in the world who have issues with honey. And I, this is a hill I’ll die on that, but, but like, I, I, where are we getting agave? What’s the ethics behind the supply chain on agave syrup? Do you know who’s involved in the farming and harvesting of agave, are they treated properly? Are they paid well? What about brown rice syrup? How’s that being made? Where is it being made? Who’s making it.

I can drive down a couple of kilometers from the road, from our bakery visit Tom and Maryanne. I see the bees. I see the hives. I watched them harvest the honey in their little, barn out back and bottle it. And I take it to our bakery and I put it in our bars and sent it out to Loblaw’s and Sobey’s and all these other grocery stores. Local honey, ethically produced honey, in a small kind of artisanal kind of way is a hill I’ll die on. And that’s what you will get in every Made With Local bar. So honey is a really important part of what we do and who we support and what we make here at Made With Local.

And other awesome of our very earliest day ingredient suppliers would be another local one here to us in Nova Scotia, Terra Beata. They are for another family owned company based in Lunenburg county, in Nova Scotia, which is absolutely gorgeous it is just iconic. They farm cranberries and they dry them onsite. They also source blueberries and apples and cherries from around the Maritimes and dry them at their facility there. So we’ve been using Terra Beata as cranberries. Again, since very day one. Dave and Evelyn Ernst are the owners and the founders and owners of Terra Beata. And there was one day, years ago.  I was trying to figure out if there was an opportunity for them to start doing some co-packing for us, for a dried mix. Cause they having equipment where they can, put dry stuff in a hopper and it filters down a ways into a pouch, which is great. So we were trying to figure out from them if we could have them start making this product for us. So I’ve got like little, my daughter Ruthie in the little baby bucket seat, like on the floor, in their like, Production facility. And it was nothing for me to like drive down there with my baby and like bring her along.

And in the earliest days  Evelyn was somebody who, would answer call for me on anything like business and grocery related, because you can find nationally there are beautiful cranberry juices and dried fruit at Sobey’s and Loblaws, I believe. And so I would talk to her and be like, how do I get a UPC code? Like, how does this work with this big grocery store?  All of these things that have nothing to do with cranberries. But she would always  be like, call me, we’ll hop on a call and she would talk me through it. And now. They continued to be even bigger business than Made With Local, but we’ve caught up a little bit since those early days.

And these are just like, so much deeper relationships than just in some companies or some CPG brands where your supply chain is literally like cut the distributor a PO for the stuff you need. And it shows up on a pallet, a week later, like our relationships with our suppliers are really like family. And, and the coolest thing that I just feel really proud about in a growth of the company has been that, bucking the trend that a lot of people would expect, which would be growth of the company means, more streamlining of our suppliers, and not to say that we aren’t more efficient than we used to be. We absolutely are, but we’re constantly looking for new opportunities to work with new, interesting suppliers to be part of this family. We’re not trying to consolidate into one distributor and get everything on one purchase order.

That’s not at all what we’re doing much to the chagrin of our operations team. They’re like, oh my God, please. Again, one of the reasons, and one of the things that like literally gets me out of bed in the morning is the opportunity to partner with people who are making beautiful food and make their beautiful food, part of our beautiful food and to be able to share that story. It’s just, yeah, it, it just makes me, it makes me so happy and just fills my cup and is like the whole reason why we’re doing this.

Jennifer Chua: What does it mean to you to be a certified B Corp?

Sheena Russell:  I think we are the first certified bar company,   we are absolutely amongst the leaders in the B Corp movement here in, food products in Canada. Especially in the world of food, there are so many different certifications you can get, right.

There’s organic there’s gluten-free and those are important for certain folks. Absolutely. There’s, non-GMO, there’s all different kinds of ones. You name it, there’s a food certification for it. For me, the one that aligns most deeply with the values of Made With Local, and for me personally, is the B Corp certification, because  it’s about so much more than just, being organic or being certified, this, that, or the other thing from a nutrition perspective. It’s a holistic certification on the entire business, not just about one ingredient or not just about an allergen it’s every single part of the company is combed through with a fine tooth comb, I will say.  Through that process scored rigorously against  the most ethical and sustainable companies in the world. Especially two years ago when we first got certified, we’re quite a small brand by, for all intents and purposes, but I wanted for us to go through this process so that we could continue to prove our deep commitment to doing things a different way and to using our businesses as a force for good in the world, because that’s what being a B Corp is all about is thinking like, okay, we’ve built this business and I’m going to literally get in the driver’s seat and use it as a vehicle for positive change.

I hate to break it to everybody, but people aren’t going to care about keto in five years, it’s going to be proven that it’s not good for you. And I think that there’s lots of people already understand that, sorry to people who love keto, not to paint with a broad stroke. It works for some people, but not for the number of people who think they should be doing it. These types of things like they come and go, but sustainability and and committing to conduct your business in a way that is deeply aligned with the change we need to see in society as a whole is something that absolutely will not go away and it’s only going to continue to hopefully be something that we see more and more brands come on board with.

Jennifer Chua: You have a newer product, this one kilogram granola bar mix, which is exclusively at Costco, can you walk me through how that happened? How you got into Costco, what that partnership looks like?

Sheena Russell:  I will say something I am known for in the company is digging my heels in, on mass grocery because  I used to believe that it felt like it was kind of a sellout kind of thing. Like we’re this indie brand commitment to all things, grassroots and local. And like, what does that say about us if we’re out in the biggest grocery stores or corporations  in the country, right?

But what we come back to as a team, what I continually remind myself of is that when you build a business that is engineered to create social impact, like Made With Local, our growth means you’re growing your impact. So it’s not about me anymore, right? Like the, my ego needs to step aside, or my fear needs to step aside and say, the opportunities that are held for this company in the future with growth are not mine to stifle because I just like, and turning my nose up at a certain like mass whatever opportunity. So I fought Costco against the notion of Costco for a long time. And then then COVID hit and the world decided that they loved baking all of a sudden love baking. And we’ve been making this granola bar mix product in some way, shape or form for years. And it’s been like pushing a Boulder up the side of a mountain.

Like people just like weren’t getting it. Or like, I don’t know. It was just, it’s a brand new kind of product, right? It’s an innovative product. It’s like a cake mix for granola bars. We have cake mixes, we have muffin mixes. Everybody knows these things and has them in their cupboard, but people haven’t historically you’ve been buying a granola bar mix even though like, why not?

So it’s this really cool product that We had a lot of trouble getting off the ground for a long time, but we saw this opportunity with the worlds starting to spend more time at home and spend more time baking and getting back to meal prepping  and  just being at home more often, this opportunity for specifically this format, like a jumbo sized bag, being something that people might be excited about. So our director of sales here, Christine, she started talking to the Costco buyer over LinkedIn, honestly, a year before we launched. They are pretty collaborative with brands, right. They know what their members like. We know what we have to offer them in terms of  the different types of flavors and the organic certification and all of these things that we said that we could bring to the table. And we effectively co-created this unique product for them, which is our one kg version of the granola bar mix in a chocolate chip flavor, which is so yummy.

And from the earliest conversations that Christine was having with Costco until the day that we sent out that very first chunk of pallets to them, it was,  almost exactly a year, like maybe a little closer to 13 months, actually, it was a very long process, but it’s been wild. And the keep using ripple effect is I keep saying that, but it’s just like a theme that happens in the business, always is we’re seeing this ripple effect out from Costco, but all of a sudden now Loblaws and Sobey’s and the other stores that have been carrying our smaller bags, the 300 gram bags for like a year plus at this point, can’t keep it stocked. So it went into Costco and it’s kind of like a granola bar mix bomb went off and it’s done really, really well despite all odds, like we launched into Costco literally the same week that Ontario stopped their selling of any non-essential goods. So food counts is in essential good, of course, but Costco’s as like from a warehouse perspective, it was like, they were in complete disarray and had to change everything about how they were doing business at that same time. So we actually launched into Costco like that same week. Against all odds, it’s been an incredible opportunity for our business and  the impact of this, of this program with them has been incredible, right? We just on their very first order had to purchase 20,000 killograms of Canadian grown and produced ingredients.

And every single one of those 30 plus thousand bags on that first order that we packed for Costco, we’re hand packed at a social enterprise  in the GTA in Toronto. Again, it’s being able to tell those stories and to come back to that, that route of impact and connection for me is the one that is like, right, what else can we do with Cosco? Like, it might seem like it, it runs counter course to who we are and what stand for. But our mission is to bring these beautiful,  impact focused, nourishing, delicious foods to as many people as we possibly can. And there are different vehicles to do that. And Costco for sure is one of them.

Jennifer Chua: what are the costs associated of not supporting our local producers? Like why do you think it’s so important?

Sheena Russell:  I mean, I don’t have any like quick data points that I can throw at you in terms of like the opportunity cost of people. Just not consciously choosing to buy local when they have the opportunity to o. I guess for me, I go back to the, the sense of connection and love, honestly, that I experience as a human, when I know more about the food that I’m putting in my body and that I have an emotional or personal connection to the food that I’m putting in my body that like literally like nourishes and I’m gonna get weird again. Literally like nourishes my soul. It honestly does. And I think about the opportunity cost of that, like every time you have a meal and again, like we’re busy, I’m a mom, like I’m not sitting down making these like beautiful, heritage heirloom lettuce salads three times a day. I’m not at all. Don’t get me wrong. I’m still like, live in the busy mom life eaten Annie’s Mac and cheese a couple of times a week. So don’t get the wrong impression. But there is an opportunity. Every time we sit down to create a meal for ourselves to, to connect right, to connect to the community, to connect to the farmers.

I think the biggest loss on a personal and community level that we missed by not doing that is, by disengaging or by feeling like your decisions don’t matter because every single dollar that you spend, every single meal that you choose to feed yourself and your family if you’re privileged enough to really be able to make a choice about the food that you bring into your home, which is a privilege, let’s say that too,  every opportunity is a vote for the world that you will want to live in. You’re casting a vote for the world that you want to live in, right? So by spending your money on the bag of local carrots, instead of the ones that you don’t know where they come from, like, it’s a such a simple decision, but it’s literally like every time like that reaffirmation of like I’m casting a vote for the world that I want to live in.

And I guess this is me kind of coming full circle on not really knowing how to answer this question right off the bat. It’s a wasted vote. Right. You’re wasting your vote. If you are not thinking about, or trying to prioritize choosing a local product or having that connection to the food or any product, really, your body care stuff, the clothing, again, it’s very privileged position to be able to choose to support these things. And I want to just kind of double down on that message because it is but, but for those of us who do have the privilege of being able to choose, we need to use that privilege and that power wisely. To not understand that or not to take advantage of that for me, that’s the big loss that’s the votes are being lost in that, in that space.

Jennifer Chua: I came across a quote on your Instagram page, and I was just wondering if you could comment on it, or if you had any comments on it, where it came from or what it means to you. And so the quote was, it is critical to recognize that the highly processed industrial food we were buying is artificially cheap and that the planet taxpayers and people of the developing world are picking up the tab. Do you remember that one?

Sheena Russell: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that really, that does sum it up.  As especially Western consumers, nothing, nothing is as cheap as it is. Like you go to Walmart and something’s oh my God, what a great deal, what a smoking deal. That’s amazing. No, it’s not that it’s actually that it was that inexpensive for that product to come to you for $2.97. It’s that there are people along the supply chain bringing that product to the Walmart or whomever (I’m gonna pick on Walmart. Cause I feel like they’re one of the worst offenders in this space) who suffered and  they were not compensated appropriately in many different ways. And that cheapness on shelf is only because people down chain were denied access to human rights level stuff. That’s what that boils down to. Right.  These are externalities, like that’s what this is referred to in economics is the externalities of supply chain. We in Made With Local have thought really long and hard about the different types of ingredients and different types of innovation that we’ll bring into the company.

And you’ll notice when you look at our ingredients decks on our products, like we’re not using. I’m going to use air quotes here, kind of like exotic ingredients or super foods. Again, I’m going to air quotes, that super foods that are sourced from countries or communities or from companies rather that have a track record or are perceived in the world to not be treating their supply chain appropriately. We stay away from it because we vote with our dollars right. And Made With Local. And we want to make sure that our dollars are being only put towards products and services that align with our personal values and that don’t continue to exacerbate the inequalities that we see rampant, especially I’m speaking specifically through food food supply, global food supply chain. So, our coconut that we use is certified organic certified fair trade, our cocoa that we are using, our chocolate chips. Our newest supplier that we’re really excited about, we’re soon going to be working with this incredible cocoa and chocolate chip supplier from a Mission BC called EMKAO. It’s a female run independent chocolatier business, where she Ayissi, the founder, she sources beautiful raw cacao products from her family’s from in Cameroon and exports from her family’s farm in Cameroon to British Columbia and produces cocoa and chocolate chips and cacao butter and all of these kinds of value added products.

We will be getting like in our next order of cocoa and chocolate chips, we will be getting directly from Ayissi and a directly from her family from in Cameroon. So really cutting out as many middlemen as possible and going direct to the source and paying a fair price.

Like I hate to break it everybody because food is already as expensive as it is, but it’s not expensive enough. And there are certain people who are getting really rich at the top of the very, very, very, very top of the corporate food system. And there are literally millions and millions of people across the world who are not being compensated remotely appropriately for the work that they’re doing in keeping our global food supply chain rolling.

It’s funny because it’s also like maybe bad business practice in the world of like regular corporate business. But I am thrilled to be referring other brands, other companies to work with my suppliers and to partner with social enterprise because I’m like, if our mission is to be to be growing this sector or to be growing the footprint of businesses who are doing good in the world, then like, it is not our job to put up the walls and say nobody else can work with these suppliers that are suppliers. We want to make sure that  they will always have enough product to, to service us for sure. But like, I want them to succeed too. That’s the whole point right. Is shared prosperity.

Jennifer Chua: Do you have a moment that stands out in your mind where you realize that this business was going to be profitable and it was going to go forward?

Sheena Russell:  It still feels like, like there’s almost every day, we’re  I can’t believe we’re pulling this off. Like it’s almost kind of the opposite, it’s working and I mean, I feel like I have a habit of in these kinds of interviews, making it sound like we’re just like, everything’s tickety-boo and it’s just all happened to us and it’s been all magic. it’s super hard work, but we have an amazing team and an amazing community under us, which is also like the life force of Made With Local, which is our community of farmers and food producers and customers.  We have customers around us who’ve been literally buying our bars since 2012 with the Halifax Seaport farmer’s market and they still do to this day. It’s incredible. So I feel like maybe it’s them who convince us, who we’re like, yes. I’m obsessed with these. All my friends are obsessed with these. This is amazing. Never stop doing what you’re doing.  So I feel like that chorus comes from the outside.  Costco was a big deal. Like Costco was one of those, those kind of feather in your cap. Not that it was just a feather in our cap. It wasn’t just kind of like a vanity thing that we did at all. It was an enormous boost to our business and a huge opportunity. And we’re so grateful for it. But it was one of those things like, oh, wow, okay. We’re not at the farmer’s market anymore, baby.  It was a huge, huge leap. And one that we, again, we saw it be like a net positive, not only within the context of Costco, but also for the whole rest of the business. It really started putting us more on the map. And we’re in about 1500 grocery stores all across Canada now, Loblaws Sobey’s save on foods, Calgary, co-op tons of little independents, like we’re in the lion’s share of grocery stores. And that really helps you feel like, okay, we didn’t just get lucky and land a listing at like one grocery store it’s everywhere.

And that feels incredible. So those are, the achievements that we’ve had in the last couple of years, especially that that make sure to reassure us that we’re on the right path and that people, people want what we’re selling, people want, what we make and people value what we do. And that just, continues to push us to go ever deeper and deeper into our values and, and double down on what we’re doing.

Jennifer Chua:  I’m going to be honest with you that we’ve also had those struggles when it comes to big box or anything like this.  A dramatic mindset shift to say, no, the better I do here, the better of the impact I can have.  It’s a tremendous shift. It took me a lot longer, I think. And it sounds like it took you, but it’s true. Were there any mistakes that you think you made along the way or things that. Now that you’re here and you look backwards at your journey here. Is there anything that you would’ve changed?

Sheena Russell: I wouldn’t absolutely erase any experience that happened because like, I know it’s cliche as hell, but it’s, you learn absolutely invaluable stuff from major screw ups in a business. I probably would have shut a couple of things down a little sooner than I let them drag. There’s been times where, a certain partnership, for example, like we just wanted to make it work so badly and a partnership with with another bakery that we really wanted to get off the ground. And on paper, it just made so much sense. And I was like, this is how we’re going to scale this company. We’re scaling the second social enterprise and it’s going to be incredible. And there were just so many, not even hints, but like glaring things along the way that that. I should have taken as a sign that this wasn’t the right fit. It was just like our visions and capabilities were misaligned.

You might seem like we’re kind of a, an overnight success we’re absolutely not. Like we’ve been working hard at growing this company for almost a decade now, which is wild. So there’ve been things like that where I wouldn’t erace the experience entirely. I would have just probably, pulled the chute a little bit sooner.

Change is incredibly painful. And the pain, I think, in the last year or so has been felt disproportionately by our marginalized communities, black indigenous people of color, the two-spirit LGBTQ  community.  The uprising racially and otherwise that’s happened in this last year has been so overdue. And I am, despite how painful it’s been for these communities. So hopeful now that there is going to be real change right in our generation and also for the generations to come.  I think about my girls and like the type of world that I want them to grow up in. And I am really hopeful.

Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Sheena and her nourishing delicious treats with social impact baked in visit madewithlocal.com. Looking to try Made With Local yourself, find the real food bars and the granola bar mix in 1500 grocery stores across Canada. You can follow along with Sheena on her mission to employ and train Canadians, experiencing barriers to the mainstream workforce and help build stronger communities on Facebook or Instagram at made with local.

 

 

In today’s episode, we chat with Megan Takeda-Tully, from Suppli and learn about how she’s taking on the challenge of takeout waste. We learn what the costs of our single-use plastic and convenience obsessed culture really are, How viewing a documentary during a team meeting led Megan from boardroom to bicycle – collecting last night’s stainless steel takeout containers across Toronto’s east end, How Suppli bridges the gap between the local restaurants and the zero-waste crowd, and why she thinks that converting to reusable food service containers makes just as much sense economically, as it does environmentally.

If you want to learn more about Megan and her mission to make single-use takeout containers a thing of the past. visit https://www.mysuppli.ca/  In Toronto? Sign-up takes 2 min, and the list of restaurant partners is growing every day. You can follow along with Megan and help tackle takeout waste, and support your local restaurant while living zero-waste on Facebook or Instagram .

Links from this episode:

 

Poma Rosa – the Best Latin American Restaurant in Toronto
Agri-Food Analytics Lab at Dalhousie University in Halifax
Why carrying your own fork and spoon helps solve the plastic crisis – National Geographic Magazine
Fast food increases exposure to a ‘forever chemical’ called PFAS – National Geographic Magazine
Eat your food, and the package too – National Geographic Magazine
‘So much waste’: How can we cut down on food-delivery plastic? – TVO
The fight against single-use plastics has been sidelined by COVID-19 — but activists aren’t giving up – CBC
6 ways to do takeout — without the waste – CBC
Canada one-step closer to zero plastic waste by 2030 – Environment and Climate Change Canada
Post-pandemic, nearly half of Canadians intend to order food online weekly – Canadian Grocer

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 07

In today’s episode, we chat with Megan Takeda-Tully from Suppli and learn how she’s taking on the challenge of takeout waste. We learn what the cost of our single use plastic and convenience obsessed culture really are. How viewing a documentary during a team meeting led Megan from boardroom to bicycle collecting last night’s stainless steel takeout containers across Toronto’s East End, how Suppli bridges the gap between the local restaurants and the zero waste crowd. And why she thinks that converting to reusable food service containers makes just as much sense economically as it does environmentally.

A couple of weeks ago, I learned about Suppli from the owner of my favorite local restaurant. Poma Rosa. It’s family owned. They serve up Venezuelan eats coffee based treats, usually with their preschooler in tow.  It’s the kind of place that we are all eager to support after record long lockdowns. Immediately after learning about Megan’s business, I was struck by the genius of the idea.

It’s easy at first to see how Suppli supports environmental initiatives, but I didn’t consider the impact on the city’s budget for waste management. And I certainly didn’t understand at first all of the benefits for the consumers or for the restaurants offering Suppli.  Not surprisingly during these lockdowns, we’ve become even more dependent on single use plastic throughout the pandemic.

Some stats suggest that it’s increased by 250 to 300%. Masks and gloves have played a huge part of course, but more so we’re living in an increasingly convenience obsessed world.  And the cost of this convenience is a considerable increase in packaging.

Between fast food delivery, apps, and meal kits, 4.2 million more Canadians are ordering food online. This is up from the pre pandemic average with 45% of Canadians using these services weekly over the last year.  And the dramatic increase is for a number of reasons. Staying safe at home, supporting our local restaurants,  mandatory self isolations. Of course.

And the overwhelm that has come from trying to work from home deal with zoom overload, pandemic, stress, and homeschool. Life in COVID times , many more of us just don’t have the energy to prepare a meal of the end of the day.

It’s worth noting that pre pandemic, Canadians were already throwing away 3 million tons of plastic waste with only 9% being recycled.  And the majority of takeout containers are still made of styrofoam and black plastic, which are non-recyclable in most parts of Canada,most ending up in landfills, along with billions of plastic utensils and about 29,000 tons of plastic food waste end up in our natural environment.

Upping the recycling programs? It’s more productive to look into solutions to reduce waste rather than relying on recycling because it won’t solve our issue either. Recycling requires a lot of energy, water and transportation. Down cycled plastics are shredded, melted, and turned into other goods, but those also eventually just end up in landfill. And plastics are made from oil, natural gas non-renewable resources.

And if all of this impact on the environment, isn’t enough to make us reconsider our takeout habits, national geographic magazine reports that takeout packaging increases exposure to forever chemicals called PFAS. These long lasting chemicals can seep into food and build up in our bodies. They make packaging resistant to water and grease, which makes them the perfect choice for disposable takeout and fast food packaging.

A study conducted on 400 types of food wrappers and containers found that half contain these forever chemicals. And they were found in the blood of 70% of the survey participants. They also leach into groundwater and go straight into our drinking water systems.

I have all these statistics and resources collected with more of this information available on our website and in the show notes.  They’re really worth a read.

I definitely feel some guilt when I unwrap my lunch to go. And a decade ago, back when I was in the corporate world, I fought hard for compostable containers at the salad bar, thinking that compostable was the answer. And my friend, Arron, from episode 04? He would dutifully bring along glass Tupperware to every lunch out, ordering his food for dine-in and packing it up himself for the trip back to the office.

I didn’t really consider the enormousness of the situation or the full impact of my choices. And certainly other than lugging my reasonable travel mug with me, I did nothing to make change in this area. And now when things are really busy, I often won’t think twice about some takeout here and there. Even if I am contributing to the problem.

But there is hope. Entrepreneurs like Megan are developing innovative products and services to solve some of the issues surrounding waste  with solutions designed to protect the environment from plastic pollution. And our cities are taking note. Vancouver and Toronto both say that reducing single use plastics is a priority and they’re taking steps to improve how we manage plastic waste and investing in these solutions. Vancouver jumped on board these initiatives after reporting that currently, disposable food and beverage containers and plastic utensils are making up nearly half of the garbage they collect from public bins. Megan points out that reducing takeout waste is advantageous financially to our cities, too.  We can reduce waste through more circular economy. We can reduce 1.8 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions per year. And we can create approximately 42,000 jobs across the country. And that is food for thought.

Megan grew up in Toronto. She spent a lot of time outside in the urban environment as a child. Seeing garbage littering the streets. I mean, it’s part of city life. But Megan remembers noticing it. And on trips up to cottage country, she’d be collecting litter and cleaning up her environment. Cause she’s a clean and organized person. She’s modeling this to her two young children, and she’s happy to see that they followed in her footsteps.

Megan Takeda-Tully: growing up in Toronto, obviously we’re better than other cities, but we, we have our challenges with waste. And when you, walk or walk along a waterway or visit a campground and there’s garbage on the ground, that’s, it’s never nice to see.

Jennifer Chua: Megan also benefited from seeing behaviors modeled by the adults in her life. She played competitive sports growing up. And feels really lucky to have had such great mentors. And now as an adult herself, Megan is a confident, positive person and she surrounds herself with people that support her vision for the future.

Megan Takeda-Tully: I’ve always preferred to take the path less traveled, it’s more challenging, to me it’s more rewarding as well. And I think you can really push, push expectations and all that sort of thing. And I think, growing up and even now, I’ve always surrounded myself I think with people that are willing to support my dream versus those that just sorta knock you down. And not that I haven’t come across those, but I probably don’t look for follow up conversations with those individuals.  I think, I think those are  big pieces and I think also working with entrepreneurs and seeing what they are doing and, obviously the missions behind what they’re working on, but also the ability to scale something and grow something that’s really, truly impactful. I think, that’s very inspiring for me.

Jennifer Chua: Megan has a background in traditional finance. That’s what she went to university for and where she spent the majority of her working life. But what’s interesting is how her career has progressed. Megan started out with a big bank, a public entity. Moved to a privately-owned larger company and then to a smaller nonprofit. Impact investing, working with entrepreneurs.

Over time, Megan began to really try to align her values with her work and it was becoming more and more clear that she wanted to create change with a business of her own.

Megan Takeda-Tully: My,  last role was working with innovators, entrepreneurs all over the world to help build out  business models to tackle social challenges, the sustainable, scalable business models to tackle social challenges. I needed myself to be running the business, building it out, and that’s where I have so much passion. Instead of being on the investor side, I’m obviously now on the entrepreneur side. And I find it just so energizing and rewarding.

Jennifer Chua: Megan is motivated by waste. The excess and unnecessary waste. One day back when she was working in the financial sector, one of her directors called a team meeting. Megan can recall why she’s sure it was related to a challenge that they were facing at the time.  Her director wanted to show the team a short documentary. He was from India and the documentary he showed Megan and her colleagues was about the Tiffin lunchbox system.  It’s an incredibly complicated system of delivering hot and home cooked meals to workers in offices around urban centers. It’s efficient, seemingly impossible. And those delivering the Tiffins make very little mistakes. It’s . Inspiring.

Megan Takeda-Tully: The documentary he showed us was about the Tiffin lunchbox system in India. And I’m pretty sure there was some other message or reason that he showed it to us that was related to my job at the time. But what I took away from it was, wow, this is an incredible system. Look at what they have in place using stainless steel containers and obviously a lot of logistics management, but to be able to serve meals in reusable containers. From then on basically take out was ruined for me with single use containers. So like it’s so preventable. It’s so unnecessary. So we should have something like this and this was, seven plus years ago. So you know, this concept was something that’s been kicking around in my mind for a long time. But I’d say that was like a big that stuck with me for years and years. And the concept  of Suppli was, is  inspired by tiffin.

Jennifer Chua: The seed had been planted a long time ago with the discovery of the tiffin and their system, but what’s the story about actually coming up with the idea and then moving this idea into an actual business.

Megan Takeda-Tully: I always laugh when I tell this story, we have a close group of friends that we sit around dinner with, or we used to pre COVID. And we we’d pitch,  different ideas to each other, so usually it just sort of casually. But there are a couple of sort of  entrepreneurs in the group. And this was like six plus years ago. I pitched this idea for a reusable takeout container service. And they hated it. Like they thought it was a terrible idea. They’re like, well, I just don’t see how it’ll work. And they were like, wow, i like the black plastic. Cause then if I lose it, it doesn’t matter. I didn’t necessarily agree with them, but I understood that perhaps the market wasn’t ready. And then I was hanging out with the same group a couple of years ago, and the same people were complaining about a bunch of the single use packaging that they got from some of these meal delivery kits and juice kids and all this, all these, and I was laughing inside because I was like, okay, well the market seems ready for this now.

And so. I had just had my son, my second child. Not that I didn’t have enough to do already with two kids, but I had a bit of a break from my job. And so, I’m a person that kind of as a hobby, my mind’s always running. And so I thought, you know what, like, I’m just going to kick the tires on this because I would really feel complacent. I sort of had a view to how this might be set up and I think I’d feel complacent if, no one had solved it yet and I had a bit of an idea of how it might work. So I started kicking the tires on it and kind of one thing led to another. And here we are today.

Jennifer Chua: That’s really funny that you went back to the same people though, and they finally had the, like, they sparked the aha moment that you had.

Megan Takeda-Tully: Yeah.

Jennifer Chua: When you began to explore take out food waste a little bit more, did you find anything surprising?

Megan Takeda-Tully: It was interesting. When I spoke with restaurants, I think a lot of people assume that because restaurants are using single use containers that. They don’t care about the environment and that that’s not a priority for them. The reality is, is that the restaurant business is so cost sensitive. It’s such a low margin business.  Despite wanting to do what they can for the environment, sometimes even the more environmentally friendly single use option. They’re too expensive for some of these restaurants. Right. And if it’s between like surviving or not, then they kind of have to survive. But if there’s an alternative that works with them as Suppli aims to do and really partner and understand what their pain points are and try and solve those in a way that’s cost-effective for them and really that we have buy-in from them on the model. I thinkthere’s a lot to be gained there.

And so that’s one thing I learned.  A how really truly sensitive restaurants are  to cost, but B would be that, I like some other consumers thought, I don’t know if restaurants are really super passionate about the environment. But I can tell you from firsthand experience, they are like, we have restaurants that unprompted go out and pitch other restaurants on this. Cause they’re like, this is the way of the future. You need to be on board, look at the damage we’re doing to our environment otherwise. So that was, I mean, that was a nice learning from my initial conversations as I was kind of, exploring the,idea and the concept.

Jennifer Chua: COVID times everyone’s dying to support their local restaurants. We’ve had these takeout Tuesday initiatives,and everyone is rallying behind the local takeout, places in their neighborhoods. Right. And even if they’re offering the quote more environmentally friendly options, what are the costs associated with our, take out obsession.

Megan Takeda-Tully: I’m not trying to ruin take out for those that are still using single use containers, but things to consider. So, in terms of the, even the eco-friendly containers the fiber-based stuff at the end of the day, it has to go into the garbage, the landfill bin. Right. And most of them break down over time, probably better than plastic. But the challenge is that when it ends up in our landfills, it ends up breaking down without oxygen, the presence of oxygen, which means that it can actually give off greenhouse gases when it does so. Which is, is the same problem we face with food waste, right? When it ends up in landfill or it isn’t actually properly composted, it gives off greenhouse gas emissions.  So that’s a big challenge with those kinds of fiber based single use. And the other piece on the eco-friendly kind of plastic equivalents that are bio-plastics or whatever, those can’t be recycled and then same challenge. They usually end up in the landfill breaking down. Or not in a similar way.  That’s kind of the, the challenge with some of the more eco-friendly products, I guess, but taking it up to just like a really high level. So by 2023, the global takeout industry is expected to reach $150 billion.

That’s huge. But if you do like back of the napkin math on that, we’re looking at. Enough packaging, single use packaging from takeout that would stack 15,000 times higher than now to Everest every year.  So it’s huge. Right. And this like many other things, if we don’t come up with a solution,  we’re really shooting ourselves in the foot from an environmental perspective. Like it’s just not sustainable.

I love that you touched on the economic perspective in terms of supporting local businesses, because that’s the other piece that I think people don’t tie as much in terms of like the impacts, but I think the number of messages we’ve gotten from, or we’ve received from consumers saying, thank you so much for creating this, I really, really want to support my local businesses And local restaurants, but I honestly, I had to either significantly reduce or stop ordering takeout because.  I couldn’t deal with the guilt from all the packaging. I mean, that happens if not everyday, every other day, we received messages like that.

And so if we’re able to bring those people back into market and. Be able to support their local restaurants. There’s really important economic implications for our small local businesses. And so, I love that you brought that up and that’s something I like to highlight too, because it, it makes a difference for our communities. When we think about things on a small scale, too.

Jennifer Chua: A lot of these restaurants won’t accept, your takeout containers from home or your glass containers that you’ve brought in and that’s completely understandable, especially in times of COVID that they don’t want to give that risk to their employees or whatnot. Can you explain a little bit about what Suppli actually is?

Megan Takeda-Tully: The Suppli containers that we use are stainless steel basis with silicone lids. And so the options you’ll usually see are either like a more robust plastic or stainless steel, and you can get double-walled or single walled stainless steel. We have single walled, A because it’s cheaper B it’s more environmentally friendly and it’s lighter to transport, which obviously has environmental impacts as well. And, the reason for choosing that stainless steel is really kind of like best in class for cleanliness.  It’s the easiest to clean. It goes through the industrial dishwasher really nicely. It also can be 100% recycled at end of life.  If you use plastic, it’s well, A not as durable, but B yes while it can be recycled. I, even if you’re taking it back to recycle it, it can’t be recycled for food use. Like you can’t recycle it into another takeout container. Right. You have to have Virgin materials for that.   I kind of asked myself,  you know, do I want to be producing a whole bunch more plastic? At the end of the day, microplastics are the result anyways. I just didn’t feel comfortable with that. And so stainless steel allows us to a hundred percent recycle indefinitely. So that was a big, big draw for that. And and then the silicone lids they can’t be 100% recycled. They get downcycled, but  to me, they’re a friendly, friendlier materialthan plastics because they don’t break down into such small particles. So there are other sort of considerations and that could geek out on lots of container stuff, but that’s that’s kind of like the the quick and dirty on the containers.

Jennifer Chua: So if every household in Toronto ordered takeout and they were using Suppli containers, say once a week, instead of single use plastics, What kind of impact do you think that would have on the environment? Like how many takeout containers are we talking?

Megan Takeda-Tully: We have another quick and dirty estimate. So in Toronto, numbers estimate that there’s around 39 million takeout meals every year. Okay. So 39 million takeout meals, and maybe you have an average of, we use an average of three containers per meal, but to be honest, like there are probably more containers, especially when you think about the little condiment containers and everything.

So if you think about that, the majority of that heading to landfills, we only really recycle 9% of the materials, it’s a lot of wish cycling, unfortunately. And so think about that all ending up in landfills. I mean,  that’s a massive amount of garbage. And so, it’s in the interest of the city to, from a waste management perspective.

I mean, we’re essentially freeing up pieces of their balance sheet. uh, For us, I think it’s working with the  different groups in the ecosystem to understand the benefits from a sustainability perspective and an economic perspective, to be able to, serve more than more than the share that we’re doing now that 39 million. Right. So I think we can start to move the needle, even if we’re at, 2%, 4% and grow ourselves up – our target is really to, to hit that 39 million.

Jennifer Chua: If I’m a small business owner, so I’m a restaurant owner and I want to partner with Suppli. How does that work?

Megan Takeda-Tully: So right now it’s, it’s pretty simple. We essentially stock you with containers. You add a menu item to your point of sale machine and any other online order platform that you’d like to offer it through. Right now we charge aflat fee of 99 cents per order. And and then you just report the orders to us on a daily basis. We’re actually streamlining pieces of this. So, thinking out to the future,  there’s some work we’re doing over the next couple months to sort of streamline and build out the digital and physical infrastructure to be able to  move this. City-wide and then kind of beyond that in the next couple of years as well.

Jennifer Chua: And for the takeout consumer, how do they interact with Suppli? How does that work on their end?

Megan Takeda-Tully: So consumers just go to our website to create a free account. It takes about honestly, 15 to 20 seconds, and then they can go ahead and order from any one of our partner restaurants. If they’re ordering online, they add Suppli containers, menu item to their cart, the same way they would add any other item and they just leave their phone number in the notes section.

They get their food packaging, Suppli containers. And then we ask people to rinse andreturn to one of our local drop-off points in a week. So those are listed on our website, but we’ve tried to make them pretty accessible. And you’ll see them in our, some of our partner restaurants, as well as mission aligned, coffee shops and grocers.

Jennifer Chua: In terms of sanitization, what steps are you taking with these reusable takeout containers to make sure that they’re clean and safe.

Megan Takeda-Tully: The cleaning and sanitization process for. Dinnerware, dishware, all that sort of stuff in the food industry is pretty standardized. So we use an industrial dishwasher. It goes through kind of the same, they’re all Ecolab certified. They go through the same cleaning and sanitization cycles.

Pretty much any industrial dishwasher you’ll see on the market. You have to have a certain mix of chemicals. It has to get up to 180 degrees to, to make sure everything is sanitized. And and then they’re kind of ready to go and we have spot our process has spot checking as well. But yeah, it’s, it’s people have asked People have asked whether what we’ve changed to ensure that, in the time of COVID that everything is properly cleaned and sanitized.

And I tell them like, not a whole lot in the process, because it was already pretty robust. Like it’s we’re not, we’re not doing anything differently. Like no one wanted cold germs on their, stuff before or any other germs. So the process was designed to kill those germs and make sure they weren’t present.

So, yeah, I, I think, I think it’s just being really transparent about these pieces and how the process works. No one’s ever been so interested in dishwashing as they have been now. So just making sure that we’re offering that proactively and to be honest, that that really hasn’t been it hasn’t been like a massive concern for people, at least that we’ve heard from.

Jennifer Chua: When you finally took the leap and started this business, was there any moment where you just looked around and said, I can’t believe it, but this is going to take off.

Megan Takeda-Tully: When we did our soft launch, we launched in just two postal codes with four restaurants and I was watching our consumer sign-ups after I’d put out a few teasers to some Facebook groups and whatever. And I remember being so excited when we hit like the hundred Mark for consumer accounts and And I think, some of that was great to see, obviously in the first few months that people were actually ordering and we worked through some of the kinks and that sort of thing.

And then in January of last year, we launched more broadly, like basically opened it up to everyone with obviously still a focus in the East end and our order volume continued to go up and does continue to go up. Which yeah, to me is like, I constantly see it going up and up, which is amazing. We started  to have restaurants reaching out to us. So a lot of inbound requests, which also was amazing. I got requests from other countries all over the world to bring this to, to their cities and that sort of thing, which obviously we’re not quite ready for that yet, but that’s the intent.

At the beginning of 2021, when we started to see people really post about it and convey the same things that we felt when we were starting this up, for example, like, thank you so much for starting this up because. I couldn’t deal with all the single use waste. I will now order take out again, the number of messages we got from that perspective was super, super validating. And then obviously watching the number of orders and the number of signups  tick up along with that was was great.

Jennifer Chua: The restaurants that were the early adopters. So the restaurants that signed on in the beginning, I’m just wondering what kind of restaurants were they? Were they like the small family owned business, or can you give me an idea of what kind of restaurants leaped on right away?

Megan Takeda-Tully: You know what it’s such a variety and I will say too upfront, like I just, I love our restaurant partners. They are so awesome and supportive. I’ll talk about the first five.  There wasa high volume takeout, Japanese style fried chicken spot. And then there was  anowner run. I guess it’s like friends and family run. Indian restaurant, and then we had a small local Ethiopian food shop and then a caterer middle East caterer and then our fifth partner was the largest caterer across Toronto and maybe in the country. So we’ve actually had quite a mixture, I would say more so, closer to the owners of smaller. Shops. And I think that has really been appreciated by our consumers because they’d like to support the smaller, smaller businesses and those with a bit of a story behind them. And I think for us, it was really helpful because we got to interact directly with the owners, get their feedback, whether it’s positive or negative, so we can make shifts in our model to be able to accommodate and get the best product and service that we can out there to scale.

Jennifer Chua: So if you’re a retailer, you’re a small business that deals with any kind of consumable. I mean, really a lot of different people could interact with you and offer this kind of service. Right.

Megan Takeda-Tully: Yeah, I mean, we’ve had requests from caterers. That was definitely a, a big one. We’ve had conversations with food delivery services, prepared meal kids or the prepare yourself meal kits. Some of those groups I think. Yeah, I think all this is super exciting to think about and talk about, we try and stay focused to make sure we get, this one product service right before we, we get scaling kind of outwards. But I think there’s so much opportunity for impact in all these different areas that yeah, that gets us super excited on a, on a daily basis.

Jennifer Chua: Can you outline some more of the benefits to the restaurant or to the caterer to using your products?  Is it only about reducing waste or is it about attracting new customers? What are more of the benefits we’re not thinking of?

Megan Takeda-Tully: Definitely the attraction of new customers. So what we basically aim to do when we speak with restaurants, we say, listen,  we’re looking to try and keep your costs kind of where they are. But increase your revenue substantially. We come with a very loyal group of customers that want to order from restaurants that are in some cases, exclusively on our platform.

We’d say to them, so listen, just to be prepared in your first, the first second week of the launch, you’re going to be really busy. So we’re going to give you this many containers to start, but we’ll come back. We’ll kind of gauge the interest. We’ll come back and we’ll restock you, more frequently than, than usual, just, just in case. And we’ll check in with you. And they’re like, Yeah. yeah. Okay. Okay. No problem. Let’s get a couple of orders here and there. And every single restaurant, I swear, like, they’re like, Oh my gosh, we were really busy.

In some cases we’re driving thousands of dollars in extra revenue per month , for these restaurants. And they come to us and, I think about like the sushi restaurant we onboard and they’re like, what. We were really, really busy and these are all new customers and, they’ve ordered a number of times and like, we’ve done so much more business through this. I feel like they don’t believe us at first, but I think definitely the piece that we try and emphasize aside from obviously the sustainability component is, is the additional revenue we’re aiming to drive.  What we really are conveying to restaurants is aside from the sustainability piece is that we’re looking to drive revenue to you, not just from other people that are  looking to you. Instead of ordering from this other restaurant is people that actually weren’t ordering from any restaurants because they couldn’t deal with the packaging waste and they are now coming back into the market to help support local businesses like yours because you have this offering.

Jennifer Chua: Are you seeing people converting, like I’m assuming that the low waste crowd or the zero waste crowd are immediately interested in this concept, but are you seeing, people who are maybe only slightly sustainably minded starting to really be attracted to these ideas?

Megan Takeda-Tully: My, my biggest proxy for that is my friend group, to be honest. And there are some that are, are pretty sustainably minded and focused, and those that aren’t as much, like it’s just not a big focus for them. But I do see a bit of a shift in terms of those that are really getting interested in, honestly, asking me more questions about things that I never would have  picture them as asking before. And to me that’s a really exciting shift in, in them, but also I think that’s representative more of the community in general, people are just becoming more aware of, what we. Consume the waste that we produce. And I think that that is something that’s really helping boy momentum from this. Once people try. Suppli , the feedback I’ve heard from users is that it’s going to be really hard for them to shift back to ordering from a restaurant that doesn’t have a reusable containers. Cause it’s just, it’s in the experience, right?

Jennifer Chua: When you were building this company, so within your journey, have you encountered any really big challenges?

Megan Takeda-Tully: Oh my gosh. Yeah. It’s interesting. A lot of people say to me Oh, you started this during COVID, that’s such a great time to start this because everyone’s wanting to be more sustainable and I’m like, yeah, the awareness is good. It’s probably a little bit, more so than it would have been without COVID, but yeah. Running a business and starting a business in the middle of a global pandemic is really, really challenging. I think about things from Suppli chain to materials costs, to shipping costs, to even, cleaning and sanitization. One of our partners had to shut down for a while that did the cleaning and sanitization, we were scrambling around on the back end. Luckily we have amazing partners and caters that have. The facilities as well, but it, I’m glad that from the outside looking in, it looks relatively calm and smooth most of the time, but there’s so much related to COVID in general that has made things a little more challenging for us.

January of 2021. I think we were going to announce, I think it was on a Tuesday or something that we were announcing our expansion. So we are offering, the service to everyone across these, these restaurants and right before that my co-founder and I Juliana, we were kind of running through some numbers and thinking, okay, do we have enough containers to, to manage this? It should be okay. We feel comfortable cause we’ll just do a little bit more frequent washing, we were only doing once a week, so we’ll do a couple of times a week at our partner’s place. And that should be good.  That was Sunday, I think, we were having that conversation. On the Monday, our partner called us. And they were like, I’m really sorry, but we haven’t really been operating, there’s no, there are no events and that sort of thing. So we’re actually going to shut down fully for the next several months. And we were like, Oh, great. Okay. So let’s get plan B into action. And so we scrambled to get these pieces into action, right? And then we thought, you know what? We’ve got the shipment of containers coming into support this next launch in a couple of weeks with more restaurants. And so that’ll be great. And then of course, everything is delayed shipping wise, so it was like four weeks delayed. And so we were just scrambling hard to make sure that our restaurants had enough inventory. And, at the same time, orders are ticking up. Number of customers are ticking up and we have the same number of containers and we’re trying to cycle stuff through. So that was, it was very busy. And I just thought, like, there was like constantly things stacking up on that to make it more and more challenging, but you? know what that’s, when you develop your best. Plan B plan C plan D and I think it makes your business actually more resilient to be, to have those pieces in place. There, there are constant examples of when you’re just like, Oh, come on. Like, nothing is simple here.

Jennifer Chua: Have you considered using Suppli at any point to facilitate any other social initiatives? I was just wondering if there was any ideas flickering in your head about any kind of giving back initiatives or getting kids involved or anything like that you wanted to speak to.

Megan Takeda-Tully: Something that I personally am very passionate about is, and have always been passionate about is youth programming and education. I think for Suppli,  it’s not just providing the business, but I think there’s a lot of education needed. Not for, just for kids for, for honestly the, the entire community. And I’m still learning too. But in terms of, what really is the impact of our decisions what are our different options and really actually, what are the results  of these different options in terms of environmental sustainability? And I really truly believe that we have to educate the younger population, our kids to be able to learn these.

I still remember as a kid, a campaign that made sure we, we turned off all our lights. This was in like grade school that we turned off all our lights that we turned off the taps when we weren’t using them. And there were these, things you could stick in your toilet, the toilet canister to make sure that it uses less water. Like, I remember all of that from grade school and I still like that. I always remember, I think, Oh, we need to turn off all the lights. And we teach our kids that, it’s wasteful to just leave the water running and we try and teach that. But, more of that. And I think it really, it sticks with people like kids are sponges, right?

And so if we’re helping educate them at young ages is  to care about these things and to be involved in initiatives. I have so many different ideas and desires to involve the younger generation and, help them to create things that are looking to accomplish the same sorts of things. The educational component, I think I did do one talk actually with with a couple of classrooms at a school, just talking about entrepreneurship and, but also doing it with  A values driven approach. And, again, to the point of, we need to help boy and support dreamers to action on things. And I think, the youth are the most energetic of our population and have so much to offer in that area that that’s definitely an area of passion for me. I just think  if every child of ours was taught that the sky is the limit and it, that is actually true, I think we can make leaps and bounds in a much faster pace than we do now.

Jennifer Chua: So when you see these kids and you interact with them and you interact with the zero waste crowd and you interact with these enthusiastic business owners, are you hopeful for the future?

Megan Takeda-Tully: I’m so hopeful for the future? Yeah, I think, I just think there’s so much we can do, like every morning, I wake up energized because I just think there’s so much opportunity out there. And I think other people are really realizing it too, and no time Is better than the present to, to get moving on these things.

One of the other surprising pieces of of kind of building Suppli and everything that I hadn’t really counted on is is how much individuals care about this and want it to succeed?  I think that now we’re building much more community and it’s not just, zero wasters, it’s, it’s a community that supports each other to  help build this momentum. And I think that’s awesome. And it’s so, so refreshing and energizing and. That’s something that I really hadn’t anticipated,  the willingness of our consumer base to give feedback and help us build this. Because that was my intention from the beginning. It’s a service and product service that is built from the grassroots up. And I think that’s the way to form these sorts of initiatives. And I think that sets you up well for building something that really tackles the issues that people are, are seeing.

Jennifer Chua: I think a lot of people think that in order to make an impact, they need to start huge or go for every single restaurant in Toronto. And I appreciate that you started with five, like that’s great. You’re making a huge impact with a small group, really in the beginning.

Megan Takeda-Tully: I think you, you just have to be able to see the bigger picture, right? The bigger vision, like, our goal is really to be weaving reusables into the fabric of the traditional takeout system. Right. So, and yes, we’re starting with four or five restaurants, but  if you get it right, then you can grow it. If it doesn’t make sense to try and start so big.I think that’s obviously biased, but I think that’s the way you build these things out into big successful impact is that  you have to be able to get it right on a small scale first.

If you want to learn more about Megan and her mission to make single use takeout containers a thing of the past, visit mysuppli.ca. In Toronto? Signup takes under two minutes and the list of restaurant partners is growing every single day. You can follow along with Megan and help tackle takeout waste and support your local restaurant while living zero waste on Facebook or Instagram @mysuppli.

 

 

 

In today’s episode, we chat with Lisa Nguyen from Baubles + Soles. We explore the environmental costs of conventional footwear manufacturing. We Learn one of the first dinner’s out with her new baby inspired Lisa to design an interchangeable bauble to give her daughter’s shoes a new look with a twist, how Lisa’s early childhood as a refugee and career in law led her to build a purposeful business that supports children in the developing world, how a decade-old pair of drugstore flip flops led Lisa to find her manufacturing partner in the United States, and why she thinks that paying more for domestic manufacturing may be more cost-effective in the long run.

If you want to Learn more about Lisa and her sustainable, and adorable footwear for toddlers,  Visit baublesandsoles.com. Looking to buy a pair? Through the Heart + Soles fund, Lisa donates a part of the proceeds to support women and children vulnerable to trafficking in the developing world. You can follow along with Lisa on her mission to create shoes that are as practical and fashionable as they are sustainable, and to make momlife that much easier on Facebook  Instagram or twitter.

Links from this episode

• Baubles and Soles
• Video explaining the twist lock
• Shark tank recap on Inc. Magazine

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to cost of goods sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 06

 In today’s episode, we chat with Lisa Nguyen from Baubles + Soles. We explore the environmental costs of conventional footwear manufacturing. We learn how one of the first dinners out with her new baby inspired Lisa to design an interchangeable bauble to give her daughter shoes and new look with a twist. How Lisa’s early childhood as a refugee and a career in law led her to build a purposeful business, to support children in the developing world. How a decade old pair of drugstore flip flops led Lisa to find her manufacturing partner in the United States and why she thinks that paying more for domestic manufacturing, maybe more cost-effective in the long run.

 If you have a growing child in your home, you know that they may go through a dozen pair of shoes in a year.  Some shoes are for one purpose some are for for one occasion, and most are only worn a handful of times before little one outgrows them.  And while some footwear brands are exploring new materials and sustainability  until Baubles + Soles, no one had focused on the years where we change pairs most often.

 Founder, Lisa created a 100% recyclable and multipurpose toddler shoe  from an innovative material of sea salt and soy.  Less than 0.01% of shoes purchased in north America  are made in north America.  And the majority of shoes sold in north America are not recyclable.  Many that claim to be a really just shoe redistribution programs.  The shoes are collected and oftentimes shipped back overseas.  Baubles + Soles participates in a closed loop recycling.  With the intent to reduce the use of Virgin material  and to keep those old shoes from becoming environmental waste.  Each new pair is made with a percentage of recycled materials. They’re also low carbon footprint being manufactured domestically  and being animal free.  And with features like water resistance, they replace all of those single purpose shoes that are not suitable for both the playground and the party.

 I met Lisa on Instagram when my little one was still a toddler and she has worn these shoes in every size as she’s grown,  collecting the baubles and happily putting them on the next pair, as we size up,  baubles are attractive to kids. They’re rainbows, mermaids, unicorns, hearts, things like that.  And while I was drawn to Baubles + Soles for the sustainable nature of the shoes and the multi-purposeness. They have the added benefit of being really attractive to those looking for a high fashion shoe for their little one.

 And Lisa’s career path might surprise you. She went to law school. She spent some time as a lawyer.  And doing pro bono work in Southeast Asia.  She spent a lot of time in the nonprofit space and advocacy and worked in entertainment with the Vietnamese community as well as a television host. But immediately before Baubles + Soles, Lisa was a first time mom. Working on understanding and navigating new motherhood  and putting a lot of pressure on herself to go back to work immediately.  She was on a flight just three weeks after giving birth, crossing the country  and thinking about how she was going to make all of this work. 

And like many of the founders that I’ve met with for this project, having a child completely changed Lisa’s perspective,  and she began to look for something,  something that could make an impact on the world,  but also give her that freedom and flexibility to spend more time with her daughter.

Lisa Nguyen:  And I remember, putting a lot of pressure on myself to go back to work immediately.   That was definitely the catalyst for Baubles + Soles and it it just, yeah, my wheels, the wheels of my head, it was turning as I was looking for, how I can solve this conundrum of wanting to work and wanting to challenge myself professionally. But that at the same time, like not miss out on being in her life and seeing her every day and seeing all the milestones.

 Jennifer Chua: A couple months later on an evening out with her family, Lisa had the idea that would change everything.  It’s a great story. And I’m going to let her tell it.  Because Lisa is a really wonderful person with a huge heart, and she’s just brimming with optimism.  She’s incredibly determined. She’s creative and caring, and she’s really hopeful for the future. 

  Lisa Nguyen: I think everybody’s engineered for good and engineered for contribution. And, not only are we capable, I think it’s, it’s in our DNA. It’s just whether or not that part of us  is ignited by the people around us, by what’s happening now in our world. You know?  

Jennifer Chua: We’ve talked a lot about your past before and all of the wonderful things you’ve done in your career. To support social purpose really? Is there a moment that stands out in your mind where you can remember when you first became interested in doing this, like using your life to give back?

Lisa Nguyen: Growing up, I. I’ve always had a very strong sense of civic, duty like I think, even before I was academically excelling.  I was always an average student, but I would always be the kid that would like, if there’s a tap, like a bubbler in Australia, we call it a bubble, which is like a drinking station. If there was a tap that was like slightly like running, I would run over and close it. Or if there was a kid who was struggling, I’d always want to be that person to, to help that kid along. So I remember like in primary school I got the award for the. The citizenship award, I guess it’s the award where you help others. I was not expecting it. I had no idea how it happened. I was a wallflower, that was really interesting to actually think back about that. And I had forgotten about that actually. But, like I said, I think that the desire to contribute and to leave this world a slightly better place than, than how you found it. I think that it’s, in all of us. It’s just whether or not, we are mindful of it. And then whether or not we surround ourselves with people who like have these conversations and remind us all the time. Like when I speak to you, Jen, I’m, I feel inspired to like, like, Oh, gosh. Yeah, we gotta be thinking about that again. I think it’s, it’s there in all of us.

Jennifer Chua: Can you talk a little bit about your past in terms of your legal career, a brief overview of what you’ve done for people all over the world.

 Lisa Nguyen: I actually grew up in Australia. My mother and I left to Vietnam on a boat and we spent a week at sea. And then we went to Hong Kong where we lived in a refugee camp for three years. And so that  is definitely a defining part of me growing up, I think. And some of the, like my characteristics, I, I definitely have a very strong sense of survival because I think we’ve really had to vote for that. Then we immigrated to Australia, on a humanitarian visa and the Australian government took us in, I was eight at the time. And then I grew up in Australia.  I was never academic, but then I guess at one point, you have a couple of teachers who just really just change your life and make you believe that you can.  And I was hanging out with like really nerdy girls. So then all of a sudden being smart was really cool. And it was something that I’m like, okay, well, I could. Try this. So I tried to do really well at school and got into the best law school actually in Australia, Sydney university. And I was working in banking and finance litigation, I guess, immediately after I graduated and between my,  law degree and my master and I can definitely see that life and where it would go. But there definitely was a moment where I thought, gosh, life has to be more extraordinary than this. And I definitely remember a moment when, we were acting for the bank, the firm that I was working with and somebody was on the phone, I guess, the person whose house was up for sale because he defaulted on his mortgage. And I remember he was crying on the phone to me and I was, I had so much empathy for him, but then the clock was also ticking because that those were billable hours and I had to, like, it had to continue. And I just, and in the end he would have to pay for that. Like once the bank takes his house and sells that he pays for those hours. Right. And so I just.  It really went against, what I, what I felt like I wanted in my life. I, just wanted something just a little bit more humane.

I was fired at the first firm and then the second firm that I was at it was really great, but then I kind of asked them if I could just go away for four full months. I think I asked at the time, and the partner, he said, yes. And he said, come back, you always have your job here. And then I went and then I never came back. So I went to the Philippines where we did pro bono legal work for refugees and stateless people that like very similar to my mother and I were, I think they just came a little bit later on and they miss, a deadline to enable them the resettlement. So I was there, what turned out four months turned out to be over a year. And then I was offered the job as executive director of that organization in Washington, DC, and hence the move to DC.

Jennifer Chua: And why does sustainability matter to you? Do you have any experiences that shaped you in terms of sustainability?

Lisa Nguyen: I think growing up in like on an Island, like Australia, it’s the smallest continent, but largest Island. I think that we we were ingrained us children to be very mindful about the environment. It’s definitely it, I think in Canada, it’s the same, the emphasis on sustainability was huge in Australia.

We were encouraged to not buy bottled water. Because Sydney tap water is good enough to bottle. That was the slogan of the ads. We were taught to really just be mindful of the environment. And so  I grew up with that mentality. And I knew when when Baubles + Soles came up, I knew we had to do something that was better than what is currently available right now.  If you’re going to bring a new product to market, like, how is it better than the competitors? Like, what are your convictions like?  Why you, the new guy, and not somebody who’s being around, with a lot of marketing budget behind them. At the same time, it was also like, I, was making this pair of shoe for my baby girl. So it better damn be the best possible pair of shoes I could make for her because she deserves it. So that was kind of, sustainability for me. Like I, that had to be a part of this product.

Jennifer Chua: Can you tell me the story of coming up with the idea for Baubles + Soles and moving this idea forward into an actual business?

Lisa Nguyen: It happened on the 30th of September. 2016. And we were heading out to dinner. When your new parents dinner is at 5:00 PM, so it could have been happy hour, but you know, dinner, it was and Kaia was nine months at the time, 10 months. She had this pair of shoes and it had like a big red hot on it. It was a gift from a friend and I, and that was the only pair of shoes she had at the time.  I didn’t want to buy more because I knew that she was going to grow out of it like immediately. But then like there was this pair of shoes that she’s wearing every single day of all the time. And it’s so recognizable because this heart is so huge.. And I remember looking at her shoes and thinking, gosh, I wish I could just take that heart off and like put on another animal or I do something else so that it doesn’t look like she has the same pair of shoes. But at the same time, it would go with all of her outfits and that was it. Like it came to us very quickly. The drive to dinner was only about 10 minutes. And in that 10 minutes I was talking to my husband and I was like, gosh, you know what, this is what we’re going to do. Like that’s how it’s going to be done. The reason why I remember the date so clearly is because I took a photo of the, all of our shoes that day. When we arrived at the restaurant, I took a photos of her shoes, my shoe, and my husband’s shoe together. And I said, I want to remember this day because  I think it’s so special and exciting. That was when the idea kind of first came to mind and it took a couple of months to set everything in place, just, flushing out the ideas, looking at how we can make the shoes, looking at how to design the Twistlock. It took me 18 months before it launched to market. Like it took a long time to, to come up with the prototypes. I could definitely go into the whole story about the R and D for the brand, but , that’s basically what happened when we, I came up with the idea.

Jennifer Chua: Can you walk us through how you’re different from other shoe companies?

Lisa Nguyen: Firstly, we are sustainably, made in America. It’s made off a bio-based material that is predominantly soy as in soy milk and salt. And so therefore it’s extremely soft and mushy and it’s machine washable. They get really dirty these shoes and you can throw them in the wash with your clothes and they come out brand new, which I love. I love that. Especially as a mother. We don’t realize that you can’t just throw any pair of shoes in the wash because some shoes that are plastic, for example, will melt and and some just don’t come out looking the same. Our shoes are machine washable, which I think, in light of hygiene and everything that’s going on in the world, I think that’s a great thing. Of course, when you have kids, that’s very important.

And then finally, it is interchangeable in the sense that you can change out the top, the decoration on top to go with different outfits and occasions. So you can take it off and just wear the shoes on its own and be at the playground and get it dirty and everything is fine. And then you can wash it and pop on a bauble and take her shopping. Or if you’re going to a wedding, then put on a pom pom and she’s going to look so cute. I also wanted to focus very much on the experience.   We made the box so that they could be reusable and, everything is definitely being thought of. And we’re always improving and there there’s always things that we want to do better, but. It’s the shoes with hearts and there are two hearts on the shoes. It comes with already a pair of heart baubles so,  it’s a nod to the original shoe that inspired the brand. I think we put a lot of heart into the making of it.

Jennifer Chua: Often people refer to Baubles + Soles as a minimalist shoe because they are so multi-purpose like they’re water shoe, a dress-up shoe, a daycare shoe, a play shoe they’re a number of things in one.  Which one of these things was the most important to you? The multipurposeness, the social good, which we have to get into still, or the sustainable materials? Recyclability. What, what was your focus in the beginning?

Lisa Nguyen: Some of those things. Overlap with each other. So for me, I think it’s, and a very smart person once told me, but it’s just one shoe from playground to party. And that would be you, Jenn, we trademarked that. And so I think that  that’s the most important element of the shoe is that it’s just the one shoe that goes from playground to party. But because of that one shoe, you are not leaving 10 pairs of shoes in landfill, which then speaks to the sustainability. And then that also speaks to the multi-purpose of the shoe, the ability to use it for different occasions. So I think that that’s probably the defining thing about the brand.

We had another slogan, it was one shoe, endless possibilities, but really it’s playground to party, really like it summarizes up this brand so beautifully and it speaks to the interchangeability, it speaks to the sustainability. And then it also speaks to the playfulness of being a child. Like when you’re a kid, I mean, what are your memories? Like it’s going to be at the playground or going to see your friends for play dates. At least that’s what we hope for our children. Right. And so, yeah, it just encapsulates the brand beautifully.

Jennifer Chua: So if someone has managed to destroy a pair of Baubles + Soles, and they want to send them into be recycled, how does that work?

Lisa Nguyen: We do have a a program whereby we can take back old shoes. And actually if they’re, completely destroyed and there’s no way to repurpose them, then they can be grinded down and made into new shoes. In fact, I want to say that each pair of shoes uses either 25 or 75% of like old material and new material is only is like a proportion of it. I certainly didn’t engineer all of that. We were very lucky to partner with a factory in America that does that. But it is so perfect and we feel so grateful.

Jennifer Chua: As a mother, I do know how many pairs of shoes a child goes through per size, of course, but also per occasion. So I really do appreciate that Baubles + Soles, at least in my case, or in our case here at home were placed like six pairs of shoes at once. So I just love that so much. With conventional footwear for children. Why are our shoe buying habits so problematic?

Lisa Nguyen: Everybody loves shoes. It’s just one of those things,  we love our shoes, especially if you’re a woman it’s in your DNA. I don’t know. But I think the problem that we are solving is that, especially when they’re growing so fast and they’re changing so much, you don’t need 10 pairs of shoes of a size five, and then then 10 pairs of shoes in a size six three months later. You really absolutely don’t and they don’t need it. And I think that people need to be mindful that, these shoes that we buy, then they grow out of so quickly, like that, that will eventually end up in landfill, where it will sit there for thousands of years. 

I have seen images of, of like shoes in landfill, as we were doing some research for the company and we never participate in that kind of marketing, like the guilt marketing, it’s just not the way that I’m engineered. I don’t like to kind of make too many references to that and then, but focus on, what it offers like the good things. However, I do think that if we do see If we do see the shoes in landfill, I think that we would think twice and it is just about mindfulness.

Jennifer Chua: Your shoes are made domestically, they’re made in the United States. How many companies are doing that? Like how, why are shoes not made domestically more often? Why are we always going overseas?

Lisa Nguyen: well, so like 0.01% of shoes are still made in America. Of shoes that have purchased in America, and with children’s shoes, it’s even less than that. Obviously it’s a cost. It’s a cost factor for sure. We could have chosen a different route, which would have made that like our cost of goods sold a lot less. But then at the end of the day, I think that it’s this like, well, do you add the human factor to that cost of goods sold when you’re,  doing your spreadsheet of numbers?

Our shoes is a one-piece construction and it’s great. The buckles and the Velcros don’t fall off. But unfortunately there is a downside to that. Like when a child has like slightly chubbier feet, it’s a little bit harder to get into the shoe, but so the reason why we made it a one-piece construction is because the shoe is not handmade because if it’s hand made in America it’s going to be really hard cost-wise.  I invested in tooling for the shoes and so it’s injection molded. So when only a machine is injection molding, then the cost goes down dramatically for us. Adding Velcro or buckles, the cost would have been exorbitant and we wouldn’t have been able to do it, but when we’re talking about like made in America, like some of the things that we’ve had to do to to cut costs, they are also perks to it, but you know, there were also some downsides.

Jennifer Chua: I’d like to talk a little bit more about your manufacturing, because it’s something that people ask me about all the time and I don’t have the information because I’m not actually manufacturing anything. Can you tell me the story about how you managed to find a manufacturing partner in the United States?

Lisa Nguyen: Sure. So when I was living in DC and working for a nonprofit, I remember going to CVS, CVS. Yes. And I found these flip-flops and they were made in America and they were machine washable and they were the right price. And I was like, wow, this is fantastic. So I would wear this flip-flop everywhere. And I still have photos of me during those years. And it’s like, I’m always in those flip-flops like everywhere with everything like fancy dresses, just yoga clothes, like all the time. And I would buy the shoes for my like friends. For my parents back in Australia for my sister and then my boyfriend at the time who now is my husband, thankfully. I would always gift the shoe. And so when the opportunity came to make the shoe in America, they came to mind, for sure. So I just cold called them. I called, I Googled the factory and I called them and immediately they were like, yes, we do private manufacturing and private labeling. And that was kind of like the beginning of that journey. I mean, they do not always take on startups, so it took a lot of persuasion and follow-ups to have them give us a chance. But I was very lucky because the president of the brand the factory, she at the time had a four year old. So she knew what we were doing. And because of her, it was really the reason why we landed on the manufacturing relationship. Everything great that’s ever happened to this company. It’s been because the person on the other side of the line had a young daughter in our age range at the time.

Jennifer Chua: And they saw the value.

Lisa Nguyen: Yes.

Jennifer Chua: Are there any benefits other than carbon footprint and the local economy to manufacturing in the United States, like in terms of holding stock or lead time.

Lisa Nguyen: Yeah. So exactly. When you talk about margins, the effective margins of a brand like ours is actually even is better than, than if we had had it imported because you’re not losing, a month at sea, import export. You are not losing a very long turnaround time for the shoes when they’re made here in America, I could place an order and have a very big batch made like within a week. My cost of goods sold for the money that is kind of sitting in inventory is not sitting at sea. It’s not sitting, in customs. So, yes, there are some really fantastic benefits. And I know in our media kit, like we talk about like how much diesel we save from not having these shoes ship in from, from overseas. So, all of those things are amazing. And another thing is the material is also a US patented US made material, the bio based material that’s being certified by USDA. So like all of those things, I think just make the shoes so special and, it’s, it’s near and dear to my heart for sure.

Jennifer Chua: As conscious small business owners, a lot of us have been trying to create systems and products that help create less waste and your shoes are truly minimalist and have done so, and one of the things that I would like to mention is that they’re vegan. So in terms of sustainability, they’re not made with animal byproducts, which I think to a lot of people is important as well.

Lisa Nguyen: That is absolutely right. In fact, my sister-in-law she’s vegan and raising her children vegan. I was a vegetarian for a very long time. I’m not anymore, unfortunately, but one day we’ll go back there. But yes, the shoes are vegan which you know more about the products than I do.

Jennifer Chua: If we want to make an impact, we can do so in a number of different ways. And I just love that your products tick so many of those boxes that people would be interested in. So someone that maybe isn’t as concerned about, what your giving back program may be more concerned about like vegan materials. So that’s, that’s wonderful.

Lisa Nguyen: I think it’s just about being very intentional with what you’re bringing into the world. And, and my thing is always, if it can be better than what’s out there right now. Because of this point or because of something else that you trying to put into your product, I think that that’s the world needs more kindness and love, right? So then it just needs more people making products with kindness and love  and understanding what’s out there and understanding what, what else they can do to make the current status quo better.

Jennifer Chua: I wanted to talk about your big dream in the beginning days. Do you remember, or could you tell me about the first thing that you were really proud of and why

Lisa Nguyen: Oh, no, I think that first day when we came up with the idea, it came really quickly. So that was lovely. I certainly like when I was telling my close friend about the idea and I was like explaining what it would be and what it would like do. And then I was like, and it’s going to be called Baubles + Soles and she was like, I still remember her reaction to that. And then another friend was like, Oh my God, you’ve hit your million dollar idea, but I think it’s, it’s that response to this concept  at the beginning, that was really exciting. Obviously, the realities of being in the footwear industry  is harder than those initial days of dreaming. And, obviously we dreamt about being on Shark Tank because when you come up with an idea for a product  that’s what you want to be. But for me, the proudest I think I am most proud of executing the product of my dream.

This is the idea, and this is the thing that we want it to be. And then to make it a reality, that’s probably my greatest joy and achievement as I think about the brand. And as, as I think about the amount of time that I’ve invested in it, I think that there are some exciting things on the horizons, but yeah. It’s, it’s definitely been a great joy  and a huge sense of pride.

Jennifer Chua: And you have had some big wins, like you’re in countries. Countries all over the world.

Lisa Nguyen: Yes, there are some big wins. And then obviously to be able to be on Shark Tank with my family, I, I couldn’t bring out seven month old at the time. Cause that would have been just like absolutely disastrous. But, my Kaia,  the one that inspired the shoe, she was there with us in the tank and then to be in there with my husband and to take him along on this ride, it was great. And then the fact that we walked out of there with a deal when we almost did not like that was all, like, I am so grateful. And I think that all of this happened for us, just, I think it’s because of the karma and the Goodwill that we’re trying to put out there in the community. I mean, it’s not always easy fighting the good battle and trying to be, quote unquote, good. Sometimes, it, it sometimes feels like it’s easier to do the easy thing. But I think with Baubles + Soles, we’ve tried very hard to do the right things and, we’ve had some really great wins.

Jennifer Chua: Are there any other ways that you use Baubles + Soles to affect social change?

Lisa Nguyen: We do make a donation of our profit back to a charity. That’s not something that I like to talk overly about just because I feel like that shouldn’t be the reason why people buy the brand. That’s not the marketing message for us over here for us. It’s about the sustainability and about the one shoe from playground to party and then anything else that we do above and on top of that is, it’s, it’s something that we do within our family. Oh, and you can match with your little girl, we have a partnership. So then there are these mommy and me shoes. How cute is that?

Jennifer Chua: From the beginning built into this business, it looks like giving back was always going to be a part of Baubles + Soles. I was just wondering if you wanted to comment on the heart and souls fund.

Lisa Nguyen: We, make a donation to a charity that educates children. I have always been involved with the education of children. I know that sounds so fru fruit, but, Senhoa is a charity that I helped found it and it’s still very close to my heart. It’s something that we still work on as with my board of directors. And so we do donate a percentage of our profits, to Senhoa In our efforts to educate children who are at risk of sexual abuse and human trafficking.

Jennifer Chua: I think that’s a really big problem that people don’t understand. And I applaud you so much for giving back in that area.

In your journey through Baubles + Soles, have you encountered any really big challenges that were like huge learning lessons for you?

Lisa Nguyen: When we came up with the idea we were looking for Like an engineer, a designer, an industrial designer to help us with it. And we met a person who I guess. We were going to hire him to do the design of the Twistlock. But he was so enamored by the idea that he wanted to be an investor, turned into an investor. Looking back, I think that it would have been much easier had we just paid for him to design the shoe just because, getting an idea from idea to execution. It’s, it’s a lot of hard work and there’s a lot of , Falling down before you stand up. It was very difficult those early days of trying to get the project off the ground.

I think the message definitely is like, believe that you can, don’t think that anybody else is going to be the answer to your problem. No, that you can, with enough determination. The learning lesson there definitely is that, you can, and you will, and like there’s no Knight in shining armor coming to rescue you. You are your knight in shining armour.

Jennifer Chua: Was there ever a point in building Baubles + Soles where you didn’t feel so confident about this? Like, was there ever a point when you felt really differently?

Lisa Nguyen: Yes for sure. I mean, there would definitely that’s when you were like, okay, we had never going to be able to engineer this. Twistlock like, it’s never going to happen. And I think Jen, you also witnessed a lot of the early stages of that, when we did make it happen, but it was just a lot of back and forth about, about getting this product right. I feel like we are definitely there now where like, we’re at a point where, okay, it’s right. But for a long time, there that was a challenge because we needed this mechanism to be cheap enough to produce so that we can price it accordingly. I didn’t want the baubles to cost as much as a new pair of shoes that would go against the purpose of this company. It needed to be affordable so that you can pick up a few baubles and then just use that one pair of shoes. But then at the same time, it was like, it needs to have the clearance so that it’s not so high. So the bauble doesn’t sit so high from the shoe. And then it needed not be dangerous for the kids.

So for example, everybody’s like, have you ever used magnets? Yes, we have thought about magnets, but what, if that magnet detaches from the shoe and a baby eats that, it was just, it wasn’t a risk that we were willing to take. So yes, there was definitely a time when we were like, we had never going to be able to make this happen.

Jennifer Chua: Could you just give me a little bit more insight into what the Twistlock is? Just in case someone doesn’t understand.

Lisa Nguyen: The baubles, the decoration on top, is attached to the shoes using a push and twist lock mechanism. So very similar to a medicine cap. Basically, it’s got a rubber spring for you to push down and then you twist it into place. And then it goes into a cavity that then locks it into place.

We actually just got the patent issued, which is awesome. And that’s how you detach and attach a bauble to the shoe. That took a long time to design and get right. And luckily we had another engineer who’s Canadian who helped us with the final prototype and he actually helped us in a friend capacity. And I always say to myself, one day when I sell this company, I need to make sure that I compensate him and give him a percentage of it, because like, he was very much instrumental in helping us realize this dream of a Twistlock.

Jennifer Chua: So oftentimes speaking with the owners of product based businesses, I hear that they feel that it’s going to be cost prohibitive to manufacture domestically or manufacture close to home. And while definitely the costs are going to be different. If you choose to manufacture somewhere like China, there has to be other considerations taken into place as well. I was wondering if you could speak to things that you’ve learned from choosing the American manufacturing over Asia.

Lisa Nguyen:  I was doing this research when we were preparing for Shark Tank and one of the things that a CEO that I was working with at the time she pointed out, listen, your effective margins is actually better than if you had manufactured it overseas. And here she is talking about the turnaround time for this product, the time that it, so you have to pay for these products, but then it sits at sea for a month before it gets to, to America. And also like we have the ability to maybe place a lower MOQ minimum order quantity when it’s made here domestically, because it doesn’t have to go so far. When you manufacture off shore, you have to plan out your inventory 6 to 12 months in advance, and then you order accordingly and then your cash goes out, as, as you’re waiting for it to come in. So in actual fact, your margins, like the margins is actually higher than you realize because of the amount of time that it takes and how much money you have sitting in inventory. And then you have to sell out of the inventory. For us here. We have the flexibility of a lower MOQ minimum order quantity and so then our effective margin is actually I think if not lower than the same as if we had chosen to make it. Off shore. If you think about the cost of goods sold and there maybe you add marketing, because  people feel good about that. And, and people feel like quality is there because it is made here. So then that’s actually a little bit of marketing funds that’s already built into the product.

Jennifer Chua: And I wanted to bring this up because of other small business owners that may be listening to this, to take that into consideration because if you have 50,000 units made or this massive amount of product made overseas and they’re shipped here and then they’re sitting in a warehouse they’re defective or degrading or not selling, and you have to dispose of them that needs to be taken into consideration as well. Like what’s going to happen to your goods that aren’t selling financially or otherwise. Like, what are those costs?

Lisa Nguyen: Without, feeling like this is bashing off shore produced products, I do know that you need to build in a certain amount of RMAs, like defective Products in your cost of goods sold when you are looking at products that are produced off shore. I mean, We have RMAs for the shoes too. For example, if the injection molding, like if it just didn’t run through the cavity properly, but I can tell you that percentage of that is like, I like a fraction of some of the RMA issues that we experienced with the parts of our products that are made overseas.  It’s just a reality of, mass manufacturing. To the extent that it is when it’s done off shore, you don’t have as tight of a quality control. And like, by the time it reaches America, it’s like, well, there’s no recourse for you really. You’ve already spent that money, and it’s, definitely . Something to keep in mind.

Jennifer Chua: Some really fabulous publications have featured Baubles + Soles, and everybody is focusing on you and your spirit of never giving up, which is amazing.   But I had noticed that in the Shark Tank episode, when I watched it, they did not mention the sustainability or recyclability of your product. Do you know why they made that choice?

Lisa Nguyen: We were in the tank for, I believe an hour and a lot of things were discussed during that time. I actually wanted to spend some of that air time talking about postpartum depression and bringing just a little bit of light to that because I did struggle for a little bit there after I had my first baby girl with just my identity and like, who am I? And I’m this different person from, I was before, but then I also wanted to do the things that I was doing before. So it was like definitely going through an interesting period. And I, I spoke about that in the tank that I had hoped would be picked up in the final edit. In the end, it was eight minutes, that they took of the one hour that we were in the tank. And we definitely talked about sustainability. I think though, my episode, the spirit of never giving up was probably strongest of all the things that was discussed when we were in the tank. And so that was what they really focused on when we were there. We spent a lot of time. We talked about my past. We talked about like living in a refugee camp. They were really interested in that. We talked about, my grandfather and how he shaped, a lot of things that were talked about. And They, in the end there was just a time. And I think that the, the Shark Tank message is obviously the unwavering spirit of an entrepreneur.

And what came out of our episode just fits that messaging so perfectly. So that was what was in the end, the final edit not to say that, that they don’t care about sustainability, I know, obviously people feel differently about Shark Tank and especially those who have been on.  I loved the experience and every single minute of it, I am so grateful and like it’s definitely a claim to fame for my husband and my little daughter. She got her first paycheck at a Shark Tank because they had to pay all of the extras. So she had like, I dunno, a hundred dollars or something for her time. It’s it was an incredible journey for us. And honestly, if you get to work with the producers, you’ll find that they are definitely there for the American dream for the entrepreneur. And it’s very obvious  when, when you’re working with the producers and when you meet the sharks, Like, they’re actually not that as scary in-person as the editing makes it out to be. I have to tell you it’s, I mean, that’s drama for TV, but they’re actually honestly quite nice. I mean, we experienced obviously rejections when we were in the tank, but they were generally overall very nice to us. So we had an we were very grateful for the journey and the experience.

Jennifer Chua: Getting a business off the ground and getting it to the level where you’re now, you won’t be able to do that on your own and well, I’m sure that you’ve had blood, sweat, tears, DIY in your journey. I was wondering what you chose to outsource who you brought in initially, or where you found the support that it took to move your business to the next level.

Lisa Nguyen: I think that when it comes to making things like tooling and, and. Like extremely technical things like assets that you really have to invest in that I think it’s best to go to the the experts in their field to do that. Other than that I think that you are capable of anything that you put your mind to. So there are now a million outsource Outlets or platforms, that you can really find people to help you with areas that are not your expertise.  But what I think is important to realize is that you are in the driver’s seat. You, are the answer you’ve been waiting for. As long as you have the determination and the will to execute on your idea. Then there are tons of resources out there, not crazily expensive, like an Upwork or Fiverr that can help you, cover areas where maybe you don’t have skill sets.

What is something that the world needs more of and what is something that the world needs less of?

Oh, goodness. I mean, this is just setting me up for giving you that world peace answer. I mean, how can you not, but honestly,  you know, definitely love and kindness. I just feel like if we just put out into the world, the energy of more love and more kindness. That’s definitely going to just move the world in the right direction. What does the world need? Less of? I think it’s negativity. I’m sick of the negativity. I think that the message, there are two, the first is, always inspire towards good, aim for good, and for kindness, and for better than what is currently existing. And then the second is that you are the answer like you are it, and you are enough. You are the person who’s going to make that happen. And if you have the will and the determination, then you will.

Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Lisa and her sustainable and adorable footwear for toddlers, visit baublesandsoles.com.  Looking to buy a pair?  Through the heart + souls fund.  Lisa donates a part of proceeds to support women and children vulnerable to trafficking in the developing world.  You can follow along with Lisa on her mission to create shoes that are as practical and fashionable  as they are sustainable  and to make #momlife that much easier  on Facebook at baublesandsolesUSA  or Instagram and Twitter at baublesandsoles. 

 

 

 

In today’s episode, we chat with April McKinnon from anointment. We learn how having a newborn with a critical illness led April from a career in civil engineering to buying a farmer’s market soap company. We learn how she’s inspired by the unique landscape of her maritime homestead, how she leveraged the soap business into a skincare brand, and why when looking back at the last 12 years, April, thanks at buying a business over building a business may have cost her more in the long run.

If you want to learn more about April and her all-natural handcrafted skincare for pregnancy postpartum and menopause. Visit anointment.ca. And if you’re looking for a gift for a newly pregnant mom in your life, I particularly love belly butter. You can follow along with April on her mission to support physical wellness in life transitions on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. April’s podcast The Ripple Effect can be found anywhere you get your podcasts.

Links from this episode

• FEnvironmental Working Group
• Tantramar Marshes (Wikipedia)

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Chua: Hello, everyone and welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 05

In today’s episode, we chat with April McKinnon from anointment. We learn how having a newborn with a critical illness led April from a career in civil engineering to buying a farmer’s market soap company. We learn how she’s inspired by the unique landscape of her maritime homestead, how she leveraged the soap business into a skincare brand, and why when looking back at the last 12 years, April, thanks at buying a business over building a business may have cost her more in the long run.

This is cost of goods sold a podcast about why the products that make a difference are made. I’m your host Jennifer Myers Chua. And I believe you can use your business or purchasing choices to cause a change you’d like to see in the world. Join me for conversations with intentional entrepreneurs, thoughtful designers and responsible creators and curators building for profit companies that create positive social and environmental change.

This episode is brought to you by hip mommies carefully curated wholesale merchandise for modern retail if you want to stock your shelves with brands that are socially responsible and sustainable, or if you want to be a part of the collection that is delighting Canadian retail visit, hipmommies.ca

If you’ve browsed through a baby boutique or natural health store in Canada, chances are you’ve come across Anointment. It was founded in 2002. April has been handcrafting all natural skincare sometimes with a team. And sometimes without, since she took over seven years later. And in the nearly 12 years, since April has experienced some ups, some downs and plenty of moments when she questioned whether she could go on.

I used Anointment products religiously when I was pregnant and postpartum and they live up to their claims. And so business has been good, the last couple of years. Anointment is on the shelf in all of the larger natural food stores. In Indigo and in Whole Foods.  April’s always ready to take stock and she’s focused on what has been working and then niched down. And a year and a half ago, April put the plans and processes in place to make a significant leap with a larger manufacturing space and a larger team.  But then COVID. And April had to do what many small businesses have had to do and ride out those waves.

She’s learned how to appreciate the quieter times at home with her family. Overlooking the beautiful marshland she lives on. And celebrate that she’s had the chance to be involved in every aspect of the business, every order, again.

Anointment is a natural skincare brand. They manufacture and distribute products related to pregnancy postpartum and menopause. There are some other products for new babies, some skincare goods for women. But the guiding principle is supporting through these times of change. And April is passionate about supporting women when sourcing her materials or partnering with brands. And natural skincare is essentially what led April into business in the first place, though. It was not the focus of her original venture.  So in 2004, April was pregnant with her first baby and the environmental working group, the EWG, launched their product database, which was revolutionary at the time.

April MacKinnon: I cross-referenced everything on their website with everything in my house and did a full sweep of my bathroom cupboard with a garbage bag and just everything went into it because I was pregnant and I was really concerned that maybe I was doing harm to my unborn baby, and I didn’t even know it, just through sheer ignorance. And so that was my first introduction to caring about ingredients at all.

Jennifer Chua: April went on to have her baby. And while she had spent so much energy focusing on her child’s health while she was pregnant, nothing could have prepared April for what happened after her birth.

April MacKinnon: There was also a whole story that would be far too long to tell here about her critical illness at birth, which led to us being in isolation in the NICU for three weeks. And because we were a a contagion risk, if you can imagine all of the things we are doing with PPE for COVID, it was like that. And everything that I wore in the room with her had to be double bagged and then sent for incineration because nobody knew what was in it. So, as far as biohazards. So we just, we created an insane amount of waste for those three weeks. And I left there sort of a culmination of all of these small markers in my life, determined to live a just a more natural homestead kind of life, but we were living in urban Halifax.

And so I did the best I could with our small plot of backyard that we had at that time.  And also that led into opening a natural parenting shop, which then subsequently led to me purchasing Anointment, which was a soap company at the Halifax farmer’s markets. So all of those things led me back to natural skincare essentially. So life before Anointment was really life before Parenthood for me.

Jennifer Chua: And at this time, April was in civil engineering, working with water and wastewater treatment. She helped to provide safe drinking water to communities in rural Cape Breton, rural Newfoundland.  And there within public health, April, learn more about the environmental sustainability. And she enjoyed landfill work, finding it interesting to know where your garbage goes, what happens to it and how that is all economically driven.  And all of this has led to how April thinks about the materials she uses now. The impact on the land, the soil, the earth. And April loved her work, doing water treatment, sewage treatment in the field and getting to know all of the people in the community and working with them. But then the funding for those kinds of jobs started to dry up.

April MacKinnon: There was a deadline in Atlantic Canada at that time to bring all of the small communities, to a new standard of drinking water quality. So there were all of these jobs happening. It was a very busy time. The deadline came deadline passed. Everyone had been brought up to standard. And now all of a sudden there’s no more of this type of work. And so my job in engineering then became very desk-based and I was, I was preparing engineering drawings. I was writing proposals and writing Specs for construction projects. And I really was not inspired by that kind of work. So I went from being really, really excited about my career to just feeling like, okay, another day sitting in front of my computer screen for eight hours.

And then when my daughter was born and she was critically ill it just, it changed everything. When you are looking at an infant who in one moment has changed your life. And then, if, if she didn’t make it, then I was going to have to walk out of that hospital without a baby. And then what was I going to do? And it just brought up like every existential crisis that you could imagine of what. What am I, who am I, what is my purpose? And everything that I was at that point sort of melted away. And I literally became an entirely new human being and I wanted nothing more than to just make the world better for her.

And I sort of made a promise that if she made it, then. Like things would be different. And so I had decided before I even left the hospital where I had mentioned all about, double bagging and incinerating, all of this waste that I was going to use cloth diapers.  I learned about attachment parenting. It just, it changed everything about who I was and the kind of parent I was about to become.  It just really changed the course of my life, that one moment where, a nurse noticed that my baby was not looking okay and that led to a three week, essentially a nightmare of a of hospital stay.

Going back to anything that I did before that time, just, it just didn’t seem like it seemed like I didn’t fit. I didn’t fit anymore. I was so profoundly changed. I did actually go back to my engineering career three days a week for time that didn’t work out so well. And I had started my first business kind of online in in the meantime. So I was building that up thinking that I could just pack and ship orders. Have this little online retail store and stay at home with my children and, it was going to be that simple. And of course it was not that simple.

Jennifer Chua: Do you remember any other moments in your life where. It kind of led you on this path of being interested in sustainability.

April MacKinnon: I think I’ve been interested in sustainability my whole life. My grandparents were beef farmers, cattle farmers, and had a very post-war post-depression kind of garden my entire life. I distinctly remember my grandfather dusting the potatoes with DDT in the 1980s and thinking, this seems like a really bad idea. My parents were gardeners. My parents also were cattle farmers that we just always grew up making sure we had enough. Just to feed ourselves. And then if there was something left to sell to, to have actual spending money at the end, and that was great, but the intention was always just to have enough for yourself.

Jennifer Chua: Why did you choose to make your impact here?  I want to do better. I’ve gone through this period of time that was really challenging. And I experienced a lot of waste, but why skincare? Why were you drawn there?

April MacKinnon: Really good question. I think it’s been a really roundabout journey. Perhaps actually secondary to the sustainability message,   we use minimal packaging, cardboard, recyclable, packaging, glass jars, the ingredients are all food grade ingredients. And so. We try as much as possible to maintain, the certified organic to keep soils healthy. Cruelty-free to ensure that we’re not impacting, animals and animal testing on a larger basis, vegan wherever possible. We do use beeswax, which is not considered vegan, but bees are not killed to harvest beeswax. So that’s I know that’s a gray area for a lot of people, but we actually have an apiary in our backyard. And I see every single time we opened the hives, how, how bees are managed and I feel okay with that decision. My desire to impact is really built around ensuring that women are supported in their time through pregnancy, postpartum, with their new babies, having the ability to choose products that they don’t have to worry about and that allowed them to feel better in their physical recoveries so that they can open up the space to do their own mental and emotional recovery. And so that’s really, that’s what drives me as a company, as the kind of skincare we produce. And then the environmental ethics are sort of cooked in there with it. Everything really in my life has, has led me here. I would say my upbringing, my family history, my education and Parenthood.

Jennifer Chua: How do you think you’re different from other skincare companies? Do you think that other skincare companies are so intentional?

April MacKinnon:  I think a lot are, the successful ones are . I think people have their own journeys with this. I know when I started out, because I took this company over, it was primarily a soap company. And so I became a soap maker, but I was never really passionate about soap itself. And so it’s taken me a long time to bring the two together to determine what kind of skincare I want to make that allows me to move my passion forward to support women  in those times in their lives. And I see lots of other companies who are doing similar things with the passions that they have And then there were others that are far more general but still do a fantastic job. Rocky Mountain Soap Company comes to mind. They make something for everyone. In multiple flavors and scents and they are extremely successful doing it and are doing a fantastic job. But my approach has been more to niche down and then niche down, even harder. But it’s taken me a decade and a half to sort of figure out what my niche was in the first place, because I, I didn’t put two and two together necessarily at first that skincare was the way to make my message heard, because I thought for a long time we would do the same thing. We would make something for everyone and we would do lots of it. And in that approach, I realized in speaking to everyone, I was speaking to no one.  And so it was really only in 2019, I got much clearer about what it is we are actually doing as a skincare company.

Jennifer Chua: On your website. It says that you’re inspired by the balance and change for our local landscape and our place in nature. Could you give me a little bit more of an idea of what you mean by that?

April MacKinnon: Oh, if you have ever been here, you will know that our landscape is quite, it’s quite unique and it’s quite inspirational. So I live on the Tantramar marsh, which is a landscape unlike anywhere else in the Maritimes. It is a saltmarsh that was created by Acadians in the late 16 hundreds with horses and specially made shovels to literally hold back the tides so that they could create farmland. And so we are at the mercy every single day , of these berms of these dykes that hold back the Bay of Fundy. It’s flat. It’s very much like a Prairie land. And it’s grassland. It’s historically the world’s largest hay producing. Location in, in North America and it inspires artists. There’s so much wildlife here. We have we have a big population of birds and therefore a large number of birders who live here. And it’s just. It’s rural. It’s quiet. There are no power lines out there. You can just be at one with nature.

I’m a runner. And so that’s sort of my favorite location to run. I’m up there all the time. Winter, spring, fall summer. I see from day to day, what’s coming into bloom. What’s blooming late this year. What’s out already. Oh my gosh. Look at the birds. That bird is back. This is early, you just kind of get into a rhythm of the seasons. And it’s just a really nice way to live, to notice when the Colts feet are blooming two weeks earlier than they did last year. My husband and I actually keep journals about these things. Cause we’re nerds like that.

Jennifer Chua: Now that we’re talking about your beautiful landscape and your beautiful property, can we talk a little bit more about the bees?

April MacKinnon: Yeah. So we have I think there’s five hives out there right now. We started out, I don’t know, maybe six years ago with one hive and Just to kind of try it out. And my husband has really latched onto this particular he took some beekeeping seminars and this has really become not only a hobby, but he has his own small business now as an apiary.

We produce honey. We do refine a small bit of beeswax and mainly make it into candles. It’s not, it, there’s not enough for me to use at work and we don’t have the equipment ourselves to be able to refine it to a place where I’m comfortable using it in our products. So we normally reserve for candles or sometimes people use it for beeswax wraps for their food, or even furniture, Polish and those kinds of things.

My brother also has blueberry land and so we move our hives to his blueberry land in the spring to help pollinate the blueberry blossom. So it’s, we’re all kind of interconnected in this family of small agricultural enterprises and and small business.

Jennifer Chua: When you started to look into creating products, did you come to any realizations that conventional baby care products may be less than ideal?

April MacKinnon: I think it’s really a different approach. It’s a different philosophical approach. There are lots of conventional baby products out there that that we’ve all used. We all have sworn by them at various points in our lives or our mothers or our grandmothers used them. I think that they all have their place and certainly there are specific ingredients in those that health Canada recognizes as being appropriate for treating diaper rash and that kind of thing. Our approach has been more rooted in traditional herbal knowledge. So it’s really just a different philosophic approach to to a product for the same kind of purpose.

Jennifer Chua: Those ingredients that maybe really mass produced skincare lines are using, do you think any of those have significant environmental impact?

April MacKinnon: I think any ingredient can have significant environmental impact. We, we have the potential to overproduce just about anything on earth or overuse.  There is a lot of emphasis placed on soil health and soil regeneration within the parameters of certified organic agriculture, which is one of the reasons that I look to that particular certification for our ingredients. Essential oils are a great example. It’s kind of like making maple syrup where you have to extract out of huge amounts of material to get a small amount of product. And so right there, if, if you’re not careful and there are essential oils that are considered environmentally irresponsible and  they are getting harder to procure. So they’re very expensive, but they’re also come with caution that, these are being produced in environmentally sensitive areas, you might want to, be careful about using these kinds of products in some of your formulations for environmental reasons. I think everyone has their own set of ethics around that because everything is a shade of gray. Everything is a shade of gray when it comes to trying to figure out sustainability. And information changes over time.

Jennifer Chua: Thinking of the small business owner who  wants to make a bum butter, for example, or a home homesteader wants to make their own. Why may someone not want to just go on to Amazon and buy a block of Shea butter or something like that? For example, like what kind of checks and balances should people be looking for when they’re looking for materials?

April MacKinnon: Well, I’m a huge proponent of relationship-based business. Shea butter is a great example. I work with a with a supplier that purchases directly from a women’s co-op in Ghana. And so you can see from their videos and from their newsletters what’s happening in the village where the Shea butter is produced. The fact that the women there have been able to send their children to school because this is the income that they are making from selling the Shea butter. And so. I really like that for the social responsibility aspect. For someone starting out. You really have to define your, define your ethics, define your values within your business and don’t deviate. So spending time thinking about those things is really important. I think, there are some companies who for whom success is measured by bottom line and to other companies for whom success is measured in their work-life balance and other people for whom success is measured by something else completely. So knowing that is often enough to drive how you decide to purchase.

Jennifer Chua: Could you tell me about the moment where you realized that this could work? Like people were interested in this product you were creating or this brand you were building.

April MacKinnon: Yeah, it wasn’t that long ago. I mean, I think there have been many points where I’ve ridden the roller coaster of, okay, this could work and then, something catastrophic happens and then you are left with self doubt. I think the first year that I was able to draw even a meager salary from the company, which was about the seventh year in to owning the company and still have enough money to operate. There have been a lot of decisions that I’ve made just in the last 12 or 18 months that were, that were scary just in discontinuing some products. We’ve let go of our men’s line, for example, which in 2015 was the only reason we were profitable. And so letting go of products that had previously been quite successful, but no longer fit the direction that I wanted to go in, was really scary. And then seeing that, Oh my gosh, sales actually went up when I got rid of those products was a big eye opener that, okay, this, this could actually work when they say to niche. And then when you niche niche down again, they really mean it. So yeah, I would say when I thought, what I thought this could really work was literally 2019.

Jennifer Chua: Has there been any other costs associated with building this business to your family life or your mental health? Like how tough has this been?

April MacKinnon: Yeah, I’ve burned out twice. I’ve had significant challenges with my mental health and trying to rebuild after a big burnout. I went hard on, craft shows, trade shows. I went from New York directly to Toronto. To the craft show circuit for Christmas and then back to Toronto and then back to Toronto again. And after that last Toronto show, I came home just feeling like I was hit by a truck. I had no motivation. I had no desire, no drive, no direction. My kids were still very little. My youngest would have been three. I had no childcare except for my son had a half day preschool, my older two were in school, they have early dismissals, so they’re home by two o’clock and preschool was only half days. I was the primary parent. My husband works in the next city. So he’s, 40 minutes away at any given time. I can’t just call him to say, can you, can you come and just cover me for an hour? Looking back now I can say that I was doing a lot of things by half measures. I was parenting by half measures. I was trying to run this business by half measures and just trying to do work in 30 minute increments or parent in 30 minute increments or do laundry in 30 minute increments.

So I just was mentally overtaxed most of the time, which is a really big reason why that aha moment only came just so recently. I finally had some space to really think about really focus on one thing at a time and think about what it is. I actually wanted out of this business instead of just trying to run everything possibly poorly.

Jennifer Chua: These realizations led to this increased success after a decade in the game, or so. Have you encountered any other really big challenges in your journey here?

April MacKinnon: Always challenges. There’s, there’s never enough money. There’s never enough time. It’s hard to know. It’s hard to know what the right decisions are. I think I spent a lot of time working in a vacuum without a lot. Like I didn’t have a real business community around me. I knew some other business owners and we would talk occasionally, but, I didn’t have a mentor or a coach or anyone to really support me in learning new skills.  I think I spent a lot of time trying to learn everything, to figure out what it was I needed to know. Knowing, trying to figure out what you need to know is half the battle. And because if your measure of success is something other than straight profit margin or straight dollars in the bank or even if that is your KPI, you need to know how to measure that. I didn’t come into this with a business background. I have a good sense of problem solving skills because of my education, but I’m trying to run a business and try to run a manufacturing business is very different than running a retail business. So it took a lot of years to figure out. What are the parameters I need to be measuring there compared to, what I was looking at in a retail store, which is what my first business experience was.

Jennifer Chua: Can you tell me about a time where you feel like the odds may have been stacked against you?

April MacKinnon: The winter of 2015 after, after that period of burnout the, the winter of 2015 was probably the toughest winter on record recently it snowed all the time. School was canceled seemingly all the time. It felt like we couldn’t leave the house. So I wasn’t getting any work done because the kids were not in school. Everything just felt like it was piling up. Life was just piling up on top of me. And I was not sure that I was going to get through it honestly, or how I was going to get through it without completely cracking under the pressure. And I did crack under the pressure.

There was a point not long after I purchased the business that I had sort of rebranded it loosely. And then went to my very first trade show and realized that I actually could not sell the product. It was psychologically impossible for me to actually stand with confidence and sell the product because I couldn’t stand how it looked. I thought the packaging was terrible. I thought the branding was mediocre and I definitely was not competing with the other companies that were within that trade show. And and so I left with my confidence broken. My youngest son, I believe was about six months old. And so we went as a family, all five of us, and my husband would bring the baby to me to breastfeed while I was in the trade show booth.

And he would try his best to entertain them all day long while I was in that trade show booth, I still don’t know how we ever managed to get through it. And when I think back, I had this constriction in my chest of just. Why did I feel I needed to push so hard if I had just been smarter, I should have been working smarter and not harder, but there’s no way I could’ve learned that lesson any other way. And so there was that point where I thought, okay, I’ve got to rebrand everything and completely fixed this company from the bottom up. Or I’ve got, I’ve got to shut it down today. And I had already spent tens of thousands of dollars purchasing the company. And rebuilding a website and having new labels designed and printed and it was going to be another 25 or $30,000 investment to rebrand and relaunch and rebuild a website. Like I could have started this company from scratch for far less than what it took to get it to where it is today. But. Those are the lessons you learn. So there was that point quite early on where I thought, okay, maybe, maybe this just isn’t possible.

2019 I would say was another time. We were still operating from a second kitchen in my home and  I had signed a lease for a new location. That lease was to begin on March 1st, 2020. And from January 1st onward, I was getting up at four in the morning, every single day to go to my computer because I wanted to have on the day that we opened in our new facility, all of our, our good manufacturing policies in place, which have been in development for years, but I, I have, they’re like 99% done. I just wanted to complete them and have them in a binder. And like, this was going to be our fresh start. We’re going to get Health Canada licensing. We are going to become, federally licensed all of these things that I was trying to put into place.

And I had just started meeting with contractors at the end of February as our lease was about to start and we just ran into complication. After complication, after complication, we were going to have to Jack hammer out the floor to put in proper drains. And we were going to have to completely rebuild the entrance door because the metal had had rotted to a place where it was just sort of falling apart. And it was going to be a $5,000 job just to get the new door in 16 weeks of replacement. And everything was just not working, it was just not working. And I remember saying to my husband, I don’t know if, what I’m trying to accomplish is possible right now. And then by March 13th and everything had just ground to a halt. I had time to just think for the first time in, nearly two decades. And eventually we agreed between the property manager and myself that because of COVID and everything that had happened, that this was not a good fit anymore.

I walked away from the lease and I had leaned into, okay, we’re just going to be home-based. This is just what we are right now until something else comes along. And that’s what I did until November of 2020, when the perfect space came along and I signed a lease on a Tuesday and started moving in on a Thursday. So it just, it just came that quickly. Like it turned that quickly. And I think the lesson learned there is I was just trying to force something that wasn’t, was trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It just wasn’t meant to be. And if I had taken the time to step back and say, okay, if I have to force it this hard, maybe there’s a reason because when it came together, it came together and literally in 24 hours.

Jennifer Chua: We talked a little bit before, about 2015, when you were isolated in your home. And now you’re back isolated in your home because of COVID. And this challenge with your manufacturing space. Is there any other way that COVID has affected your business either positively or negatively?

April MacKinnon: After we went into lockdown, business completely stopped. Everything went quiet. Any orders that I had pending for retailers just sat. Nothing was happening on our website. My normal way to cope with stress is to run. That’s the only way I can make my mind stop. So I, I literally would do homeschooling with my kids in the morning, and then I would go for a run. For the first couple of weeks after we went into lockdown, I was just doing, I was still just doing busy work, like organizing my Dropbox folders and the things that probably needed to be done, but did I really need to be doing them? I felt like I needed to do something business-related. Otherwise, the business would just stop breathing. And I actually did consider for a while, this might be the end and I was starting to think about, well, what do I do if I’m not the owner of a skincare company, what do I do if this isn’t my job, what do I go back to school? Do I go back to engineering after 15 years? What do I do? And so I had laid off my staff, it was just me. By mother’s day, things were starting to pick up again. And so I was, I was able to ride on the inventory we had made for probably three months just because I was packing, little orders, one thing at a time, going out to people. And then it just every month built on top of the last month. And so it got busier and it got busier and it got busier. This year. August was so busy. It was our best month of the whole year until the Christmas season hit.

But I still, I had time to, we went to the beach as a family. We just, we just kind of enjoyed time for the first time in a very long time, even though we weren’t able to go far and we don’t normally go far because we have livestock and we have, we have a farm, so, going anywhere overnight is a big ordeal. We have to have someone come and farms sit so we don’t we don’t often go anywhere that isn’t a day trip, but we were able to take some really nice day trips to the beach or to Fundy national park for a hike or to take a picnic lunch somewhere and look over the Bay of Fundy. But the benefit business-wise came from me touching every single product, because I, I had to make everything I had to ship everything. It was really, really clear that when people can’t go to stores, there are five things they want from us. And I was packing the same five or six things over and over and over and over and over. And so that’s when it got really clear. What anointment actually is as a company. So I really have to credit the forced need to slow down with the clarity to move to the next level.

Jennifer Chua: COVID and purchasing habits has been fascinating. Completely fascinating.

April MacKinnon: I have seen definitely an intentionality around supporting small business and supporting local business. I don’t know that I had actually correlated that the way you have, because. You would see that you have a broader range of product that you’re working with than I do. But I have talked to a number of small business owners. I’ve heard that candles are off the charts, people who make candles right now cannot keep up with demand because everyone’s at home and once their home to smell nice, I think people have really taken an interest in self care and if that correlates to natural product then that could be it. They’re willing to spend a little bit more on things that make them feel good and things that they feel good about. I know for us because my husband is not commuting into the city every day. We’re saving a lot of money on gas that we can, that we can then put toward other things that make us feel nice. So there’s been a shift in how our family budget works that way. I pick up flowers at the store every so often for the kitchen now, which is something I never would have done before, but I make a point to go to the flower shop and buy a bouquet of flowers just because I’m in my house. I might as well make it look nice. So there, there could be that just people buying things that make them feel good.

Jennifer Chua: If someone was trying to make an impact in the personal care category, and they’ve heard your story and they feel inspired now to do something about it. What do you think a common reason they might give up or walk away from this would be?

April MacKinnon: I think that there is huge personal cost at stake if you don’t clearly define your boundaries very early on. I’ve spent a lot of time listening to podcasts this year and listening to women founders in particular, and I think for a lot of us, we don’t learn to set boundaries. We don’t necessarily learn to set boundaries until we’re approaching 40. And that certainly was true for me that I didn’t know, I needed boundaries. And I didn’t know how to appropriately set them, whether that was with the line between work and family, or even valuing my time enough to say, okay, maybe I’m not bringing in a big salary because I did this for a lot of years. I wasn’t bringing in an income. And so I didn’t feel that I could hire someone to look after my children so that I could work. But if I had hired someone to look after my children, even for a few hours a week, maybe I would have gotten there faster. There are so many things that I can only say in hindsight might have been different, but I can’t tell you for sure that they were, but I do feel that the boundaries around time, my husband never once hesitated to say, no, I have to go to work. I cannot take our son to his after-school class, so it was then automatically delegated to me. And I didn’t feel that I could also say that back. Well, no, I have to work. These are my work hours because I don’t have a boss who is clocking me in and clocking me out and watching whether I’m coming and going. So on the one hand that is the benefit of being self-employed, but it can also be a pitfall when it comes to managing your time.

I think that I underestimated for a very long time, the the importance of mindset in business. So not only defining your boundaries and defining your values, But really working on your mindset to believe that you can to have the confidence in yourself as a leader, but also to understand that business is a long game. You have to think of it. In the same terms. If you are a parent in the same way you think of parenting that you put in the work at the beginning, you may not see the rewards or the outcomes for several decades. And success is measured in decades. It’s not measured in days and it’s not measured in years. It is a very long-term goal, and it is a moving goal. So you can’t apply the same mindset you would use if you were playing baseball or if you were, coaching soccer or basketball or whatever, and so understanding those things I think has been really beneficial to moving myself forward, particularly in the last year.

And also intentionally scheduling downtime into your, and this is very hard if you’re trying to build a business and you’ve got small children, it is very difficult to have it all and to do it all well. And people told me that for years and I would not believe them. I was, I was contrarian and said, like, I know I’m going to,  I’ll show you. I will show you, it can be done and it can be done. But like you said there is always a hidden cost and that cost will often come at your own physical or mental health or both because your body will tell you when it’s time to stop. And so I am working really hard to build in quiet time into my schedule, time that I’m not at work and time that I am not parenting so that I can just think, and creativity will come in those small moments. Would that have been possible? When I had three kids under six, probably not. Unless I was, again, really super clear about my boundaries and not only clear about my boundaries, but willing to enforce them, because that’s the other thing, people, you will be pushed. So being gentle with yourself, but also being clear about those things and that unfortunately sometimes comes with experience.

I’m looking to scale this company now and I’m looking to solve the problems that were not possible to solve while we were home-based. I’m looking forward to building a fantastic team and I want, I want anointment to be a household name in Canada. It’s been a long and interesting journey and I hope I haven’t highlighted negative things more than positive things, because I think while there have been a lot of challenges, I am a curious mind.  I mean, I am a student of the school of hard knocks for sure. Anything that I have learned through the gift of opportunity of making mistakes. So when it sounds negative, I only mean it to be that this was how I learned the lesson to get better and to look at my mistakes as not so much cautionary tale, just that I think everyone has these sort of dark holes they have to pass through in order to become the next version of themselves.

Jennifer Chua: if you want to learn more about April and her all natural handcrafted skincare for pregnancy postpartum and menopause. Visit anointment.ca. And if you’re looking for a gift for a newly pregnant mom in your life, I particularly love the belly butter. You can follow along with April on her mission to support physical wellness in life transitions  on Facebook at @anointmentnaturalskincare, Instagram, or Twitter @anointment. April’s podcast. The ripple effect can be found anywhere you get your podcasts.