Kendall Glauber from Lonely Whale and the NextWave Plastics Consortium went from summers in Southern California to the non-profit world, keeping plastic waste from entering the ocean. In this episode, we learn how her efforts through Lonely Whale are helping to drive recycling systems change and how NextWave’s member companies are using ocean-bound plastics to create new goods. We discover the impact of ocean-bound plastics and explore how informal workers in developing countries are a critical part of the system, and why waste is being mismanaged. And learn how multinational corporations and small businesses can help prevent plastics from polluting our oceans and how the circular economy supports social change. 

If you want to learn more about Nextwave, the member companies and how they are making waves by choosing ocean-bound plastics visit www.nextwaveplastics.org. You can follow along with Nextwave on its mission to keep plastic in the economy and out of the ocean on twitter at nxtwaveplastics. Want to support Lonelywhale as a business? 1% for the planet members, you can find them listed as a non-profit, and they are always looking for new brands to join Nextwave’s consortium. 

Links from this episode

• NextWave Plastics

• Lonely Whale

• Forbes: The People Who Collect Most Ocean-Bound Plastic For Recycling Are Getting A Hand Up From A Group Of Companies And Brands

• Marine pollution. Plastic waste inputs from land into the ocean

• UN ocean treaty is ‘once in a lifetime’ chance to protect the high seas

Episode Transcript

[00:02:22] Jennifer Myers Chua: Across the world, 20 million waste pickers, salvage, reusable, or recyclable materials, and are responsible for 60% of the world’s recycling. These people, considered informal workers are collecting ocean bound, plastics that would otherwise end up in the ocean. And this waste is considered mismanaged. There’s no formal waste management system in place in these developing countries. And for discarded plastic to be considered ocean bound, it’s found within 50 kilometers of the coast. Close enough to be washed into the ocean with the next storm.

And the unfortunate reality is that the ocean is already filled with plastic. It’s nearly impossible to collect and damaging. 8 million, tons of plastic is entering the ocean each year. The equivalent of one garbage truck, full of plastic being dumped in the ocean every minute. And the plastic pollution crisis has only accelerated and continues to intensify around the world. Today’s guest Kendell Glauber works at Lonely Whale. A nonprofit on a mission to keep plastic waste from entering the ocean. She’s the director of next wave plastics, a consortium of companies supported by Lonely Whale who are working to keep plastic in the economy and out of the ocean. integrating recycled ocean bound plastic into their products and to help support other businesses in doing the same and drive systemic change

[00:03:43] Kendall Glauber: I was tracking the progress of NextWave from the beginning because I had a existing relationship with Dune Ives, the CEO of Lonely Whale, who has been a mentor of mine throughout my career. It was fairly serendipitous because my background professionally was In consulting, but primarily focused on sustainability. I have a masters of environmental management. And so I had done a lot of work around behavior change, particularly when it comes to sustainability, things like energy efficiency, climate change, and how people can move through the process of change to actually help to benefit the environment, change their behavior, things like that.

When I was growing up, I grew up in Southern California and spent every day of every summer at the beach. My summer camp was called junior guards and it was on the beach. And I was my happiest when I was swimming in the ocean. But it was in long beach, California, which is the port of long beach and the port of Los Angeles. Connected to each other. And also the Los Angeles river flows out right around that area. And so I was having the time of my life swimming in the waves, but also like couldn’t help but notice how much plastic there was in the ocean. Every summer, we would have red tides, which were algal blooms in the water.

There’d be dead birds or dead fish on the beach. So even from like a pretty early age, I had this really clear understanding of the connection between urban systems and the city that I lived in and the environment and, and the impacts to the environment, because I knew I’d been in other places where even maybe a few miles down the coast, I could see that the beaches were cleaner. I could see that, that they didn’t have the same issues with plastic pollution. It was less intense because it wasn’t as close to some of these like urban outlets. And so I understood that really, there was this large impact, but it wasn’t any one person fault. Like it wasn’t any one person who doing it.

It was a lot of people doing a lot of individually, potentially harmless things that then all kind of fed up into this broader systemic problem. That I think actually drove a lot of my curiosity throughout my career in terms of solving systemic problems and figuring out like how do we think about this, how do we come at this from a way where we can actually change what’s happening at a larger scale to meet these goals that help protect our environment as well, but that also don’t make it so that we can’t live our lives and have our businesses and make money from the things that we’ve invented and that people feel really passionate about. And I truly believe that there’s a balance there. And so I think that kind of bringing together those pieces really positions me well to someone that can help do something like convene a consortium that helps position these conversations.

And I think that what’s really great for them, the business people and the companies who are trying to figure out like, okay, how do I make this work from a business perspective is, being a part of something like a consortium or having, key advisors that are helping to guide the work that aren’t just your like investors or your peers in the business that have some more of a, especially if you are working into sustainability and environmental impact or any kind of impact social impact, all the things like there are incredible experts that are doing this work that have the scientific or Process understanding of what the ideal might be. And then you can understand as a business owner, how your business can then help support those goals, whether then explicitly working against them.

I have this opportunity and it could likely be a business differentiator, like my sustainability or my social responsibility, or, the way that I’m investing in new supply streams and innovative materials. This is something that can differentiate me as a business. And at this point, consumers are not putting up with any greenwashing. Like there is, they’re very invested in wanting to know the truth. And so having that transparency, having that knowledge like seeking out those inputs, is something that’s, that’s really interesting.

[00:08:28] Jennifer Myers Chua: When we go back to your junior guard days and you’re playing in the ocean. Do you remember any other moments where you became interested in sustainability? Is there anything that stands out in your mind of like this happened in your life and it led you on this path?

[00:08:43] Kendall Glauber: There’s definitely a few, I think. It’s everything from when I was in college, I was at an event and there was a booth from a local environmental group and they had these jars full of water with these things in them. And they looked just like jellyfish. Like it was, it was almost like a cartoon version of a jellyfish. And I was like, this is weird. And I talked to the people there and they were like, this is what happens when balloons get released and go up into the atmosphere and they expand and then pop and they. Part of it gets shredded, but it stays connected at the part where the knot is. And then when it ends up in the water and it’s bobbing, it looks just like sea life. And that broke my heart. And that I think was actually the moment that took me from the kid being like playing in the ocean, thinking about that, this stuff shouldn’t be here to, oh my gosh. There’s something that I need to do about this. so then I think that, that was a huge moment for me, in terms of just recognizing. How the unintended consequences of the things that we don’t think about and how something like a huge celebration that is, commemorated with a balloon release is something that’s actually really creating so much more harm than good.

And understanding that we’re all connected. I think for me, that was a big piece of it. Connection for me has been a big key value in my life in terms of my connection to my family and my friends and my community and the places where I’ve felt the happiest and most fulfilled have been the places where I’ve had that deep sense of connection and community.

And so I think that brings me back to the idea of How I was talking about systems, thinking like, that sounds like such a buzzword, but really it’s about like how we’re all connected. Like it’s all part of this broader system and everything’s impacting each other. And so like, how can we be more intentional about understanding the impacts that our systems are currently having and ways that we can continue to improve them? Through NextWave. I get the opportunity to do that by helping to continue to grow and deepen this community of brands that have a desire to do good, and help them figure out the way forward together and the way that they’re connected rather than trying to all scrape by and figure it out on their own.

Ocean bound, plastic is really the plastic that is most vulnerable to ending up in the ocean. As many of us know, there’s a bit of an issue with the plastic that we use on land, ending up in the environment, and then in the ocean affecting Marine ecosystems and Marine animals. That plastic is continuing to enter the ocean on a regular basis. In fact, there’s about 12 million metric, tons of plastic that are entering the ocean every single year, that is equivalent to about one and a half garbage trucks being dumped into the ocean every minute. All the time it’s just constantly happening and this is a huge problem.

And so there’s been this development of an industry around how do we stop the flow of this plastic into the ocean before it gets there by setting up systems that help to capture this plastic, in the places where it’s most vulnerable to being in the environment. that gets us to ocean bound plastic. So ocean plastic is defined based on some scientific research out of the university of Georgia. It’s defined as plastic that’s collected within 50 kilometers of a coastline, generally in areas with little or absolutely no waste management. So there’s no truck coming down the street to pick up their waste on a weekly basis. They don’t really have any other recourse. Like this is people in neighborhoods, maybe businesses, companies in places in the world where no one is coming to pick up the trash.

So next wave plastics is a consortium of multinational brands who are all invested in helping to change the trajectory on ocean plastic pollution by sourcing this material, demonstrating that it has commercial value and should be collected and recycled, and that they’re investing the time and energy into using that as new material in their products that they’re putting out on the market. And so our consortium includes a number of brands that you’re probably familiar with. It includes Dell technologies, HP Inc, Herman Miller, human scale, who are more in like interior design and office furniture, Ikea, interface that makes carpeting, Trek bicycles. As well as Shinola, a lifestyle goods company, variative, which makes a number of different packaging applications. CPI card group makes credit cards and soul guard is a startup that makes backpacks and travel goods and other lifestyle goods as well. So just even listening to that list, you can hear that it’s a whole array of different types of products, different industries. There’s really not a limit to what you can do with recycled plastic content, because you can put it into all the things that we make out of plastic.

And so the idea here is this commitment to come together as a consortium to share information so that no one of these companies has to figure this out on their own. They all recognize that this is an issue. They have the ability to help provide at least some level of a solution and so in doing that Each within their own product development, as well as then collaborating together to be successful in doing it, then they’re able to create much more impact and, and help to really turn off the tap on plastic pollution.

[00:15:11] Jennifer Myers Chua: And I mean, these are really household brands. Like I’m talking to you right now, sitting in a Herman Miller chair at an Ikea desk using a Dell monitor. It’s interesting that these brands would want to get involved in this. I’m wondering. How did they come together? What is the benefit for them of joining? why would these brands commit to this? Other than that shared knowledge?

[00:15:31] Kendall Glauber: Yeah, that’s a great question. The consortium itself was founded in 2017, but the conversations really started in 2016, between lonely whale and Dell technologies. And there was this idea that Dell really wanted to be using ocean bound, plastic as a material. Products and packaging. But that they could maybe have an impact on a few beaches and Indonesia. But that, that wasn’t necessarily going to reach the scale of the problem. And so there was this acknowledgement from the beginning that this wasn’t something that they could do on their own, that it was something that they need that other brands and other companies needed to join in on the fight.

But it isn’t easy. I mean, the whole reason that plastic in these areas is ending up in the environment and in the ocean is because the systems there are broken. We have a linear system that pumps just immense amounts of plastic packaging and goods to places all over the world. But there’s no real feasible way for it to get back and to be disposed of properly or reused. Ideally. And because of that broken system, it means that the systems aren’t necessarily set up to incentivize just turning the ship around and getting the plastic back to where it can be used again. So the idea of setting up Ocean bound plastic supply chains really takes an additional layer of investment and additional layer of knowledge around how to work with recycled material, particularly material that may have been exposed to the environment, maybe more degraded or dirty, maybe being collected and recycled at facilities that aren’t as advanced as some of the recycling facilities that are processing the stuff that comes out of our homes in the U S and Canada. There’s just more to it. And there’s fewer incentives that are just making this super cost-effective, really quick, easy to plug and play. But that doesn’t make it less worthwhile to do. In fact, I think it makes it more worthwhile to do, because it means that the products that these companies are then producing are not only just cool products.

They’re not only made with sustainable materials, but they’re also made with sustainable materials that are having incredible impact in places that are left behind by the existing, like systemic structures that exist across the globe. That is not the fault of the individual people in Indonesia. It’s this whole large system.

So basically the whole point then of joining and being a part of this larger group is really that these companies are breaking down barriers for each other in terms of recommending one of the biggest parts of this is that we’re, developing a network of a global network of ocean bound plastics suppliers. And so the idea there is that they’re being able to understand where there are. Recyclers and suppliers of material that actually have good potential to deliver a product that they can turn into something that’s useful. So a lot of it is understanding who’s out there. What’s the network who’s doing this work, where are the needs? As well as connecting to the experts, whether those are the scientific experts that are figure, understanding the problem. Or the implementation experts who understand how to go in on the ground and set up a system that is socially responsible, but also, you know, environmentally beneficial in, in places with limited waste management and more. There’s the financial side. There’s a lot of that. So a lot of it is bringing all the right people together into the space and breaking down those barriers to success with working with Ocean bound plastics. Now the consortium has been around for four years and these companies are in many cases, the leaders who have charted this course.

And so we’re now turning that around and working more to develop thought leadership and, helping to guide others in navigating this space as well. We’re adding that credibility and that knowledge and kind of paying it forward as well, in terms of NextWave and our member companies contributing to additional thought leadership that grows the pie in terms of the ability to actually continue to expand and scale this industry around ocean plastic recycling.

[00:20:02] Jennifer Myers Chua: So these member companies, is there a collective goal in terms of impact?

[00:20:07] Kendall: Absolutely. In 2018, we set out with our eyes on the prize of hitting 25,000 metric, tons of Ocean bound plastic from the ocean by the end of 2025, that is equivalent to 1.2 billion single use plastic water bottles. So Yeah the scale is big. We’re aiming for a large amount for these companies to actually use. In the grand scheme of things. It is a drop in the bucket, but the idea is really. Trying to be the catalyst for then these greater systems that can kind of be up and running and continue to grow and grow and grow from there.

[00:20:46] Jennifer Myers Chua: I just had a thought, which is outside of creating things with ocean bound plastics, the NextWave member companies, are they working in other ways to reduce their use of plastic? I’m just wondering if that’s in their consciousness as well.

[00:21:00] Kendall Glauber: It’s one thing to be replacing the plastic with recycled content, but it’s another thing to be thinking about how we reduce that overall impact together in the first place. So as part of signing up for membership, each of the member companies agrees to reduce their overall use of plastic by making an assessment. What their current footprint is and then ways to reduce that overall. And many of them have been doing this even before being next wave plastics members, or are continuing to deepen their commitment to that. We don’t have a specific goal that’s based on that, but helping the member companies share that information so that they can also learn from each other, similarly, in this same forum where they’re sharing information and learning from each other about ocean bound plastic. They’re also doing that about ways to reduce their plastic overall

one great example, Trek bike ran a pilot to reduce the amount of plastic that was in the packaging for their bicycles. That goes to a bicycle store where they’d assemble the bike and then you’d purchase the bike. But it has to get there first. And there’s a lot of components that need to be properly protected in order to get from their manufacturing site, their warehouse, and then to that store. And so, they did a really comprehensive look at how do we try and get rid of every single piece of plastic in this thing that we can. And I think that they were successful down to maybe a couples, zip ties, and they were even looking into some alternative solutions and, and they’ve even really heard from many of their partners in the actual stores saying that the amount of plastic that they’re throwing away has been reduced as a result of that. And so they ran the pilot with one bike model, but it was so successful that they’re expanding that across a number of their other, bicycle models as well.

These are like wonderful companies that are doing good work. And also the delay on bicycles during the pandemic with the supply chain challenges. It’s been very real. I think what’s really a Testament to the commitment of some of these companies, is that even with the level of challenges that they’re facing in their supply chains with the pandemic and, global shipping issues, in the cost of goods going up, is that they’ve continued to be committed to their ocean bound plastic sources, the relationships that they’ve developed with suppliers and the products that they’re putting out there. We’ve continued to grow, the amount of plastic that the member companies are diverting year over year. Basically doubling each year. And that hasn’t slowed down. It’s actually accelerated since, since the pandemic. So it’s really great to see the level of commitment coming from these number companies.

[00:23:58] Jennifer Myers Chua: Do you have any other insight into the ways that we either humans or industry or small business? Just, we collectively use plastics? and how it. Existing use of plastics, maybe less than ideal.

[00:24:12] Kendall Glauber: The biggest thing is it’s not that plastic itself is bad. It’s an inert material or it’s a material out there that, serves a purpose. And so there’s many places where absolutely it makes sense to have plastic. It helps us create a lot of things that we maybe wouldn’t have invented. Otherwise it helps us ship a number of things. Further, the safer, lighter. And so there’s a lot of reasons that it makes sense to, to have plastic, to continue to use plastic. It’s more about why we’re using it. And then really what the plan is at the end of the day for what to do with it. And the biggest problem there is single use plastic hands down, across the globe. That is a problem is the single use plastic that is used once and then it never degrades. It doesn’t go away. And so, it ends up, even if it’s in a landfill, it’s taking up a ton of space in a landfill for the fact that someone was using it for a moment. And so the biggest issue. It’s really then how do we reduce the plastic that isn’t helpful.

That is more detrimental than it is useful. And like remove that from the economy in many ways, and then be able to really focus on how to be using plastic in a way that is more responsible. So. plastic packaging or reducing the use of things like the stuff you hear, people harping on all the time, plastic bags, plastic straws, plastic utensils. For example, utensils can’t be recycled. They can’t be properly captured in a municipal recycling facility and recycled into something new, uh, Exist forever and they’re just trash. And so it’s rethinking those things and how can we be creating alternatives? And then revisiting the need for single use plastic. In the meantime, it’s also about creating more robust systems for capturing and recycling the plastic. That is out there and designing products to be recyclable so that they can be captured, they can be recycled. And they then can actually be part of a more holistic system that keeps the phrase that we use all the time at next wave keeps that plastic in the economy and out of the ocean.

[00:26:52] Jennifer Myers Chua: So it should the onus beyond the brands then, or the governments that are developing these recycling systems. What do you think about that?

[00:27:00] Kendall Glauber: Absolutely. I think that the onus should definitely be on brands in many cases, that there should be a deeper level of accountability around the plastic that is being sent out, what it looks like, whether it’s recyclable and then what happens to it. It’s at its end of life.

There are many policies across the globe. We’re kind of doing the hashing out what this will look like around extended producer responsibility and having it be that the brands are more responsible for that material that they’re putting out there. But that can’t be the only thing. It’s easy to point the fingers at the big mean corporations and say, you fix the problem. There needs to be more of the system. So absolutely the governments need to be engaged in terms of creating good policy around plastic and good systems and, everything from the municipal level up to the, federal government and then consumers need to be engaged as well and take responsibility for their trash. Understand how to dispose of what they do have or return it to wherever it needs to go to get into the proper return stream at some point. So there is a role to play. I think that historically that’s been pointed towards consumers and we need to shift this to a more brand government centric and then holistic system.

So that. It’s something where everyone’s bearing some responsibility for making sure that this happens. And the thing that’s most promising about that is that the UN just released a mandate for creating a treaty on plastic and how we treat plastics as a global economy. And so I think there’s a lot of promise there in that mandate in terms of really driving for how we look at plastics and its full life cycle, not just what happens at the end of its life, once it’s been used, but really from design through use and into reuse. There’s going to be a lot of changes over the next few years in terms of how. I handled that as a like globe, and also at the state level. So lots of that? is coming so positive developments there.

[00:29:20] Jennifer Myers Chua: And someone with a design background, I am just completely enamored with these innovative ways that some of these companies are using ocean bound plastics. Anytime I see this, I just, I love to see what they’re creating. Do you have any examples that you can share from maybe businesses with the next wave, maybe without the have like use cases for products they’re creating with these plastics.

[00:29:45] Kendall Glauber: The member companies have been working on their products for anywhere from two to six or seven years at this point. More than 330 products on the market that are made with ocean bound plastic, just from these 12 companies. And so many of the products that I think are some really great examples are from HP. They really invested in this inspiring collection and recycling operation in Haiti where there is almost no waste management systems and really started. Integrating recycled bottles into ink cartridges, which is a core part of their business. It’s not like something that’s off on the side. That was like a one-off thing. They really went and integrated this into something that is a core element of their business. But they’ve really taken that commitment deeper and are innovating with this material to ensure that it can perform in a technology application.

And they’ve been able to integrate ocean bound plastic, into components that are in a huge number of their laptops, their monitors and other technology as well. So I think that that’s a really great example. I think some of the iconic ones, even that you mentioned earlier, you said you’re sitting in a Herman Miller chair, Herman Miller, just in 2021, they launched a suite of products that are made with ocean bound plastic, most iconically the Aeron chair just last year they launched these chairs and they’re in the process of rolling them out and soon all Aeron chairs will be released with Ocean bound plastic as the standard, this iconic piece within their product line. They were really looking at how do we really make an impact in something that, will make a difference. And that will really help tell this story to our customers as well.

One other thing that we haven’t talked about but that I think is really interesting is that fishing nets are also a big component of this conversation. So a lot of the plastic that we think about is the single use plastic, the water bottles, the baggies. But fishing nets are the most dangerous. type of Marine plastic pollution. And so a number of our member companies have been working with reclaimed fishing, net material in their products as well. Human scale really stands out in terms of that. They were actually the first to launch an office chair made with ocean bound plastic, they have two chairs currently, and are working to develop more products made with recycled fishing nets. And the idea is that there’s about two pounds of recycled fishing nets in each of these chairs, but these chairs are designed to last for 50 years. It’s trash. This was like going in the ocean and now it’s locked up in this chair will be around for the next 50 years at least. And so the idea really is there’s lots of different ways to go about this. There’s lots of ways to get this into packaging and other things, but what NextWave member companies have really been able to demonstrate is that it can also go into these really premium products. Whether it’s a Shinola watch or Solgaard backpack, or interface, carpeting, there’s all these places that it can go that are really designed to be these iconic products that you have around you in your life and that you live with that are making the most of, what, otherwise just would have been pollution.

[00:33:26] Jennifer Myers Chua: In terms of social impacts, like how are these communities all around the world that are, ocean front communities, how are they getting involved? And what you’re doing with NextWave… how is this impacting them?

[00:33:39] Kendall Glauber: That is a huge component of the work that we do working in the environmental space and in climate change. I think one of the things that I’ve really realized is that. That a lot of this stuff is really about people. And I think that the social component of this cannot be extricated from the environmental component. The people who are living in communities, where they don’t have waste management or oftentimes living in trash. And so what’s great about these, this work is that. In many cases. The ocean bound plastic supply chains are relying on networks of informal workers who are going out collecting plastic that’s recyclable. And selling that material to an aggregator or a recycler who we’ll sell that material on, into an ocean bound plastic supply stream, but they’re relying on that income of collecting plastic for their livelihood. What’s incredible is that waste pickers across the globe in 2016, it was estimated that they were responsible for 60% of global recycling. So at a global scale, this is our most successful recycling system. These people that are living in poverty. Oftentimes they’re part of marginalized groups, but are carrying our recycling system on their back and are the heroes of protecting the ocean from plastic. So one of the things that we focus on at NextWave is really making sure that as ocean bound plastic supply chains are being developed, the social component is absolutely central to the work that is being done. And that we’re ensuring that those workers are receiving fair pay, that they are also receiving benefits like health benefits and other support systems that can help them have better livelihoods, be able to educate their children. All of that, have it be so that their children can go and be in school and don’t have to work.

 I think some standout examples are HPS work with their partners first mile and work in Haiti where they’ve provided work over a thousand workers with jobs and have really helped to create a support system in Haiti for these workers. That then has transcended even things like the earthquake that happened there recently, they were able to help provide resources directly to many of the workers in their system to actually ensure that they were able to get whatever support they could provide. Dell technologies is doing incredible work in Indonesia and supporting communities there. And all of this within NextWave coming together to compare notes on what has been successful, what the needs are and how to ensure that social responsibility goes beyond just the factory level and down into those networks of informal workers.

One of the things that we did as a consortium was created a working group specifically on this issue. And what came out of that was a framework for what a socially responsible ocean bound plastics, supply chain looks like and it really runs through how to understand what the issues in a supply chain and then really how to lay the groundwork and the foundation for supporting a more socially responsible program and system, so that we’re really helping to articulate what are the actual challenges that are out there. And then how do you do it in a way that doesn’t just replace the systems that exist? It doesn’t just come in and say, okay, we’re going to set up our, what a, whatever a Western waste management system looks like, but really works to center the workers that are there doing this work already. And helping to improve their lives, helping to improve the systems, helping to bring more resources so that they can do that better. And that that’s can be beneficial to those that workforce and to those communities in these areas.

[00:37:53] Jennifer Myers Chua: And if you own a business and you want to create impact. Are there opportunities for businesses outside of the NextWave members to become members or interact with you in some way or benefit from your learnings even.

[00:38:07] Kendall Glauber: Absolutely. So we are constantly walking, welcoming new members to come and join this work. Any company who is interested in sourcing Ocean bound plastic. Getting it into products. Whether you are interested in trying to figure it out, and don’t really know where to get started or maybe. There may be some who are further down the line and have already been testing material or developed products, but want to be a part of a group that can help to continue to scale what they’re doing or maybe you’ve come up across specific roadblock that you need to work through, and it might be helpful to have some folks who can help you kind of sort through the challenges that you might be facing to figure out a way through, to be successful with using this material. That’s what we’re here for. We’re looking to grow and to scale this and to expand the impact that we’re able to have to get. And I would say though, that there are a number of resources that are coming out of NextWave. If you maybe aren’t ready to make the leap for membership. things like the framework for social responsibility are really useful tools for navigating some of the ambiguity of this space.

One thing that we have coming out this year is a series of case studies that we’re calling our changemaker series and that’s going to come out in april and may and June of this year, it’ll be a running series with one coming out every week. That’ll focus on a particular topic where NextWave member companies have had key learnings or found particular success or work through a particular challenge. And so just keeping an eye out for those and, taking a look at what information might be most useful for you there? I’m always happy to talk to companies who are trying to figure out how, how do we have better impact is Ocean bound plastic, the right thing for us. And if it is where do we go next? And I’d love to help on that.

[00:40:14] Jennifer Myers Chua: So if I’m a small business owner and I’m creating a product you think there’s an opportunity for me to access ocean bound plastic waste, or would this be an option as this community grows? Like what can a small business owner do in terms of creating this impact in this way?

[00:40:31] Kendall Glauber: Yeah, it’s a great question. And there’s a lot of really incredible small companies that I’ve talked to, who really are invested in being able to do that. I think the biggest challenge is that there is a issue of scale and needing to have a certain level of scale that you’re operating at for it. Then to make economic sense to. Be able to buy the material. And also there’s the challenge sometimes of finding manufacturers who can make a product that you might want to make for your business, that know how to work with ocean bound plastic, or have that in their wheelhouse. There are definitely some that can work at that smaller scale. But I think that it’s going to be the best fit for kind of small to mid-sized businesses who are able to start with kind of a larger investment or that have existing products and are already operating at scale and then want to integrate ocean bound plastic into some existing product lines.

 If you’re really starting from something new it can be challenging, but it isn’t impossible. It really is about finding the right partners. And so I think that in terms of finding the right suppliers out there who might be able to connect you up and provide the right information. There’s some that I would maybe point you in the direction of, and I’m happy to be a resource for anyone who’s interested in that. As well as really just seeking out information from others in the space who have done this, finding out who they’re working with and then piecing it together from there. The one thing I would say is. Don’t be afraid of making mistakes or potentially getting push back. As I said, this is about creating a system where systems don’t exist. So it isn’t as plug and play as it might be nice to have it be. But that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible and that it doesn’t mean that it’s not worthwhile. Keep seeking information, seeking champions who do know this space and continuing to push forward to try and see what you can do.

After your work with ocean experts and Lonely Whale. And now all of these heads of businesses that are working with plastics. I can only imagine that you have a lot of insight into how we as a society are changing how we interact with plastics. I’m just wondering if this has made you more hopeful for our future.

A thousand percent. So much more hopeful for what we can create. I am also scared. I will say that there’s a lot of things that can, and absolutely will go wrong in terms of creating a more sustainable future, where we use materials and natural resources more wisely. Where we treat our natural systems with respect and dignity, and. I can see it. And I think what’s sometimes really difficult is knowing maybe an end destination that feels like this utopia and looking at where we are now, which is that plastic producing is, is plastic. Production is increasing and plastic pollution is increasing and all of that. It’s those data day shifts the little incremental, tiny things that people are doing every day, um, that are moving us more towards that utopian future. And that’s a lot of what we work towards at lonely whale as a organization. But really what I see come to life through NextWave is , I’m not talking to Dell technologies. Like I’m talking to this specific individual who is instigating change in this organization and helping to figure out ways to really articulate why it makes sense for a huge company like Dell to invest in this project to help communities in Indonesia who have too much plastic waste. And the fact that they’ve been able to go from this nugget of an idea to launching products out in the world, that they’re able to tell this story to their customers. is an upswell.

That’s something that’s growing and that can continue to grow. And so I think that in walking through that, like sometimes slow, excruciating process of change. That doesn’t seem like it’s going anywhere. I see that it’s going somewhere and I can understand that, like that is how change happens. It doesn’t happen in like this huge. Sweeping change. It may happen sometimes in leaps and bounds, but a lot of it is about that, like that preparation work and the individuals who are committed to not being afraid to be like, I see this opportunity. Let’s go get it.

[00:45:40] Jennifer Myers Chua: If you want to learn more about NextWave, the member companies and how they’re making waves by choosing ocean bound plastics, visit https://www.nextwaveplastics.org/. You can follow along with NextWave on their mission to keep plastic in the economy and out of the ocean on Twitter at next waves, plastics without the first E. Want to support lonely whale as a business. 1% for the planet members, you can find them listed as a nonprofit, and they’re always looking for new brands to join NextWave’s consortium.

Kate Pepler from the Tare Shop was feeling overwhelmed with the doom and gloom narrative of our earth’s health and decided to do something about it. In this episode, we learn how Kate’s lifelong relationship with the water and a move to a coastal town influenced how she sees the world. We discover how Kate’s passions including sailing and environmental education and community building led her to entrepreneurship, we chat about why Kate decided to open a package-free store and cafe,  how shopping habits are shifting, why reducing plastic pollution is so important to her, how we can influence the world around us by choosing to support and shop mindfully, and how the interest in reducing waste, and a strong community focus had led to the Tare Shops success.

If you want to learn more about Kate, package free living and shop her carefully curated collection of low waste goods, visit thetareshop.com. Looking to learn more about zero-waste? And the steps you can take to reduce plastic in your life? There are a lot of tips and resources in Kate’s blog. If you want to follow along with Kate on her mission to make package-free living accessible on Instagram at @thetareshop

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:29] Jennifer: It’s summer in Bedford, Nova Scotia, and Kate Peppler is teaching sailing as she has been for the last few summers. Having grown up with a love for water and the outdoors. Kate felt like she was in her element and it looked like her future would include spending summers on Canada’s east coast teaching and then sailing south for the winters. But after graduating from university with a degree in sustainability, environmental science and Marine biology. Kate was feeling depressed and overwhelmed by the state of the world.

[00:04:03] Kate: It felt like I spent five years studying all the ways that we just destroying the planet without much like positive focus or here’s what has been done. Here’s what is happening. So after graduating, I started a website called our positive planet, which was really just for like my mental health. The whole purpose behind it was to share environmental success stories to inspire action. When I just get bombarded with the doom and gloom, I kind of just want to bury my head in the sand and ignore it all, or turn on Netflix and not take anything else new in But when I read about other folks doing inspiring things, that’s what really inspires me. So by sharing positive environmental success stories, I was trying to help like drag myself out of that doom and gloom slump. So I, through that, I started reading about these zero waste stores popping up all over and kind of got inspired to try to reduce my own waste.

[00:04:53] Jennifer: And with that, Kate began to look at ways to reduce her own waste, beginning to feel excited about the opportunity to create change. In Halifax where she lived, she was struggling to do so. There was no retail outlet that made plastic free living easy or accessible. And in the off season from sailing, Kate would run around to a variety of shops for a variety of things, without packaging realizing that this isn’t realistic for most people with full-time jobs or families to care for. And through setting some personal challenges for herself when it came to tracking and reducing waste. And blogging about her environmental wins and challenges, Kate began to realize that there was a gap to be filled in her community. And she set out to create a one-stop shop for bulk, grocery and personal care, all package free. And in the years, since The Tare Shop has opened. They’ve expanded, created a strong community following and Kate has continued teaching. Something she loves to do. Although now she teaches individuals, schools, and companies, how to make more sustainable choices.

[00:06:00] Kate: I grew up on Toronto island, which is a small community. There’s about 250 people who live there. It’s a largely car-free community, just a 10 minute ferry ride from downtown Toronto. So I grew up spending a lot of time in nature. The school goes up to grade six on the island, and then you have to go into the city. Until my last year, I think there was no playground or play structures. It was like a field and trees and we played outside. We built forts. We toboggan down a hill.

I grew up sailing, doing canoe trips and loved swimming. I live like a couple of minutes from the beach on the island. And I remember as a kid, seeing a ton of garbage on the beaches always and not really piecing together why that might be or where it comes from. I remember there’s always like the plastic tampon applicators. Oh, there’s like a lot of women on boats with periods. Cause this is like on the water that came from the water. Not understanding that big disconnect that garbage in the water largely comes from land, not from boats. So I think I, yeah, I’ve always been loved being outside and being in nature. And I think we can’t even say any more that we need to protect the environment for future generations. We need to protect it for our generation. Like we are directly seeing impacts of climate change and pasta pollution today. Like this isn’t a future problem. It’s a definitely a future problem, but it’s also a very much a right now problem.

[00:07:28] Jennifer: Do you think that growing up on an island, even though, like you said, you’re only 10 minutes away from downtown Toronto. but you think that really I’m trying to think of what the difference would be between someone who has the opportunity to grow up climbing trees and going out and swimming within a two minute walk from someone that lives in like an urban center. I’m wondering if you think that was an influence on your life.

[00:07:49] Kate: I definitely think so, but also like everybody’s different. I might have friends who grew up on the island who don’t feel that same deep connection that I do or like alternatively, there could be kids who grew up in very like urban environments who do also feel the deep connection. So I think it was partly, we like live growing up on Toronto island, but also like my parents. We went on camping trips as a kid and Northern Ontario. I feel like I’ve always been exposed to nature in a very special way.

[00:08:18] Jennifer: Was there a moment in your life where you ever said that you wanted to create change, come wondering how you got to here. Like really you’re an advocate for change. I was wondering if you know, when that fire started inside of you.

[00:08:33] Kate: I’ve never thought of it that I can’t think of like a, a pivotal moment. In my life where I was like, I need to, to be a change maker if or create change. Growing up again on the island. Like it’s a very, it was very close community. So we knew all of our neighbors. So I feel like I’ve always had a deep sense of community that I’ve loved. I was running the sailing school for six years. So through that, like built a big community around the sailing school. Like I grew the participation from like, A very small number to like a very, very large number and the time that I was there. So again, like coming back to that like community and like fostering that community minded spirit I think is really important to me. And I think via The Tare Shop have again, created another community of people who want to shop differently and want to shop smart.

[00:09:26] Jennifer: So, how did you come up with the actual idea for the business and then how did you move it forward and actually create a business from your idea?

[00:09:32] Kate: The idea for The Tare Shop came about just by reading about other package, free stores, popping up all over, knowing that I wanted one in Halifax. And in university, I remember like being in like an environmental course or sustainability course and just seeing. Tim Horton’s cups and almost every single students that like disposable cups and like, people will just do what is easy for them. So it’s just easiest for them to grab a to-go cup. They’re just always going to grab that to go. So thinking it would be cool to have a zero waste cafe that just doesn’t have disposable coffee cups. And I had kind of forgotten about that for a couple of years until the idea? for The Tare Shop started in my brain and thought that would be a really cool way to tie a coffee shop into a grocery store so that it’s not just a place where people go. It can then again, become a, like a community space, host events Makes it a little bit more of an experience than, than just going grocery shopping.

And then I was home one January visiting my family, and we were all lying on my bed, hanging out, discussing The Tare Shop. It was like very, very early, early days and dreaming up what the name could be. And I forgot who said it, but maybe my mom or my sister said Tare, Tare Shop, The Tare Shop?

Tare is the deduction of the container weight which ties again into that bulk shopping. And then to start it, I spent a year or two thinking about the business plan. Writing. Putting it down. Cause I was like, I can’t do this. I don’t know how to run a business. That’s a really important step. A, any lender is going to need to see your business plan to make sure you know what you’re doing, but it’s really also. Was really helpful to think out all the different aspects and make you do your research and your homework.

So writing the business plan, coming up with cashflow projections, which was really hard because there’s no market research or data on what people spend at a bulk store. So I ended up using social media. As I’m like a huge tool to do that research. So ask people, like, what do you spend on groceries a week? What do you spend at the bulk store? How often do you go? And use that data to help inform my cashflow projections? And then I was trying to find a property by myself. Eventually was like, I don’t know how to talk to commercial property people or big building owners. So ended up finding an amazing woman, Linda who helped me find both locations for, for The Tare Shop. Was a huge advocate and helping me understand what, what were my rights and what I was allowed to ask for.

[00:12:05] Jennifer: And if anyone hasn’t been to a store like yours, could you explain how that works and what the experience is like of going to like a zero waste store? I think a lot of people don’t have access to those yet in their communities. Lots of room for you to expand.

[00:12:19] Kate: So every store is going to be different. Company or business will have their own way of doing things. So I can speak to what The Tare Shop is like. So you walk in, you bring your own containers but if you don’t have any, we also sell repurpose containers for 50 cents. Just there’s already, we don’t sell new containers because there’s already so many containers in the waste stream already.

So folks can donate their containers to us and we’ll wash them and sanitize them. The 50 cents just to help recoup some of that labor for sanitizing and, and managing all that. So then you bring your containers up to the counter and this staff will weigh all of your containers. And we’ve. And we’ve found that to be a really important piece, that some other stores, you weigh your own containers, but we really like weighing the customer’s containers. Cause again, it is a lot of people’s first times doing this, or maybe COVID happen. And they haven’t been in, in a couple of years, so they forget how things work.

When people come in, we have that opportunity to check in, see how they’re doing, see how their day’s going and offer up that piece of education. So have they been here before? Do you need a refresher on how it works? And then once the containers are all weighed, we have filling stations. And that was the thing that came out of COVID that will stick around forever for us. Before we didn’t have a designated place where you did your filling people kind of just like perched up on the countertops or on the coffee tables. So now we actually have different stations where you can put all of your containers.

Bring the jar of almonds and chocolate caramels to your station. And do the filling there instead of trying to juggle glass jars above the ground. And then the beauty and one of my favorite reasons to shop package free is that if you only need a teaspoon of something for a recipe, you can literally just buy a teaspoon. This was probably Thanksgiving Canadian Thanksgiving. So late October mid-October I dunno. But we had just been open and a dad came in who was visiting their kid and was cooking the Thanksgiving meal and the kid didn’t have any of the right spices. So the dad came in and bought like, exactly. The number of teaspoons of each spice that he needed to make their family tradition meal. And that was so cool because I think that really just like highlights, you don’t need to buy a huge quantity if you just need a little bit. And then, Yeah. So once you fill up all of your containers, you bring them back And the staff deducts the container weight from the total, since the name Tare.

[00:14:51] Jennifer: And when you began to stock your shelves, when you’ve opened your store on your, began to stock your shelves, and you began to look into conventional goods that are available through wholesale, did you find anything surprising?

[00:15:03] Kate: What has surprised me pleasantly is the number of local suppliers who are willing to work with us and trade containers back and forth so that we don’t have their products packaged. That’s been a really happy happy surprise and like so grateful for all of our suppliers. There hasn’t been anything that’s been like too shocking or two surprise. But one thing that I did, that was pretty interesting for bringing in products. When we opened the first store we used, I think it was literally like 40 products that we stocked. And these were things that I again use the social media to, to ask people what they wanted us to sell and pick the most important ones or the most common ones.

And then we’ve brought products in and we’ve grown our offerings based on customer requests. So. The only products that haven’t moved or haven’t sold well, are the ones that I brought in that nobody had asked for. So that way we know what we are selling people want, and it won’t go to waste.

[00:16:03] Jennifer: And I assume that your background in sustainability does give you an unique advantage here, but has it in, let me try that again, but has it influenced how you make purchasing decisions when you are shopping for your store?

[00:16:16] Kate: I think being really. Like cautious, like, especially with any of the lifestyle products, making sure that I’m research thing, researching them to make sure that the company is one that we align with them, want to work with and even just like down to values and avoiding greenwashing. Which is unfortunately very, very common now is being eco and natural and sustainable is very trendy.

Making sure that the companies are doing what they’re saying they are doing.

[00:16:50] Jennifer: Yeah. As someone who owns a distribution company, myself too, one of the things that is always top of mind for us, uh, and it’s really the, the impacts of shipping.

And packaging. And it’s something that I think that most people don’t consider, like they’ll go into a store, they’ll think, oh, it’s local, because they’re only thinking about how they’re getting that from the shelf into their own home.

But they’re not necessarily thinking about how it got here in the first place. What are the costs associated? What are the costs associated with creating something like a traditional. Retail store in terms of environmental impact, like what else are you considering that we’re not thinking about.

[00:17:33] Kate: That’s such a great question. Cause even when I was living, like I still live low waste, but I used to have like the trash jar that I like recorded my waste in. Cause I think that’s a great tool to understand the type of waste you’re creating.

But even then, like that’s not the whole picture. You don’t see the waste that the store had, the packing material that it came to them and you don’t see all of the upstream waste as well. So I think the upstream waste is a huge piece that we don’t see. And all of those, like yeah. Upstream costs. So the emissions that that product took to get from where it was manufactured, the materials, the, where it was manufactured to getting it to the distributor, to get it to the retail store.

So all of those emission costs all of the social costs. So was the product did. Employer who made the product, pay their employees fairly with fair wages? How were they workers treated? So those are all, and I, you can’t talk about.

environmental issues without talking about social issues. They’re so intertwined.

So those are also all hidden costs and like with things like fast fashion the material is so, or the product is so cheap because all of those other costs are being captured in the product. They aren’t paying their workers fairly. They aren’t regarding any environmental impact, most likely. So those costs just aren’t being captured in those products.

[00:18:55] Jennifer: And so you’ve achieved B Corp certification. Congratulations. As a small business owner.

Exactly. Uh, as a small business owner, who’s been going on that journey for some time. Now I cannot imagine how difficult that was for you. Congrats.

But I’d like to talk about what certifications like that mean to you.

So if you’re sourcing products at wholesale, are you looking for certain certifications? And what does that tell you about the products that are certified? I was just wondering how important certifications are to you as someone who is in retail.

[00:19:31] Kate: Yeah, definitely. If we are deciding between two companies, One is B Corp certified, and one is not we’ll pick the B Corp certified as the consumer or somebody purchasing. It just takes away that research that you might want to do before looking into a product, because you know that the company has been through a rigorous process to get certified, you know, that they are doing what they’re saying, they’re doing, they’re putting their money where their mouth is, or whatever that saying is And they’re yeah, they’re committed to, as like B Corp slogan, they’re committed to using business as a force of good.

So obviously companies need to be making money to be successful, but at least like my definition of success is so much more deeper than that because I th I think a lot about impact and like the impact that my company has. So, Yeah, for like certifications, like B Corp are so good because they are helping to spread awareness and this movement of using business to create change and be a force for good is catching on and just gaining in popularity, which is so important.

And yeah, I forget where I was going with that.

[00:20:36] Jennifer: One thing that I love to add to this conversation, or one thing that I love to ask. Whenever this comes up is how do you think that impact business is resonating with consumers? Do you think that consumer behavior is shifting at the same pace that business owners are starting to think about

[00:20:50] Kate: impact?

A couple of things. I think that the business owners who are on top of it and aware of these trends and thinking this way, they are probably moving a bit quicker than the consumers, but I think the consumers are catching up. And already, like, I feel like in the last couple of years Consumers are getting smarter and more aware of the impacts that products have that businesses have and are starting to demand different and demand better and demand more transparency from the places that they shop at. So I think that businesses who aren’t thinking, and that’s not saying everybody has to be B Corp certified but people, businesses who aren’t. Being transparent and dark. Aren’t being forthright about what the impact that their businesses have. I think they will lose customers and they will lose some of their customer base because of that, for sure.

[00:21:50] Jennifer: So you started the shop with feedback from people on social media, giving you input into what to stock your shelves, which, which I love, but what was the moment that you realized that this could work or that people would actually be interested in supporting a business idea like this?

[00:22:05] Kate: When we announced the business on social media, it was such a scary thing because once you put it out there, you can’t take it back.

You can not do it, but you can’t. You can’t take it away. And like right away within the first couple of weeks, I was flooded with messages and emails. Emails and then messages from social media of people saying that they were so excited to shop this way. And they were so excited for The Tare Shop to open.

Cause they’d been trying to reduce their waste and it just hasn’t been possible or accessible to them. So right away that was like a pretty good, like, okay, we’re good. This is gonna work. And then you run all the numbers that you. I can guess and can make up educated guesses for your cashflow projections.

And almost right away, my numbers, the sales were way better than I ever expected them to be. More people were excited to be shopping this way. A lot of people in the direct community shopped because it was just closer than, than driving or walking to, to the bigger stores farther away. So that was another like, okay, like we’ve got this, this is going to work.

And another thing that I wasn’t expecting at all, but pretty much from even before we opened. Every week we would get messages. When are you opening up a tear shop in this community, this city, this town this province. So all over the country, I’ve had requests for Terra shops. So that was another really cool thing that I didn’t expect, but so many people would be so into this idea and wanted a tear shop in their community.

[00:23:37] Jennifer: And so I was looking around within your social media, I’m looking at your community and this, this real community feel that you have built with your followers. And one of the things that I. Really makes your store special to the people that love you really is that you do a lot of other things about X in order to be accessible.

Can we talk about your accessibility initiatives within your shop? Cause I think that they’re, they’re really exciting and interesting to talk about

[00:24:07] Kate: Yeah. So that was the I think, yeah, we would never open up a tear shop in a building, like even just base level building that wasn’t accessible. Folks with physical disabilities or mobility aids already have such a hard time navigating.

Really, especially really old cities like health facts. So being aware, just reducing that one barrier and then in our store making sure that it’s accessible for folks all walks of lives, making sure that it’s an inclusive, inviting, welcoming non-judgment space. And we have accessibility policies on our website. Like ensuring that our social media is accessible. So anytime we post a video with speech or text we include captions any time that we post a photo, we have an image description and our hashtags use camel case, which just means that the first letter of each hashtag is re within the hashtag is capitalized. Making sure that we eat like, even as simple as like having kids toys in the space, so that it’s a bit easier for a parent with young kids to come and shop, they can plot their kids down in front of the toy bin or books the kids can play while the parents do their shop. And that’s been such a special thing us.

[00:25:23] Jennifer: I love the scent free thing too. Cause I’m a scent. We’re a scent free family.

[00:25:27] Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Even like, there’s so many things that you, as somebody, without any barriers or accessibility needs that you might not even think about. So like all of the cleaning products that we use are scent free and we do sell scented products, but they’re all closed, so they don’t smell In the space.

And then like lights and sounds. We’re always happy to turn the music off or pause the music. Dim, the lights they’re all on dimmers if somebody needs to. So we don’t have like designated times, like I know Walmart might, or some other big stores might have designated times. But we’re happy to do that at all.

At any point of the day

[00:26:04] Jennifer: In your journey in specifically throughout the pandemic, have you encountered any other really big challenges?

[00:26:13] Kate: Not including COVID.

[00:26:15] Jennifer: I think there, I think COVID has just maybe amplified.

So our challenges as

[00:26:20] Kate: Yeah, definitely. Like even from the beginning, like I was 24 when I noticed the business, if my math is and memory are correct. And like I looked pretty young, so just even getting people to take me seriously and where the chair shop was such a new concept. There was no store in the province, like the chair shop Getting lenders to believe in what I was doing.

I had one lender who told me that my paraphrasing business plan was stupid. I would need plastic bags and disposable coffee cups to, to be successful. So, yeah, even just like getting people bought in on this idea has well, the community’s been very supportive getting some of the people in suits with the money to take me seriously.

But yeah, that COVID, yeah, it’s just amplified. Every challenge. And while we’ve been fortunate enough not to have any like labor issues and getting incredible folks on our team the labor shortages have affected some of our suppliers. So some of our suppliers locally, even, and who are able to do deliveries every day are now down to a couple of times a week managing like all the, yeah, the labor shortages, how they affect suppliers and leads, lead times being so unpredicted.

The w worst one was we placed an order, usually a weekly time, like four weeks, we still hadn’t heard. And it had all been paid for upfront. And then all of those little delays like that just really affect your cashflow. So it makes it harder to make that next purchase because your cashflow has been tied up for a while.

[00:27:54] Jennifer: And when we saw people hoarding toilet paper and, and, uh, when we saw people lie selling their groceries and wearing gloves every time they opened doors, I’m sure that that shift in like collective mindset really effected you and probably rattled you quite a bit. How did you feel when that happened?

Like what was going through your mind when COVID hit? And we were all, all of a sudden, so worried about things like sanitation, what was that?

[00:28:24] Kate: Oh, my gosh, it was so scary. I wish I kept like a journal or a diary even just to see how like, cause I feel like a trauma response is you don’t really remember. So I remember being terrified. But I don’t necessarily remember the feelings too deeply.

But yeah, it was so scary. I was in Toronto for a conference and got back like the Saturday night at like midnight before the world shut down. And just even. Yeah, asking staff to work. I wasn’t comfortable with staff working. They weren’t comfortable working, so laid everybody off. And I went back to working on the floor zero hours a week to working on the floor six days a week by myself.

Doing all the shopping for people. So people would come in and they’d stand in like one spot and I would do all the filling for them. Again, it was just all so unknown. And I remember wearing like gloves instead of a mask. Cause I thought that we just thought that was the safer thing. Didn’t realize how aerosol like transmittable by air.

It was and. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was really, really intense. And I would go grocery shopping. Typically, what did the grocery shopping for my household? Cause I was already out in the community and would come home and just like sod. It was so intense to be everybody also just got, we lost that, that community feel and that co like shared experiences.

Everybody was so tunnel vision and focused on themselves. Even like walking out on the street. Like nobody was saying hi to anybody else. Everybody was like looking down, looking away. So absorbed in like their own safety and their own wellbeing. There was one walk, my partner and I went on like April 20, 20, so peak, scary, scary times.

We were like, okay, we’re both like very low, very sad today. Let’s get out. Move our body get some fresh air and it just made it so much worse. Cause there was like police ticketing, people like walk cutting through the commons, which is a big field in Halifax. Like people are reading ticketed for being outside.

Everybody was like, so like wrapped up and, and, and yeah, not social and not friendly anymore. So that?

was a big mind shift and, and, and emotional mental thing to get over.

[00:30:50] Jennifer: Do you feel like a lot of customers of yours kind of rejected the idea of bulk or refill at that time?

[00:30:56] Kate: I think a lot of people did.

And. Like rightfully so it was a scary time. But it was pretty early on in the pandemic that there was a report issued by hundreds of, or over 125. I think it was like doctors and scientists and health professionals who said that using reusables was safe as long as they were clean, which for food health, safety, anyways, they should be clean.

So, and we like my waist to also definitely increase through dependent. But there was a lot of our regular customers. We probably lost for a bit there, but a lot who were so grateful to be able to like at least keep this part of normalcy and keep this way of reducing waste alive in their lives.

And also nice to like go somewhere where they felt very safe. A lot of the feedback that we got was this was like one of the only stores they felt safe going into. Cause it was just me and them. And I also definitely became like an emotional, like dumping ground for people who, some people come in and be like, I haven’t talked to another adult in like a week, like here’s my life.

Which was a lot, but, but nice to connect with customers as well.

[00:32:04] Jennifer: And now that COVID is kind of alleviating at least in terms of the way that we are all interacting with the world. Again, I know that. The zero waste living or low waste living took a huge hit through all of this. Like everybody, I was ordering my groceries. They were coming in plastic bags. It was eating my heart.

Every time, every time I had to wear a disposable mask, as opposed to a cloth mask, I throwing out it’s, it’s eating me inside. Are you seeing a shift now of people go. You know, extra in the direction of zero waste or being more mindful of waste after living through this like massive waste stream of the last two years.

Like, how is this shifting as someone who’s really on ground level

[00:32:46] Kate: here?

Yeah. I think people are even the people who might not have been very aware. Now aware, cause you can even see in the number of like garbage bags that you’re throwing out that waste all of our wastes have increased. So I think the people who were already trying are definitely committed to doing this and, and trying to live with less impact.

And I think I, yeah, I trying to stay optimistic, but I think. This has shifted things and we see have seen the impacts and know that we, that we need better for, for our world today than we have been doing.

[00:33:26] Jennifer: And when you’re speaking to your customers about taking steps or taking action in order to live a more sustainable life. What is your like top tip? What is the number one thing you tell people to do when they are coming to you as an expert and asking you what they can do to live more sustainably?

[00:33:45] Kate: The first tip, I always tell folks is to use up what you already have. So it’s way more wasteful to go to your pantry or your bathroom or your cleaning closet And throw out everything in there and replace it all. It’s a huge waste of resources. It’s a huge waste of money. So use up what you have and then as your bottle of cleaning, spray runs out refill that.

So we have. Like all purpose, cleaner concentrate. So refill things as you run out, instead of going and replacing it all and even like the plastic mop that you have is more sustainable than going out and buying like a, all bamboo one. So using what you already have is the most sustainable option.

And then the next thing I would say is be kind to yourself Yeah, this is all about like building habits and changing your mindset and that stuff doesn’t happen overnight. It takes time, it takes practice. And if you cave and buy a coffee in a disposable cup, like it’s not the end of the world remember to bring your mug next time or be being aware yeah, not beating yourself up if getting to a bulk shop isn’t accessible to you.

That’s okay. There’s other things that you can do to lessen your.

[00:34:57] Jennifer: And what about a small business owner? What is something that they can do to lessen their impact? Like what would you suggest to someone like me or someone who owns a business in your

[00:35:07] Kate: That’s a great one. I think being really. Like doing your research.

The number of business owners that have asked me about the compostable coffee cups, they’re not actually compostable in the majority of municipalities. They go to the landfill and just something compostable in the landfill isn’t necessarily better than something. Not like a garbage piece of garbage in the landfill.

So in the amount of business owners I’ve had, who asked me and I’m like, I hate to tell it to you. That’s not compostable. And they’ve spent more money per cup or whatever the product is on this like green sustainable compostable, PLA, uh, cup than they normally would have. So they’ve wasted a lot of money.

So yeah. Do your research. It takes a little bit of time, but at least in HRM, there’s waste educators who are always really be happy to chat And answer questions. So tap into the resources in your community and do your research before buying like a green product.

[00:36:06] Jennifer: And I think B Corp was a really big eye-opener for me, at least in terms. That kind of stuff. Of course, like really evaluating our business, which we already thought we were doing great. You know, we already had been so mindful of all these decisions, but going through the B Corp process has really opened our eyes to making those small changes.

But one thing as an outsider, And at first and B Corp, when I wasn’t involved at all. And I had never really heard about it before. I did know that sustainability was a big part of B Corp and I knew it was about protecting the earth. But what I did not know was that B Corp has such a community focus. And I was wondering since you’ve gone through B Corp and gone through the certification, how have you chose to.

What’s the word, how can we say this? How are you benefiting your community? I’m wondering what your community action oriented events are.

[00:37:09] Kate: Yeah.

[00:37:09] Jennifer: Are you serving your community?

[00:37:11] Kate: yeah, I love that. Yeah. One thing I think a lot of people don’t realize is that B Corp, isn’t just like in a focus on environmental. It’s also all about social And then community impact as well.

So I was inspired by 1% for the planet. But instead of doing 1%. Two different environmental organization. I wanted the, to give to directly to the community, so different organizations in the community, but also we’ve given to like go fund me campaigns and things like that. So very like direct community oriented organizations.

So one each quarter we donate 1% of our sales to a different community organization. And those are nominated by the community, voted on with the staff. And so that’s like one piece, we run events, we host other makers and creators for popups. We don’t charge people for that. It’s just a way to like bring people into the space.

And especially after COVID regained some of that community feel to the space. And yeah, like offering up our space, offering up our platform to community members, being, sharing things, amplifying voices is really important.

[00:38:17] Jennifer: And what about our children or the children in your community, the adults of the future. How do you think that the work that you’ve done is impacting them? Like, what do you think about the future of Halifax or the future of all of us as we explore zero.

[00:38:34] Kate: I think kids are so smart. And yeah, educating the kids is a huge piece of this. I think that’s how, like the recycling initiatives started. They went into schools and educated all of the kids and the kids went home and taught the parents how to, how to recycle.

So yeah, making sure that we are educating the kids and, and not necessarily like not sugar coating things. But doing it in a way that inspires them to create change or to change up habits or to encourage their parents to change up habits or guardians instead of like scaring them. Cause I definitely got scared in university.

And whereas I think if I had been aspired, it would have been like, I would have emotionally felt different for sure. So educating kids in a way that inspires them. So I love going into schools and giving talks and, and talking to youth groups, I’ve done a ton of those, especially pre COVID.

[00:39:30] Jennifer: I’m wondering if you’ve heard. I’ve seen a couple memes lately and I haven’t explored it at all, but, like grocery shopping in the 1950s and how different it was for now. Have you seen these memes?

[00:39:42] Kate: I don’t. I think I’ve seen like one, but one thing that I didn’t expect when we open, I kind of expected like young woman to be our primary target market. But what I didn’t expect was like 60 plus year olds to come in and being like, this is how we used to shop. This is amazing that we can shop this way again. So, yeah, we like plastic is a new invention. It hasn’t been around forever. And all shopping used to be packaged or plastic free.

I think the more locations that we have, the more impact that we can have, and the more common this becomes this way of shopping way of thinking just becomes more like mainstream and, and easier for folks.

[00:40:22] Jennifer: And do you think we’re going to get there?

[00:40:24] Kate: Yes, I do.

[00:40:26] Jennifer: If you want to learn more about Kate, package- free living and how to shop her carefully curated collection of low waste goods. Visit thetareshop.com. Looking to learn more about zero waste and the steps you can take to reduce plastic in your life. There are a lot of tips and resources on the Tare Shop’s blog. If you want to follow along with Kate on her mission to make package free living accessible. You can do so on Instagram @thetareshop

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher from Pillars of Light came together in the darkest part of the pandemic, with the goal to spread love and light throughout the world. In this episode, we learn how the two explored the one-for-one model and other ways to give back, before settling on a partnership with GivePower. We discover why they chose luxury candles and why they went from pouring their own to partnering with a manufacturer in Montreal. We bring to light the unique challenges of launching a product in COVID times, learn what it means to be purpose- first. Hear what they learned about candle safety and funding for female-founded companies, and why after committing to bringing clean drinking water to 1 Million People, they feel so hopeful for the future. 

If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon and how they’re Giving love through light—with a 1-for-1 approach visit www.pillarsoflight.co. Looking for that perfect gift? Their giveback model means that your purchase gives access to 5 years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on Instagram @pillars_of_light.co

Links from this episode

• Pillars of Light Co.

• GivePower

Episode Transcript

 

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: It’s 2021 in the middle of Canadian winter and in the middle of the pandemic when friends, family, and community members were isolated and really struggling. Two friends decided to come together to spread a little light and the two who live more than two hours apart, connected online and over the phone to chat about creating a business. With the idea to create a product rooted in people and purpose that would bring a sense of hope to those around them. But they also wanted to focus on social impact and giving back. Spreading light all over the world as a symbol of life-giving hope.

Janey Snelgrove and Shannon Fisher met in the health and wellness space. And as former co-workers, they had always dreamed of finding a way to collaborate together. Sharing similar values, both wanted to create meaningful impact in some way. And leaning on Janey’s experience nursing in Africa, and their shared desire to support women and families, Pillars of Light was born.

And the truth is that even now more than 3.5 billion people around the world live without access to reliable electricity. Every 90 seconds, a child dies of waterborne illness and disease. And organizations like GivePower supply, clean, and safe water to those in developing countries. And it was the perfect choice for the give back model for Pillars of Light.

I asked Janey and Shannon to describe Pillars of Light in one sentence. They call it a luxury candle company with a lasting purpose where every purchase of their candles gives five years of access to clean drinking water to someone in need in a water scarce region around the world

[00:04:07] Janey Snelgrove: I’m Janey Snelgrove and I’m a founder of Pillars of Light co.

We’re both moms, we’re both wives. We both are entrepreneurs. We’ve been in entrepreneurship for over 20 years, each of us. And we’ve always been about helping people. And so when Shannon and I had been, over the years, getting to know each other and working we’ve often said, oh, we should do something right. We should do something outside of this. And it wasn’t until a conversation during the pandemic, when we’re both in lockdown that we thought maybe there’s something we can do because there’s a lot of fear. There’s a lot of uncertainty. There’s just a lot of angst in the world and we were feeling it and, we do a lot of personal development and, we’ve worked through a lot of things, a lot of mindset and we were feeling it and we were like, you know what, if we’re feeling it, I’m sure other people are feeling it. And what can we do to make a difference? Because right now we feel like we can’t do a lot, but what can we do?

[00:05:02] Shannon Fisher: I’m Shannon Fisher, the other half of Pillars of Light.  We had this conversation like a girlfriend conversation, does, we go from one thing to the next, to the next. And we were starting to set some goals and dreams and adjust what our future could look like moving out of this. We felt like we just had an opportunity to, to lean in and to ask some bigger questions. What if we could actually start something that made a significant change in the world? And I ought to be honest, I think it was the first time for me in, in a while. That I felt hope again. I had been quite sick prior, uh, for a couple of years. And it was the first time for me that I was just like, I felt, there was some light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And so we were excited to jump in and learn more but what we could do with.

[00:05:48] Jennifer Chua: Now it’s immediately evident when you look at your website or your social media, that creating an impact and environmental responsibility and just being a purpose-based business is so important to you. But what led you to see the world this way? Is there an event that stands out in your mind?

[00:06:05] Janey Snelgrove: I grew up on a farm and my parents brought in students to work for a couple months from all over the world. And so we had someone from Sri Lanka from south America. Oh gosh, just different places. And some other Canadians from other provinces would come to, and it started my quest as a child to think, oh, not everyone lives like we do in Ontario. Not everyone eats the same food. Not everyone has the same background, the same experience. And so it really started this quest for me of, oh, what’s it like in other parts of the world. Growing up. I think I was just really also taught that, when we have, we can share, there’s always enough to share. And so, I was fortunate to be able to go to Guyana when I graduated as a nurse and, volunteer for a month. And my husband, also was there and we experienced firsthand, living in another culture and we experience what it was like to live without electricity. And there was times when, like we had electricity, but there was times when the power would go out in the hospital or in the place where we stayed. And it really opened my eyes to how frustrating that is. You’re in the middle of a shower and the lights go out and it’s at night and you’re like, how do I get how to get around?

And you don’t have candles set up and you’re not prepared. And I realized this is a, this is something that like, people make a lot of people around the world, almost a billion people around the world deal with every day. And for me, it was just so eye-opening and so. As I’ve grown in entrepreneurship, one thing that I’ve always thought of is what can we do to help other people, like, it’s great to have products that can help people here in north America.

And when Shannon and I were creating our candles, we thought, first we have to love our customers and really let them know that what we’re putting into their home is luxury. It’s beautiful. They’re going to love to look at it, but then what’s in, it is actually supporting them, with a wellness based essential oils and healthy, a healthy product.

But then we also thought, okay, what can we do beyond that? And when we started to dig in and think, okay, this is an opportunity to do a one for one model. You know what what’s happening around the world with electricity. And when we discovered there is so many people living every night in darkness, we knew there was something we can do. And so we evolved from thinking about, okay, if we were to, how to candle company, what could we give as part of our one for one, the story evolved into water.

[00:08:35] Shannon Fisher: We realized really quick that the world needed more love and light in the world. Janey had a contact with friends that lived in Malawi and, it was that email back that I think that for me, just really affirmed that we had an opportunity. We had an in a, in a responsibility. I’ve never had a chance to travel to a third world country in the sense that same way as Janey has, but I I’ve often wanted to really impact those that are, extremely less fortunate. And, one of the things that we realized is that we necessarily didn’t also want to take our first world view of what we think people need. We really wanted to hear and learn what is actually required. Like we could go in with our own moody system, but what is actually needed. And we started just asking some questions.

And when we got this response back from this beautiful gentleman that lived in Malawi, there was just such a hook, right. There was like, okay, I just felt so morally obligated. So, from one conversation leads to the next we knew that, we could bring a product to market and, we went everywhere. We were like, okay, do we bring candles into people’s homes? And that could provide light, this one for one model. And then we, of course we quickly realized that’s probably not the safest measure to bring a candle into someone’s hut because we don’t want to ever cause a fire. So we were like, okay, let’s look at solar based products and, just getting off the ground and being startup. We just started to say, okay, what can we do next? What’s that next step? A friend that we had met actually started to help us develop our brand. And he just really believed in what we were doing, he introduced us to a company called gift power, the gift power foundation, I should say. And when we met gift power, we were like, oh my goodness, like they’re doing everything that we believe in and they’re on the ground. And every single dollar, like it was literally this moment, we were like, okay, they are, they’re doing it right. The money goes right to the ground. They already had a partnership covering all of their administrative costs. And, for them, they realize the same thing that we did that this, electrical poverty was so significant that they started lighting up schools. They started bringing light in through solar based energy, but then what they found next was even more, a significant problem was the lack of access to clean drinking water. Every two minutes a child dies of waterborne disease, as mothers, we were like, it’s a no brainer. Okay, how do we partner? And what do we do next?

[00:11:05] Jennifer Chua: People that are such passionate change makers, like the two of you, I’m sure that this whole idea of using something to create change didn’t just start when you were adults, even. I’m wondering if either one of you have moments in your childhood that you’re remembering that you look back on now and say, yo yes I was always primed to be a change.

[00:11:24] Shannon Fisher: I always wanted to make a really big, big impact in the world. I didn’t necessarily really know how that was going to be. I’m always like laugh and say in a small town girl living in a lonely world, but it was, I always just felt that I was called to do big work. I think we can do community-based work, which is fantastic locally. But there’s just been this calling in my heart forever, as long as I can remember to do something more significant. It just felt right when, sharing this opportunity with friends, some of my closest friends were like, this makes complete sense. This is exactly what you’ve always talked about. This is what you’ve always dreamt about and just really excited that you’re going for it.

[00:12:05] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me, it was more of the perspective of, from that young age, seeing that there are people around this world that have less than I do. And just realizing that we all have a place and as a woman, Knowing that there’s more than one way to make change and change can sometimes be just being the kind person on the school bus to the stranger, to the new kid.

Right. And I was often that kid that would like, welcome the new kid because I didn’t want them to feel like they were different than us. And so, I think as, as women, Shannon and I, as we’ve gotten to know each other, I think both of us, just from the bottom of our heart, we, we believe in people.

We just believe that each and every one of us have something inside of us and that we’re here for a purpose and a reason. And when I started to realize that, women just disproportionately are affected by lack of water, I thought, gosh, we’ve had this conversation. What would it be like to be a mom. Having to pull water every day for our kids. Like the amount of time that would require how that would limit your ability to just be with your kids, to make food, to teach even, to get a job.

Each and every one of us have an ability to do something. And I don’t think it has to be anything huge or spectacular. It’s just something. And so when Shannon and I set out for our Pillars of Light, obviously we wanted to create something amazing for people who received the candle. But we also wanted to inspire people to know that when you buy this, you are doing something, you are helping someone in this farther place. Probably another mom, just like you or another student received water that they currently aren’t receiving. And so. to create something where people could join us in community because really community is what drives any kind of change. It’s not one person, it’s a community.

And so Pillars of Light is really an opportunity for people to come together and why, whether they purchase the candle for themselves, or they purchase it for somebody else that might be going through a challenging time. We can know that together, we really are making a difference. And that’s why, one of the right away, we were like, together, we are killers of light because it’s not just Shannon and I it’s going to take a whole village.

[00:14:26] Jennifer Chua: What was that conversation like when you decided that you want to work together? You’ve decided that maybe you have an idea for how you can create impact. How did that conversation go between the two of you?

[00:14:35] Shannon Fisher: Janey and just chatted for years and I often seek her as a confidant and just a really great friend. And I think because of the personal development work we’ve done throughout the years, we were really able to quickly realize that we both had different strengths in different buckets. There was immediate trust there right away, uh, that, we’ve gone through hard times, uh, together we’ve had to do hard work together.

We’ve had to, really rally at times and, in any partnership it’s, it’s not always, roses and there’s going to be hard conversations. We’re both faith-based women. And we just said, Hey, if it’s going to be it’s up to it’s up to him. And let’s just kind of continue to lean in. It’s been the most beautiful work that I’ve done in my career up to this point. So I think one conversation just has led to the next, to be honest.

[00:15:28] Janey Snelgrove: Yeah, we’re dreamers. Right. But we’re also doers. And so, we, when in our initial conversations it was like, okay, well, if we’re going to do this because a, we have other businesses, we have fizzy families, this better be something good. Like we’re not just in it just to touch the waters, we’re in it to like dive in and see that ripple. And so we knew that our partnership was going to be really important. I sometimes we have these doubts that we’re like, what are we doing? How is this going to work? Like, who are we? We’ve never been in the candle industry before. We’ve never been in manufacturing. These are all big jumps. They’re not just little baby steps. It’s like a giant leap. But we’ve always come back to, we’re in this together, we’re problem solvers.

And most importantly, it’s going to take a team. And so we’ve been able to put amazing people around us to help us to see our mission. And we keep grounded in, what, if we hit our goal of impacting a million people, fantastic. But if we only help one person have water for five years, freaking fantastic.

When we have those days of like, what are we doing? We boil it down to, okay, what’s the big picture. And the big picture is helping people. And so, one day at a time, that’s all we can do one day at a time.

[00:16:40] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to look into the one for one model, what other avenues for giving back were you exploring?

[00:16:46] Shannon Fisher: When we first started we were just looking at some different models and, Janey had got a great pair of Bomba socks for Christmas. And so she was explaining this to me and, I’ve always been very intrigued in the one for one model and just even socially responsible businesses. and so again, like we, when we decided to do this, it was like, okay, we’re just not going to be a typical candle company. So we wanted to redefine this industry. We also wanted to redefine, women partnership in business. And so we had a couple of key goals. And so we looked at the one for one, you need to be honest.

At first we were like, let’s, let’s just see what’s available. And we thought, well, maybe we would create that one for one. And we would be able to do both sides. And when we were just really focused initially on our own product innovation, like what were we going to actually, what we’re going to give to our customers in order to create the one for one when we met with gift powder, we looked at a few other organizations.

But that was actually first conversation we actually had with the company. And it just felt right. It just checked all the boxes. So you didn’t really have to go into any further discovery. At this point, of course, knowing that there we’ll probably have other partnerships along the way, uh, this just kind of met everything that we were looking for at the moment.

[00:17:54] Janey Snelgrove: We wanted it simple. Because we know that people’s attention is so short and there’s so many different, great products out there, but we wanted it to be able to say, Hey, if you take the time to buy this one candle for yourself for someone else, here’s what it equals. Looking at, Bombus looking at, Tom’s looking at some of the other companies out there that have the one for one, we really tried to study. What, why have they done well? And it’s because it’s simple. You by one candle, you give five years of drinking water, 1,825 days of clean drinking water with this one luxury candle.

So for us, we thought let’s follow what has worked with some other companies and see if we can just build on upon it and grow from there. And like Shannon said, give power’s our first partnership, but as we grow, we’re open to looking at other ways that we can have impact, but we know the power of solar energy and we know the power of water.

When we were chatting about what was going on in the world and distress, people were under in the fear, the uncertainty, the loneliness the loss, like so many people have lost jobs. They’ve lost family members. They’ve lost opportunities to have a wedding and to celebrate they’ve lost holidays for the last two years. There’s been so much change and uncertainty that we really started look at okay. Fear is to darkness what love is to light. And so when we decided to start this candle company, we thought there’s so many parallels that if people could really dig in, that these candles are actually reminders, that light is greater than the darkness that love casts out all fear. The impact that we wanted to have obviously was globally with our gift back. But locally, when someone purchased their candle, we want them to just see the power and the reminder that sometimes we all need a reminder of the love and the light inside of us, that we can make a difference. We want it to have that global impact, but first we want it to have that local impact with our customer who was able to really just get this beautiful candle, this beautiful curated scent and be reminded of the power of love and the power of light that they have within them.

[00:20:12] Jennifer Chua: When we spoke earlier, we spoke about mental health being something that is important to both of you as well. And I was wondering how Pillars of Light either affects mental health now, or if you have any plans going forward to do impact in that area. I was just wondering about the whole mental health piece of this brand?

[00:20:33] Shannon Fisher: Great question, Jennifer, Janey and I were actually chatting and this has come up quite a few times for us is. I think prior to the pandemic, people were struggling. We live really busy lives. People sometimes haven’t been managing their life as much as they, I think they would like to and then the pandemic hit. And what we do know is, the next kind of pandemic, so to speak is mental health. And I do a lot of work in this area. And I’ve seen a lot of people continue to struggle. And it’s one of those things do we see ourselves taking a, uh, an opportunity here potentially. But what we do know is we’ve had some just extraordinary feedback that people are lighting this candle, and it’s helping them. It’s helping them with their mental clarity. It’s helping them recognize that even when I in, maybe, uh, having a rough day or a dark day, I can look at that candle and it’s reminding me of that inner light.

And that was really important to Jamie and I, because we can often get caught up in the weeds and we can often get caught up in our own darkness and sometimes just letting that candle and just watching it. Is, is that opportunity to be reminded that the light that’s within us and the other part is I don’t have to extinguish my light in order to light up Janey. Like I get to keep my light on while I also could like her candle. And that was another big part of our movement is to remind people that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. And in the simplest form, if we can make life really complicated, as we all know, but if we lean into love and we lean into light there’s going to be brighter days ahead. And we really wanted to help people just to be reminded of that and that there’s people there in the world that to care for them. And again, through community that things, things can be okay.

[00:22:32] Jennifer Chua: And when you began to actually look at making candles and manufacturing candles, did you find anything surprising?

[00:22:40] Janey Snelgrove: It’s interesting when we were first talking about it was right in the middle of the pandemic, the one of the lockdowns, and we were like, oh, let’s create a new hobby candles. And we soon realized that candle making is an art and a science. And we spent hours like hours. Our kids were involved. Our husbands were involved. Our husbands were so happy when we decided that we are not makers. Our gift is not making. Our gift is sharing stories and, and opening and helping businesses grow. Oh boy, our friends, they sniffed some smelly candles and we had a lot of funny laughs, hats off to the makers out there who have really understood the science and the art of it. And, and one thing that was important to us was using quality ingredients and it’s expensive. Using quality ingredients. But you can see the difference in the quality of the ingredients, how it affects the burn, the smell, like just the whole thing.

So we found a Canadian manufacturing partner that has been building candles for over 25 years. They are very, value-based very, very socially responsible. And as soon as we met them, went to their facility, got to meet the owner of the family. We knew here was another partner that was in alignment with us and we could trust them. We knew what they were creating and we’re really excited that they have come on board with us because we’ve been able to create two beautiful scents and more to come.

[00:24:18] Shannon Fisher: I just giggle from the first part. Then we started this and I still remember Janey and I sitting down at the table going okay, like, this is all well and good, but how are we, going back to the vision. It’s going to take so much longer for us to create this impact if we’re trying to pour candles and do all these other pieces. And so we knew that if we wanted to really make the impact, like Janey mentioned is that we had to find the right partner. To partner with people who have experience and so much experience, just made, made that transition a no brainer for us.

[00:24:52] Jennifer Chua: Have you discovered any costs associated with creating something like a candle that you might just pick up in any store, like in terms of environmental impact or impact on your health? Is there anything about candles that we need to be mindful of?

[00:25:04] Shannon Fisher: We went through like a really steep learning curve. And over the last couple of years, of course heard soy candles, soy-based candles were definitely the better way to go. I’ve been a candle connoisseur for many years. It’s probably my most favorite gift to give is to give a candle. And when we started to do some research into the wax. I was kind of shocked because yes, you can see a candle in our community for a couple of bucks to we found some candles that were priced, small atriums candle price at $125.

And we’re like, whoa, what is the difference here? And what we started to see things like petroleum based products even some of the blends, you don’t necessarily know if that’s a petroleum blend or not. And unfortunately petroleum-based candles are actually quite toxic to our health. So that was the one thing was making sure we found wax that was very safe for our customers. Both being in wellness is really, really important. The second thing was then finding a scent and Janey and I we scratched our heads on this one for, I felt like weeks, trying to figure it out and really understand what is that scent that people love.

And then what is the scent that also gives people headaches? I’ve got great girlfriends that were like, oh, I struggled buying candles because they burned them for a few minutes and I ended up with a wicked headache and I blow it out. And what we started to see again is that there can be often more phthalate in some of those products. They’re more synthetic. And what we realize is, again, is finding natural based aromas that were phthalate free, essential oil base. Initially we’re like we only want essential oils. But we quickly realized that that is all well and good, but not always easy in a candle because the fact that they need some other stabilizers, but we can use other and natural aromas and then the products that were phthalate free.

That was the second pillar. And then the third pillar, if you can believe it or not, the little wick that goes in those candles, often sometimes have lead in the, can you believe it lead in wicks. And so again, things we don’t want burning things I definitely do not want around my kids or, we have a, literally a funny farm Jeanie has a beautiful dog as well. And so we wanted to make sure, again, really high quality 100% soy base. That was what we were learning was probably going to be the best for our burn time, making sure that scent was sophisticated and strictly healthy and that we had lead free wicks. We feel confident, making sure people buy our product that they’re, we’re not putting their health in jeopardy.

[00:27:43] Jennifer Chua: As someone in the consumer product space. And obviously through this podcast, in this project and just meeting with impact business owners, I’ve learned a lot about lead and phthalates and how they are in an astonishing amount of products that we have in levels that are really not safe. I’m just wondering if you’ve noticed in this period of time, if consumers are valuing that information yet, or if it’s resonated with. What do you think is going on in terms of consumer product behavior?

[00:28:17] Janey Snelgrove: I think it’s starting. I think it’s just starting. So it was interesting in our initial research and just talking to different friends and people, we would talk about is soy base important to you? And they’re like, no. And I’m like, oh, tell me more about that. And , they didn’t even know. They didn’t know there was a difference. They didn’t know what a candle was made of and why soy was better. So I think that it’s growing, the movement is growing for having natural eco-friendly products. But I still think we’ve got a way to go. So that’s partly why, our job is also to educate.

[00:28:54] Jennifer Chua: You’ve touched on that you were going to your friends and you were asking them questions. You were getting your husbands involved. You were really talking to other people in the wellness community, but when was the moment that you really realized that this could work or that people would be interested in the idea of, of your business?

[00:29:09] Janey Snelgrove: We did a lot of research and we were like, okay, what will people buy candles? Like is candles even a thing. And when we started to look at the research 75% of women over 25 is really the target because they’re the ones that buy candles. And then we looked at the buying behaviors of that. And I can’t remember the stat off the top of my head, but a high percentage of people are now looking to see, is this company socially responsible what are their values? And they will choose to purchase from a company that has values and alignment. Just alone on the research, we knew that, okay, people’s buying behaviors are supporting this type of business

[00:29:49] Shannon Fisher: People even over the last little bit are looking for companies that what Janey mentioned, we kind of said that we were purpose and then people and then profit. So it wasn’t going to be the other way around. We had to have our purpose had, have our big, why we were doing this. We know it’s going to take incredible people both impacting people and of course, people to purchase. And, and then after that, if we kept those two things, as our priority profits will happen. And I would say, there’s been moments when we were like, is this going to work? And we went into a pre-launch and we launched our presale because we dealing with some supply chain things and all the stuff in the pandemic, they were like, okay, you never want a week crazy for starting a business in the middle of a pandemic where, there’s going to be, get things shipped.

And then we’re like, okay, let’s go into presale. And we ran an event and then we had people on there that registered. It will always be a moment kind of marked in my memory of when people started to order. And I was like, okay, we’ve got proof of concept. People want this. And so now it’s just up to us to increase that discoverability and just let people know that we’re here.

[00:31:00] Jennifer Chua: I wonder how that impacted some of the decisions that you’ve made, or if you have any learnings from that really unique experience of starting a business in the last two years?

[00:31:10] Janey Snelgrove: I think entrepreneurs sometimes have a dream and then they figure it out after. Right. And we just know as entrepreneurs, problem solving is right up there on your to-do list. Like curve balls come at, you left right and center. So I think part of it was we went into this with an attitude. Okay, this is a new gig for us. This is something new and we know we’re going to need to grow, and we know we’re going to need to have advisors. And we also are going to probably expect some challenges that being said, building in a pandemic was way more challenging than I even anticipated, partly because we’ve also never been in the manufacturing industry ourselves in terms of understanding supply chain delivery, demand costs.

And so firsthand, we got to see how, quoted on one thing and then a couple of weeks later. Oh no, no, no. We got, we’ve got to go up because of X, Y, and Z factor. And so, That was one thing. And then, delays, we had we’ve created a custom luxury box and it’s still not in our hands.

And we thought it was going to be ready for our launch in November. And so we had to pivot to find another box to just, do something as quickly as possible while still holding to our brand commitment of luxury. And so we had some, late night calls some times of like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do?

Are we going to make it, and so thankfully some advisers around us to just, calm us down a little bit, take us off the ledge and to remember that, okay, there’s always a solution. We just have to dig in to try and find it. So I have much more appreciation for product based company.

And for the industry as a whole, just really trying to deliver on their promises. And when you create, when you communicate to your customer, you want to stand behind that, but sometimes things out of your control come into play, and then you have to go back and say, actually, now we have to try to do this.

And so just really hoping to ask for grace, from people and also to extend grace to people we’re working with, who have had their timelines changed. And so, it has been a huge, it has been a huge learning for us. That’s for sure. But it’s been good. It’s been.

[00:33:41] Shannon Fisher: We didn’t really know anything different. We haven’t brought another product like this to market before. And so yes, we, I think have been faced with all our other challenges first year speaking to other advisors and, people we know in business that just kind of, they’re like good on you, girls for, doing this because you probably could have been maybe easier times for sure.

But at the same point, what we both know is is that we can do hard things and, as long as you’re willing to kind of take a deep breath and, calm your mind for a moment, look at some other solutions around us. We’re like, okay, we can still hold true to what we wanted. who we are. And we can still provide this great quality product. And so it has been such a, an exercise, like true exercise of, leaning in having great faith and honestly trusting the process. Like there’s we can talk about that, but when you’re actually living it, it’s totally different.

[00:34:37] Jennifer Chua: Are there any other unique challenges to operating a purpose first business that we don’t usually think about? Are people going into business or not thinking about.

[00:34:47] Janey Snelgrove: I think so. And we’re learning as we go through, right? This is all new for us, when you price your product, you have to read like every other entrepreneur understands their revenue and their profit. But for us, it’s like, okay, we have made a commitment with the amount that we are going to give, it’s also the purpose behind why we’re doing what we’re doing. And so we want to make sure that we can follow through and really have an impact. And so there is a balance of figuring out, financially. Making sure that your company is profitable so that you can have as much impact as you want to have.

We have to find a way to be profitable so that we can give. And that has been, I think, a learning curve as well, but also it’s our commitment. Like, that’s why we’re doing this. It’s not something that every entrepreneur has to deal with because we’re making our commitment upfront and other companies will often say, oh, sure, I’ll give out of my.

Right. And once they know they profits, then they give, and we’re like, oh, we’re committing to this. Whether we sell a candle or not, if we just sell one candle, this is what we’re doing. But there’s obviously costs. And so, I think that is the difference is that we’re making our commitment upfront where a lot of other companies make their commitment after they’ve sold. And that definitely makes it a little more challenging, but it also shows where our commitment is.

Shannon and I are very much believers in the ability of women when they put their minds to something. But I think one of the challenges that we have come firsthand to is financing for women startup businesses. And how is that easy? Thankfully we’ve been able to, start this up with our own equity. And when I went in, I had this assumption, oh yeah. The bank’s going to give us some money. I ask it to be easy. Oh yeah, we’ll get it. And wow. They don’t want to help you until you have two years of proof that it’s working. I guess what I’m trying to say is I want to encourage the women who are thinking of starting something that there’s always a way, but to expect there are challenges as a woman receiving financing.

[00:37:07] Shannon Fisher: There was this moment along our road where we were like, okay, like we’ve been in business. We have other businesses. We are established women in business. This should be easy. Right. And when we went down that road and started knocking on doors, it was a wake-up call for us to be like, whoa, whoa, what? No? Like what do you mean? And we had some beautiful feedback from people like, wow, this is like the most extensive business plan we’ve seen. And we’re like, oh, okay. Like giving us a pat on the back. And so we had done our due diligence. We had done the work and I think there’s a lot of times women go into business, we are responsible, we do our work. We dig in, we find out, especially if this is not something that you want to just kick the can at. Right. We wanted to go big on this project and it was frustrating. I remember having that moment going, okay, like, how is this going to happen? And we just, we just figured it out. And I think to that point is you just have to continue to lean in, start asking bigger questions. And then just allowing one door to open to the next and, thank heavens we’ve been able to strap this. I think here in Canada, I had a belief that this would be easy for women, but we started looking through different grants, janey and I are both over 40. Even that annoyed me, I was like, why is it only for women under 40 can get money? We’ve just saw lots of holes that are still are still within the business sector when it comes to funding that Just need to be closed. And I think to Janey’s point that if we can start to have more of these conversations, there are incredible people in the world that I think if they know how they can also solve a problem, we can really help more businesses come into marketplace of people who want to do really, really big and great. They just need some great people around them to help them see that vision to, to the end. When we were starting through the middle of the pandemic, so many people have had to cut back, and not having the same funding, not having the same opportunity to network . And so now, just even reflecting upon that, we put ourselves in a position where we just haven’t been able to meet up with as many people as we’d like to. But there’s always great opportunities as we continue to move forward.

[00:39:19] Jennifer Chua: And what about the children that you are impacting through your work and giving clean water to in Africa? How about them? Are you hopeful for their future?

[00:39:31] Shannon Fisher: Oh, my goodness. Beyond, beyond hopeful. Janey and I had these moments where we just sit and think about them and we can’t wait for the day that we can actually get over there and do a project. But we just know, even as mothers, like, if you can give your child something with like clean water, it’s such a necessity, just what that gives to someone to, to know that that child could have a brighter life. It just, it just means a lot, like it’s it’s work that I don’t know. I’m gonna get too emotional.

[00:40:11] Janey Snelgrove: I think for me too, it is. And we talked about this as being moms. I don’t even have any idea what it’s like being a mom where you have to go get water and thinking, oh gosh, what if it’s dirty? Right. Or seeing your child becomes sick. And so I think Shannon and I think about the comfort a mother would have knowing that, okay, this child has access to clean water for five years.

Right? Like, think about that, what that would do to take that level of stress off of you. In those hard days that we have, we have to remember, we’re not selling candles. We are helping people. And that’s what we have to keep our eye on. And so, I mean, we, it’s so funny as moms and as women, we have some good doozy cries it’s because we realize that what we have the opportunity to do can really make a difference.

And as an entrepreneur, when this becomes your baby You just want to make sure it’s a baby that you’re going to spend a lot of time on it is going to have an impact in a way that nothing else can. It’s just remembering. It’s just like, we’re asking our customers to remember the power of love and light within them. We also have to be reminded of, of, the power that, that we can have to help change someone’s life that we may never even get to meet. We probably will never get to meet, but just knowing that there is an opportunity to do something at the end of the day, when you’ve worked all day, it feels really good.

[00:41:47] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Janey, Shannon, and how they’re giving love through light with a one for one approach, visit Pillars of Light.co. Looking for that perfect gift. Their give back model means that your purchase gives access to five years of clean drinking water to someone in need around the world. You can follow along with Janey and Shannon on their mission to spread light on instagram@pillars_of_light.co.

Alicia Lumsden from Queen’s Shop Fine Hairdressing created a salon where sustainability and community could co-exist. In this episode, we learn what sustainable means in the hairdressing world, and how Alicia deals with the salon’s waste from hair clippings to water and packaging – and how her battle with environmental sensitivities influenced these decisions. We discover how she’s using the salon to help alleviate food insecurity in her neighbourhood, what she’s doing about gratuities and wages, and why Queen’s Shop is a model for what is possible. A salon with respect for the community and the environment.

If you want to learn more about Alicia and her sustainable and inclusive beauty salon visit Queen’sShopHair.com. In Toronto? Visit Queen’s Shop to enjoy an uplifting salon experience. No matter your age, gender, race, or orientation. You can follow along with Alicia on her mission to promote sustainability within the beauty space. At Instagram @queensshophair

Links from this episode

• www.queensshophair.com
• The Stop
• Trees For Life
• Coupe Bizarre Closing On Queen Street via BlogTo
• Davines
• Green Circle Salons
• Genuine Tea
• Propeller Coffee
• Axiology
• Loopjuice

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:17] Jennifer Chua: Alicia Lumsden founded Queen’s Shop Fine Hairdressing. A boutique hair salon in Toronto’s Bloordale neighborhood in the city’s west end. She opened Queen’s Shop with sustainability, beauty and community in mind. Words displayed on the shop’s front window. Providing some insight into Alicia’s mission. And for the last seven years, Queen’s Shop has been doing its part. Alicia has created a more sustainable salon by focusing on eco-conscious products and practices. And caring for the environment and the health of her community. 1% of their sales go to The Stop and Trees For Life. Projects which provide healthy food, foster social connections, build food skills, promote civic engagement, and build the tree canopy in and around the community. and for Alicia, how to communicate the Queen’s Shop’s impact. Has been on her mind.

[00:03:10] Alicia Lumsden:  I’ve just been really trying to take a step back and re-look at things. For me, it’s always been important to not follow what the average person is doing. Whether it’s my physical identity or just what I do on a day to day. I’ve actually been thinking this week about sustainability or caring about our people and our planet. How do we then change our message? That that is just the standard and then evolve into a more unique brand?

[00:03:47] Jennifer Chua: And it’s a message worth sharing. According to Green Circle Salons, 63,000 pounds of hair gets thrown away each day, producing greenhouse gases, as it breaks down, contributing to climate change. 850 pounds of waste was created and measured in one year by Queen’s Shop alone. However they recycle and repurpose 95% of salon waste, including hair clippings, foils, packaging, and excess color. Hair color, lightener and toner or thrown away every day. And when rinsed down the drain, they can find their way back into our drinking water and soil.

I met Alicia through Kristy and Brianna at Decade Impact. You might remember them from episode 14. Alicia and I went through the B Corp readiness program together. A hair salon was one of the last businesses that I had naively thought could create positive impact. And after hearing all of the careful considerations that the Queen’s Shop team has taken in terms of social environmental initiatives. I was left so inspired because no matter what your industry is, there’s small changes you can take. To build a really special, impactful business and lower the carbon footprint, even in a salon.

And before opening Alicia had been hairdressing for nine years. She also spent time as a makeup artist and a wardrobe on film sets. She ended up at a popular Toronto salon where she spent several years being taught and mentored by hairstylists she respected. But when Alicia went through a separation, everything changed.

[00:05:16] Alicia Lumsden:  I think at that point when I was opening, I always did want to open. But you get complacent with life. Nothing’s really urging you to take that next step. But I was in a position where I had. It was a couple years out of my separation and just kind of like, well, what else is there? When you leave that big dramatic thing in your life and you have to reevaluate what’s going on and what’s actually going to make you happy that’s where I was at.

[00:05:45] Jennifer Chua: Also at this time, Alicia was not feeling well. She had a massive, knot in her stomach and some other health issues. Which led her to realize that she had food sensitivities or allergies. I mean, Something was up. And it wasn’t immediately clear what was wrong. While she began to look more into nutrition, environmental allergies, her husband at the time began to look at food and the world in general, from a climate perspective. He began to be concerned about prepping for the end of the world, future doom scenarios. And Alicia didn’t take it that far, but it did open her eyes to the realities of the changing world and her place in it.

And looking back now at her younger self, Alicia was always interested in how she could affect change.

[00:06:28] Alicia Lumsden: I was always. Well, we can’t waste that or that doesn’t go on the garbage that goes into the recycling or like, well, where can I help? I think actually that was the bigger thing too. all those environmental things were definitely key for me. Loving animals, wanting to be outside in the garden. But I think also, even though I was quiet and I’m a very small person I was still the first to speak up about something. So if people were bullying others, I was still like, eh, what do you, doing? So, I mean, I think all of those things… who I am today as a person, whether it’s what I care about for the planet or what I care about for people it’s. Yeah, it was all there as a child.

[00:07:10] Jennifer Chua: Queen’s Shop is a diverse and inclusive space. What do you mean by that?

[00:07:14] Alicia Lumsden: I want . Everyone to feel welcome. So one thing I heard when I was hairdressing as a career before opening, was that, you know, someone would walk into a space and they would just feel judged. They would feel like they needed to do their hair before they went to the salon to feel accepted. To be there. And to me that was just like, you’re paying me. Why am I, I mean, I’m full of judgments. I’m a Virgo full of judgement. But like there’s no need to make someone else feel awful because you’re analyzing what’s going on. I think that’s what a lot of people do. Predominantly as a protective thing for themselves, their ego kind of comes out and wants to like, I dunno, fight for them. And so they ended up treating others poorly. I think that’s the biggest thing. Salons tend to have big egos and there’s just no place anywhere for a big mean ego.

[00:08:16] Jennifer Chua: Just an aside in the nineties, I used to go to Coupe Bizzarre on queen street. I went there because I wanted very out there asymmetrical cuts and they were really the best at that, but that was a space where I very much did feel judgment. And then as I transitioned through my life, so then I remember I was like 26 and I was still going there. Two stylists I would go between. And I remember saying, but I have a job now at like a corporate place. So we need to, we need to transition somehow into something that is a little, and they were just not impressed with my life choices.

[00:08:53] Alicia Lumsden: Oh yeah. Yeah. I can totally see that being a thing. I think Coupe is the extreme and with that, eventually, if you didn’t know you sooner or later knew that it was just where you went to have something a certain way. You didn’t really have the conversation.

You just, you just got what you got and it was going to be great, but you got what you got. But even, even everywhere else, you still get the subtleties of oh, you’re not good enough to be here. You know? It’s like, have you ever walked into like a really expensive store in your sweats. And then you go in like a week later in your really nice trench coat and like all of your jewelry on and the way you’re treated it’s just night and day. I’m like, I still have the same money, same person.

[00:09:42] Jennifer Chua: So what is the experience of walking into your shop? what happens when someone comes and visits you?

[00:09:47] Alicia Lumsden: What happens is that someone walks in and they’re greeted with I guess the feeling of a friendly smile, cause he can’t see our smiles and just acknowledged, welcomed, show them around, get them all set up and uh, Comfortable. Right now I feel like it’s a little different and less nice, but Before, it’s definitely very homey. I’d like to make people feel at home. Definitely as a human, I get a little anxious being a hostess because I want to make sure that all the things are done, but in the salon space, it’s nice. We show them around. We tell them exactly what’s expected of them. Bring them coffee and tea, any other beverages they might want and just continuously direct them. I think that’s the big thing that I’m always letting new staff know is that this is your home. And every client is a guest and it is your responsibility to let them know where they can put their coat. If they need to take their shoes off. If they would like a beverage, where they’re going to stay and hangout while you leave the room for a moment and come back, when their stylist is going to come. Those are all little things that will allow the person to be put at ease and know their place. And I think that’s on a, on a bigger thought, we all just want to know our place.

[00:11:08] Jennifer Chua: We’ve had the opportunity to talk a lot about diversity, equity and inclusion outside of this conversation. And I know that that is really important to you. What is the makeup of your staff look like? How are you being inclusive as a business owner?

[00:11:25] Alicia Lumsden: It is predominantly women. We’re not all women. No. And we don’t all identify as she So that, that is the thing. I don’t think I’m not judging anyone on what their gender is or what their look is. I want men, women, non binary to work in this space, and I want people with interesting unique styles. I want them to actually show their, their style. I think as, as was commented recently that I don’t have a dress code. I do have a dress code is just, is professional trendy. You don’t have to wear all black. You don’t have to wear all white, but you have to be professional in your style. Because hairdressers are artists. So they should be representing their style. Whether that’s through their, their clothing, their hair or whatever that might be, they should still be representing that. When it comes to ethnicity, I think that’s always a challenging one because I can’t I can’t just go out and be like, you, I need you. Cause you’re gonna fix this. Especially when you’re looking for skills and I, I definitely want it and I encourage it. I often actually find more comfort in it if I can find it, if it comes my way and they fit the space. And that’s the other side too, is like everyone that comes in to be hired. I, I asked them, do you understand what the word sustainability means? And so I kinda need someone who’s interested in at least learning about it.

And so I find that even as it is, I already cut down the amount of people that I can hire for any position in this space, because of that, because people just don’t don’t necessarily care, which is unfortunate, but hoping I can change that. I don’t really talk about this. So I guess this is another part of why, if I can find people of different ethnicities it’s actually important to me. I’m a quarter Japanese. And my mom definitely grew up in a time being half Japanese where she was made fun of, a lot, and often. And I think it intensely impacted the way she evolved as a human as an adult. I think there’s just so much trauma for her growing up in a time when, I mean, I think, I think.

People from Japan couldn’t be citizens until maybe five years before she was born in Canada. Which is just, it’s just mind blowing when you think about it. You know, when I think about that, my own ancestors had property and had all that taken from them and put it into a camp because there was a war going on somewhere else. They were instantly accused of of doing wrong when they just simply were born somewhere. I think that’s, that’s a big part of why I do want diversity and inclusion everywhere I can. You have a different skin color, whether you don’t have the funds you know, whether you’re, you’re having a hard time, whether you’re living on the street, whatever your situation is. I think I think we all just deserve a little love and compassion.

[00:14:41] Jennifer Chua: I do want to get back to how you’re supporting your community, but I would love to talk about sustainability. When you were in hair school or acting as a hairstylist or working in that space and you began to look at things like conventional hair care products and conventional treatments, did you find anything surprising?

A lot of people fall into the interest of sustainability in different ways. They will start exploring, going down some sort of route and be like, this is not what I thought it was at all. Or I can’t believe how much plastic waste we have here. Or I can’t believe that this choice I’m making actually impacts someone else down the line in a different way than I thought originally.

[00:15:23] Alicia Lumsden: We had two big bins in the, in the basement. I guess three where I worked. One was garbage. One was recycling and I mean, that was always a little thing for me to like that doesn’t belong in there. And then the big hair bin. And then that kind of just goes out with garbage. And that was always a thing, where I was like, isn’t there a solution here? And there, there was I think around when I did start, but it was a pretty small company. Green circle salons had already started. And it just, it took a while for people to understand that there is a solution. And I think that’s more recent that that’s been a thing that people are thinking about and realizing that if you put something in the recycling bag, it doesn’t mean it gets recycled. Aside from that, I don’t think I thought much about that the things that we used, because I suppose I didn’t realize that there could possibly be other solutions. And the thing that I think I thought about most was when I did start to go through those changes with my ex husband changing our diet changing, like how much time we spent outside. I would actually go to work after a weekend and get a headache from just smelling the shampoo. And to me, that was a big red flag to imagine how sick people probably could get, if they had a higher sensitivity to what was in the products.

[00:16:44] Jennifer Chua: These products that you’re using, when I think of salons and I think of salon quality products or the kind of products that I would think as someone who doesn’t work in this space at all, I would think of your shampoos that are lining the walls beautifully in the salons for purchase. I don’t think that they’re going to be sustainable. Like it’s not the first thought that comes to my mind. I think they’re going to work really well. Can you explain to me what kind of products you’ve chosen to use or why you made those decisions?

[00:17:13] Alicia Lumsden: When I was opening, I was looking at a lot of different options because that was important to me. I knew what I used at home. I knew how I felt when I went into the salon after the weekend. And I didn’t have any severe ailments aside from my digestive issues. But I mean, a headache is alarming enough. And so I wanted to make sure that the company cared and also had plant-based ingredients and also was effective because. I think until more recently, and I’m sure there’s a lot of hairdressers who still don’t believe it. The idea would be that a plant-based hair color you think of henna or you think of like, like the stuff you buy in the natural drug store. But that’s never looks nice. And your greys aren’t getting covered. So that was a big factor for me as well when I was looking at different companies. And I almost couldn’t find something that still had good reviews on there, a great coverage. If you can’t cover grey you don’t have the company, you have nothing is, is my perspective as a hairdresser. So I ended up actually looking at Davines, which is what we carry. And I didn’t realize that they had color. I was just looking at them for their products. And and then I realized that they had color as well. And I kind of fell in love with them almost instantly. I asked around a few friends that I knew use their products as well. Do you like them? Do they do the job? Are they less than great? What was the end result? And they give me a little care package, take home, try it. They care. They’re a family owned company. They have their own manufacturer where they manufacture other products. So I know they’re not getting sold out. Which to me is, was also a fear. You get invested into a company and then some big company buys them and then everything’s washed out and it’s no longer what it was, but you still have the same branding and marketing.

Their main line. They have slow food farms in Italy that they have one ingredient from like their active ingredient from one of these farms. And that’s what they use. When I started with them, it was before they were B Corp, but in, I think 2016, they became a B Corp. And so they’re just continuously doing a new thing each year, changing their formulas and evolving their packaging to continuously become more sustainable. I found them quite exciting.

[00:19:45] Jennifer Chua: Is there anything else about our trip to the salon? That’s maybe less than ideal in terms of sustainability.

[00:19:52] Alicia Lumsden: we use a lot of water. And I guess that’s that’s another thing I love about Davines. They have a high percentage of naturally derived ingredients and biodegradable ingredients. As we’re using a mass amount of water with we got a company called eco heads. And so it just kinda changes the flow. So you get more pressure, but with less water used. And then all of the shampoo and color that you washed down the drain is just a little bit softer on the water that needs to be cleaned out. I think that’s probably one of the biggest things. We do recycle. We use green circle salons to recycle everything and they take everything to a manufacturer to turn it into something else. So that’s nice to know, compared to city recycling. We need a lot of lights. That was the big thing for me at the beginning, when we opened is changing everything into LEDs or any appliances or fixtures that we have, having them being energy star or somehow cutting down on the amount of energy that was used.

[00:20:55] Jennifer Chua: So how environmentally friendly can a salon be really? You’ve done so much to create this low waste environment. I’m wondering if there is anything else that you’re striving towards in your efforts to become green?

[00:21:06] Alicia Lumsden: In a perfect world, in a perfect world, I would have a standalone space where I could have solar panels and a gray brown water system. Maybe some geothermal heating but that’s not really, that’s not realistic in the city. Maybe if I have a place in the country or something, I can do some little spa retreat kind of thing with all of those magical systems in place.

 I mean, I don’t know if there is much more we could do right now. We try to reuse whatever we can. we go through tons of towels and so when they start to disintegrate, we’ll cut them up and we, we use them as decoration in the salon or find other ways that we can turn them into something. Even with our cleaning products, I make sure that all our including in products are eco-friendly mindful of where we’re getting them. We usually use Saponetti across the street, they’re a refill company. So we usually get majority of our cleaning products from them, which is great. And then we can just refill all of our bottles all the time versus having to buy new bottles. Yeah, I mean, we have pretty low waste. We’re not a big enough space to utilize a compost system. So that would go to the same as my standalone space and I’d have a spot for our compost in the back and it wouldn’t matter.

Yeah, I think those are the things I would love if someone gave me brilliant ideas for other things, because I feel like you can always only think so far, right.

[00:22:39] Jennifer Chua: And if I walk into your salon, you’ve taken my coat away and you’re offering me a beverage or a snack, as salon owners, do, what will I be served? Or what will I be offered when I come to visit you?

[00:22:53] Alicia Lumsden: So, we have been using Genuine Tea., which is an ethically sourced, local tea brand. Lovely, lovely couple. Lovely company. We also use propeller coffee, which is also around the corner from us, which is great. And they’re similar. Fair trade ethical brand as well. Additionally, we are licenced. So you can have local craft beer or a glass of bubbly if you like. For snacks we used to do a snack spread vegetables and hummus and crackers and all that good stuff. I don’t carry any meat or dairy in the salon. So if you do want milk with your coffee or tea, it’s going to be oat milk. If you really want milk, which is fine, but I don’t judge anyone. There’s a cafe right next door. So we’ll, we’ll run next door and get you some of that.

[00:23:48] Jennifer Chua: And so you said you serve bubbly on occasion. Does that mean that you do community events?

[00:23:53] Alicia Lumsden: We haven’t in a while. I really can’t wait until things go a little bit more back to normal. We just do so many fun things throughout the year. We have artwork through out the year. We change it every couple of months to a different artist. And we always start with an art opening. And so that’s an open house and anyone can come in and we have alcohol available or we carry loop juice. Oh my gosh. Check them out. They use near bad fruit and veggies. They’re from Montreal. They make cold press juice and I believe they just started making beer. They might’ve even started making gin. I don’t know. They’re cool. I think they’re cool.

[00:24:33] Jennifer Chua: You’ve really taken every little aspect of the experience into consideration, really for your guests. And created this environment that seems to be incredibly sustainable. which is surprising. Cause when I think of a hair salon, it seems like the last type of business that you could take and make it into something that’s eco-friendly. How did you stumble upon this idea to even try to take on such a, in my opinion, massive feat.

[00:25:07] Alicia Lumsden: Thank you. I think it’s just it’s everything I want in my daily life. I can be a snob in the best of way. I think that’s just what it comes down to as I just I, I want these things for myself. And maybe even it’s my own self-reflection that I, I would feel like a hypocrite offering something, even though I know you can’t be perfect. I do have perfectionist issues. I know you can’t be perfect when it comes to being sustainable and having perfection as the goal is not healthy. But we have been open for several years, so every step of the way another thing gets changed. Evolved. And grows and gets better and better and better. You know, we didn’t open licensed. We didn’t open with the way that our place looks now. But every step of the way we add something new or we reevaluate and see how things can be done better.

[00:25:54] Jennifer Chua: and I noticed that you have an online shop too, and that you sell some other sustainable goods. Can you tell us what those are and why you chose to do that?

[00:26:02] Alicia Lumsden: It wasn’t necessarily something I always wanted to do to have the online store, but I feel like out of so many closures and being locked down for so long, it became necessity to evolve into its own store. The pursuit of finding products was rather challenging. All the different little aspects that matter to me, I had to then find in a product and they exist, which is exciting. But it was hard to find things that are actually sustainable. And so what I found is there’s so much beauty stuff being launched right now, but then the packaging isn’t in line. And to me, that’s just so confusing why would you go through the effort of making it sustainable on the inside, but not sustainable on the outside?

Why are we not talking about our packaging? As a province, as a world we’re pushing for an elimination on single use plastics, but we’re not talking about our packaging. So that, I think that ended up being my, my biggest thing when I was looking for products. Making sure that our packaging, when we were sending it out to you was going to be sustainable and that you could count on us for that.

I don’t know about you, but I hate getting something and there’s just all this extra stuff and space. And I’m like, why I don’t you’re not going to receive a packaging slip in our shipments because I don’t personally like them when I get them. I know what I ordered. I don’t need a checklist of what I ordered. So that’s something we don’t do. And then it was also important that what we were sending as, as best as we could, the ingredients were good, the product itself was functional and effective. That the packaging, the company cared about their packaging whether it was a sustainable by default, or they actually took an extra initiative. One company that I love Axiology, they’re a little makeup lid to lip balmy. So you can put it on your lips, your cheeks and your eyelids, and they’re all really subtle tones. As a makeup artist to a consumer they’re full-proof because they just blend really well. But additionally, their packaging is recycled from the beaches of Bali. And then they employ local people to help that situation. So they’re removing waste, they’re employing people and they’re giving you a sustainable recyclable packaging.

[00:28:30] Jennifer Chua: So when your clients come in to visit you in the salon, do they understand how much impact you’re creating here? How do you feel people are responding to this messaging? Cause it just seems like you’re doing so much. I’m just wondering how are people resonating with this or do you think that consumers are still just looking to get beautiful hair and don’t care so much about what’s gone on in behind the scenes?

[00:28:56] Alicia Lumsden: Yeah, we could always do better at um, better educating. At the same time. I think I guess a key marketing thing is repetition, right? The more you repeat the things, the more people actually hear it because they don’t often hear it the first couple of times. I think there are people that care in those are definitely our fans. I think there are slowly becoming more, more people that care. I also think that not everyone’s going to nerd out the way I am currently about these kinds of things and that’s fine. So long as we can take the thinking out of it, for people who don’t care as much and just make it an easy, like you don’t have to care this is just good quality stuff. That’s doing good in the world. However we can get that message out. I do think a lot of our clients do come because we take the, the extra work of caring out of it for them. They just, they know that they’ve made a good decision and everything’s just going to get taken care of for when they’re there. We’re going to recommend things that are good for them as well as good for the planet.

[00:30:07] Jennifer Chua: And so you’ve been going for B Corp certification. Are there many salons that are B Corp certified?

[00:30:12] Alicia Lumsden: There’s one out west. One in all of Canada, so I’m okay to be second. I can follow.

[00:30:21] Jennifer Chua: And B Corp certification is difficult to get, and I can only imagine that it would be very difficult in a business like yours.

[00:30:28] Alicia Lumsden: I feel like as a, as a company that relies on… basically what you do with your brick and mortar and your employees and, your policies on who you choose to carry. I do find it is actually a little bit more difficult versus being a brand. Like a product brand. To actually to, check the boxes.

[00:30:51] Jennifer Chua: There’s more discovery for sure.

[00:30:54] Alicia Lumsden: Yeah, what we do – hair itself. Isn’t an act that that really does anything in these areas. I mean, obviously there’s little things little subtleties and in the amount of compassion that you have but it’s not directly impacted the social and the environmental part. So I do find it can be a little bit tricky for that. I would definitely say that since I’ve started looking at B Corp, my comfort level with offering my team more and more has definitely expanded. You know, I think when you’re small and starting out and you only have a few employees, it’s kind of hard to rationalize, well, I only have this much coming in how can. I give you more than just being nice and supportive and helping you build your career. How can I give you a higher wage? How can I give you benefits? How can I give you sick days? Like those little things that do help an employee succeed and feel better. It’s hard to imagine as a small employer. But the more I’ve kind of looked at it and thought about it and, and was brought awareness through B Corp about it and asked more questions it’s just allowed me to, to just have the comfort and confidence that I can actually offer those things and it, it, isn’t actually going to cost the business that much more in the long run. And I think that was probably the bigger, impactful thing going through the B Corp journey. We’re already doing so much sustainability wise. I feel like that’s, those are all just easy givens us.

[00:32:29] Jennifer Chua: Is there any other way that you’re affecting social change with your business?

[00:32:33] Alicia Lumsden: I think so. I’m actually excited to possibly affect more social change. I’m going to adjust our prices in the new year for removing gratuities. Throughout the past couple of years, it’s been more on the hair industry’s mind. Why are we still taking gratuities? Why is this a thing? It’s uncomfortable. As much as a stylist can say that it’s a gift and they just simply appreciate it. It’s still becomes part of their income, part of their expected income, because they use that for a certain part of their bills. Why is this a thing? Why isn’t that just in your pay? Why is that how we’re doing things? There are other salons doing it, not many, but I hope that we can encourage some social innovation with that mentality and evolving those kinds of things. In the new year, at some point when it starts to warm up, we’re going to start doing some more pay what you can haircuts with the Stop. We’re finally a big enough team. We have the support, we have the time. I think that’s something we can definitely do. And I think it’s needed as well with how much, how many people have lost their jobs. How many people have lower income paying jobs? Have definitely felt the hit over the last couple of years and prices are just going up.

[00:33:59] Jennifer Chua: What about collectively our children, the adults of the future, the hairstylists of the future. How do you think that what you’re doing with your salon is impacting future generations?

[00:34:13] Alicia Lumsden: I know when I was starting out, I was on my honeymoon with my ex and uh, We were at a cute little Airbnb in Niagara lake. And so we had the super cute, 60 plus couples sitting around us, so excited for newly wed newness. And so they were asking what we did. He was an electrician. We’re both trades. We both have to go through the ministry and the Ontario college of trades and write an exam. His process is a little bit longer but ours requires more school. So. There’s a little bit of a similarity and starting out, we both made the same and eventually I made more and the, these adorable couples around us however many generations older. The second I said that I was a hairdresser. They’re like, oh, that’s nice. That’s nice for you. And he said he was an electrician and you know, they were just like, oh, look at you. That’s great. So I think, I think that’s what the industry currently wants to change.

Hairdressers have a lot to offer. And as much as, having your hair hygiene taken care of is necessity. Having your hair done is also a luxury and if you’re going to a higher end salon it’s because those hairdressers have put a lot of work and effort into training and evolving. Their skills and their skills are technical as well as, managing a person in their chair, managing assisstants to support them with that. And then also being a creative. And doing all of those things at the same time while building their career. Most people don’t think hairdressers do that much. Most people think we just go to work and have fun and chew some bubble gum and that’s it. They don’t think about the, all the different little things that go into it, as well as the pseudo therapist that we are as well. I’m excited to see that evolve.

[00:36:26] Jennifer Chua: So you’ve made big strides in changing the hair game in terms of how people view hairstylists, how really low waste you can become as a hair salon. You’re really pushing these boundaries. Are you hopeful now for the future?

[00:36:43] Alicia Lumsden: That’s a tough one. I want to be. I think our younger generations definitely care about these things. But I think with, with all big change, there’s a big reset. And I think we’re going through a big reset right now. And I think there’s still a lot of nastiness, so to speak in the, I don’t know if that’s the simplest way for me to put it. There’s definitely people who need to be reminded that they need to take care of themselves first, but then there’s the taking that consideration to the next level of like, what does it matter? Who I step on along the way, because I’m all that matters. And so I think we’re in a, in a bit of a reset of understanding self care and mental health and speaking up for yourself and setting boundaries for yourself and understanding what all of that means and mindfulness, what all that means versus just walking over everyone. So I’m hopeful that the reset will happen and everything will fall into place. I am hopeful that I think small business can start to plan again and I am hopeful. 2020 and 2021 gave us a lot of things to think about. And there’s a lot more people reevaluating what’s important and what’s not important.

[00:38:11] Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Alicia and her sustainable and inclusive beauty salon visit Queen’sShopHair.com. In Toronto? Visit Queen’s . Shop to enjoy an uplifting salon experience. No matter your age, gender, race, or orientation. You can follow along with Alicia on her mission to promote sustainability within the beauty space. At instagram @queensshophair

Romina Kwong from Eco-Friendly Events was inspired to help event organizers and business owners with their green initiatives after being a bridesmaid in a friend’s wedding. In this episode, we discover from Romina what steps can be taken to make larger-scale events more environmentally friendly. We then learn how to realistically green your holiday season at home, with small actionable tips that won’t take away from the joy of the occasion. We chat about where to buy gifts, how to wrap them and find eco-friendly alternatives for the biggest waste producers of your holiday gathering. We discuss the benefits of real versus artificial trees, talk about why you may want to skip balloons for New Year’s Eve and help you reduce waste and environmental impact with practical and affordable swaps to help spread cheer, this year, sustainably.

Organizing an in-person gathering this year? Visit ecofriendlyevents.ca/links to download a free eco-friendly party planning guide to help you reduce waste and your environmental impact over and over again. If you want to learn more about Romina and her holistic, accessible and realistic approach to environmental sustainability, visit ecofriendlyevents.ca. You can follow along with Romina and catch her live on Instagram, on her mission to help event organizers and businesses be eco-friendly on Facebook or Instagram at ecofriendly.events.

Links from this episode

• savethefood.com/guestimator
• FREE Eco-Friendly Party Planning Guide
• After Christmas – Tree Recycling Ideas 

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:28] Jennifer Chua: The holiday season is approaching, and many of us are looking forward to gathering with our loved ones in person this year. Our holiday season celebrations do generate a lot of trash. Household waste increases more than 25% over the period of mid-November to New Year’s Eve with an extra 300,000 tons of waste heading to Canadian landfills during the last six weeks of the year. The good news is there are a lot of things you can do to reduce your environmental impact and make your holiday season a bit brighter. And this year now that extended families are gathering again, you have the opportunity to create even bigger impact.

 It’s more energy efficient to prepare one meal, decorate and heat one home than it is for several. And if you gather with friends or relatives that live locally over traveling by air, your holiday can be even more environmentally friendly. The holidays mean a lot to us, especially this year. And most of us are looking forward to the spirit of the season.

So it’s about taking practical, impactful actions that makes sense. And that mean the most. I asked Romina Kwong from eco-friendly events to join us this week and walk us through some small and actionable tips to green our holiday season.

So if you choose to skip the Christmas crackers or buy gifts secondhand, swap the Turkey for a plant-based alternative, or use your decade old artificial tree for just one more year. Romina has some realistic tips that you can take into the holiday season. And by rethinking waste this holiday, you have the opportunity to get the children around you involved and gently influence your loved ones while creating new, more mindful holiday traditions.

 Romina is the founder of eco-friendly events. She works with business owners and event organizers, helping ensure that events are using best practices in terms of sustainability. She holds a degree in environmental studies and economics and international development studies and is an advocate for environmental and social justice. But it wasn’t until she was a bridesmaid that she ever considered getting involved in the world of events.

[00:04:40] Romina Kwong: I ended up going back to school for event management. And while we were encouraged to volunteer a lot, just to get ourselves out there in the industry, I just realized how wasteful it was. And it sort of just like clicked in my brain that this is something that I could do there. Wasn’t anybody really leading this sort of like industry of connecting both environmental sustainability in the events industry. So. Shortly after I graduated and worked a little bit in the industry, I decided that I wanted to do something about it. And so I started eco-friendly events.

[00:05:13] Jennifer Chua: Do you remember a point in your life maybe way before this wedding, when you became interested in sustainability? Like, is there a moment that stands out in your mind?

[00:05:22] Romina Kwong: A couple of moments. So first was in grade four. My parents work at Panasonic and they had this like competition with energy star. And so every grade had their own like little project that you competed in. And so in grade four, I think we get to write maybe like a one-page document about why we cared about the environment I actually won that competition for my grade. And so it was really cool. And then from there it was just in grade 12 when I did like world studies and it was around the time where we had to decide what we wanted to study in university or what, like path we wanted to choose. And it sort of clicked again there. And so that just kind of has been sort of lifelong, but just popped up here and there

[00:06:06] Jennifer Chua: Did your parents influence this at all? Does your family have any traditions that were like sustainably minded?

[00:06:12] Romina Kwong: We were avid sorter household of like, this goes into recycling. This goes into the green bin and this goes into the garbage and just constantly like reusing or repairing things. So anytime I had holes in my clothing to this day, I still give it to my mom to repair instead of having to just buy something new, just because.

[00:06:32] Jennifer Chua: When you told your family and your friends that you were choosing events to make your impact on the world, what kind of feedback did you get at that time?

[00:06:41] Romina Kwong: It was more of like, huh, I never really thought about it that way. Or it’d be like, oh, that’s really cool, but I don’t think anybody gets it. And even now I think a lot of event planners or people in the events industry just think that I plan eco-friendly events. Whereas I really, I just want to work with event organizers and consult with them. So leave the planning to them and I’ll focus on sustainability.

[00:07:06] Jennifer Chua: When you’re working with a company or a corporation and maybe their event planner as a consultant, what are you looking for in terms of how to make their event more sustainable? Like, what is that connection that you’re making?

[00:07:19] Romina Kwong: So it obviously is dependent on when they bring me in, like what part of the planning process they’re in. So in an ideal world, if they bring me on from the very beginning, it’s figuring out where, which venue, like, where are you hosting it and what is available there? So what is their waste management look like? Do they have a recycling program. And what do they accept into those bins? What sort of energy does that building run on? Is it lead certified or is it green key certified, depending on where it is. And then from there, it’s just like, then we look at catering, so the different aspects of planning and just picking, like where can we make changes and impact that also aligns with your budget?

So also being realistic at the same time. So. Yes in an ideal world, I’d love to change everything over, but I know that’s not realistic. So what are the most important parts or points or values, I guess to the corporation, to the event planner and sort of figuring out ways that we can plan the event in alignment with those. So if it’s food waste, Okay. So let’s focus on catering and maybe we won’t focus necessarily on the venue, even though we could make a difference there.

[00:08:28] Jennifer Chua: When you began to get more into events and exploring this industry and figuring this all out, so you’ve had this experience as the bridesmaid and you began to realize what kind of waste events generate, and then went to school for it. Did you find anything surprising when you began to look at this world?

[00:08:46] Romina Kwong: I guess it just never occurred to me as like a festival attendee or just attending an event, just like behind the scenes, how much waste there actually is. And. Just how tired everyone is. Like you’ve been up or onsite since I don’t know, 6:00, 7:00 AM. And then you come onsite, do the event put on all the various fires that you need to and then at the end, everything just gets tossed. It’s dark outside. If it’s a festival and everyone just wants to go home. And so. With my lens. It just like clicked. You really do need an extra body or person that’s sort of in charge of that. Who can take a proactive approach versus reactive? Because yeah, been there sore feet need to change your shoes and nobody wants to do it. Including myself, if you’ve been there.

[00:09:34] Jennifer Chua: I can only imagine that something like a festival would be fairly complicated in this case, because I have many memories of attending many festivals. Like we live in Toronto and they’re here all the time. And just the amount of garbage leftover at the end and the water situation is usually problematic. Have you had the opportunity to work on any festivals?

[00:09:56] Romina Kwong: there was one. So with the wine and spirit festival, I think it was 2018, 2019. It’s hard to remember time these days. Um, They actually took a more proactive approach and they hired on a green team. So this was just shortly after, I finished school, so I hadn’t started my business yet. So I was part of the green team and I ended up leading the green team and it was really cool that they spoke to the waste management company to say, okay, so the cups that we’re using for all the drinks, they are compostable or biodegradable, and they can go into the green bin and we’re like, awesome. Sweet. And it wasn’t until all the vendors were like setting up and then they had all this garbage with them and we didn’t know which bin it went to, the plastic wrap, carrying like cases of juices or for example, we didn’t know if that could go into the recycling bin. Cause that was not something that was ever discussed with the waste management company, and they, at that point they had already left. And so I was just like, oh Yeah like there are so many other things. All the food vendors, all the things that they were serving food in. You see a lot of those brown containers now or like paper containers.

And we were like, I don’t know if this is lined with plastic, if it’s lined with wax, like can it go into the green bin? And so it was just at this point, a guessing game and. That’s when it really clicked. I was like, okay, like, this is something that people need to understand to really make that impact. And for me, it’s not about just for show, like I do care about what impact are we making? Are we actually doing something better for the earth, our planet and the people. Seeing that was just like, okay, there is something here, but we need to make it better.

[00:11:34] Jennifer Chua: And I find that businesses are becoming more responsive to sustainability. And I don’t know if that is because us as a society are driving that change, but how have you seen a change in business? Have you seen more people specifically looking for services like yours? Are they overall overarchingly really trying to make change in this area?

[00:11:57] Romina Kwong: I think so. I think it obviously depends on the generation. I think all the younger generations definitely care a lot more, it’s on their mind. They’re constantly trying to look for the eco-friendly or greener products. I think the disconnect is people will see all of these things they’re advertised as compostable, green and that sort of thing.

And all of these are just buzz words. Like they don’t actually know the definition and there isn’t really a definition, like, it’s not set across the board. If you say it’s green, what does that actually mean? And does it mean the same thing for your beauty products versus your, toothbrush or cleaning products?

There is no standard. And so I think that’s where the disconnect and struggle is, everyone has the best of intentions, but they’ve lack the knowledge both as a business, who’s trying to be more eco-friendly, but then also as a consumer as well, because they don’t totally understand the nuances.

[00:12:51] Jennifer Chua: And I think green, and compostable and biodegradable, like these are words that all of us have heard now. We all have kind of an understanding of what they mean, but what about carbon neutral? I’ve been hearing carbon neutral more and more. And even in terms of events, can you explain to me what that means? or what’s going on with carbon neutrality?

[00:13:11] Romina Kwong: It is becoming a trend it’s a little bit green-washing. There is a body that does certify things as carbon neutral, and they have a specific definition, to be carbon neutral is basically like the amount of carbon you’re admitting. You’re offsetting so that it becomes like zero, essentially. And for me personally, and my viewpoint, I think it’s a bit of green-washing because. If I’m emitting like a ton of carbon emissions and I’m then offsetting it. You’re not reducing anything. So you’re not necessarily making it better.

Same thing with carbon offsetting, you’re investing in maybe green technology, like a wind farm or solar panels. And yes, you are investing in a different type of technology that will help, but it’s not taking that carbon out of the atmosphere. And so when you hear like Elon Musk and other people in the world talking about carbon capture. That’s what they’re talking about is like taking the carbon out of the atmosphere and putting it back either into the ground or wherever and storing it. All of that is complicated. Um, But not at the same time.

[00:14:18] Jennifer Chua: What are some of the ways that we can reduce waste and green our holidays at home this year?

[00:14:24] Romina Kwong: There’s this website and tool that I love, it’s called the guest-imator. And you can input the amount of people, um, that are attending. What kind of eater are they, are they a light eater or a heavy eater, like average? And it’ll tell you how much exactly that You need. you can even account for like a couple of leftover meals or no leftovers, and then that way you’re significantly reducing the amount of food waste you might potentially have, or just like leftovers that you don’t want to continuously eat for weeks on end. So that’s one. Second, at least in my family, we gather so much and we have so many people that were never really using disposables, which is nice. But if you are that household that maybe only has like six sets, think about renting or think about asking family members to just bring their own.

I know it’s kind of like weird, but that’s where it starts is that shift in mindset to be like, Hey, we would love to just reduce the amount of waste. Do you mind bringing the set of plates for your own family? Like just your immediate family. It’s not like lugging a bunch over and, making sure you do have the proper bins at home and you are sorting and recycling and composting if you have that in your area. And also looking up what can and cannot be accepted into those bins as well. So that’s, what’s important. Just because it’s certified compostable doesn’t mean that the municipality or waste management company that serves your area will accept it. So like, for example, in the city of Toronto, all of those compostable materials, bamboo things, and all of that, They don’t accept in the green bin. So at the end of the day, you do have to throw it in the trash. So that’s something to be mindful of.

And then with decorations, is, are you reusing your decorations from years past or are you constantly buying new ones or can you invest may be in something that’s a little bit more expensive than you can reuse over and over again? Or maybe you just forgo the decorations, maybe you don’t need them. It really, really depends. And so that’s just a few key areas. I think that we can all think about reducing environmental impact.

[00:16:29] Jennifer Chua: So next weekend, we will be with my family, going to select our Christmas tree for the year. I was wondering if you had any input on whether an artificial tree is a better choice than a natural tree, or how do you feel about trees?

[00:16:42] Romina Kwong: It really just goes back down to something called the life cycle assessment that they do for products. And so it really depends on how long you’re going to be able to reuse that, um, fake tree. And you have to do that assessment and figure out which one lasts longer. From what I’ve read, the natural tree is better because most people don’t keep the fake one long enough for it to be worth it. So, um, that’s my 2 cents on that topic with regards to the tree. Like I know we have an artificial one, but we’ve been using it for years and years since I was a child. And so for us, it was just, my mom just didn’t want to deal with the hassle of having a real one. So I’ve never had a real one, which is, um, something that I might look into changing what I felt when I’m out on my own.

[00:17:29] Jennifer Chua: I will look into the product life cycle of the artificial tree. But yeah, I think it was 20 years.

[00:17:35] Romina Kwong: Yeah. It was like 15 Or 20 years. Yeah, we’ll definitely have to look it up. but I think if something like that, where if you, most people don’t keep it that long. So then it negates it being better than the real tree.

[00:17:47] Jennifer Chua: What kind of sustainable swaps can we make when considering Christmas tree decor?

[00:17:52] Romina Kwong: There’s a lot of Pinterest ideas of using like dried fruit and that sort of thing, which I think is cool. Cause then at the end of the day, yes, you can put it into your green bin. At the same time, I’ve heard people argue that while you’re just wasting fruit, which I’m like, okay, like it’s a bit of both. And so again, it comes back down to the same sort of conversation we had about the tree. How long are those decorations going to last you, are you going to keep reusing them? Or does the natural actually work better? I’m all about really what works for your lifestyle? Are you in a house? Do you have a storage locker? Can you store these things? And if you can’t then go with the natural. And if you can, amazing. Then keep reusing it for as long as you can . As a kid, we had these candy canes on our tree for years and years. Like nobody ate them, but it was just something that we kept and just kept reusing. It’s just figuring out what works for you. So not necessarily swapping everything out, all of a sudden, it’s just, what do you have? Can you continue using it and not buy new things?

[00:18:53] Jennifer Chua: I mean, my mom used to do that. Change up the Christmas tree theme every couple of years.

[00:18:58] Romina Kwong: Which is nice aesthetically, but not so much for the environment. If you’re tossing everything out.

[00:19:04] Jennifer Chua: This is one area too, where we like to keep traditions and joy. Like if you, if you do purchase an ornament from, I don’t know, a big box store or something, but it’s meaningful to you and you remember what year this was and it’s impactful on your life. That’s wonderful. But you’re just suggesting not to, do a complete tree decor overhaul every single year. Right.

[00:19:27] Romina Kwong: exactly, exactly. Use what you have. If things get broken, like if a pet bumps into the tree or your cat climbs a tree and things get broken, obviously after a while you only have so many ornaments that are left. So yes, if you are buying new ones and you’re going to keep them in good condition. Then yes. But Yeah also those natural swaps are a good idea as well. It really just depends. I won’t do it. It’s just too much effort for me. And I know that. And so you have to figure out yeah. What works for you, what works for your holidays? Cause it’s already stressful enough.

[00:20:00] Jennifer Chua: And our tradition around Christmas cards, sustainably speaking. What are some swaps we should make there? Should we be going to e-cards? Should we still be doing the glossy family photo cards and sending those out? What do you think we should do with cards this year?

[00:20:16] Romina Kwong: I think it really depends if you are doing the ones with the photographs, digital is a little bit better, but I don’t know if it’s for your grandmother who posts it on her fridge every year. Maybe send her a physical one. And I think you can always do a combination. I think it depends. For the older folks who are in your family. Maybe they want the physical because that’s what they’re used to. So send them the physical. And then maybe all your cousins and siblings, you can just send them an electronic one because they’re okay with that. They’re like, great. We’ll just like put it in an album or one of those like digital picture frames.

Figure out always that work and then just mixing and matching. Like you don’t have to do one or the other. It’s not an all or nothing. And that’s never, my approach. It’s just, maybe you try a couple of electronic. Maybe it’s two people you send electronic cards to, and then everybody else gets a physical one or vice versa

[00:21:09] Jennifer Chua: Then when you sit down to actually wrap all of those presents that we have acquired , are there some pretty easy, sustainable swaps that we can make when it comes to wrapping our gifts?

[00:21:19] Romina Kwong: I’ve started using like the brown craft paper. If you’re ordering anything online, starting now start saving those boxes and just reusing them. I know last year, because our family gathering for Christmas was a lot smaller. Nobody wrapped gifts in like proper things, they just like use newspaper, just like put it in a box and like tied some string around it. Because they knew that I wouldn’t want wrapping paper. So. Things like that, Or is there like a gift bag you can reuse, or wrapping it using like a scarf that you’re also gifting to them? Or maybe it’s like a tea towel and stuff like that.

Again, trying to be creative and you don’t have to do it for all of them. I know, like for kids, especially the joy of actually like ripping open a present is part, is part of it. And so, yeah, maybe it’s using newspaper or it’s using that craft paper so that you can recycle it at the end of it.

[00:22:13] Jennifer Chua: it comes to gifting or sustainable giving, really have you come across any really great gift ideas that we could use this year when it comes to looking how to maybe reduce our carbon footprint or make our gifting strategy more eco-friendly?

[00:22:30] Romina Kwong: Gifting services or just like helping out a friend. I actually saw a post recently on Instagram that made me rethink some things, as well is, maybe your friend doesn’t need, I don’t know a thing, like a physical item, but they need, they want a night off. And so you can babysit their kids for a night.

[00:22:47] Jennifer Chua: can I just interrupt and say that it’s the best gift

[00:22:49] Romina Kwong: Yes. Yeah, I’m happy to babysit Jennifer.

Maybe it’s a gift card, cause there’ve been saving up to buy something that they, they really needed. Think acts of service, when you think of like, the five love languages acts of service is what can you do for the person that will actually be such a huge help, that won’t cost you too much money, maybe a bit of your time. And you’re not just giving stuff for them to just pile on in their house.

[00:23:19] Jennifer Chua: I’ve received some really interesting gifts lately. And one of them was a box of frozen scones. So someone had taken the time to make scones in various flavours and then froze them. And then I get to put them in my freezer and then, bake on a whim as I feel like I would like one. And that is a really beautiful gift idea that is not coming from a store it’s really heartfelt and really, there was no plastic involved in the actual packaging and gifting it to me.

[00:23:49] Romina Kwong: Yes. Yes. And gift cards. I know they’re not the nicest or whatever, but, um, like I love that I get an electronic gift card. It just sits in my inbox and then I delete it once I use it. And instead of having now this plastic card and it’s like, what am I going to do with it after I scanned it. Right. I think the services are the best. So it’s like maybe it’s buying somebody a gift card to their favourite salon or the salon they go to or where they can get their hair and makeup done and maybe their nails done and things that people actually use or even grocery gift cards. I think those are the best because everybody needs to buy groceries and those are the best because it’s just useful. I’m the type of gift-giver that likes to find things that are unique, but also useful to the person that they’ll actually use rather than just be like, oh, thank you and then just set it aside. Are the most wasteful.

[00:24:42] Jennifer Chua: I think when it comes to children’s toys as a business owner, I’m looking to stock my shelves with multipurpose toys that are battery free, that are ethically made, all of those things. But as a parent, I am very much going to Facebook marketplace and Kijiji and going for used options for toys and because my child is used to it, she really doesn’t mind. She’s still asking for this plastic toy inside a plastic toy with batteries that I am resisting very hard this year. But overall, what do you think about buying used gifts or upcycling gifts for the holidays?

[00:25:26] Romina Kwong: I love that idea, especially with sometimes with toys, especially where it’s like, they want the thing, cause they’ve seen it on TV. And then it’s like, after a few months you don’t want that toy anymore or they kind of moved on. And so I think getting things second hand, whether it is from Facebook marketplace, which not everybody loves, it’s not the best experience all the time, but it is a good option, or going to your local value village or Goodwill or secondhand or thrift store, where you can buy things second hand, or is there anybody in your family? With us, for example, there’s a lot of female cousins and so all the clothes continuously get like moved around and same thing with toys. And so, I think that’s a great idea. I think it’s just, you need to shift that mindset for people to not think it’s weird. Because you’re like, why would I give somebody something used? Well, do they really need it new? Do they need all that plastic? And Packaging with it, or can you just wrap it nicely in a scarf? And that’s also how they carry around that set of toys or that set of whatever it is you’re gifting.

[00:26:31] Jennifer Chua: Are we as a society making shifts there, like, do you think this is becoming more accepted?

[00:26:37] Romina Kwong: I think for certain things we’re getting there. So for clothing, for example, like thrifting is now trendy, which I’m not mad about because it is a good thing, but, I think we still have a long ways to go with like gifting and things like that.

[00:26:51] Jennifer Chua: And what about regifting?

[00:26:52] Romina Kwong: I don’t have a problem with that. I just, I feel like if it’s going to be a better use for somebody else, I think again, it’s that shift in culture and with all of us if you’re going to be offended that somebody regifts something… as long as it’s not regifted back to the same person, I think you’re good. I think you’re ok. If we’re more thoughtful and purposeful with the gifts to begin with, then we wouldn’t necessarily have the regifting problem or issue to begin with. Right. Like if you think more carefully about it, okay. So, and so needs this, or maybe buy something edible, then that way, you know, it’s consumed and somebody will eat it. And that’s such a great idea. I think even like at weddings for the party favours, like just give them a cookie with your name on it or something. Cause then somebody will eat it, whether it’s that person or somebody in their family. And so, Yeah. edible gifts.

[00:27:44] Jennifer Chua: Favors is a really big one, I think, in terms of waste, any kind of party favours.

[00:27:50] Romina Kwong: all those loot bags from kids’ birthday party.

[00:27:53] Jennifer Chua: In episode one of this podcast, we had a conversation with Rebecca Saha from tiny toy company and she has a reloot bag. So she collects toy debris and toy garbage, and then creates these loot bags with upcycled toys. It’s Amazing.

So you’ve chucking your tree down and you’ve lovingly stored all of your ornaments that maybe you bought at the local Christmas fair. You’ve put those in your basement. You’re packing up your tree. So Every year we trim the branches off and put it in the backyard and we drill holes in it. So the bugs can live in it. And then in spring, we compost it and I’ve actually seen some like Christmas tree bits, put in the ravine, which I don’t know if it was a good idea, but I think it’s better than just checking it at the end of the season. Do you have any comments what to do after we’re done our trees?

[00:28:47] Romina Kwong: I think that’s a great idea. Again, I think it depends on where you live. Like I’m in the heart and core of Toronto where there isn’t a ton of greenery. And so I think, you need to pick and choose what works and what doesn’t. So for you, Jennifer, it works because where you live has a ravine. And so maybe yeah, you can leave it outside in your backyard. And for those people who don’t, then you can’t. I don’t have a huge, like thought on it. I think if you figure out what the waste is, if the city, like what they do with it, with their trees, like call them and ask them, or email them and see like, what is it that you do with it? And figuring out that I think is always good, a good option as well as like, where does it actually end up? I think, yeah, figuring out where it ends up in if there is an alternative. Maybe it is cutting it up and putting it out in the back, or maybe you use it as firewood. Or like kindling, it depends. When you’re rethinking things in events, it’s what do you care about and how can you reduce where it aligns.

[00:29:47] Jennifer Chua: I think city dwellers too. We have a different issue there. In that, for example, I’ve heard use potted trees, but then where are you going to plant them afterwards? If we live in this urban environment, we have to get a permit to plant a tree. Where are we going to plant it afterwards? And then if you live in a condo, for example, might be a better choice to go for an artificial tree, because once you then have to wrap the tree in plastic at the end and bring it down the elevator. Now you’re putting out a big, huge plastic bag every year as well. Maybe it would be worth going on Facebook marketplace or Kijiji or whatever, and finding one of those trees that someone’s getting rid of that’s artificial but still perfectly good for use.

[00:30:32] Romina Kwong: Or if you’re buying it new, you’re keeping it for that 15, 20 years and, keeping it the full life cycle. I think in my condo specifically, they don’t even allow, the natural trees like you have to go with artificial. So something to keep in mind as well. It’s just, yeah, you have to adapt to where it is you reside.

[00:30:50] Jennifer Chua: One of the things that I think of when I think of Christmas is that movie, Christmas vacation with the Griswold family and the dad completely blanketing the entire house in Christmas lights. And a lot of us have switched to led lights. But what do you think about holiday lighting? Is that impactful on the environment?

[00:31:10] Romina Kwong: Something that helps is putting a timer on those plugs or having it on a smart plug and where you can set a timer. So maybe it’s on for only a few hours at night, and then it shuts off. But it’s also, thinking about more of like a fire hazard too, is just don’t necessarily want to maybe leave it on all night. Now that most people already have led lights. It’s like, that’s great. And that’s a huge switch, just even like from an economic standpoint, like, does your electricity bill go up, significantly during the holidays? Make it a game. I like to make it a game to try and keep our bill as low as we can. And so figuring out ways. Either set it on a timer or maybe only during certain days, um, and figuring out a schedule that works

[00:31:53] Jennifer Chua: You mentioned before the guestimator, which I think is absolutely brilliant, but when it comes to holiday meals, I can just imagine the amount of waste that is generated in every home. Right. Do you have any tips on how to reduce our waste when it comes to actual food waste over the holidays?

[00:32:11] Romina Kwong: yeah. So figuring out how many people you’re actually serving using that tool as a good, just gives you a rough idea of how much you actually need. Not making the whole bag of potatoes. For example, maybe you make like half, I don’t know. If there are any leftovers that is actually consuming it, give it away. I know with my one aunt, whenever we gathered at her house, she puts all the leftover food in Tupperware containers and sends it home with every person. So first it’s figuring out, like, what are you going to make? And it starts really from the very beginning from the prep is at the grocery store. Do you need all of those things? How many people are actually coming over? Will they eat everything or are you just making it just so you have a nice spread for Instagram. So it’s rethinking that from the very beginning and then cooking and then storing the food properly as well.

So. Not leaving it out for hours and hours, and then it goes bad and then you can’t eat it. Another thing you can probably do is actually just donate the food. Can you pack it up? Can you give it to people in shelters or can you give it to, people who are unhoused, for example, in the city of Toronto, we have so many, unfortunately at this time? And so can you gift them things that from the leftovers or even on Christmas day Christmas eve.

[00:33:26] Jennifer Chua: So once you’ve packed up your tree and we’re looking forward to New Year’s Eve, I have some specific thoughts on balloons and glitter. And I was wondering if you could walk us through how sustainable balloons and glitter are, and maybe what our choices are. If we want to make better choices in that area.

[00:33:44] Romina Kwong: They aren’t they aren’t sustainable or green, especially the latex ones. Once you use them, that’s it like they have to go in the garbage, there is no other alternative. With the foil balloons. You can reuse them, you can release the air, reuse it. So I’ve actually had some friends, like message me, cause I’ve liked their photo on Instagram. They’re like, it’s been reused. Like we’ve reused these numbers and it’s like, okay, good to know. I’m not trying to guilt-trip you. But, it’s just funny that they know that people think of that. So, if you can use the foil options and you know, you’re, going to reuse them. I’ve seen people give them away or trade them on like buns or pals on Facebook. So those groups, where people are trading. Good for good. So you can look into that and specifically for like birthdays. Once you’re done with like those big celebrations, you can give them away and reuse them. So that’s one.

With the glitter, I would say try to just avoid like that. Those are tiny pieces of plastic, that we don’t necessarily think about. We just think it’s fun. I mean, I know for my mom and I’m sure other mothers don’t love the glitter clean up. So I think for both reasons, maybe not use them. I know there’s this company called botanical paperworks based out of Winnipeg and they do see paper and they have actually seed confetti. So they embed wildflower seeds into theirs. That is local to Canada and you can actually plant them afterwards. So I’ve had some friends, like plant them in like a small pot and just see them grow. They will, degrade over time and just in natural air and water or like natural elements. So I think that’s an option. Fireworks and sparklers are not the greatest. You can’t totally say no to everything. Just like, that’s my approach with it. It’s like you have to be a little bit realistic.

[00:35:32] Jennifer Chua: And what about biodegradable balloons? I’ve seen these everywhere. Can you talk a little bit about those?

[00:35:37] Romina Kwong: That is just a whole lot of greenwashing cause technically anything and everything is biodegradable. The headphones that we’re wearing right now are biodegradable. They will degrade over time. But that doesn’t mean that it’s good. Depending on what the object is or whatever it is, it can potentially leach chemicals back into the groundwater, into our earth.

And so it really depends on what they’re made of. So I’ve seen them as well. I think if you can avoid them, avoid them And use the foil ones, if you can reuse them for as long as possible, or just avoid them all together.

[00:36:10] Jennifer Chua: And then I guess choose champagne or sparkling wine from local producers. If you can.

[00:36:17] Romina Kwong: well, champagne is only technically champagne if it comes from the area of France, that champagne. So, maybe if you don’t live in that area, um, and you’re trying to stay local. Yeah. Find something that’s sparkling, that’s local. There’s a ton of wineries, especially in the greater Toronto area. If you’re close to Niagara, like there are so many wineries out there that use like wind power or solar panels. I think it’s biodynamic wines. I think that’s the word. Where they’re yeah. Trying to be as sustainable as possible in all aspects of the wine production process. And so looking that up as well, or just supporting local where it’s not travelling as far, especially in a glass bottle.

[00:36:57] Jennifer Chua: Our parties at home, why are making our events and our parties more sustainable, so important.

[00:37:03] Romina Kwong: It’s an aspect of life, right? Like we want to celebrate lives. You want to celebrate special occasions and anniversaries and if you’re going to be eco-friendly in every other aspect, why not events. Especially with the large-scale productions, like weddings and festivals, where it’s potentially only once in a lifetime or once a year, it has such a huge impact.

Like in those three days that a structure Is erected in, Yonge & Dundas square, or like another park. There’s so much that goes into it. And then so much that gets disposed of. And so that still has an impact because events are not going away. Especially now. I don’t want to say the pandemic is over, but it’s like coming slowly to an end? And we’re getting back to some sort of normalcy events are coming right back. There are so many events that are coming back in 2022 for in-person. You’ve seen a few of them now, a lot of like vendor markets are back and it makes me so hopeful and so happy, but it’s a part of life. And if you’re going to be eco-friendly in other parts, why not this as well?

[00:38:05] Jennifer Chua: And all of these swaps. All of these are like small tips. I can only imagine that these are also saving you financial costs. They’re saving you money as well. Right?

[00:38:16] Romina Kwong: Definitely. So again, not always. And it’s not necessarily a misconception because yes. Some things will cost more, but other things don’t. Like if you borrowed something, what is that costing you? Maybe a bit of gas to go get it, which you would have spent anyway to go to the store. So in some ways, it is saving you money. If you’re asking relatives to bring their own dishes to your house, that’s dishwashing you don’t have to do. You’re saving the waste that you’re tossing out into the trash and you’re not purchasing anything.

I think just resetting and reshifting or shifting your mindset is asking yourself, always, do you need this? Do you need to buy this first and foremost? And then can you get it Second hand, or can you borrow it or can you like rent it from somewhere? That way sort of like going into that circular economy where you’re reusing things and keeping things in use rather than using it and then disposing of it. And then think of like recycling and organics and compostable as sort of your last resort. Can you reduce first, if you can’t get it? Are there ways that you can get it where you’re borrowing it and renting it? So it’s secondhand?

[00:39:33] Jennifer Chua: so with all of this that you’ve learned from working in events and seeing how people are responding to these ideas, are you hopeful for the future?

[00:39:42] Romina Kwong: I am hopeful. I think the pandemic really made us all slow down and rethink how we are living. and I think that’s the most important part. And where it starts is we can’t continue living the way we’ve always been living. And this pandemic has really shown all of us that.

[00:39:59] Jennifer Chua: And we’re craving that connection and really wanting to connect with our loved ones in person again,

[00:40:04] Romina Kwong: Yeah,

[00:40:05] Jennifer Chua: making some of these swaps can only bring us to a brighter future.

[00:40:10] Romina Kwong: So we actually have a planet to live on and continue gathering together.

[00:40:13] Jennifer Chua: Organizing an in-person gathering this year? Visit ecofriendlyevents.ca/links to download a free eco-friendly party planning guide to help you reduce waste and your environmental impact over and over again. If you want to learn more about Romina and her holistic, accessible and realistic approach to environmental sustainability, visit ecofriendlyevents.ca. You can follow along with Romina and catch her live on Instagram, on her mission to help event organizers and businesses be eco-friendly on Facebook or Instagram at ecofriendly.events.

In today’s episode, we chat with Amy Welsman from Paume. We learn how Amy’s antibacterial hand gel was already in development when COVID changed everything. Why she was inspired to create a luxury sustainable and stylish hand hygiene brand, how Paume is addressing waste with their unique and chic refillable pumps, previously recycled materials and plastic neutral certification. We discover the potential risks of white labelling, why Amy has chosen sustainably produced, bio-degradable and plant-based ingredients, what she’s avoiding in her formulations that you’ll want to avoid too. And the challenges of launching during a pandemic when everyone was rushing a hand sanitizer to market.

If you want to learn more about Amy and her nourishing hand sanitizer that’s better for you and mindful of the planet. Visit mypaume.com. Want to show your hands some love? Paume’s refill kits offer all you need to sanitize at home and on the go. You can follow along with Amy and learn more about her sustainable and plastic neutral hand care brand on Facebook or Instagram 

Links from this episode

• Paume
• Knix.ca
• rePurpose Global – Go Plastic Neutral Today
• Health Canada warns about certain hand sanitizers that may pose health risks

Episode Transcript

 

[00:02:29] Jennifer Myers Chua: If we’ve learned anything from our experience in COVID times, it’s the importance of hand hygiene. I for one never carried hand sanitizer with me before the pandemic. but now after nearly two years of being reminded to wash our hands and being prompted to sanitize, when going into a public space, it has really become a way of life.

There are arguments for sure, against the over use of products like hand sanitizer, and it’s worth being cautious as there have been multiple recalls in the United States and Canada. We’ll discuss that in a bit. Many hand sanitizer brands had rushed to market. Once we all began clearing store shelves. And some of those hand sanitizers contain some toxic ingredients and methanol. And we’ve all come across those that are sticky or slimy or that smell terrible, and that are packaged in really flimsy containers, guaranteed to leak in our bags.

Paume however, is something else entirely. It cleans and sanitizes. Yes, but it smells incredible. It’s hydrating and the packaging is luxurious. And while disaster capitalists were taking advantage and creating hand sanitizers at the onset of COVID. Amy had already been working on Paume for over a year. And Paume is a hand care brand. They’ve launched with a sanitizer. But more products are on their way soon. They incorporate quality formulations plant-based ingredients. And sustainable packaging. I was introduced to Paume’s founder, Amy Welsman by Megan Takeda-Tully from Suppli. We featured Megan in episode seven and her brand is remarkable. So go back and take a listen if you haven’t heard her story yet. And I was immediately intrigued. Because Amy’s mission is to create really good products to care for our hands, which is something that we often neglect. And our hands, Amy points out, allow us to connect with the people around us.

 And Paume is coming up on the one-year anniversary of launch and launching during this time has definitely proven to be a challenge. Amy really has been the only person dedicated full-time to the brand. And she’s excited to start building a team now that she’s through with fundraising. And only a year into this, Paume is in retail. Amy has benefited from some influencer partnerships and impressive press. And she admits that it all has happened pretty quickly, leaving her to balance the little details in the day to day with the larger, more strategic and longterm all on her own. But Amy, isn’t exactly a stranger to building a successful brand from the ground up. In 2013, she left her corporate job in advertising to join a startup called Knix which is now a well-known women’s intimates brand.

[00:05:21] Amy Welsman: I jumped on board as the first hire to work for Joanna who had this incredible vision for an amazing product and an amazing brand. And I was so inspired and so excited to help grow that business with her. And I spent four years there doing precisely that and I learned so, so much through that experience. I think being in a startup environment from day one but not being at the helm was a really valuable experience because, I felt very invested in the success of the business, but I always knew that the end of the day, if things went sideways, I would be unscathed. Whereas now fast forward, I’m in the leadership position and it’s certainly a whole other level of pressure. But it was a wonderful experience on the last is to really learn how a product, how to take a product from an idea to market. And how to grow it and make it amazing. So that was that was incredible. And then I left actually, too, knowing that I wanted to start my own business at some point, I just didn’t have an idea.

[00:06:15] Jennifer Myers Chua: And when Amy decided to have a child, she decided to leave Knix because it felt like just a natural time for her to move on. And gain some experience in some other areas, while trying to figure out what was next for her. But Amy had this idea for Paume and set out to create a hand sanitizer. Having no idea what was about to happen to the category -or the world around us in only a few months time.

[00:06:41] Amy Welsman: It was actually through the experience of being a new mom that the idea for Paume came to me. It all started. As I became just so aware of hand hygiene having a baby, I think a lot of women and parents in general can relate to this suddenly, or you want to just bubble wrap your world to protect this thing. And I had sanitizer all over my house and I was changing dirty diapers and, not having anything to clean my hands in that precise moment, not necessarily having the time to go like wash my hands with soap and water. So I was using sanitizer a lot. And through that experience, I really saw that. There was a lot to be improved upon in that category. And that’s where the idea started and life before it was pretty quiet during that middle year, middle a couple years, and then sort of chaos ensued.

[00:07:25] Jennifer Myers Chua: Why are using natural products or environmental responsibility or all of these things that you’ve touched on a little bit with your brand. Why is this so personally important to you? Like, has there been an event in your life that has shaped how you see the world this way?

[00:07:39] Amy Welsman: I would say that I’ve always been a conscious consumer. Obviously, like we all go for convenience and I’m, nobody’s perfect by any means, but it’s always been a consideration for me as I choose a product like, and I’m really thoughtful about the amount of waste that we produce just as a household on a micro level. Like I’m just very conscious of how much waste we all produce. I knew that if I wanted to create a product based business, waste was going to be a by-product of that no matter what. So I think it was really important for me that I’d be really thoughtful in the materials that we choose and the sort of approach to our packaging. And of course, the ingredients that we choose. So trying to avoid. you know, Microplastics and all of the things that have really defined the beauty industry for so long. And now suddenly there’s been, thankfully, this huge shift within the industry towards more sustainable packaging, better quality ingredients that are more natural and more friendly in our water systems and is better for our skin in general.

So it was always a top consideration for me, I would say It’s not my number one. I think we have three buckets. The first being the quality and efficacy, I want to create products that work and that actually do what they’re supposed to do. So, I always knew though, there’d be ethyl alcohol in it, which is non-toxic and, obviously then the natural alternative to the chemical agent that is often using sanitizer But I also want it to be really thoughtful about like the moisturizers and like, are they going to be plant-based and how can we find efficacy there too? So that was also really important. I wanted a product that actually moisturized. So while aloe is a great agent for that, it’s very standard in the industry and not particularly efficacious, we’ve added in an extra element of hydration into our sanitizer product. Another plant-based ingredient And it just enhances that.

Number two materials that we’re using. So we’re trying to use previously recycled plastic as much as we can. And also, for us, I would say refilling is our primary sustainability mission. So as while our materials are thoughtful, we’re also really encouraging our customers to buy our dispensers just once, like by your travel. By your home pump and then continue to refill. Now there are limitations with hand sanitizer, unfortunately, there are no biodegradable packaging options. When I started this, I was like, I want it to be all biodegradable. And I had this like crazy vision. And then of course you learned very quickly well, with alcohol, you need a plastic, you need foil. you need things like this. We tried to be as thoughtful as we could and we don’t claim to be perfect. And, I, we just have a, sort of a mission that like every year we’re going to evolve as new packaging becomes available to us as well, because everything is evolving so quickly in the packaging industry. So that’s one of our key goals is to evolve as materials, improve.

And then I would say lastly, I think just to enhance that mission, we have partnered with an organization called repurpose global which has been an incredible partner in what they do really is they work with brands that produce products and they essentially calculate what their plastic footprint is by using weight metrics. Basically, they do a full audit of your business, how much plastic. The materials do we order and how, how much you selling and like, what’s your yearly sort of capacity and production. And they then create a system where they create an offset. So they look at how much you’re producing and then they say, okay, to offset.

That will require a donation of X and that those funds will go towards our various global projects that they have. They have about 20 or 30. They partner you with one in particular, you pick a partner where we’re partnered in a community in Indonesia. Plastic rolls up on the beach all the time. It’s a real problem because they’re in that thoroughfare from Asia to north America, where plastic just piles up and piles up. So they have built infrastructure in that local community. They’ve hired local people. There’s a real plastic cleanup effort and that waste is removed and then repurposed recycled and they help with infrastructure there. So it’s a real community initiative and your funds go directly to that. And through that, your impact is then offsetted. So it’s just an added layer to what we’re trying to do on a more granular level, which is like being thoughtful about materials and really encouraging refilling. Then we have this added layer, so I think we can always be improved and we’re always going to continue doing that.

 but you know, a lot of it too is just the packaging industry. They’re just now starting to really make this a priority. Like a lot around single use. And there’s been a real ban on single use sampling, but now. there are these companies that are making biodegradable options. And it’s really exciting. So there’s lots. I’m really excited about to explore, but that’s where we are at the moment.

[00:12:22] Jennifer Myers Chua: Was there ever a time in your life where you thought like I’m going to create something and I’m going to use something to create change? I’m just wondering if you fell into this or if this was always a part of you, like little Amy did little Amy have a fire inside?

[00:12:35] Amy Welsman: It’s not something that, I woke up one day is like an eight-year-old and thought, though, it’s funny now that I look back, I’m like doing some reflecting in the moment, but I was very interested as a young child, always been very into nature and animals, certainly something my parents really fostered in me.

And my parents have always been, real. I would say like environmentally conscious people. So a lot of my like natural habits and thoughts around waste production and how I purchase and, packaging and all that stuff has stemmed from them. But I wouldn’t say at when I was a kid that I had lofty dreams of doing something like this, it was a real evolution. I went from being very interested in like, Actually like fashion and advertising and marketing. And then when I went to Knix that’s when I got exposed that startup world. And then through this, I never imagined myself starting like a beauty company. Like it was just something that sort of just evolved. And it’s funny how life does that. But I wish I could say it was like a born mission, but no more just sort of inspiration from my daily life and then life just throwing stuff at me. I guess.

[00:13:36] Jennifer Myers Chua: Can you tell me a little bit more about Paume and the system and what that would look like in your home?

[00:13:41] Amy Welsman: As of now we are a single SKU brand or up until this point, and I’ll talk about sort of what the future holds, but we launched with our hero product and that was an antibacterial hand gel. Or hand sanitizer, we just like to call it something a bit different. But it’s all the same thing.

As I said, the inspiration came to me as a new mom in 2019. So this was before the pandemic. And before this category completely changed and evolved and grew and became super crowded. It’s definitely been a challenge and a, a bit of a mental game to sort of overcome. What’s happening around me. I did not launch into the category that existed in 2019. But from day one, I always knew I wanted to create a product that really worked, but also smelled really good and felt really good on your hands. I was so sick and tired of what I was getting at the drug store and how unpleasant it was. And I think now everybody can relate to that experience.

So from the formula perspective, it is a truly different experience. It smells amazing. We use a blend of five essential oils, which create this like woodsy, herbacious, like citrusy scent. And it’s a very indulgent, a lot of our customers say like how much they love the scent. And we use plant-based emollients that really do hydrate your skin. So when you put it on, you don’t you actually feel this like smooth softness which is really different from what we’re all used to. So I think that’s really important to communicate. It’s hard, over the airwaves rather than in person, you have to try it, but that’s the best I can do.

From a packaging perspective. I wanted from day one to do something very design driven. I love design. I love interior design and art, and I’m just really into beautiful things. And I wanted this to be beautiful, which was so different from at the time what we were envisioned as sanitizer. It was basically a clear bottle that sits on your counter and it’s jelly and weird and sticky and gross. And. I want it to make something beautiful. We make this cool travel bottle, which is 90 milliliters. You can take it on an airplane, throw it in your purse and it has this twist nozzle on it, which is totally unique. Most people don’t know that it’s hand sanitizer when they see it, which was my goal at first was just to really like flip it on its head. And then we’ve designed from scratch this beautiful in-home pump because as I was speaking to earlier, I had it in my house to offer guests when they came to see the baby.

And then I also had it on my change table and I thought, oh, that’s cool. Like new moms, they’re changing diapers. They have like poop all over their hands for lack of a better word. And they, they need something immediate to sort at least feel clean. That was the inspiration for the home pump.

 Little did I know that the pandemic was going to make us all have it all over house. It’s so funny when I think about it. But anyway, so we’ve designed this beautiful pump and the whole idea is that you refill them both, so you don’t need to throw them out. The travel bottle was made a previously recycled plastic. 65% and then, yeah, it’s always refillable and we have these refill bags, which use 60%, less plastic than a bottle. And they fill your travel bottle five times or your pump twice. So you get a ton of value out of that bag. I think people, it’s a bit of a sticker shock. I think we’re used to spending very little on this product. When you see $38 Canadian for a bag, you’re like, oh my gosh, It’s hand sanitizer, almost $40, but. It actually fills your dispensers, like multiple times, like that bag is going to last you a couple of months. So it’s actually a lot of value. But that’s a system.

 And now it’s really exciting. We’re moving into hand care is a broader category. I think it’s really inspired me to look beyond just sanitizer. I think this will always be our hero product and like our core. SKU I should say, but we’re really, we’re looking to expand. So we’re going to be coming out with a probiotic, hand cream again, the whole concept being that we’re sanitizing alot we’re cleaning our hands a lot. So to have something that’s going to naturally restore your skin’s natural microbiome while also being hydrating and smelling really good and looking really nice, essentially.

And then we have an Exfoliating hand wash as well or hand cleanser that we’re coming out with as well later this year. Again, the same concept, refillable bottles, you can use your Paume pump if you wish in your bathroom or in your kitchen. The pump is like our core symbol and then, lots of products will stem from there, but I’m excited to get into hand care. I think there aren’t a lot of brands that are really trying to own that. We have the Aesop and we have various body care brands that happen to have a hand cream or happened to have a soap. But we’re really gonna lean into just hand care and it’s synonymous with our name.

[00:18:01] Jennifer Myers Chua: So when you did decide to go down the route and create a hand sanitizer, and you began to look at how that’s made and conventional hand sanitizing products, did you find anything surprising?

[00:18:13] Amy Welsman: Yes. First of all, just to put it into context, I, when this idea came to me, I knew nothing about any, I knew nothing about how to get a product made for a beauty product or, personal care product, literally nothing. I was like Googling manufacturers like I was so green. So I learned a lot very quickly. And the most surprising thing I think at first was I talked to a lot of manufacturers who right away were like, oh, great. You want to make a hand sanitizer? We’ve got, we got lots of formulas in house. You can white-label them, we can be in market in three months. It was like very much like à la carte. Here’s a menu. And that was really tempting because by the time I had moved into the production phase, The beginnings of this phase the pandemic was happening and I felt this real pressure that like we needed to get going and get to market quickly because there was this like arms race happening, but that was balanced with my, staying true to that initial idea, which is, I don’t want to create a generic product. That’s not the purpose here. Like I do want to create something really unique in the formula. Probably the most important thing next to packaging. So I really was adamant. I said, no, we were like, we got to make a formula from scratch. Here’s my vision. This is what I want. And they’re like, oh, okay.

But you realize it’s going to be like four months. And then it’s going to be two months of, health, Canada, and FDA approvals. It’s like, it’s gonna be a long road. I’m like it is what it is. And I’m so glad because it was so tempting. And there were days where I was like, oh, what am I doing with this will be cheaper.

This will be faster. Like. Maybe I’m making a mistake here, but when I tried that product for the first time that we made I was like, oh, this was so worth the wait and so worth the pain. And now that we’re in market even more because I do think this last year there’ve been a lot of brands. That have come to market that made beautiful packaging and they’re marketed beautifully. But the product really is just, if you look at the ingredients, it really is like some version of Purell in a bottle packaged beautifully. And I do think that like, where we really stand out is not only in our packaging, but also in our formula. Like that’s what people really love. I’m really glad that we took that time, but it was a bit painful. Not going to lie. It wasn’t easy.

[00:20:23] Jennifer Myers Chua: So you’ve made the choice to involve yourself with a number of organizations that give back, including repurpose global. Can you speak a little bit more to what repurpose global is and what that partnership means?

[00:20:36] Amy Welsman: Repurpose global is a, a relatively new organization. I think that they’ve been around for four or five years and their purpose really is to help brands like us to minimize their plastic footprint and find other ways beyond, you know, the choices they make in their own supply chains to give back help global communities, but also really look and focus on plastic waste. Their whole philosophy is plastic is actually a very efficient, low carbon material to use. And if it’s managed properly in the whole waste chain and it doesn’t end up in a landfill and it’s repurposed and recycled. It actually is probably one of the best more eco-friendly materials. It’s light. It doesn’t weigh a lot. It’s funny, we explored a lot of different materials there’s a real trend now towards aluminum. A lot of brands, want to be plastic free. That’s their mission that they’ve chosen. That I totally respect, but with aluminum comes, other things that You don’t always think of as a consumer because you’re not like living and breathing like I am, but if you do a little bit more research, aluminum tends to be a heavier carbon emitter. When you make aluminum. Also it’s much heavier. So it’s heavier to ship, which then creates, more waste when you’re shipping. Like all of these things, it’s not necessarily about the actual physical product. You have to look at the whole chain of how it gets made. What’s great about aluminum is it’s very recyclable. It’s easy. We can throw it in our bin. Plastic is complicated, one thing I’ve learned a lot about is just the recycling system. I’ve become a little bit jaded to be honest about what is really recyclable and what makes something not recyclable, like a sticker, for example, or various, mixing of materials. And I’ve learned so much, which has been a great thing, but also a disappointing thing, because I believe. I was very naive before basically, but my original point is repurpose really takes a close look at plastic and doesn’t necessarily want to discourage brands from using it. They just want to help brands use it in a more responsible and eco-friendly way.

So they really do calculate, like they do a serious audit. And you pay a membership fee, so you pay a yearly fee and they do an audit of your plastic production. And they look at everything, not just your immediate packaging, but your shipping materials. For example, like these are little things I . Always say can make such a difference. Like if, for brands out there who are already established and who want to become more sustainable in their supply chains. It’s sometimes it can be a little thing like tape, for example, rather than have your warehouse just use a miles of plastic tape, spend the money, order the gum tape, the biodegradable tape.

We work with an amazing partner called no issue and they make biodegradable tissue, paper, and tapes and stickers. So you can brand and have this beautiful unboxing experience but also not compromise. With the environmental impact. So anyway, tape huge, like they look at that, so repurpose will look, okay. What kind of tape are you using? Oh, cause that contributes to your plastic footprint. And they really do a deep audit and of course they do. Every quarter, actually, because obviously a brand will hopefully grow within a quarter and then that footprint will change. And they also look at PCR content, previously, recycled materials. Are there any in your product?

And they look at reusability. In this bottle, the single bottle is your customer buying that once and then throwing it away or are they reusing it? What’s the life cycle of that. So they look at all this stuff, they have all these metrics and they determine what your offset cost is to offset what you produce. And you have different levels too you can be a plastic neutral brand, which is what we are, because right now we’re new and we can’t really afford the next level, which the next level ultimately is to be plastic, negative, where you actually like donate more. So there’s actually more plastic in the environment being collected and repurposed than what we’re producing. That’s the goal. Right now we’re baby steps. They’re really incredible. And they have tons of resources and like every partner brand has a micro-site on their website. That really is transparent. Like, I think that’s the key too.

There’s been a lot of organizations, give back organizations, that partner with e-commerce brands carbon neutral, all of these things. And it’s amazing what’s out there now, but I think because of the volume. Of these organizations, there’s a lack of transparency out there. I think we’re just inundated with this hate to say greenwashing, it is a bit like, 1% and give back, and this is the standard cost of entry now. So everyone sees it with all the brands. But I think like if you can be really transparent in what those dollars are doing and what this partnership achieves it just adds more legitimacy.

They’re so great at applying, providing all those tools for you to really educate your customer of like, where is that percentage going? So they’ve been a really great partner and I’m excited to grow with them as we grow and it does make me feel a little bit better about our footprint, because to be honest, plastic really does make sense for us. And aluminum just, I really tried to figure out other materials. And because, also, sanitizers so limiting because of its alcohol content, we really had a very limited number of options of the types of materials we could use. So we settled on it. We committed, but now we’re trying to find ways, to, to offset.

[00:25:48] Jennifer Myers Chua: There’s been a lot of recalls I’m just wondering if you have anything to comment on the recalls of hand sanitizer.

[00:25:55] Amy Welsman: First of all, I have certainly kept a very close attention to them though. I will say that I think a lot of the brands that were having issues were there’s two things that were happening. Health Canada was constantly changing rules and regulations, I think prior to the pandemic this product category was fairly shallow and it’s regulatory.

Like, I’m not sure that they had really had an opportunity to see different circumstances and see different versions of formulas. Like it was a pretty standard, easy product that just existed. And the, I think the regulation around it was pretty light. I would say I’m not an expert. I just, this is my sort of thesis. Then what happened during the pandemic was suddenly the demand was so strong. That brands, we’re making products from everywhere and rushing to market and just needing to get people just needed sanitizer in their hand. So there was a lot of rushing happening, a lot of cutting corners, things being made abroad that, maybe under circumstances that weren’t compliant, like. So I think there were some brands that fell victim to to the rush and that’s unfortunate. I also think. As I said, health, Canada, I think just changed their rules are like, oh wait, no, that was made, oh, that actually can’t be made for whatever reason. This is like toxic levels. And then people had to go back to the drawing board and there were recalls.

So I think there was a combination of just, it was a bit of wild west for awhile. And because the product was in such high demand. It, that was the casualty of it. I think now the regulations have been much more like clear and tighter, and I think now brands know how to follow, because I know for us, I engaged with the regulatory agency, like from day one, because I knew I wanted to sell this in Canada, in the U S and I wanted to do it by the book. Like, and if it took longer, it would take longer. You just don’t want to be in a situation where you’re being recalled. And they really held my hand throughout the whole process. And every time I got a recall alert, or saw an article on that, I trust me. I had friends emailing me every day, being like, have you seen this?

Or investors are like, you’re not using this. Are you, it was like it was a, there was a period of time where I was getting inundated and I’d constantly just feed it off to my agency. Are we okay here? Like, can you give me some peace of mind? We really did follow the rules, but I do think it’s, it was a bit crazy for a while and I think that’s calmed down a little bit. It just proves that if you’re going to make a product that goes on people’s bodies, like you really have to work with the right regulatory partners and sometimes it’s as simple as like a mislabel or something, and it’s like, it can be detrimental, hugely detrimental to your business.

[00:28:24] Jennifer Myers Chua: Now that we are sending all of our kids to school with hand sanitizers, like attached to their backpacks. It worries me that health Canada maybe is discovering toxins in our hand, sanitizing products.

[00:28:39] Amy Welsman: Yeah, I think I think what I would recommend people shy away from as any sanitizer that claims to be alcohol free. What that means is it’s using a chemical agent, which is health, Canada approved, but it’s still, if you’re really someone who doesn’t want to be putting chemicals on their children’s or on their own bodies.

 It’s funny. It’s like the opposite of what you think is in so many other categories, people are like, Ooh, it’s alcohol free. That’s a really good thing. For some reason we’re conditioned to think like alcohol free is really good in cosmetics in general. And it’s funny in this, the alcohol version of sanitizer is actually the more natural version than the alternative. And it’s funny because it smells harsher and you definitely like. It doesn’t smell like it would be more natural cause it has that alcohol scent. But the alternative, scent free, alcohol free, means there’s a chemical agent in there. I’ve always been wary of that. Everyone has their own personal choice, but we chose to use alcohol because it actually is the more natural way to go.

[00:29:38] Jennifer Myers Chua: I think most people know that there’s alcohol in hand sanitizer, but I think as just a regular person who may be using it, after I go grocery shopping or whatnot nowadays, I don’t think we think about what else may be in hand sanitizer. You’re silicone free, paraben-free free of artificial fragrance, cruelty-free, I was wondering if you could speak to some of those choices that you made, that maybe we are completely unaware that we are putting these things on our bodies, because we have no idea what’s in hand sanitizer in the first place.

[00:30:13] Amy Welsman: There’s a real range, I would say. I think in your basic drug store, it’s mostly alcohol with some sort of blending agent, which is often a chemical with aloe and then artificial fragrance. And there’s nothing, wrong with these chemicals. They’re all, Approved and regulated and like, but I think for the conscious shopper, that’s really trying to minimize, it’s not about that one product that you’re using that has, parabens in it. It’s the culmination and the combination of like all the products you’re using in your medicine cabinet, it’s like, okay, what am I putting on my face? What am I using on my hands what am I using on my body? What am I using my hair? And I think it’s the combination of that. But I think.

As we get into more premium products in the beauty industry, silicone is like, and it’s definitely on its way out, thankfully, that was a real hot ingredient for awhile because basically you put it on your hand and it would have this feeling of just, it was so smooth and you’d be like, oh my gosh, like my skin feels amazing. And really it’s just a plastic that’s sitting on the surface. Again, giving you this like gummy feeling. And I just knew that if I was going to, make something that was really going to moisturize and really going to feel good we had to do it in such a way that used natural ingredients, but also had effectiveness, but also did avoid, those no-no ingredients.

And I was really also. Mindful of certain retailers. So like now, I there are a bunch of retailers out there that will not take products that have certain ingredients and they have very strict guidelines. And I remember as I was formulating our new products and this one, I was constantly checking their lists because I always knew I really want to partner with these guys. They match our philosophy. Like there are these incredible partners. And luckily we’re actually launching with credo in the U S and the detox market in Canada in the U S and next month. But again, like to get into these retailers, you really have to jump through hoops in a way to show that, your products, you meet their guidelines. And it’s something that’s a big advice for people who want to bring brands, bring products to market and are wanting to be really thoughtful about their ingredients. Like look on those lists. Educate yourself. Because when you’re working with a lab in a formulator, they’ll throw you stuff, oh, we love this we use it in this other product that we manufacture. We happen to have a ton of it here. Why don’t you use this? It’s great.

And you have to be the one to say, and I was so naive in the beginning. Like, I didn’t know anything. I would have said yes to probably anything, but I was like, wait, no, I’ve got to make sure that I’m like taking these boxes. And I was empowered by that knowledge. And I was say, you know what? We actually can’t use that because this is against this and I want to be able to work with them. That’s big advice for people who were starting fresh and working with formulators, with no experience, like really educate yourself and understand what you’re putting in your products, because that’s not necessarily their job. They just want to create a good product that you can afford. You have to keep on them for, certain ingredients and all of that.

[00:33:09 Jennifer Myers Chua: I think that’s the reason that I’m really skeptical personally about private labeling is that people are happy to effectively purchase an already created something. It doesn’t have to be a personal care product. It can be anything. And they really have no idea what went into making that product. What’s really in it. Because it is advantageous for the person who’s manufacturing it to use what they already have. To use the knowledge they already have, regardless of if that aligns with the brand’s values.

[00:33:43] Amy Welsman: We’ve had some manufacturing challenges and we’ve had to move partners actually a couple of times, mainly around actually just the filling of our packaging. We have unique packaging. spout coaches are a relatively new thing out there and because we’re also sanitizer, which means we’re considered a hazmat like dangerous, good crazily enough cause we have alcohol in it. It’s very complicated. And anyway, we’ve had to move a few times and I’ve had to bring formulas to new fillers and you can tell right away their resistance, like, oh, it has that ingredient. Like, we don’t really carry that ingredient. We’re going to have to now buy it. And it’s like, you can see if you lift up the curtain, like, every manufacturer and filler has like their sort of standard list of ingredients they like to use. So you have to kinda like dig at them a little bit and push them to look beyond that, those limitations, if you really want to create something super unique. And they’ll, they come around and they’re like, okay. And they make it work. But it is it’s a good thing to know as you go into it that if you want to create something truly different, like you got to push for it and it’s not as easy as it may appear.

[00:34:47] Jennifer Myers Chua: Now that we are somewhat returning to normal, where are you at and how does this unique experience of the last 18 months influence how you’re shaping the next phase of growing Paume?

[00:34:59] Amy Welsman: I would say that the pandemic was. both a gift and also a curse. I think many people would agree with that. Overall, it was a terrible thing I should say, but from on a micro selfish level, it was the push I needed to take this business to the next level. This was really an idea in my head for a year and a business plan out of PowerPoint. And then when I saw what was happening to this category as the result of the pandemic, that really pushed me to move full steam ahead. I guess that’s a silver lining. But it also presented a lot of challenges with on many levels. We were, we didn’t have any childcare. I had a one-year-old when the pandemic started, she’s now two and a half. It’s crazy. And we didn’t have help. We were on lockdown with her and my husband and I both worked and I was building this business and he was working and it was really challenging. Luckily we’re out of that phase that was a six month, very intense period.

So that was, really a part of that journey. And I would say that another gift I suppose, of the pandemic was that it really put a spotlight on this category for better or for worse. I think, it for definitely for better, I would say, I mean it improved. I think there’s a lot of great new products in the market. It’s a category that. Is really important. I think we’ve all discovered that hand hygiene is not just a, a nice to have it as essential to making our society work. We all need to be clean and we have a responsibility to ourselves and to our families and our loved ones and our community to, be careful and be mindful of our hygiene habits.

So I think sanitizer plays a big role in that. So I think that’s a really positive thing to come out of all this. Hopefully they’ll just be less cold and less flus and hopefully COVID will go away eventually. And as far as the future I do feel like I’ve come out of this. I have, there’s been a turning point. For me personally, and for this business, for all of us. I think we’re all feeling this like renewed sense of hope that life is going to return to normal at some point. It’s now like within our grasp. And with that has come a real hope that I have in this business. And I think I spoke to this earlier. Moving away from a single SKU and moving into like a broader category and what the possibilities are for that. And I think also raising money really opened my eyes to that. Cause I had a lot of investors saying or potential investors saying, we love sanitizer. It’s great. But like, what are you going to do to make this business like blow it up, like in a good way. And I had to really be thoughtful about our product pipeline and what that looks like. And what does the next five years look like and where do we see this brand growing? And I think that was really exciting. And it ties nicely with this like societal renewal of hope in the future.

So it’s funny how it’s been. It’s like it originated in the pandemic. By pulling the trigger and then now as we’re coming toward the end, it’s like this, change in vision in this broadening of our vision. Yeah, that’s my, my, an analysis of the last year and what’s to come.

[00:37:52] Jennifer Myers Chua: I was going to ask you more about hope, but you just brought it up, So with all that you’ve learned now about our dependence on plastic and some of the items that we’re having in our personal care products, which are maybe not as good for us as we originally thought. I’m just wondering if you’ve seen enough of a positive shift in society? And I want to know how hopeful you are for the future.

[00:38:17] Amy Welsman: Oh, gosh. Okay. I’m definitely hopeful. I think when I look at the industry that I’m now finding myself in there’s a lot of hope there. I’m seeing a lot of brands, being forced really by consumer demand, to change their habits and to improve their environmental policies and their packaging.

And, even a brand like Caudalie that announced last year that it’s going to be doing this huge overhaul in its supply chain and packaging, and like that for a brand that established to really incorporate sustainability as like a primary mission is amazing because I know what it takes even just as a small brand to make a change is complicated enough. But to take an established brand with millions of customers to, to make that change. It’s a huge undertaking. And it’s the reason why they said it would take four years, which is fine. What take all the take the time you need. Obviously like don’t take too long, but you know, that gives me a lot of hope.

I think the beauty industry specifically, which is a huge waste producer is making these changes and that, that gives me a lot of hope. And I think also in like the food industry and there’s a lot, to me, the worst culprit is like the, is the grocery store. Not to get all preachy, but I just like all of these single use, especially having kids, I think a lot of mothers can relate to this and fathers who shop for convenient snacks for their kids. And it’s all like, the liquid yogurts in the plastic bottle and it’s thrown out. And from what I’ve learned about recycling, so few of these materials are actually recyclable. You throw them in your recycling bin, but they’re really not getting recycled, not to like shock anyone, but it’s really a depressing thing when you really learn about that industry.

So there’s areas where I don’t have hope because it’s going to take so long, but, and then I also see like the steps we’re taking. So it’s a balance of like hope and a tiny bit of despair. I think if everyone on an individual level, you don’t need to like, go become like a plastic free household or do something dramatic. You can liken this to so many other behavioral changes, it’s a slow evolution and a lifestyle change. That’s not too overwhelming to take on. Like, you don’t have to go change the world necessarily, but just look at your daily habits and make those little tweaks. And it’s amazing the impact you’ll have.   I always talk about the tape thing. It’s like just don’t use plastic tape if you’re an e-com brand, like use another alternative. It’s those little things that can make a big difference. And I hate to get preachy. I do think that like, we’re, none of us are perfect. I certainly am not, I’m not claiming that, but what I do try to do is like, just make those little changes every day in my habits.

I think having been through the Knix experience in those early days, and now obviously it’s such a huge success story and so amazing. I think often in society, we tend to only see the success. We don’t often see the failures because by nature of social media, no one’s really putting out there when maybe they’re having a bad month, or sales are really bad or, challenges are happening. You don’t get to really see that behind the curtain. It’s all the public facing things that you see. And I know for me, I really struggle. I look at other brands on social media. I’m like, oh, they’re just killing it. I think it’s really important that you have to regulate that and understand that what is only the success and you don’t see the work and all the blood and the sweat and the tears that go into making that success. And I just know that it’s really, it’s a really hard thing to launch a business and I never liked to sugar coat it. I. I think that’s unfair to do to people. Because again, I do think there’s this idea out there, by what we see on social media that like being an entrepreneur and a founder is this like kick ass, like amazing thing. Founders have become, to a certain degree, like new celebrities in a way. They have amazing success and we all like admire them for it, but they don’t people don’t always talk about how hard it is in the beginning and just surviving is hard enough. And being able to just take day by day and not let the outside noise affect you. And know that, you have bad days, bad months. Bad years. And if you persevere and stick a stick around long enough, typically like good things do end up happening. I think a lot of it is about survival. Like, can you survive those first three years? And if you can then. I think the possibilities are there, you’ve got to really have this mental stamina and this determination and this resiliency that not everyone has, and that’s fine. I don’t know. I often say like, I feel like on some level I hate myself, it’s like, what am I, why am I doing this to myself? But then the winds are really high and it’s like a drug, but yeah, a lot of it is a mindset as well as as an entrepreneur in the hot seat.

 

In today’s episode, we chat with Alain Menard from The Green Beaver Company. We explore why Alain, a microbiologist, and his wife Karen, a biochemist, left their careers in the pharmaceutical and pesticide industries after deciding to start a family and being sidelined by a surprising diagnosis. We do a deep dive into natural and conventional sunscreens, antiperspirants and toothpaste, learn what the differences are, learn why there have been recalls and what the health impacts of our choices may be. And discover why after 20 years of revolutionizing the industry and engaging with his customers, Alain feels so hopeful for our future.

If you want to Learn more about Alain and his Certified Organic & Cruelty-free Personal Care Products visit https://greenbeaver.com.  Looking to try Alain’s revolutionary antiperspirant or toothpaste that uses the benefits of science? You can find both in retailers across Canada. You can follow along with Alain on his mission to inspire a natural way of life in a more sustainable world on Facebook  or Instagram

Links from this episode

• Allegations Banana Boat sunscreen causes burns continue to pour in to Health Canada
• Hawai‘i Senate Bill Bans Harmful Sunscreen Chemicals
• Lavender Products Associated With Premature Thelarche and Prepubertal Gynecomastia: Case Reports and Endocrine-Disrupting Chemical Activities

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Myers Chua: If you’re a user of antiperspirants take a look and see if yours has a warning label. If you bought it at the drug store, chances are it has one. With a warning about kidney disease. We’ll go into why that’s there in a bit, we’ll also go into antiperspirants and aluminum. This is something you might’ve heard of. And there has been studies showing aluminum in the brains of patients with Alzheimer’s. It’s been linked to cancer, and it’s a reason that a lot of people have switched their deodorants. Natural deodorants are kind of the gateway into natural personal care.

And a lot of us know there may be things in our household products that we rather avoid. But natural products do not always work like we expect them to. And Alain and his team at The Green Beaver Company have been formulating products backed by a tremendous amount of scientific research. So while natural products are often unregulated, The Green Beaver Company is backed by science, certified with ECOCERT and working closely with health Canada to create new and truly innovative products that work as good as conventional without causing harm.

And over the last 20 years, Alain has seen a dramatic shift in consumer behavior. People are asking questions. They are looking for natural alternatives and Alain has been a huge part of this shift. He’s incredibly influential. Many of green Beaver’s products were first to market in their category, and ever advocates, the green beaver company has been fighting for transparency and regulation in the industry and strives to use the cleanest ingredients sourced locally.

Alain lives in Hawkesbury, Ontario near the Quebec, Ontario border. And its where nearly 20 years ago that he started the green beaver company with his wife karen. Before green beaver, Alain was a microbiologist. Karen was a biochemist working in pesticides. Alain had gotten into microbiology because of the science of food. Making cheese, beer, that kind of stuff. And afterwards he took this education into pharmaceuticals, working with antibiotics. He was spending his days in hospitals, meeting with doctors and pharmacists telling him about new antibiotic products, how they worked, what the effectiveness was. And Karen was also a medical liaison working with the latest studies presenting data to healthcare professionals. And after a while, things began to change because they began to change. They both felt compelled to do something else.

See, they had begun to talk about starting a family, trying to decide if they were ready, if it was the right time, trying to figure out where they could put a nursery. But once Karen really started considering having a child, she began to look into the chemicals they were using in their home because she was picturing her child crawling across a floor washed with conventional cleaners and putting their baby hands in their mouth. Was she okay with that? With what she knew about chemicals? So Alain and Karen began to take a hard look at everything within their home cleaning products, personal care. And it was overwhelming.

Alain Ménard : Everything is like artificial fragrance and chemical, this for washing clothes, dish washing soap. You name it, then you start getting into, well, what exactly is in my shampoo or my antiperspirant, then it gets to be like, Yeah, we were going a little bit bonkers with this, and of course. with both of our science background, I mean, and with a bit of more research. We kind of figured out what all these products had in him and this, and then you start thinking, this is our nest we live here, we breathe here, we eat here, you’re, you’re breathing the air. You’re like, how Can it be every week importing chemicals from the outside to bring in to the inside and to spray it where I’m going to breathe, eat, sleep, then it’s like, yeah, why do we do that? How did we get here? How did society did we get to do that? How did we get to like, figure out, we can, it increased our yield of a crop by 30% by putting chemicals on it. The insecticides. Yeah. There’ll be some left. We’ll be eating a little, bit of it, but it’s not the end of the world. We’ll get, be getting 30% more yield. Oh my God. And I feel like, If you look back 19 years ago when it was when we first introduced our product, the world has changed. There’s a lot more knowledge about everything that’s going on about, pollution and climate change and everything.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Karen was really grappling with her identity as a biochemist. She was working in pesticides during the day. And then purging her home of chemicals on nights and weekends. It was like leading a double life and it was beginning to eat at her, so much so, she couldn’t do it anymore and she quit.

And by that time already, a portion of the kitchen counter was covered in mixers and beakers and equipment. And the two began to dabble in making products as a hobby. Something for Karen to focus on now that she was unemployed. An avid cook. She loved it. Cause making face cream is similar to making mayonnaise, Alain points out, they are both emulsions. And back in those days, there were not very many natural products available. The health food stores had a small selection, but natural products were much more difficult to find. So Alain began to experiment too thinking he’d use his expertise to help formulate products on evenings and weekends. And see where this leads to, but he had no plans on quitting his job.

Alain Ménard : And by that time, oh boy, I was changed. It was there wasn’t any more chemicals in the house and making it a lot of our own stuff and went organic. And as much as we could, it’s be honest, it’s because in those days it wasn’t as much available as today. And yeah, we got into gardening. I remember that had our first garden around that time.

Jennifer Myers Chua: But soon afterwards, Alain got a call. That changed everything.

Alain Ménard : So then I got a call from my sister. My oldest nephew, Miguel was three years old and the twin boys a year and a half. So three boys under the age of. Equates to very busy, tired. And anyway, she was very upset. Then she sadly announced to me that she had just been diagnosed with very advanced breast cancer. And this is at 32 years old, i mean come on. And I remember having discussions with Karen. Yeah. All these chemicals it starts, from within our house, which we have control of. We’re self polluting ourselves. People think of pollution. They think of going outside, smelling smog and things like that. But what about your own pollution that you create in the house with all these like air fresheners and things like that? Because with my sister, we did find out it wasn’t hereditary.. So basically something clicked, something got cells growing and it’s like, Well, I don’t believe it’s like maybe one ingredient that’s probably being exposed to multiple chemicals. Some of it, you breathe through the air, some of it you’re eating, whatever pesticide residue or, or worse, it’s like, all this artificial flavoring. Can we have real food anymore? That was our synthetic chemicals. Like everything else in these chemicals, something always comes out later, and then it’s what you read and we don’t have all the same genetics and it will affect us more than others and at different concentrations and things like that.

Roughly a week after that I decided to quit. And by that time we had some products formulated we were using and I said, let’s see. You know what, let’s come out with these products and we’ll use those as a means to educate people that there are alternatives that is healthier for you, your family. And and at that time we didn’t think about the environment as much. It was mostly just for the people’s health. So really green beaver was not born with a business plan. Actually. I only wrote a business plan 15 years after we launched our first products, it was really born on a mission. We actually said, okay, let’s make these products, we’ll sell this products. You got to make enough to make a living because we only had so much savings and we had quit our pretty good jobs and all that stuff. So, as long as we can do that, we’ll use the products as a means to communicate our mission to help people live more natural, healthier lives. And later on, we added and in a sustainable world.

Jennifer Myers Chua: You had this background in science, you had this family, you were starting, and you had this complicated diagnosis with your sister. And now you had this idea for a product basically for a brand. How did you move this forward into creating an actual business?

Alain Ménard : There was a reason and definitely, but still, it was pretty bold starting out a family, good careers, I mean, wow. What were we thinking? I guess we truly believed it obviously. We were going to a health food store, went on, the internet started looking at it. They sell natural products. So maybe if we came out with some products and we had bought some natural, natural, personal care from there. We’re coming mostly from the states. No, it wasn’t that many there, but mostly from the states, Canadians were not even heard of.

And we said, Okay, well maybe we can start making our products and then we can go and deliver them to the stores and then they could sell their products for us. Most of the products are already there and there were a few, but were mostly coming from the state. And then well basically, you empty your basement, then you put up some shelves. Right. And we were lucky because I did have a, the help of my parents. My dad would come and help me label the order and sticks and things like that, watching hockey game or during the day with me in a basement with a wood stove going in that day and, whatever. And Coco came around and our son Joshua and yeah, so my mom would help out with with cocoa because Karen was busy, also working. Our first orders, I mean, it was just like one carton box, it would maybe five, six product inner boxes and that was it little by little. And then consumer shows, we did so many consumer shows.

I’ll never forget. The first one I told Karen, we had a van and I said, okay, we loaded up the van. I mean, there wasn’t a square inch left in that van. I said, we have to bring lots of products because this is going to be a hit. If I could have hooked up a trailer to the van, I would have hooked it up. And I would have filled that one too. There was a Toronto woman’s show. I said, Karen, they said, there’s going to be 30 000 women. We’re going to tell him we have a deodorant without aluminum, I mean, they’re going to line up and all natural and toothpaste with real flavors for their kids? I said, Karen, it’s going to be crazy. It was a tree day show. Would I started Friday afternoon type thing. And I said I don’t think we’ll have enough stuff to last till Saturday. End of day, Saturday. But that’s all we could bring. I’m like, oh, what a disaster? So I’m there. And I have my new products and I’m thinking, man, they’re going to jump all over this. And all I saw is I saw a bunch of deers all weekend, like a deer when it looks into headlights. And when I was telling him they would just look at me and I could tell, like, they’re not getting it. They don’t get it. So that was a long trade show. Hardly sold anything.

And all the other, like booths were like major, like big cosmetic companies. And we had a little wood table and. I kind of like very disappointed. And then I was thinking and thinking I couldn’t stop, and I figure it out. And I said, I remember saying to Karen, you know what? I think I know why. You know when we say this is toothpaste with natural flavors and they look at you like what? So like why, I said, Karen, this is what’s going on in the world. Artificial flavors have become the norm. Natural flavors, almost a weird thing. Cause they’re so used to the artificial. I said, I don’t know how we got here. I guess these big companies with all their marketing and whatever. Right. They pushed it at us. We, they liked it and they can’t get off it. You know what I mean? They’ll almost think of natural is like, is like weird. And is it safe? So I said, we’re going to have to start way back a couple steps back in the education process because who, I didn’t think it was that far back.

Jennifer Myers Chua: In the beginning, the company was really founded on helping people make healthier decisions for their health and then sustainability and all that piece came later. I was wondering, do you have a moment that really stands out in your mind when sustainability became important to you?

Alain Ménard : triclosan. That got me really thinking. It’s a chemical antibacterial agent and it’s found like, antibacterial soaps, it was even in toothpaste. And then a study, started coming out, showing that the triclosan, they could find it in the sewage. Right. And then they could find it. In the Ottawa river and lake Ontario, Pacific ocean, near Vancouver. Why? Well, first of all, it’s very persistent. It’s not doesn’t biodegrade. Very easily. Right? So they could see that, Hey, this stuff is like everywhere. And the study came out and then a few after came out that validated that first study that showed that it was actually like having an effect on the aquatic animals, so it was killing frogs and all kinds of nasty stuff. Cause they could find triclosan in them and things like that. So then you start thinking and not many people think about it. I didn’t before that, I don’t think so. If you were to just think . Tomorrow, Montreal Toronto, Vancouver, all the big, big cities across Canada, right? How many litres of shampoos and shower gels and conditioners and laundry detergent, dish washing detergent, that’s going to go through the system and then end up in our river rivers and lakes. Day after day. It’s horrible. And then the worst thing is it makes me think of like, when they use pesticides on food that we eat, you throw it out in the water and then, you know What? You bring it back in to drink. You’re polluting your water source.

Does that you bring aliens here? I think are aliens, yeah. Well maybe I’m superior intelligence than us. They would look at us and say, those are the most stupidest animals I’ve ever seen. They’re contaminating their food source and their water source. An, the land that they need to grow the food source. Like they’re really not too intelligent. Think about it. What I exactly just cause we always did it that way. And so far it doesn’t mean we can change,

so triclosan. Yeah, that was the first one. FDA actually, banned it in the states. There’s no more triclosan in products in the states. If you come to Canada, health, Canada reduced the amount that is allowed in products, but they didn’t actually ban it. So that was horrible.

Jennifer Myers Chua: You commented earlier that this is becoming more top of mind for a lot of people. I’m curious how you did that because you a pioneer in this space, you really are. I mean, I was using your shampoo in 2006 or something like this. You are a person that really significantly impacted how Canadians feel about these products. I would love to know what you did to really create change here. Like I’m assuming your background in science maybe gave you a unique advantage in communication, but how did you break through to meeting consumers where there only beginning to understand that natural is important?

Alain Ménard : We were doing mostly like grassroots stuff. Right. So our impact would have been kind of limited, but with other companies getting on board there are groups like the environmental defense, and bunch of scientists there that really started going after the chemicals and showing everybody to prove, it’s when the scientists got more together, it used to be, the scientists would be like on the other side, proving that the chemicals were safe, those are the people that have the knowledge they can see through it. And then there started to be a shift. So some of those minds went into places like environmental defense or whatnot, and started working for the good side, the natural side. I see it as a good site, and I think that was probably where it started. Started getting a little bit traction and these were credible people. Talking about real studies, real results, real research. And then I hate to say it, but I think that this whole, like climate change actually accelerated it because by showing people that, our CO2 emissions can actually affect the weather, I remember way at the beginning, a lot of people are skeptical about all of that. Even there were scientists saying they were saying, no, it’s not true. It took a long time, cause the onus usually it’s always in science, it’s always a, the proof that it’s not rather than prove that it does, it’s a safer way of doing it, I guess, but it takes more time. You know what also, now that I think back over the years, it’s when you had like all of a sudden, a product recall, it’s like all of a sudden you have the agencies they’re batting triclosan, not to be used ever on the American soil, because they realized that all this stuff in these soaps and things like that is damaging to the environment. If health Canada ban some ingredient ingredients as well. Before the companies would say, well, no, it is safe. This chemical is safe because it’s approved by health Canada. They approved it on whatever data they had at that time. Who presented the data who prepared the data, a little bit of a conflict of interest there. Yeah.

And then you had things like, finally it was proven that the baby powder containing Talc cause cancers, ovarian cancers, and that company’s being sued for it right now, proven in court that they were guilty, that they had some knowledge of it. That’s horrible. It was just like recently, two weeks ago, all of a sudden you have this major, big brand company that recalling all of their sunscreen because they, they figured out that it contains benzene, which is cancer causing. And this is happening as we speak right now, these products are being pulled off the shelves. And it’s all of this stuff coming out.

And then people say, well, wait a minute, you say it’s safe, your research has shown that it’s safe. Yeah. But you should see the protocols, it’s like pesticides, they have to be tested obviously, when, when they’re tested, they’re tested and they don’t go out and test it and plots outside when it’s like super windy, it’s very, very calm. And the farmers are supposed to only apply like pesticide when it’s not windy, but you know, when you only have so many days to spread and you have so many acres, you’re in a hurry.

I remember once jogging. I could Tastes like something metal and like metal in your mouth. And I looked over and they were spraying and it was getting the wind. I was breathing in all of the the pesticides, was like, my God, they don’t, they’re not being used like you’re supposed to be used for whatever reason, not accusing people, but it’s just the way it is.

Jennifer Myers Chua: I’d love to talk to you a little bit more about these recalls because on hipmommies Instagram, for example, we share information with our followers, a lot about these recalls, and there’s been a lot of conversation about the sunscreen recall, and I’ve heard so many different opinions about this, but we always advocate for these natural mineral based sunscreens regardless. So I was wondering since your sunscreen is one of the best sellers in Canada, especially for children and it is mineral based. Can you explain a little bit more about what that means and the safety around sunscreen in terms of health and environment?

Alain Ménard : Conventional sunscreen, the ones made with the chemicals have been having a hard time. If you look back in the last four or five years right now, starting with studies coming out that showed that the active ingredients in sunscreen actually do cross the skin. That’s the active chemicals, right? And these are simple studies and they’ve been done and redone and redone. It’s proven every time, after a single use of these chemical sunscreens, studies have shown that they found them in urine and blood and breast milk. They get right through your, your skin and get right into your system and it just goes everywhere. Again, there were saying, Yeah yeah but it’s a such a small amount that safe that, and I hate that answer.

So, they were getting a bad rap because they were scared, but they use their PR to convince the people, reassure people that, but it’s okay. It’s still safe. And then a couple years ago there was a big recall. And one of the big brands, kid’s skins were all like burning and nothing to do with the active ingredient on that one. Because of artificial fragrance. They had started using a new artificial fragrance and it just burned kids skin and you can still find that information on CBC actually.

And then two years ago, this was a shocker. I knew I’ve seen studies that but it was, I had a hard time believing it, but more research was done and actually it was proven, they were finding out small, small amount of chemical sunscreen on people. When they go swimming in the coral reef, where people were going to swim, the coral reefs were dying and they made their link. They found the chemical from the sunscreen, very small amount, but in the coral. They did studies and they showed that yeah, it could kill it. So actually Hawaii, the state of Hawaii, who depend a lot on tourism and they like to have their coral cause that attracts people too, have banned the use of chemical sunscreen. They only allow the use of mineral sunscreen. Isn’t that unbelievable to say that they’ve banned it, and well, two weeks ago the benzene issue it’s like, okay, enough is enough. People, there are great natural mineral sunscreens out there, safe for you, effective. They go through the same testing as they do for the efficacy as the chemical ones, and it’s all submitted to health Canada. They have to review it. Isn’t there enough bad stuff known about chemical sunscreen?

Jennifer Myers Chua: If you haven’t made that switch yet, if you haven’t tried mineral sunscreen, what exactly is the difference?

Alain Ménard : It’s the active ingredients. So, basically instead of using the avobenzone and all those type of chemicals that, that act as an active ingredient in the sunscreen, you’re basically using a mineral powder. So it’s basically a zinc oxide or titanium dioxide. It’s also an active ingredient, but it’s also for us blocking the rays, but it’s also a counter irritant that takes away a skin rash. So basically the way that these minerals work is basically they block it. The rays just bounce off them. It’s pretty simple.

Jennifer Myers Chua: So in your time making sunscreen, for example, you’ve noticed all of these issues with conventional sunscreens and some of the chemicals that are getting through testing and making it onto store shelves. When did you realize that conventional baby care products may be less than ideal? What’s going on in conventional baby products that we need to be aware of?

Alain Ménard : If you look at baby products and baby shampoo or an adult shampoo, I mean, they’re all made at the same components. You need a surfactant, which is a soap component. You need texturizer, so it doesn’t come out so liquidity that comes out of the bottle too quick. You need a preservative. There is a pediatrician in the states that did a really simple study just to prove one thing. She knew that, for example, the lavender go to bed, baby lotion or whatever, soothing and everything, but you know what, the majority of the conventional products that say it’s lavender do not contain lavender. Right? I don’t know why they’re allowed to say lavender. It should say lavender scent. And she knew that. So basically all these products contain artificial fragrances, and she knew that an artificial fragrance is not one ingredient. On average, it’s 14 different chemicals put together. And because it’s propriety information companies do not have to reveal what is in that fragrance. That just that fact scares me cause that’s carte blanche to put whatever you want. You just have to basically sign an affidavit that it’s safe for the government. But I think that’s not enough personally. But one of the chemicals that the, that the majority of these artificial fragrance contain is called phthalates. It’s kind of a funny word. It’s even harder to pronounce. They actually prolong this duration of a scent, intensifies it and prolong.

I saw an ad on TV, not too long ago. Where there one of these air fresheners, it’s like, eh, it’s good for like seven daysand I thought. Oh my God, you’re going to put that in their house. And it’s going to stick around for seven days. So anyways, that’s what these phthalates do. And so like, for example, if you were to put a lavender essential oil on your t-shirt and a lavender artificial fragrance with phthalates in it and another t-shirt put them away and your laundry room, whatever, for a week, you bring both out. I can guarantee you the lavender t-shirt won’t smell like lavender anymore, there are lavender artificial fragrance, still will. Those are the phthalates at work. There’s many different types of phthalates it’s a class of chemicals and this pediatrician knew that phthalates were suspected endocrine disruptors.

Some of it we’ll call them Zino estrogen or whatever. What it is is that basically it’s a chemical that gets into your system. When people say what mean, I just putting out, I’m just putting this stuff on my skin. I’m not eating it. And I know a lot of the chemicals, not all, but a lot of the chemicals in these products actually get through your skin and they don’t just sit there underneath your skin forever. No, they get picked up in your blood system. And then here we go. Yeah. let’s go for a ride. We’ll go through this organ we’ll go through this organ. We’ll go to the brain. We’ll go through the liver. The liver that’s when a lot of times it’s it, it gets broken down. And unfortunately some of these chemicals they’re kind of shaped, like some of our hormones, there is like a key and they fit only in certain area. On receptors cell receptors So you have a chemical that resembles a hormone that you have, and it creates a hormonal imbalance. So all of a sudden, there’s too many of these hormones clicking all of these receptors at the same time. And that’s when it can cause serious illness, leading up to cancer.

Hormones are very, very powerful, small amount difference can change a body like you wouldn’t believe. Right? So they’re called Zino estrogen. And so she was concerned. She was concerned that she knew that parents would the, wash your baby every day with these artificial fragrance to put some lotions on. And she was concerned. So it was really pretty simple study. When you think about it, she collected urine from 268 babies across the country in the states because she wanted regional representation and all that stuff. So you take the urine and you just send it out to an analytical lab and you, you just see phthalates and then the baby’s urine. And babies don’t forget they are growing hormones, you have growing organs, even more susceptible to a hormonal imbalance. And unfortunately what they found was that a hundred percent of the babies tested, had phthalates in their urine. Hundred percent. I mean, that’s horrible. We’re poisoning our children.

And then you’re wondering, little Johnny can’t concentrate. Yeah. I know, but he’s indirectly being drugged with all these chemical hormones and the parents don’t even know they’re doing it. Can’t concentrate. Oh. And then yeah, of course. Okay. Well, let’s, let’s give him some pills, and there’s no end to it. I’m not advocating that people should, just stay away from medication. We have an illness, it’s an illness. It’s different, but what led to the illness? That’s the problem with modern medicine today. We’re, it’s very good at bandaging things. You have a, this disease here, you have this symptom, okay. Here’s a medication to take care of that symptom. Well maybe why do I have that symptom?

Jennifer Myers Chua: Something else that you’ve really revolutionized really, is both toothpaste and anti per sprint. And I know you’ve won some awards and you’ve gotten a lot of Canadian press about your antiperspirant, your toothpaste, but why did you choose antiperspirant and toothpaste and what makes yours so revolutionary?

Alain Ménard : They don’t need preservatives, the water activity meaning the amount of water it’s available for microorganisms to grow in that type of product is very low. and there’s humectants in there. So they basically, they take the water and they don’t give it away. Nowadays we have all kinds of natural preservatives that we can use it. You can eat. Back then it was. It was tough finding them, it was a big challenge.

I also, at the same time toothpaste, we though well, you know what? Maybe people will get it more cause it putting it in their mouth. Most people now know that your skin can absorb stuff, yeah. Probably still some awareness to be done there, but back then, no people didn’t even think about it. So I said, well, okay. And the deodorant, well, I always had a big hunch and it’s been proven now, it’s the aluminum in those antiperspirants. for years the companies always said, oh no, It’s a, it’s safe. It doesn’t cross your skin. They always said it. They said it just gets in your sweat pores and creates a plug in. Eventually it plug falls out when it plugs, it plugs your sweat pores while sweat can come out of it. And people have to understand, it’s not just like aluminum, pure aluminum that they dig up from the earth. No, no. It’s chemically treated aluminum. Aluminum chlorohydrate. Aluminum zirconium. It’s not as if like those exist in nature. No, it’s manmade, partly what it partly natural element.

I laughed yesterday. I saw a company come up with a, an antiperspirant, but aluminum, but they said, Yeah but it’s made with recycled aluminum. It’s like, Okay. But what about the people’s health that doesn’t, that doesn’t change anything, and studies have shown that that’s a, those chemically treated aluminums were potential endocrine disruptor or cancer causing if you want. And studies have shown that there were, they did find some of this aluminum in the breast tissue that was metastasized cancer or tumor. And it’s like, Okay. there is a smoking gun, but the industry still said, no, no, it’s impossible. It must be coming from somewhere else because you can’t get true. Further studies had been done by using isotope and they added an isotope to the aluminum, so they could actually trace it. Yeah. They take a blood sample, they find the aluminum they’ll know it’s the aluminum that actually came from there. So first study showed that the, yes, the, it does cross the skin. It’s pretty complex a study to do. It sounds simple, but it’s not. And then the, even that tested on people that have just shaved. They call it damaged skin. If you apply it right after a damaged skin, you get six fold, more absorption of aluminum from the aluminum stick.

And people maybe don’t know this too, but a typical antiperspirant contains anywhere between 15 up to a 25% pure refined aluminum adds a lot. That’s a lot. So when those studies came out and now you’re seeing it on shelves in Canada now, the companies were a little bit scared because they’d been going on saying it’s safe. It doesn’t get through your skin. So the first thing they did or the FDA forced them to do it is add a new warning to there, to the antiperspirant, stick to the label. And it’s in the back of the label. I would encourage people to read it and Canada’s not mandatory, in the states it is, but most companies in Canada will actually add the warning. Cause most of them are American companies anyhow. And they don’t want to get sued. So it says if, if you have kidney disease to ask you your doctor before using this product, why renal disease can they disease? Because this aluminum is getting to your skin and getting into your body, it is circulating everywhere, and if you have renal disease, you need your kidneys to get rid of the aluminum. It gets filtered out of your blood so that you can get it out of your body.

But people with kidney disease, they can’t get rid of the aluminum fast. They can get a toxic level of aluminum and have serious damage. And, studies have shown you take care of the aluminum and antiperspirants you’ll think about the breast cancer. You’ll think about the Alzheimer’s. Cause there was a study shown that, they scan the people’s brain that had Alzheimer’s versus people who didn’t have that same age group. And there was a significant difference of of aluminum in people with Alzheimer’s brain. So it does cross the blood-brain barrier. Right. So how long will this be allowed to continue? I hope not for long. And they started adding those types of warning. It’s like an admission, right? So it’s just a question of time. I think the smoking gun is there for the breast cancer link. It’s just a question of time.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Natural deodorants have had a bad rap that they don’t work. What did you do? What is the difference with yours? Why does yours work?

Alain Ménard : There’s deodorants and then there’s antiperspirants right. So we’ve had deodorants for all for 19 years, right? And we introduced them to aluminum free, antiperspirant a couple of years ago. And I’ll come back to that one. But first we, we looked at the smell. Why people wear deodorant? Is for the smell. Deodorant will not stop you from sweating. Only aluminum based antiperspirant could do that because the aluminum goes into the plug, the sweat pores, and creates this metal plug.

And we thought, wow. Okay. Cause when you look at the composition of sweat, now people say I’m sweating. I stink. Yeah. But the sweat doesn’t smell. It’s almost odorless. Of course it’s mostly water, but you do have some stuff coming out, depending on what you ate, whatever, but what causes this smell? Actually, your arm it’s armpits are full of bacteria, molds and yeast.

It’s quite disgusting actually. And then, so what happens is that when you sweat, you’re feeding them, that’s their food. They love moist areas. So then when they get that moisture and they get some nutrients, they start multiplying. And when they multiply, they create byproducts and that’s what smells. There’s some very specific bacteria. One of them is called CNO bacteria, something, I forgot the name, but it’s actually using to make cheese in one of those stinky cheese. So next time you smell it, thinky cheese you’ll see it smells a little bit like armpits. I, sorry, I don’t want to ruin, everybody said love for cheese there, but just by the way.

We focus mostly on the antibacterial part of the deodorant because we knew if we could put in there enough antibacterial agents, natural, of course, the less bacteria you have or microorganism the, less byproducts you’re going to produce when you’re feeding it water. Basically that’s the whole concept. So we really focused very hard on that and that was my specialty. So it was just a given, it was Okay. Let me play with some antibacterial stuff.

I think it’s important to sweat personally. I do. I think get some people say, oh, well you get, that’s how you get rid of a lot of toxins. No, you get rid of a little bit of toxins. Yes. But the majority of your toxins, you get rid of it through your urine and feces. It’s a natural thing to do and maybe there’s other things we don’t understand, but there are times when you don’t want to sweat. I don’t know you’re at a wedding, big presentation, whatever, so that’s why people, a lot people would still continue using antiperspirant.

The deodorants had a bad rap, so quite a long time, most of them weren’t that good. To be honest with you. The old, old deodorants it’s all they used to be is this heavily perfumed so that when you put it, hopefully that perfume would be stronger than your own perfume, and then, the antibacterial people started working with more antibacterial active ingredients that greatly improved the efficacy, but then people are still sweating though. That’s the thing. So I thought about it. Well, if we could make something to replace the aluminum, but that was safe. I didn’t want to have something so small that it could get into a sweat pore. So I thought, well, what if we did like a surface block, temporary surface block for those people don’t want to sweat. So that’s when we thought of wax wax actually the idea came, we were working on the sunscreen and we use wax as a, for the natural waterproofing, right. Instead of using a silicone, that’s another bad one. That’s just triclosan, its gonna come out it’s just a question a time. We do the first test. We just do it qualitative. So you put it on your back of your hand and then I call it the faucet test. You put your hand underneath the water. If you see you look at, see if the water pearls and they do big pearls or small pearls. It gives you an indication that it’s going to work. We’re allowed to see sweat resistant on our sunscreen. So I thought Okay. It’s water resistant, but it’s also sweat resistant. So we started working with the wax, but it wasn’t working. Your skin is not smooth. It’s like in grand canyon, like full of crevices. So I used part of waxes esters. The definition of Esther means part of, so you have all these long fatty acid chains there, so you just cut and use a little piece of the wax. So they can get down into grand canyon. So it does like a film, it’s a surface film. It doesn’t get into your pores. It’s too big.

So finally we did a study head-to-head. Versus the conventional brands with aluminum. It was done in a specialized lab on people. So we actually tested it to see if it prevented the sweating. And we showed that it was just as effective. Finally, we have something just as effective for the sweating. We had something for this smell, but now we have something for the sweating and the smell, obviously. So yeah, that was a big accomplishment. That was one of our biggest one. Honestly, there it’s a, it’s a big one.

We’ve been making toothpaste for 19 years, so we weren’t allowed to say the anti-cavity on the toothpaste because it didn’t contain fluoride. I was a regulation. We figured out something, we put together, all the literature, the research, and sent it to health Canada. They finally agreed that the research that we showed that yes, 20% xylitol in a toothpaste is as effective as fluoride. It is anti-cavity, which is a big thing, especially for children’s toothpaste, because now you finally have anti-cavity children’s toothpaste that is safe to swallow. And I say that because any toothpaste on the market clearly says on the packaging or the box or the tube, whatever caution, for children of six years of age or less only put the size of a pea size amount of toothpaste and make sure they don’t swallow it. And if they do contact your poison control center, wow. What does that. What does that tell you about fluoride? Flouride is great. It’s great for Anticavity, prevent cavity for tooth enamel and things like that. But if you start ingesting it and you start getting too much, it can end up with fluorosis.

This is not proven yet, but the study by a group of Harvard researchers showed that cities that had fluoride in a water they had a higher incidence of bone cancer and cities that didn’t have fluoride in our water. So they think there’s a link they’re not proven yet, but.

Jennifer Myers Chua: You’ve been advocating for Canadians for our health, with the government with health Canada for all of these years, but you’re also committed to education and raising awareness. And you do a lot of that as well, which I love about the potential dangers of chemicals, but I was wondering how you were interacting with local producers and the natural world. Could you talk a little bit about what green beaver is doing in terms of climate initiatives or in terms of supporting local producers?

Alain Ménard : That’s part of sustainability. Some people will look at it as local economy. It’s more than that. Sustainability. For example, sunflower seed oil. Yeah. I could buy it cheaper and Ukraine, but you know what to bring all those barrels from Ukraine to here, that creates a lot of pollution. You got to try to minimize, you know, all the transport. All those boats very diesel and soforth. It’s more, more of a sustainability thing. We support organic farmers obviously, and every time you buy organic food, you’re providing a business for an organic farmer . So let’s say he has a hundred acres. Well, that’s a hundred acres that no pesticide is being spread on. That’s at a hundred acres that actually bees can actually breed and not being killed by pesticides, that’s a hundred acres that the earth is healthy. They showed it, the, the pesticide was all question of a yield, right? How much are you going to get per acre? There’s a study was done in Pennsylvania. It’s like a Amish. They don’t use pesticides and they get more bushels of corn per acre than the big producers with their pesticides and their synthetic fertilizer. Why is because the earth is healthy, there’s all kinds of microorganisms in there creating their own natural fertilizer. So every time you buy organic, you got to think that, you know what, you’re helping out. You’re helping to reduce the amount of pesticides and chemicals that’s being spread in our land. That’s leaching in our rivers contaminating, not just the earth, the water, but also the animals that live in it feed off. And who else feeds off it, not just the animals.

Jennifer Myers Chua: When you think about the children, or when you think about the Canadians of the future or the people of the future, are you hopeful?

Alain Ménard : very hopeful? optimistic, feel great about it. It feels like I didn’t just spend the last 20 years just I dunno singing out in the middle of nowhere. Nobody heard nothing. It’s happening. It’s actually happening. It took a long time. I’m telling you the first 10 years, I still, it was so slow. People weren’t getting it. But now if I looked at the last five years, oh my God, it’s unbelievable. I mean, I didn’t grow up with, we weren’t recycling in those days. Right. But then I look at the, my son. For him it’s recycling is, yeah. That’s what you do. You don’t even think about it. Eating organic for him. He’s like, yeah, of course. That’s what you do. You don’t need chemicals or that’s, this doesn’t make sense. I think that next generation, because again, I think about, the millenial parents. Compared to parents 20 years ago. My research is qualitative. But I’ve talked to many parents. It’s night and day. So their children that will be just for them, that will become the norm. So I come back to the story when I clued in that people accepted artificial flavors as the norm. Well, now they’re going to be accepting, like, of course you eat natural, real food. That’s the norm. No more of these artificial flavors. I’m just using that as an example, but yeah, very optimistic. It’s like a, wow. I, it’s so great. It’s a great feeling that, people are finally waking up. Again, like I said earlier, I think the global warming accelerated the awareness and the acceptance, although right now, if you look at everything that’s going on in the world with the impact of global warming and the pollution and things like that, I think in 20 years from now, we’re going to be in a better position than what we are today. The air is going to be cleaner and 20 years from now than it is today. I’m sure of it it’s going to happen. It’s unfortunate, but sometimes that’s what people need. They need a little bit of a shock, to believe, to change their ways. And I think we’ve got that shock. We want to change and we don’t want to feel that again. And now for our future generations, no, can leave that to them

Jennifer Myers Chua: if you want to learn more about Alain and his certified organic and cruelty-free personal care products. Visit greenbeaver.com. Looking to try the revolutionary antiperspirant or toothpaste that uses the benefit of science. You can find both in retailers, across Canada. You can follow along with Alain on his mission to inspire a natural way of life in a more sustainable world. On Facebook at thegreenbeaver or Instagram at the_green _beaver.

 

In today’s episode, we chat with Courtney Stewart from The Good Kiind. We explore why Courtney shut down her reusable silicone label business at the height of success to start a brand new company, and learn what lessons she learned from her first go at entrepreneurship. We discover why she decided to launch her new business with plastic-free, litterless lunch options, how the community supported her when an established brand launched a similar product, why you shouldn’t rush out to buy her product if you have a lunch box already, and how she’s planning to use the Good Kiind to create meaningful change.

If you want to learn more about Courtney and her endlessly reusable mealtime essentials for families on-the-go visit thegoodkiind.com. Looking for litter-proof lunch solutions for back to school? They are available to order now. You can follow along with Courtney on her mission to helping you sustainably and mindfully tackle life with littles on Facebook or Instagram.

Links from this episode

• You Can Help Keep 540 Plastic Sandwich Bags Out of the Ocean With One Swap
• Zero Waste Canada

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Myers Chua: It’s back-to-school season already. And in retail, this is a really big deal. In mid to late summer, millions of parents begin stocking up on school essentials, things like book bags, lunch boxes, lunch bags, pencils, and other supplies. And everything needs to be labelled with the child’s name. Which is how I came across Nomi & Sibs. A brand that sold multi-purpose silicone labels to stretch over water bottles, snack, tins, pencil cases. Colorful fun, endlessly reusable. I labelled all of our family’s things and bought more as gifts.

And they were definitely popular. Nomi & Sibs had a strong social media following. I’d see them in the school yard. And so I was incredibly surprised when the founder Courtney announced that they’d be shutting down. Sales were strong, support for women-owned and black-owned businesses had never been stronger. Why this choice?

And I couldn’t help, but think about Instagram. See late in 2019, One of the large Canadian label brands had launched their new product. This is a brand started by a mom of five and it ended up growing and being sold to a major international corporation. So this brands, personalized bottle bands, as they called them were pretty much indistinguishable from Nomi & Sibs. Side-by-side it was hard to see a difference. And The mom community also saw this and voiced this loudly in the comment section. I assumed that something was going on here with this behind the scenes. And we’ll go more into this in a bit.

Shortly after receiving my last order of the Nomi & Sibs labels, the site went down to re-emerge this summer as The Good Kiind. And I have to admit that I am even more excited about Courtney’s new venture.

The first product with The Good Kiind is the B.I.G. It’s the box and go. A stainless steel lunchbox, safe, and will last for years. It’s made from really high quality materials and it’s completely plastic free. Made so that little one can really lug it around for all of elementary. So you don’t have to buy a new box each fall. And since the average family in north America is using hundreds of single use plastic sandwich bags and plastic wrappers a year, all which head into landfill. This is an impactful switch.

I asked Courtney about that competitor. And if this was the reason for the change, but she has a positive view on the situation. Commenting on the tremendous support that she received from her customers and how much this gave her the confidence to move forward with a new idea. A brand that’s really rooted in her own ideas of living a low waste life. And for the competition. Courtney’s always been really athletic. And so she views business. Like she does athletics. She’s ready to take on the challenge.

Courtney Stewart: Yeah, I grew up playing sports all my life. And so you see a lot of athletes turn into entrepreneurs. It’s that like, go get her, gotta win sort of, attitude inside that never really leaves you when you’re done sports. So, I actually played basketball in university. A lot of people don’t know that about me. I played division one basketball in Ohio. So, and I studied business.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Courtney started her career in corporate America. She worked for really large companies and she considers this period to be vital training for what she decided to do afterwards. After starting her family, Courtney wanted to explore doing her own thing rather than working for somebody else. And she wanted to start a business that aligned with her values, but she wasn’t exactly sure what that could look like. She came across an idea for personalized labels for drinkware. The concept was to be able to use one label from baby bottle to sippy cup, to thermos, reusing that one label across multiple stages. It was the idea of creating something endlessly reusable that was so appealing. She couldn’t find anything similar available in Canada. So she set out to work, looking into materials and manufacturers.

Courtney Stewart: I’d already started myself on that journey of, products that are a little bit better, a little bit better for the environment, definitely better for us into our home. So started there and did that for a few years, but quickly realized before the three years that you know, personalized business as you scale up is very challenging. The challenges were very difficult to overcome.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Courtney began to run into quality control issues with her manufacturing partner. And she tried to take that personalization piece into house. But the laser engraving was proving to be a huge challenge and getting this into retail was proving to be a huge challenge. And then she had to rely on fulfillment centers in Canada and the us, which also wasn’t working out. Maybe this could have been overcome. Courtney was beginning to see it as a sign that it was time to try something else.

Courtney Stewart: Unfortunately we were very busy and at those times too, and being a small business I don’t think we were a huge priority for them. And There were just a lot of issues, a lot of error, a lot of quality control. And it ultimately solidified what I had already been feeling. And then we wrapped up the business, we wrapped up we’re calling it a pivot, but we wrapped up the labels of any personalized products. about six months ago in December, so, started the new year fresh and been working on The Good Kiind ever since.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Have there been any really significant events in your life that have shaped how you see the world and how you see the world this way?

Courtney Stewart: My father passed away when I was 13 and I feel like, as a dad, he was just like robbed right of so many years with his kids and his family. And I think that’s something that has stuck with me. To think, like, what could he have done? What could, what impact could he have made in those years that he, lost and it, I think it makes me as a parent really want to, leave a legacy of some kind, like, be impactful in some way. I don’t want to just live. I want to live with purpose and I want to have it like, meaning I want, when somebody, says my name or, even my kids. And they’re like, oh, her mom, recycling lady, or, that lady who like, she’s trying to inspire, people to do the right thing. Like that’s important to me. Because I, I think it makes you feel really good to, to bring out the goodness in people. And it’s something that is very selfless to do. But I think if there

was

something that I think about often, I think about, my dad and his time lost and the impact that he, could have continued making or what the things he could have gotten into that, what he was passionate about that could have, you know, helped shape the future. I feel like we’re here for a reason and it’s an unselfish reason. It’s, it’s beyond, ourselves, it’s gotta have a purpose and it’s got to impact others.

Jennifer Myers Chua: What exactly is the good kind. What are your products? And what are you all about?

Courtney Stewart: The Good Kiind from a product standpoint is an accessible line of kind of safe plastic-free high-end premium, good quality planet friendly mealtime solutions. Essentials for families. And the whole idea behind it is this is what I practice in my life is when you know, better through education and learning and listening to people you want to do better, I at least want to do better. So that’s really what I want to inspire. And hopefully through, our products and our content and how we can be out there in front of people we want to inspire people to live with purpose, choose products that are better for you, but better for the planet, better for your kids and your families. And essentially, that’s kind of like embodying the good kind you’re making The Good Kiinds of decisions, you’re being The Good Kiind of person and doing the things that like make you feel good that you do, even when nobody’s watching, all of these things tied into one, we’re still working out the messaging, but it’s a good kind of feeling, really like the things that you do that really make you feel good because, you did the right thing. It was a message. And we’re doing that. The avenue is through our product.

Jennifer Myers Chua: What was your thought path if you had this idea for maybe. More sustainable products or products that are better for your family. Why did you start with lunch?

Courtney Stewart: I think this is the athlete in me, the timing of the year when we decided to pivot and the season I really wanted to hit, this is a strategic business. Was definitely back to school. I felt like we had that audience already, that we had a back-to-school product that was important prior to previously. So I felt like it was a good fit. you know, Looking back, it was definitely very rushed. Definitely one thing I’ve learned as an entrepreneur is just like having goals and, trying to push it, push it. It’s great. But sometimes you just need to take your time with things. And so I’m definitely learning that, but that’s really why we wanted to drive this whole out of the home, on the go part of the line first. And then the goal will be to move into at-home solutions within the next probably 12 months.

Jennifer Myers Chua: With little ones at home. I’m assuming that you’ve gone through a number of lunchboxes. So what were the issues with the lunchboxes that you’ve seen already like what kind of changes are you trying to make with your new product?

Courtney Stewart: We’re not the first to come up with a similar concept, in terms of a lunchbox that’s attached where, you’ve got all the options, the way little kids, like to see it when they open up a lunchbox when they’re at school. But we did see some things that need to be changed. And so, one of the things that were pain points for parents who were using, similar style, bento boxes, some plastic, some stainless, somewhat not but hands down, number one thing that we heard complaint, was it leaking and leaking in terms of not necessarily just that like the lid, the leaking inside. So, when they would open it, the hummus would be uh, it’s already dipped for you, you know, things like that. And when it comes to your kids, God love them, but they might not want to eat that if they see soggy crackers. So I always want to set my kids up for success.

So I want to set them up so that when they open that lunch, they’re enticed to eat it. They’ve got a lot of options that are still the way they were when we pack that lunch. And so I really wanted to go off of that pain point and make something better. Like I said, we’re not the first stainless steel. We’re not the first bento box, but I feel like we’ve made some really good improvements. And in that way, with adding that silicone seal on the lid that, it does not allow anything to move around inside. So when those kids are shuffling and running to their school bus or from the school bus and whatnot, nothing’s moving. So parents can be confident that when they opened that lunch box, hopefully there’ll be excited to see what they what’s inside.

Jennifer Myers Chua: We’ve had school shutdowns here for over a year and a half. And. I only started, revisiting our lunchbox solutions for summer camp lately and was surprised to see that one of the lunchboxes that we use is a plastic lunchbox with a silicone interior. And it was noticing that the silicone was kind of coming back. And when I did some Googling. There are known issues with some of these plastic bento boxes and mold, which I found. Not only surprising. But i found it really alarming

Courtney Stewart: whenever things can get in those cracks. Right? It’s hard whether it, honestly, if it’s plastic or stainless, of course, like, I feel like stainless, you can get a better clean in there, you can put it in the dishwasher and nothing’s going to change shape. And our silicone seal, it comes off so that you can clean in there, every night, if you want or weekly, whatever. Those nooks and crannies that you can’t get to, sometimes they tend to leave mold. And, we’re talking about eliminating toxins through, better materials of like food plates and containers. And then, potentially there’s mold hidden in the crevices of those containers. I think that’s this through education. I remember one time I was I were very popular brand water bottles, stainless water bottle. They had it, it was a plastic. And unless you popped like the center of the lid out, you never would see, but inside, there was exactly where the kids are having taken a drink from. It was garbage in there. And so you really had to know to like, get that straw cleaning, stick in there and really clean because we’re, we’re giving them the great products to be using and what not, but, the toxins are there and the mold and everything, like that’s just as harmful or if not worse. So, it, it’s important to be able to have a solution that, can easily in clean those things away and access potential nooks and crannies. Very easy.

Jennifer Myers Chua: I do want to talk a little bit more about materials in your choices there, but I’d like to go further backwards into your life. Maybe before the good kind maybe before your first business but why is sustainability or why is going plastic free so important to you? Do you have a moment that stands out where you had this shift and when you decided you wanted to make change in this way?

Courtney Stewart: I think it was definitely over time. It had been, a journey that I would go in, come out of. But after having kids and just, shifting my mind in general to, know better and, and do better and everything, I, when, you know, when you have kids, it’s just about, they’re looking up to you, I’m responsible for this human, right. And I want to put out the best human I can. And so I want to embody and be a really good example for my kids. And, what better way to do that? Then, in the kitchen, doing the right thing for, for our home and for, our health and nutrition, but also for beyond that, unselfishly for the planet and for the world.

And so, choosing reusable products limiting containers and packaging and things like that, it all just over time, and I definitely in the last six years has become so important to me. And I hope to have made some change, even in my community. I’m like a big advocate for recycling. So I’m always encouraging. We have like little recycling competitions if you can only put out one black garbage bag, A week and like fill your recycling bins because it’s the way it should be really. And so, we’ve got people and got friends involved in our like gold box competitions with recycling and things like that. It’s something that it matters to me. And I can truly tell you that if I see somebody put like a plastic water bottle, which I don’t know why people use those anyway, but a single use water bottle in the garbage, it literally, I cringe. Like there’s something, it bothers me so much. And I think that’s just the person I become, I’m thinking about our footprint, what we’re doing, and what’s going to affect our kids and my grandkids when I’m not here. So I’ve got to, I’ve got to do something now. And I feel like this is what I can do now to help that. So, and hopefully encourage others around me to do the same.

I have not bought Ziploc bags in years. It was a goal of mine, I think by the end of 2019 to have like a plastic free kitchen. So we don’t have any plastic cups or plastic dishware, you know, all that trendy, the colorful stuff, the kids always want to go get it. But we’ve really moved away and obviously it’s caused me a lot of glass dishes over the years and cups. But hopefully our line we’ll fill that in soon, but yeah, I have a plastic free kitchen, so everything everything that our food touches is either stainless or glass. So something I’m very proud of. It’s hard to do though. It’s hard and you got to work it out. But I’ve made sure when people come to my house with like a plastic container with food, I just send them back home. Like I can’t have plastic in my house.

Jennifer Myers Chua: You were working on closing your first business. What’s the story of coming up with the idea for this new business and how did you move this forward into something like create an actual product?

Courtney Stewart: I actually had always, when we thought about line extensions and what’s next with Nomi & Sibs my previous business, the labels, we thought, okay, we have the option to go into this personalization route or, we have a sustainable label. Maybe we can go on the sustainable products route. So this is always been in, circling in the back of my head. I think I was so deep and swallowed in the production of the labels and the complexity of the production of the product that I didn’t have the time to really think it through and to come up with a really good plan. When your back’s against the wall and things are really going badly, you’re forced to do that very quickly. But so I think the sustainable products was always in my, in the wheelhouse where it was working, but I wanted to add that personalization at that personalized touch to it. That was going to be our kind of point of differentiation. And then I we found other ways to do that because I knew personalization was not the avenue I wanted to go in anymore. So, it was something that I had been thinking about.

I felt like the changes we wanted to make to current products that were out there were enough. And I think hit the pain points that that customers were experiencing. It was something I was looking for. And so it felt really natural. I think my audience I think we had a mix of, modern moms wanting different types of products, but we also had moms who were a little bit more cautious about their spend and conscious and in terms of sustainable and reusable products. So. There was a good fit for our current audience. So it pivoted an idea that had already existed. But I felt like we needed a, more of a change. I wanted to change the name. I wanted to do some other things too. And change the, really the whole mission behind the brand and make it more of like a mission driven brand. And, and that’s the goal?

Jennifer Myers Chua: In terms of retail too. I think if anyone is listening to this with the idea of starting a brand, that’s based on personalization. That’s really difficult. If you want to then sell in retail stores, like you can think of those key chains at any tourist shop with names on it. My name is very easy to find. But anyone with a more unique name? He doesn’t have that option. And a retailer is not going to want to purchase something with a name that is maybe. Sold once every two years like it’s just not good business so personalization in terms of retail can be really really challenging

Courtney Stewart: It’s very hard, and we tried to go down that that avenue so many hours and months, like, planning some kind of retail strategy with hopes to get them as a, DTC compete customer in the end, but a lot of complexities and ordering and getting names and all that stuff at the retail level.

It, it was just at the end of the day, it was a business that presented a lot of challenges throughout the entire process. If somebody came to me and said, I’ve had people ask actually very disappointed that we stopped with the labels and say to me, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. Don’t worry. That’s amazing. But at the same time I’m thinking and myself, you just have no idea. And I think also too, because that wasn’t an area where I was an expert in and being a mom of two little kids and in the situation I’m in with you, my husband, and he’s got very long hours of work.

He puts in every single day, not having much help there. I didn’t have the time to be going and learning new skillsets. I knew I already brought skillsets that I could contribute to a business and, learning those other things about printers and graphics and all that stuff. It wasn’t right for me at the time. I felt very strongly about stopping, but if you’re a creator and you could see yourself on Etsy, and if that’s what you’re passionate about, I would not say don’t do it. I would just say, think it through in terms of scaling and what you want long term because it’s challenging personalization definitely is challenging.

Jennifer Myers Chua: I’ve been following your business for years, your first business. And another thing that you ran into that I’m assuming was a huge challenge. And I have seen this so many times with other small businesses. Is that at some point a larger Canadian company put out a product that was remarkably similar to yours. Like almost indistinguishable. And. I know that must’ve been a big challenge. And it’s something that small business owners face a lot. I was wondering if you were willing to comment on that situation. And did it have any impact on the decision to pivot into a new business?

Courtney Stewart: It definitely did not have an impact to pivot. I think if anything I felt like we got a lot of really great support from customers. Like people who hadn’t even bought the product, our product before just wanting to support. Cause they were, it was relatable in terms of, a mother just trying to, start something new or, make a living sort of thing. And so I felt people felt They want to support that about good for them to do so. So I think if anything, it fueled it helped us. It definitely, for me that owner at that business, she was a mom she’s led a lot of kids. And I know in the early days of that business, it was a hard struggle and, to see that being done it rubbed me the wrong way as an entrepreneur. And as in the position I was in, but at the same time, that’s business, it’s, it sucks. And I was mad. I was angry. And I think you maybe could have done something differently, but I think that in, in hindsight it’s business and I don’t think it’s a big part of their business. I might be wrong, but I don’t think so. But. Those are the things that you’re going to have to face, and I’ll have to face this with this product as well. Cause there are other international brands or us based brands that are doing similar things. I hope that I’m doing it a little bit differently.

Our message and our mission and the community we want to create is a little bit more unique. And so that will help us stand out. But, there are bigger brands with bigger, deeper pockets that can come in and, they can make their way. So those are the things that we’re always going to have to deal with. If anything, I think that situation prepared me for probably what’s to come and they will never stop coming. But as an entrepreneur, it didn’t make me want to give up. It made me want to show that we can move past this and you can get past this. So any, aspiring entrepreneur, anybody who’s been presented with challenges of people within a region or a community or something, doing something similar, find a way to be different and continue setting yourself apart as a business. And, you can get through it.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Another thing that surprised me about that situation was that generally in terms of the Canadian entrepreneur community, specifically the woman entrepreneurs. They’re very supportive and very mindful. Of collaboration. I remember that with Nomi and sieves, you did a partnership with Nicks and some Canadian influencers. And I’m wondering how that came to be and is there anything that you learned from that experience that’s going to help you building your new business?

Courtney Stewart: Absolutely. So, yes, that was a collaboration with Knix and the Bird’s papaya. And Tisch jewelry was also part of it. Actually, Sarah, we in the atilier gift bag and she was a speaker, so she received our product. And then she did a unsolicited, shout out thanking us for that gift. Cause they were personalized. They had her children’s names on the labels and whatnot. And so she did that and we saw a huge lift that was wonderful. And then organically, we would keep in touch, I would engage with her and since social media and, Like she was really making a place in the last year. When things were happening with the black lives matter movement, and if you follow Sarah Landry, I feel like she’s a, when I know better, I want to do better kind of person she’s, she’s trying, sometimes too much to be something for everybody, but she’s very inclusive. I feel like her heart is there. You see her growth over the last couple of years, so it happened organically with us kind of chatting during those times. And then when I got the email from Knix it was at a time where, it was a low point in terms of, what was I going to do? We are having so many issues with production and everything. And so, Maintain your relationships as much as you can. I know it’s difficult, but networking is very important. And even maintaining connections and contact, you never know how those things are gonna, help you and uplift you in your business and in life, in the future. And so I think that’s a huge learning. I think going through the collaboration process was really great too. Working back and in, in communication with that corporate environment that I had been out of for so long and seeing how that works and I think it’s totally changed as well. But it was a great experience.

I hadn’t totally made the decision that at the end of that year, we’re gonna be wrapping up the labels. But I feel like looking back, it was a really nice exit from that, from that business. We wrapped up a couple months later and it was a great send off. We had our best year in terms of sales and, so our exposure was up there. We got shout outs from other top influencers. It was a gift, a little gift send off of Nomi and sibs.

Jennifer Myers Chua: So when you went to develop your new product line, can you talk to me a little bit about finding a manufacturer or what kind of materials you chose? I’d love to explore how you made those decisions.

Courtney Stewart: In looking at developing these products for the past, year and a half we had already been in conversations with partner manufacturers that we’ve worked with at the labels who are using premium, either FDA approved or the LFG B approved tested materials as far as our silicone products are concerned. And so they had connections with with other manufacturer on the stainless side that kind of helped linked, linked us together, and they were able to even work together. And so that was definitely beneficial because going through that manufacturing hunt surgery per manufacturer is very difficult because. The way that, they may come off and they may perceive to be can be very different from, what is actually going on. And it was a hard time to do this because we couldn’t go over there and we do manufacture in China. So we can’t go over there. We can’t travel. So we really put our trust in our silicone label manufacturers to help lead us in that direction and work with that new manufacturer to create the lunchbox.

we developed a really good relationship with our label manufacturer over the last few years and felt confident in that. We could trust them and we’ve been very happy, very lucky now all situations work out that way. But but at some point you kinda, you gotta have some trust.

Jennifer Myers Chua: I took a look at your website in the product descriptions of the new lunch boxes, which are made of stainless steel. And some of your new messaging and it’s very much focused on non-toxic rather than being focused on those terms that we’re seeing now all the time, like BPA free, that if you’ve been listening to this podcast, you know, generally don’t mean much because everyone’s just slapping that on a label now these days, whether it’s true or not. About that messaging. Are there any insights into how you’re communicating the safety and health benefits of your products?

Courtney Stewart: It kills me when people say BPA free and it’s been, and now it’s used as a marketing, a marketing thing. So parents are proceeded to think that, oh, it’s BPA free. And that’s the headline it’s BPA free, unfortunately, and it’s not the parents’ fault or anybody else’s, but that’s one of hundreds of toxins or chemicals that are used in these products. And so to eliminate that great, that’s the one that they’ve taken out, but there are still others and in plastics. And even honestly, there are different grades of stainless as well. And so we are using a 3 0 4 grade stainless steel, which is a premium approved for food contact level, stainless steel, and it’s different from what you would find, at a, $1 store, $2 store, something like that. That’s a different kind of stainless steel. It’s not the same. People don’t, they don’t see that. They see a product that kind of looks similar. A stainless steel water bottle, you get the dollar. So it was very different than when they buy from a brand. That has put the research in and put the education, then the testing, and gone through those steps to ensure that they’re offering a high quality, healthy, safe product into the marketplace. And so, that’s something that’s really important to me if I’m not going to use it in my own family, if I’m not willing to expose my own children to it, I would never, introduce it to the marketplace. I’m very strict with what we bring into our house. So, it was important if there was a best, we were gonna bring it into this product and this whole line really

Jennifer Myers Chua: It’s such a challenge for us as consumers, as people who are trying to make better choices when it comes to. Things like that, the things that may be toxic and that inconsistent labeling is part of the challenge. A couple episodes back. We met with Emma Rohmann who’s a toxic expert. And she talked about how substitutions are happening. So if there’s a regulation and they take something out like BPA they’re removing BPA, they’re replacing it with something else. That they have waiting. That may just be just as dangerous, but it’s currently not something that we’re immediately aware of and maybe it’s something that’s not currently illegal or whatnot. It’s a real challenge and i appreciate that you’re going for the broad stroke of non-toxic and you’re actually doing all you can to make sure that is true. i appreciate that

Courtney Stewart: I feel like. That’s the way that BPA free has been thrown around on packaging and labels. It’s actually very sad. It’s very disappointing. We don’t put BPA free. I think there’s an assumption. We’re saying no toxins right? Here, platinum. The highest levels of, pure silicone, no fillers, no additives, none of that stuff. And I think that BPA free thing is thrown around to it’s that extra. Oh, okay. It’s an extra kind of notch of approval that a parent will take in and feel like they they’re confident and, in, in that product and in some ways they are, in some ways it’s wonderful, like, and it works out there.

It’s BPA free, which is great. It’s also, it doesn’t have other toxins, but in a lot of cases, you’re right. It’s just the BPA that they pulled out and they’ve said student was something else. And so something cheaper, another filler and whatnot. And it it’s, I feel like it’s, it’s unfair to parents in the marketplace because goodness, we have so many things that we’re trying to do well.

And, trying to raise these good humans and we’re putting our faith and, to these labels and packaging and things like that and want to be able to trust. And, a lot of the times we’re getting duped by these brands and manufacturers. Unfortunately,

Jennifer Myers Chua: Have you come across anything in your research about the environmental impact of our lunch packing habits? I guess we’re not even a brown paper bag, lunch culture anymore. We’re more like a Ziploc bag or a sandwich bag. Did you find anything surprising?

Courtney Stewart: I can’t even think of it, but it’s something like like 30 million lunch bags, like Ziploc bags are used in a year or something. It’s more than that because it would be more than that, I’ve got to find the number, but the amount of plastic single use Ziploc type bags that are used and then thrown out in the impact that has is staggering is absolutely staggering. So when you think of that, in terms of all the different things that you put in a lunch I find that when you have something like a. A lunchbox that has, different sections, maybe as a parent, instead of buying the yogurt in, 30 individual containers, maybe we just buy the one container and you scoop it from there.

So even making a simple swap like that, it’s impactful. Imagine everybody doing that, getting that bulk tub. And so instead of sending those single ones all the time, I really want to get through to people that it doesn’t have to be these huge shifts in your life. It can just be, one little thing that when you think about it, in terms of everybody doing one little thing, the impact is ginormous. And so, the numbers on even the single. Plastic bags and things like that. It’s staggering. Staggering. It makes you, you definitely think twice we put things in the garbage and filling up that garbage every week. Yeah, it’s staggering.

Jennifer Myers Chua: One of my favorite questions to ask founders about looking back at this moment that you’re in right now. I love to ask. If there was a moment. Where you said, Hey, people are responding to this. I know this is going to happen. Have you hit that moment yet?

Courtney Stewart: We sent off the labels with a bang, I felt really good. I felt confident about whatever I decide to do. I did feel really confident. And as much as I believe like this is going to work, I think the goals that I’ve set and the things that I want to do and, the impact I want to make it has to work, it has to work, but I’m not going to lie Jenn. Like there are days where, as an entrepreneur, like the highs are so high and literally the lows are garbage, low. Like they are landfill garbage, low. That’s very hard. And trying to navigate those ups and downs, while trying to be everything in your business, to everyone who needs you in your business and outside of your business and, in your personal life, it’s hard. So, I don’t have doubts that this is going to be great. I think, yeah. It’s getting there and staying in a clear mental state because the roller coaster of entrepreneurship, it can, it gives you turns and twists and you gotta be able to keep it straight, navigate them and keep it straight. So, I think if there’s heart and there’s passion and great products, it might take time, but it will succeed.

I think I I’m used to hard work in terms of growing up and a family filled with athletes and very successful. My, all my siblings are very successful. As an athletic scholarship. I did, I did my power, in, in that way I have this kind of be the best at whatever you’re going to be attitude. So I think the biggest surprise. So yes, working hard and being seasoned for something like this because I’ve been in training mode my whole life. But there’s nothing more, and I don’t know if it was necessarily a surprise but a shocker, in terms of. The commitment that entrepreneurship and having your own business and maybe it was the timing of it along with my tabbing, small kids, the sacrifice, the things that you’re going to have to miss. I think people glamorize entrepreneurship in terms of you run your own business and you come and go, as you want. And it’s great. You show up, half day Friday. and sure you could do that. But the reality of it is that, you’re in your business, in the early days, it’s all the time. Especially as an online e-commerce brand, people are expecting you to get back to them immediately.

And so I think a big shocker was, although I was, trained my whole life to be a very hard worker and to work, tirelessly. This entrepreneurial journey is exhausting. It is, and it will, it tests, it tests you it tests everybody, it tests your whole family, everybody in my family is impacted by it. And so it’s hard. It’s hard. It’s, it’s definitely it harder than I would have even imagined, but, it will push you. It will grow you, it will challenge you in ways that you never thought possible. And for me, I think it’s made me a better person and made me a better parent in a lot of ways. I don’t always think that in the moment, but yeah, the amount of work and time and commitment and the sacrifice and all the things that you miss out on, even your family and, that’s been a big shocker. Very hard.

Jennifer Myers Chua: Do you have any other ways that you’re planning to use this business to support any other kind of change?

Courtney Stewart: We haven’t actually announced this, but we are working on some kind of certification supporting other organizations and we have a few already in in the works, but the goal is going to be like 5% of our proceeds are all going to go to other things, the B certification that ocean movements there’s a few things that are high priorities. And then a couple that we’re determining, what’s the best fit, but definitely want the benefits that we reap in the business in terms of sales and profits, to be able to share that with other organizations that are also trying to do the right thing and other groups and young minority aspiring entrepreneur, things like that, that, it again, that it feels really good to give back when you can. It’s going to be something that that we’ll announce, hopefully by the end of the year, once those things are confirmed, but it’s a must in the business for sure. To be able to give back, especially to groups that are trying to inspire change as well.

Jennifer Myers Chua: And what about other black owned businesses? BIPOC creators. Do you feel that there’s been a shift in the marketplace? Like, do you feel that people are using their dollars to support maybe businesses owned by marginalized people or anything like that. I’m wondering if you have anything to comment about that shift and if you see anything changing?

Courtney Stewart:  I definitely think that there is a shift, of all the kind of ugly that’s come out of a lot of things recently. I think that there’s also some good and there’s been openings and some big organizations have stepped up in big ways, to help support BIPOC minority, underserved groups, and entrepreneurship. There’s definitely been a shift and I think consumers are more educated now than ever to kind of search around, search around for options. And, I think people are dedicated to supporting small businesses, supporting local businesses and, That includes, BIPOC owned businesses. I think people deeply care, I really do. You have to feel, you have to think that you have to believe, and I think people want to see good. They want to see change. And in order to see change, you’ve got to support different types of businesses operated by different minorities and, LGBT Black community Brown community, Chinese, everything, all those businesses are just as important. But it’s also finding a way to bring light and expose these businesses in terms of, making them more visible. Yeah, I do see a change. I see a change. I think it’s going to be a slow shift, but I do see a change and I hope that only continues.

Jennifer Myers Chua: So if you’re interested in conscious consumerism and you’ve gotten to this place. What’s a resource that you would recommend to someone who’s starting to explore this? Explore making different choices. Where should they start?

Courtney Stewart: There is a blog called zero waste Canada, I believe . I learned so much from, she has this blog, she has so much education, so much knowledge on her blog and even on her Instagram. People know at the end of the day, when they’re putting that water bottle in the garbage, that it’s not where it should be going, but she shares also the other side of it and the impact and and breaks it down from the impact to also, the impact it has on you and your health and, the toxins. So just a wealth of knowledge. She is somebody who has definitely devoted her life to, living this way and deaf amplifies conscious brands. And so I definitely think that is a great place to start. And then from there, it’ll just spiral because everybody’s following her and everybody who has, those goals in mind for their business or for themselves personally, they’re watching what she’s doing and listening to what she’s saying.

Jennifer Myers Chua: There are people like you and I who are looking to make a difference in our own homes. And then also looking to make a difference in the communities and people are supporting your products. They’re purchasing those, and you’ve seen more support coming for BIPOC creators and women owned businesses. So I’d just like to know with all of that in mind how hopeful are you for the future?

Courtney Stewart: I’m very hopeful for the future. I see. Great things coming. I believe in myself, I believe in people wanting to be better, to do better, to shop better, to support businesses that are trying to do the right thing. you can only want people around you to, other citizens to want, the good for everybody. And so that involves, being a conscious consumer, not overbuying buying, when you need, I even say with our. When you’re in the market for don’t just go buy it. Cause you, you don’t, cause you want it when you’re in the market for, because listen, there’s another box that, has been working for you or, if it’s not then sure if you want to replace it, but that’s just going to end up in the landfill too. And that’s what we don’t want either. I believe, I believe people want to do better. They want to be better. They want to be The Good Kiind.

I’m very passionate. So when I care about something a lot, I come off very pushy, I guess you can call it, very, but it’s just, it’s just coming from a place of just really caring and wanting someone to feel it like, feel the way I feel it. I don’t want to come across and that I’m not perfect even in our home, I’m not, I’ve got work to do. But I wanna, go along this journey with our customers and our community, because it is a journey. It’s not something that you flip the switch and it happens. Small changes can make a big impact.

I think it’s since having kids and, all the toys and the, the unnecessary, packaging and the toys that literally just end up in the garbage it’s painful, it is painful to me. And it really bothers me. I just really tried to limit those things but the amount of mindless consumerism, that’s happening. Then I say mindless. I mean, people are just buying, buying, buying don’t need, like, if you stop and ask yourself, Is it good for me? Is it good for the planet? And do I need this? Do I need this? If you would put down probably 75% of the things that you pick up. So, I wish people would and you would save so much money. You would save so much money. So, I’m hoping that we can help people shift in that direction a little bit by a little bit less use what you have and make the best of it. I’ll tell you one thing. With our manufacturer, our lunch pails, when they’re open in the box, they were supposed to be sleeved with like a, with a paper sleeve and they didn’t, they did it with a plastic sleeve, it was so painful bothered me and it still bothers me, but it doesn’t make sense to go reproduce something else to put it in it and to make all those changes.

But that, and obviously the footprint of something like that is far less, however, it’s something that when you think of it, in terms of McDonald’s and these big brands producing hundreds of thousands weekly, probably, it really adds up. So we’re not perfect either, and we’re trying to do this right. We stumble on the way to, and that, and it was, a miss at the quality control level at our manufacturer. And so, small steps, small steps do better next time.

If you want to learn more about Courtney and her endlessly reusable, mealtime essentials for families on the go visit thegoodkiind.com [kind with two ii] looking for litter proof lunch solutions for back to school, they are available to order now. You can follow along with Courtney on her mission to help you sustainably and mindfully tackle life with littles. On Facebook at thegoodkiind or Instagram at @bethegoodkiind

 

Highlights from episodes 1-10 & Live More Sustainably or Socially Responsible With Tips You Can Take Now.

In today’s episode, we’re going to do something a little different and revisit the last ten episodes, The first 10 episodes of the podcast, focusing on the highlights. The moments where I learned really eye-opening from each guest, but we’ve also included some moments that you, the listeners have commented on were really inspiring. So if you missed an episode or you are just discovering this project? This is a great way to get an overview of what we’ve learned so far and see which episodes you may want to go back to and listen to. I also share some of the actionable tips from the episodes to help make thoughtful choices as a consumer.

if you want to live a more sustainable life, if you want to use your business or buying power to give back, or if you just want to learn about really, really great brands doing really, really interesting things. This is the place to be.

Featuring

• Rebecca Saha from Tiny Toy Co.
• Maran Stern Kubista from My Kindness Calendar
• Kimberlee West from Kids Swag
• Jennifer Myers Chua from Hip Mommies
• April Mackinnon from Anointment
• Lisa Nguyen from Baubles + Soles
• Megan Takeda-Tully from Suppli
• Melita Cyril from Q for Quinn
• Emma Rohmann from Green at Home
• Sheena Russell from Made With Local

Episode Transcript

 

Jennifer Myers Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 11.

On today’s episode, we’re going to do something a little different and revisit the last 10 episodes.  The first 10 episodes of the podcast, focusing on the highlights. These are the moments where I learned something really eye-opening from each guest, but we’ve also included some moments that you, the listeners have commented were really inspiring.  So if you missed an episode or if you’re just discovering this project, this is a great way to get an overview of what we’ve learned so far and see which episodes you may want to go back to and listen.  I’ll also be sharing some of the actionable tips we learned from each episode.  To help make thoughtful choices as a consumer. And if you want to live a more sustainable life, or if you want to use your business or buying power to give back.  Or if you just want to learn about really, really, really great brands doing some really, really, really interesting things. This is the place to be.

 In the very first episode, episode one, we meet Rebecca Saha. She’s a kindergarten teacher and the founder of Tiny Toy Co.  With her business, Rebecca repurposes tiny plastic toys that would otherwise go into landfill into educational kits.

 And part of Rebecca’s mission is to encourage children to do things differently and become a different kind of consumer.  And through her upcycled educational kits and her hands-on educational workshops. Rebecca is taking her background in early childhood education and her commitment to sustainability and doing just that.

In this episode, Rebecca had a lot to share about good intentions, why we need to be mindful as consumers about what we are buying.  And were items like those drive-thru toys will actually go if we donate them. But one thing that Rebecca touched on that really stood out to me. Was about upcyclers.  The businesses that use found or donated materials.  And repurpose those into other goods. And if we can see the benefits of a circular economy, that’s one thing. But in order for this to really work.  We need to purchase these upcycled goods, even if at a higher cost, because donating our unwanted materials isn’t enough.

 Rebecca Saha: There’s this presumption that the way to help these businesses, that the way to help the movement. It is to contribute your, your junk, contribute your stuff. And while that’s important, too, the best way that you can help them movement is to buy the end product until we shop differently. Nothing’s going to change  if you give me your bags and bags of toy junk, and you feel great about the fact that it’s going to be reused instead of going to landfill. That’s amazing. But if you follow that by heading to the toy store or the dollar store  one or the takeout lane and refilling it up, refilling your playroom with the same junk, with the same stuff at the same volume, then then you haven’t interrupted the cycle, you’ve perpetuated the cycle.  And so I think what’s really important for for the movement, the reuse movement, the upcycling movement to succeed is for people to support it  financially at the at the other end.  people need to purchase things differently  as well as contributing to the, to the intake of the circular businesses.

 Jennifer Myers Chua: When working on this episode, I think I was most astonished to learn that McDonald’s gives out 1.5 billion toys in their happy meals each year. And if you’re choosing the book alternative, which is what we’ve done in the past, Note that, that plastic wrapping on the books that contributes to hundreds of tons of plastic a year as  well it’s just a lot of waste.

 And if you want to take action, now, here are some tips from this episode.

1. Be mindful of what tiny breakable plastics you bring into your home. Noting that most can not be recycled.
2. Consider eco-friendly alternatives to loot bags or get the upcycled ones like tiny toy Co.’s ReLoot bag.
3. Look for upcycled alternatives to things that you need for your home. There are some clever and sustainable solutions out there. It may take a little more digging. But you can get things even like countertops made from old chopsticks. 

Maran Stern Kubista was also looking for an alternative to tiny plastic toys or sugary treats. And we meet her in episode two.

Maran wanted to give her children that advent calendar experience without all of the treats. And taking inspiration for moments in her life when she experienced kindness. Maran developed a countdown style calendar focused on giving back.

Her brand is called My Kindness Calendar and her acts of kindness are meaningful, beautiful, even, and you never know the impact that something’s going to make on someone short-term or long-term, it’s powerful. Maran is growing the brand into one that supports children year round with mindfulness activities that cultivate kindness.  And because she says kids are awesome open, and these kinds of activities are particularly important after all they’ve been through over the last couple of years in this pandemic.

Maran Stern-Kubista: “I am always. Aware of the potential of kids. I’m never surprised to see kids doing amazing things because I think that’s the default. Like I think the default is you’re awesome. And you’re amazing. Now, like we, as society and  in our culture, like we just need to enable that. We need to create opportunity for kids to be amazing because they’re so creative and like they’re so intrinsically, there’s so much good there, that it just needs to be fostered and released, and everyone is going to develop into the people they’re meant to be. But when we can do our part of, giving them opportunity and encouraging them when they do positive things and helping them understand when things are challenging. And when different choices could be made in challenging moments, like that’s just. Enabling them to, live through their potential. So I’m for sure hopeful and talk about resilience, what kids are going through right now. There’s no doubt that it’s having a humongous cost on everybody’s mental health, like parents and kids.  This is the story of life, right? People go through things that they should never have to go through that are super challenging. And that can be really deflating and it can be very upsetting and it can also be, a chance. I choose to see difficult moments as an opportunity to really build resilience.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: This episode had me considering my own traditions, particularly surrounding the holidays.  And Maran pointed out how early children understand the concept of receiving gifts. And then that expectation of gifts at certain occasions.  Giving to others and creating special opportunities for kindness. That is something that is more meaningful to me, but how have I been modelling this to my child? And how can we build more meaningful traditions around giving. It’s worth a thought.

Want to take action now? It sounds simple, but the easiest thing you can do to spread kindness is to be kind.  Want to brighten someone’s day today. Here’s a tip. Maran says that one of the most popular of her kindness activities and the one that she sees shared most on social media is baking cookies and bringing them to a friend.

In episode three, we chat with Kimberlee West, who is someone that I have followed for a long time. Since the early days of her business Kids Swag. I’m endlessly impressed by Kimberlee and her shop. It’s a purpose-driven e-commerce brand and she’s built Kids Swag around the idea of mindful representation.  With her business, she’s made a big impact in the lives of BIPOC children who don’t generally see themselves represented in the toy aisle.  And out of all of the episodes featured here, I think this is the one where we learn most about the founder. Kimberlee digs deep into her past. Events that have shaped how she sees the world this way.  And we get a really good understanding of her. Why. Why she is on a mission to help raise confident kids that appreciate difference.

Kimberlee West: “I don’t think people recognize or understand the psychological impact of not seeing yourself. One of the things that I did as I delve more into Kids Swag was reading a lot more and I came across a study and it was saying by the age of three, and it happens earlier, but age three is quite pivotal by the age of three, your child is really understanding their world based off of race. So they’re categorizing people and giving them certain characteristics and traits. So this, basically, this is the beginning of stereotyping at age three. And so you can imagine if in that period of time, they haven’t seen themselves, they’re also characterizing themselves as being something that’s less than, or not really part of the world that they’re in.”

“If it is a child that’s white and they’re seeing themselves, then it makes it that much harder for them to, even as they get older for them to acknowledge or understand the pain, that probably someone that doesn’t look like them has experienced their whole life because in their world, it will be a feeling of like, why does race matter? It’s not really a construct. Why can’t we all be the same? They’ve had the luxury of being able to identify as just being themselves more so than being white.”

 Jennifer Myers Chua: This episode had so many light bulb moments and so many things that. I haven’t considered as a white woman or a white business owner or a mother, even though I’m raising a multi-racial child. And Kimberlee has a really special gift when it comes to marketing and how she engages her community, her customers are instant ambassadors for her brand. I just adore Kimberlee’s approach.

And I really appreciate the stories that she told in this episode. It’s, it’s really worth the listen. And if you want to take action, now, here are some tips from this episode. 

1. All of us, have the opportunity to teach our children to be open and celebrate differences. A great way to start fill your home library with books, featuring a variety of voices and stories from people all over the world.
2. Want to see representation in the toy aisle? Speak up large brands are beginning to take notice and make changes based on consumer demand.
3. If you’re a creator or a curator, you need to be mindful of bias in product design and shop curation too.

In episode four, I spoke a bit about Hip Mommies and how we came to be and why we’ve made some of the choices that we have. In the past seven years, we’ve taken our distribution business into a brand new direction.  Putting the planet and our communities first, when making decisions. It’s been a long road, filled with a lot of learnings and our business just turned 17.  And I share a number of things that we learned along the way.  Particularly in the last seven years since I’ve been involved. And I won’t go into the recap here, but if you’re interested in rebuilding a business, or family business dynamics or value-based business, or even the world of product based business or the baby products industry. It’s all in this episode. 

But to leave you with one thing, do your research.  Make sure what you were buying is tested, safe, authentic, all of that. And if you don’t have the time. Shop with a reputable seller. Who does that work for you? Sustainability, safety. It’s all very expensive. So if a deal sounds too good to be true. It just might be.

April McKinnon from Anointment is who we meet in episode five. She’s been making handmade personal care products in the Maritimes for over 12 years.  She bought her business, a farmer’s market soap company. And she had some really interesting insights to share about that. About buying a business and if it was a good investment over just starting a business on her own. And over the years, April has made a lot of changes and some mistakes. And she’s now the owner of a thriving, natural skincare brand. Which is available across Canada and in some larger natural retailers, like whole foods.

April’s a former environmental engineer and her homestead and Apiary are on this incredibly beautiful marshland in the east coast of Canada. So she also had a lot to share about how she’s inspired by that unique landscape. And how her business really interacts with the natural world. She also very bravely shared that her time spent in the NICU with her daughter with critical illness was the inspiration to give back and that the PPE and the waste created during that stay was something that had really stuck with her and helped create the values that this business is based on. But what got me about this episode was that April talks about the value chain. About how she sources her ingredients, why she chooses the partner she does  and what that means to us as conscious consumers, when we are deciding between two potential purchases.

April MacKinnon: “I’m a huge proponent of relationship-based business. Shea butter is a great example. I work with a with a supplier that purchases directly from a women’s co-op in Ghana. And so you can see from their videos and from their newsletters what’s happening in the village where the Shea butter is produced. The fact that the women there have been able to send their children to school because this is the income that they are making from selling the Shea butter. And so. I really like that for the social responsibility aspect. For someone starting out. You really have to define your, define your ethics, define your values within your business and don’t deviate. So spending time thinking about those things is really important. I think, there are some companies who for whom success is measured by bottom line and to other companies for whom success is measured in their work-life balance and other people for whom success is measured by something else completely. So knowing that is often enough to drive how you decide to purchase.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Want to take action now? Here are some tips from this episode.

1. Number one. Look online before you buy. Sites like EWG allow you to look in the potential safety risks of personal care products. Now these databases are not perfect. But they can give you some insight into what ingredients are in the products you’re using. Look at the ingredients though, not the verified label, because those are paid opportunities. So just be mindful of that.
2. Passionate about a particular cause? April’s brand supports women through pregnancy postpartum through a number of ways. It’s possible to shop with a brand who have great products and values that align with yours.
3. If you’re in business or looking to start a business, it’s tempting to make something for everyone.  But April points out that it’s best to define your ethics, define your values within your business. And don’t deviate. And over the years, April’s offering has gotten smaller and more focused.  She suggests niching down, niching down and niching down again.

In episode six, we chatted with Lisa Ngyuen from Baubles + Soles. Lisa’s toddler shoes are made of this innovative material of sea salt and soy that are a hundred percent recyclable. And with interchangeable, baubles, really cute hearts and animals and things like that.  You can give the shoe a completely new look with just a twist. Additional features like water resistance, make bubbles and souls incredibly multipurpose and makes them.  Really the top choice of anyone looking to buy less shoes for their little one.

 In this episode, Lisa also gave us a bit of insight into building her business and making it onto shark tank. And she also chats about her heart and souls fund giving back program, which was inspired by her childhood as a refugee. And then time spent in Southeast Asia doing pro bono legal work for stateless peoples. What I found interesting about this conversation.  Was Lisa’s insight into domestic manufacturing.  Lower carbon footprint, less shipping. Greater chance that the workers are being paid fairly. And less chance of environmental catastrophes. Our laws are just stricter here in north America. But often time businesses go overseas right away, because they don’t think there is another option or that it can be cost effective to manufacture close to home.

Lisa Nguyen: “I was doing this research when we were preparing for Shark Tank and one of the things that a CEO that I was working with at the time she pointed out, listen, your effective margins is actually better than if you had manufactured it overseas. And here she is talking about the turnaround time for this product, the time that it, so you have to pay for these products, but then it sits at sea for a month before it gets to, to America. And also like we have the ability to maybe place a lower MOQ minimum order quantity when it’s made here domestically, because it doesn’t have to go so far. When you manufacture off shore, you have to plan out your inventory 6 to 12 months in advance, and then you order accordingly and then your cash goes out, as, as you’re waiting for it to come in. So in actual fact, your margins, like the margins is actually higher than you realize because of the amount of time that it takes and how much money you have sitting in inventory. And then you have to sell out of the inventory. For us here. We have the flexibility of a lower MOQ minimum order quantity and so then our effective margin is actually I think if not lower than the same as if we had chosen to make it. Off shore. If you think about the cost of goods sold and there maybe you add marketing, because  people feel good about that. And, and people feel like quality is there because it is made here. So then that’s actually a little bit of marketing funds that’s already built into the product.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Less than 0.1% of shoes purchased in north America are made in north America. And the majority of shoes sold north America are not recyclable. Many shoe brands that claim recyclability are really just. Taking shoes back and redistributing them. Meaning they’re donated to populations overseas. So that’s a lot of international travel for just one pair of shoes.  Top tips from this episode. 

1. look for multi-purpose shoes for your little one. Toddlers and preschoolers may go through two sizes and six or more pairs of shoes per size in a year.
2. Another thing to look for with kids shoes, machine washable, some shoes are made with plastics and glues that don’t hold up well in the washing machine. And kid’s shoes get dirty.

 In episode seven, we met with Megan Takeda-Tully from Suppli.  episode was fascinating and really eyeopening.  We talked about how much takeout waste is actually created, how that waste is managed and what the environmental and health effects are from our obsession with convenience. And I think out of all of the last 10 episodes, this is the one that effect my habits in my personal life the most. And if you haven’t already listened to this one, it’s worth it. Because if you get takeout at all, it’s, it’s worth a listen.

 The plastic waste from takeout. It’s extreme. Because even before the pandemic. In Canada alone, we were already throwing out 3 million tons of plastic waste. And only 9% of that is actually recycled. The majority of our takeout containers are still made of styrofoam and black plastic. Both of which are not recyclable in most parts of the country. So it ends up in landfills. Along with billions of plastic utensils and about 29,000 tons of plastic food waste ends up in our natural environment. We find it in forests, washed up on beaches, stuff like that. So Megan is taking on a really huge issue.

Who is responsible? Is it on us as the consumer? The restaurants were choosing the styrofoam. Or should our municipalities get involved? Giving subsidies for alternatives?

 Megan Takeda-Tully:  “a lot of people assume that because restaurants are using single use containers that. They don’t care about the environment and that that’s not a priority for them. The reality is, is that the restaurant business is so cost sensitive. It’s such a low margin business.  Despite wanting to do what they can for the environment, sometimes even the more environmentally friendly single use option. They’re too expensive for some of these restaurants. Right. And if it’s between like surviving or not, then they kind of have to survive. But if there’s an alternative that works with them as Suppli aims to do and really partner and understand what their pain points are and try and solve those in a way that’s cost-effective for them and really that we have buy-in from them on the model. I think  there’s a lot to be gained there.”

“One of the other surprising pieces of of kind of building Suppli and everything that I hadn’t really counted on is is how much individuals care about this and want it to succeed?  I think that now we’re building much more community and it’s not just, zero wasters, it’s, it’s a community that supports each other to  help build this momentum. And I think that’s awesome. And it’s so, so refreshing and energizing and. That’s something that I really hadn’t anticipated,  the willingness of our consumer base to give feedback and help us build this. Because that was my intention from the beginning. It’s a service and product service that is built from the grassroots up. And I think that’s the way to form these sorts of initiatives. And I think that sets you up well for building something that really tackles the issues that people are, are seeing.”  

Jennifer Myers Chua: Top tips from this episode.

1. If you’re in Toronto, please sign up for Suppli. Megan is on a very important mission, and this is an easy and affordable way to make big impact.  If not seek out restaurants that are using reusable containers or that will pack your food into a container that you’ve brought.
2. Avoid takeout containers. If you can. The forever chemicals that keep these waterproof are leaching into our waterways and bloodstreams and causing a lot of problems.
3. Make noise. Tell your local restaurants that you want an alternative call your city councillor because this is really an area that we need to take. Action.

Melita from Q for Quinn is our guest in episode eight. After an impressive career in the financial world.  Melita followed her father’s footsteps into the world of entrepreneurship. Creating organic cotton basics like socks for children.  Initially, she was concerned about toxins and dyes that were causing her son to have eczema. But now the focus of the business is more than that. Melita’s factories are OEKO-TEX certified. And she uses GOTScertified cotton.  In this episode, we learn what all of that means and why it’s so important. And Melita also touches on her giveback program as well, where she donates meals to children in the developing world. And in this episode, we talk all about organics, fast fashion. What’s really in our clothes, who’s making them and Melita explains externalities, which is a concept in economics. That explains how we determine the true cost of a product.

Melita Cyril:  “And this is exactly the challenge I find, being a business owner, Trying to create the best possible product. But it ends up being at a much higher cost than, an alternative. I wouldn’t even say competition because it’s not the same product. It’s more of an alternative, right. I have an undergraduate degree in economics and I won’t get into. Too much of the jargon. But I, I will try to explain this. You might understand the concept of  this demand and supply curve intersecting in order to get to the free market price of, of something it’s called lean equilibrium. What happens if the demand curve or the supply curve is not accurate? It does not truly take into account. As far as the supply curve is concerned, the true cost of something. For the demand curve. You’ve got to look at it from a benefit perspective. So if the demand curve does not take into account, the true benefit of something. Or the supply curve does not take into account the true cost of something. You get the wrong price by society.”

“There is something called Externalities, which occurs when the full true cost or benefit of a market is not reflected in the market economics of it. So what that leads to is a wrong price. From a negative externalities perspective is the wrong price and overproduction.”

“And this is exactly the problem with fast fashion. It’s the same problem that we have with pollution. It’s the same concept. So with the supply curve for fashion in generalizing the market a little bit, I should just say for socks, if the cost doesn’t incorporate the social cost of the workers who have to produce were exposed to these pesticides and chemicals. If it doesn’t take into account the environmental costs off these pesticides and chemicals, then you’re going to get a lower price for the wrong price. And if you’re looking to source that that takes into account all of this, the sourcing price is going to be higher. And, and so that, that is exactly why if we pay attention to all this, we have to source at a higher cost and the price ends up being higher for a consumer. By buying a product, you are making sure you are paying the true cost of the product and not a lower cost where somebody else or even your own children end up paying the price for it.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Want to take action now? Here are some tips from this episode.

1. Look for GOTS certified organic cotton, especially if buying for anyone with skin issues or eczema.
2. If you’re choosing fast fashion because of the price. Consider things like cost per use, durable items can be used many more times. Are often available to be resold or passed on.
3. Consider the costs when you’re looking to make a purchase. You can reach out to brands and ask about their worker policies or how things are made.

Number nine. Emma Rhomann is a toxics expert. She helps people make greener, healthier choices in their homes. And because she’s been studying things like water systems and chemicals for decades. I wanted to ask her questions about all of the goods that we’re buying and bringing into our homes. Now this episode goes into all of the things that we never consider about what is in the goods that we are buying. But we also get into who is regulating what makes it onto the shelves. How that’s really a system that’s failing us at this moment. And how all of this affects us and our health in the longterm.

Emma Rohmann: “essentially environmental health or environmental medicine looks at the impact external factors have on our health. When it comes to consumer goods, we can think of them impacting our space. Everything that we are putting on our skin  has the potential to be absorbed. What we put in our air we breathe in and what’s in our food and our drink we ingest. So There’s three pathways and a lot of the kind of conversation around toxics got pushed to the side because most conventional practitioners would say, oh, well, the dose makes the poison. We don’t . Need to be concerned because there’s such small amounts and our bodies have detoxification systems. They’re not going to cause a health impact. Where environmental health comes into play, environmental medicine. we’re not just looking at isolated exposures to things. There are toxins, literally everywhere. At this point. It’s not about going toxin-free, we can’t, but it’s lowering the exposure as much as possible and supporting our body systems so that they can better handle what they can’t control. So when we think of the way that our environment affects our health, it is varied. And that’s what makes it such a challenging field of study because every body handles things differently, but essentially you can consider your body’s systems like a barrel. It’s a contained volume. And when we are exposed to certain toxins or stressors, this adds to our toxic load.  If your body systems cannot process these toxins and stressors fast enough at the rate that they’re coming in, they end up overflowing into our bloodstream into our bodies. Some of them get reabsorbed into our fat and it can cause cellular damage. It can cause hormone, disruption hormone disruption is one of the main things that I talk about because it is so widespread. We know that some toxins are contributing to cancer, asthma, and allergies. It’s vast.  But that’s the crux of how the environment affects us.”

 Jennifer Myers Chua: Top tips.

1. Emma suggests asking questions, reaching out to the manufacturer or the shop and ask about the ingredients. The manufacturers that have safety top of mind. They’re expecting this, they have the information available and they’re happy to help. 
2. Be mindful when shopping online, what you think you’re ordering might not be what shows up at your door. Counterfeits are rampant, especially online and counterfeiters cut corners to keep costs down. Skipping things like safety, fair wages and using cheaper and maybe toxic ingredients.
3. If you’re overwhelmed and you don’t know where to start. If you look at the show notes on thecostofgoodssold.com. You can link to Emma’s podcast and to her blog, where she gives actionable tips to make all of this less overwhelming.

Born and raised in one of my favourite places in the world. Prince Edward Island. I’ve been wanting to meet Sheena Russell for ages. And I finally get to in episode 10.  Her popular snack food brand Made With Local is everywhere in Canadian grocery stores. Her bars are delicious, nutritious, and Sheena is like the model of someone who has taken social entrepreneurship. Seriously.  Her innovative business model creates impact in so many ways. It influences how she sources ingredients. Who she partners with and who makes and packages the bars.

 Now I loved how Sheena claims her business. Doesn’t have this traditional founder story with this aha moment. Instead she remained open and all of these experiences, these opportunities have kind of fallen into her lap. It’s been serendipitous.  Like fate, and it’s a great story.

Our conversation led to a moment where Sheena had to shift her mindset. I’ve had a similar shift with my own business. And this mindset is about big box or big grocery.  It’s tempting as a small business to make all of your sales to small businesses and independence and support that. But if you’re really, truly. But if you’re truly looking to make an impact. Mass retail might be the place to go.  Because every time that Sheena sells a pallet of goods to Costco, She supporting that many more Canadian farmers. And the workers in her social impact bakery. Every dollar spent with the big box is a dollar that’s going directly back into our community.

Sheena Russell:  “our bars are all handmade in partnership with social enterprise bakeries that help to train and employ folks who are living with some type of disability or barrier to the mainstream workforce. They’re actually producing these products right. And it creates  this beautiful ripple effect out into  their lives, their families, their communities. So with that, like those two things married, which is the, what it’s made of and the, how it’s made produces this product that has this like very quantifiable, very real social impact that, that goes out in all directions.  I value this and our thousands and thousands of Canadian customers value this, because  they want to nourish their bodies with foods that align with their personal values and their viewpoints in the world. And they have this sense that food, because of all of these things, the food is going to nourish you in a different kind of way than, some other kind of like mass produced bars that are made with kind of meh ingredients it’s a different experience I believe. And that’s what I want people to feel. Like I want people to have this feeling when they’re eating one of our Made With Local real food bars or that it is experience that connects them to their community.”

Jennifer Myers Chua: Want to take action now? Here are some tips from this episode.

1. Number one.  Shopping for snacks. You want to avoid things like unpronounceable ingredients and Palm oil. Palm oil is terrible. It’s not healthy for you or the planet. And the industry has contributed to things like the extinction of a number of species.  Mass deforestation. And it’s found in a lot of snack bars. So look out for that.
2. If you’re looking to build a social enterprise business, or a values driven company. Scaling up, isn’t selling out. It’s increasing the size of your impact. So maybe give Costco a chance.
3. If you want to make sure you’re supporting a company that really is creating impact. Look for B Corp certification it’s rigorous and B Corp’s have a legal requirement to the planet and people before profit.  

If you joined us through the first 10 episodes of Cost of Goods Sold. I just like to thank you so much for listening. And helping to amplify the voices of these brands that are really truly making a difference. And if you have the opportunity to share one of these episodes with a friend or a family member of yours that you think could really learn something from this, we would be forever grateful. And I know the brand owners would be. As well. You can access all episodes of the Cost Of Goods Sold podcast on apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Also you can visit thecostofgoodssold.com, where we have show notes and transcripts from each episode. And all of the links and social media profiles of all of the brands featured so if you want to connect with them you can find the links on our website.

 

In today’s episode, we chat with Emma Rohmann from Green at Home. We learn how Emma went from environmental engineering to studying our toxic load from the products we use in our everyday lives, we learn why ultimately, regulations don’t work as they should and the onus is on us as consumers to protect ourselves, what you should be mindful of when buying products for your home OR your business, and what steps we can take immediately to influence manufacturers to reduce toxic chemicals and create a healthier future for all.

If you want to Learn more about Emma, or learn more about how to reduce toxins in your home & body visit https://greenathome.ca. Interested in these topics? Emma’s podcast, the Missing Pillar of Health explores the impact our environment has on our health, our happiness, wealth, families, communities, and the planet. And it’s available everywhere you get your podcasts. You can follow along with Emma on her mission on Facebook or Instagram.

Links from this episode

• Green Product Forum Facebook Group
• The Missing Pillar of Health Podcast
• Tests find toxic toys in stores across GTA
• 6 years after Rana Plaza collapse, many fashion giants still unwilling to make changes, says industry expert
• More than 18 million Mattel toys on recall globally
• Not Enough To Be Harmful” And Other Misconceptions About Environmental Toxins

Episode Transcript

Jennifer Chua: Hello, everyone. And welcome. You’re listening to Cost of Goods Sold with Jennifer Myers Chua episode 09.

In today’s episode, we chat with Emma Rohmann from Green at Home.  We learn how Emma went from environmental engineering to studying our toxic load from the products we use in our everyday lives,  we learn why ultimately regulations don’t work as they should. And that the onus is on us as consumers to protect ourselves,  what you should be mindful of when buying products for your home or your business.  And what steps we can take immediately to influence manufacturers to reduce toxic chemicals and create a healthier future for all.

Looking back at the last year, chances are that you’ll remember things like the hoarding of antibacterial wipes and hand sanitizer.  And likely spending more time at home.  I’ve been looking back at all of the things that have changed in my life, and what’s changed in the world around us.  And what the impact of all of this is.  Mostly I’m feeling hopeful.  Yes, Amazon sales are through the roof. Plastic use is up dramatically and counterfeits and unsafe goods are headed into more homes because of the increase of online shopping.  But more and more consumers, and our customers for sure, are asking the important questions.  Where is something made? What is it made of? And how can we prove as a seller that it’s safe? And personally, I’ve been leaning more and more on Emma for advice.

Emma first became interested in chemicals in university. She’s quick to point out the chemicals are everywhere and that they’re not all harmful, but while learning to design waste and drinking water treatment plants, she learned what chemicals were in our water and how difficult it is to remove them.  She immediately stopped using things like conventional cleaners and began to research the source of the contaminants in our water systems. Over the years, Emma developed a career as an environmental engineer in the green building world. She became more aware of the importance of our decisions beyond cleaners and personal care products and how we are not being properly educated and not told about all of the impacts that these products have  on our health and the world around us.

In order to be conscious consumers and make more informed choices,  we need access to balanced, researched information that isn’t just one sided. And so Emma’s business Green at Home was born to help untangle all of the conflicting information and find that practical middle ground that she found was lacking.  Emma now works with primarily parents and those who are expecting, helping them to lower their toxic load by addressing toxic chemicals in our homes and daily lives.

Toxins are everywhere. Yes. And our systems are able to filter out some of them. But with the dramatic rise in cancers and allergies, hormone imbalances, chronic disease, obesity, and other environmental illnesses,  it’s worth learning a little bit more about how we can make more mindful purchasing choices because the environment has a huge impact on us and our health.

Emma Rohmann: essentially environmental health or environmental medicine looks at the impact external factors have on our health. When it comes to consumer goods, we can think of them impacting our space. Everything that we are putting on our skin  has the potential to be absorbed. What we put in our air we breathe in and what’s in our food and our drink we ingest. So There’s three pathways and a lot of the kind of conversation around toxics got pushed to the side because most conventional practitioners would say, oh, well, the dose makes the poison. We don’t . Need to be concerned because there’s such small amounts and our bodies have detoxification systems. They’re not going to cause a health impact. Where environmental health comes into play, environmental medicine. we’re not just looking at isolated exposures to things. There are toxins, literally everywhere. At this point. It’s not about going toxin-free, we can’t, but it’s lowering the exposure as much as possible and supporting our body systems so that they can better handle what they can’t control. So when we think of the way that our environment affects our health, it is varied. And that’s what makes it such a challenging field of study because every body handles things differently, but essentially you can consider your body’s systems like a barrel. It’s a contained volume. And when we are exposed to certain toxins or stressors, this adds to our toxic load.  If your body systems cannot process these toxins and stressors fast enough at the rate that they’re coming in, they end up overflowing into our bloodstream into our bodies. Some of them get reabsorbed into our fat and it can cause cellular damage. It can cause hormone, disruption hormone disruption is one of the main things that I talk about because it is so widespread. We know that some toxins are contributing to cancer, asthma, and allergies. It’s vast.But that’s the crux of how the environment affects us.

Jennifer Chua: In the past couple of years with my own business, I’ve been discovering how many known carcinogens are in the products we buy. Most of those purchased online that haven’t passed safety testing. Even if the manufacturer claims they have. And I’ve been having this conversation with like-minded people like Emma. Who is responsible? Is the onus on us as a consumer? Is it on the seller or the manufacturer? And what is the government doing to protect us?  And why, when I tell people that the children’s products that they’ve bought at the dollar store on Amazon might contain lead in dangerous amounts, why is everyone not more aware?

In my work, legally importing goods, we have a number of checks and balances to make sure a product is safe to sell.  This includes third party safety testing.  And getting insight and information on certifications and on factories. It also includes having huge insurance policies in place in case anything ever is to happen.  But anyone with an e-commerce store can buy a case of goods from a factory overseas without any of this in place. And it’s a huge, huge risk. For themselves, for the factory workers, the planet, and ultimately their customers and families.  Safety testing, safer materials its all expensive. So as something seems too good to be true. It probably is. And regulations, they help, but they’re not enough on their own.

Emma Rohmann: A lot of people will say the government regulates everything in North America. We’ve got stringent requirements that products need to meet to be put on store shelves. And so it’s fine. The other side is some people saying nothing’s regulated, everything’s harmful. And so it’s actually somewhere in the middle.

In north America, we do have. Certain regulations that look at known harmful ingredients. A lot of the times it say, especially in personal care products, it’s a dosing requirement. So it’ll look at okay, you’re allowed to have X ingredient up to a certain percent of the product, because this has been shown to be the threshold where it is safe. In other instances, there are flat- out bans but the problem with both of these is that it’s not like we have thousands of enforcement officers who are testing every product ever made to make sure that it’s within the regulated limits. And so even though we do have some regulations, they often don’t go far enough when looking at again, back to the environmental health picture and understanding the impact that cumulative exposures have on our bodies.

Often the regulations are looking at substances in isolation, so it doesn’t . Necessarily take into account our full, toxic load. And. They are relying on manufacturers to demonstrate that they’re meeting and not obviously violating regulations. There are checks, sometimes products will be spot checked.In North America, we operate in what’s called a post regulatory or post-market regulatory system. And so often when ingredients or products end up being deemed to be harmful, it’s because either consumers or environmental or health advocacy groups have raised the alarm bell, and this happens years, sometimes decades after a product has been on store shelves.

Jennifer Chua: As a distributor.  It is part of our duty really, part of our responsibility to view these third-party safety testing reports. And in our case, hold our manufacturing partners accountable for safety. But I know a lot of people don’t necessarily do that, they just import on their own or they import without seeing these reports or paying for these reports, if they’re importing direct from a factory. And when I’ve spoken to primarily parents about the dangers of these unregulated products, I do hear those comments. People saying, well, if it’s on the shelf in this big box store, it has to be safe. And it concerns me that these regulations in north America are allowing toxic goods to get onto our shelves, but I understand how difficult that is.

What are we missing as consumers, or as people looking to stock our shelves, which potential toxins should we be looking for that we’re not thinking about?

Emma Rohmann: That list is long because it depends on the product itself.  I think the most important thing to recognize is that, lead, BPA phthalates, parabens. These got a lot of public attention. So most of us have at least a general awareness that these things may not be so great. And so when you see packaging that says, BPA free,  free PFOA is another  big one PFOA free. You’re like, great. It doesn’t have this big chemical of concern that I’m aware of. It must be fine. And so the biggest thing that I think we are missing is that industry is very good , the chemical industry in particular is very good at monitoring, which chemicals are likely to be banned or restricted. And when that happens, they have a replacement ready to go. And what we’re finding is that these some people call them regrettable, substitutions have the same, or sometimes worse safety profile than the chemical that they’re replacing. So instead of looking for BPA free you want to be looking forBisphenol free because BPA has been replaced with other bisphenols that’s what the B stands for, but you can put BPA free on the label, but you don’t know what it’s being replaced with. And so as soon as we see those something free, I think it’s our responsibility, whether you are sourcing a product or component, or whether you are buying one is to ask what is being used instead, because that regrettable substitution process has us in this regulatory whack-a-mole with chemicals constantly being introduced to market before they’ve been fully tested. So I would say that is what. Is most concerning right now.

When I speak about conscious consumerism, this is one of the things that we talk about most often, which is feel free to reach out to the manufacturer of a product to get some more information. And if they don’t have that information for you, then that’s okay. Likely very likely a red flag that you should be purchasing something else. Earlier, you mentioned BPA free is on a lot of packaging. And we’ve noticed this too with like counterfeits and goods that are just not so thoughtfully created is that a lot of the time, this verbiage will just be copied as well and placed on the packaging, regardless of what the product contains. Why is it important that we’re mindful about where we shop as well?

When BPA became banned from baby bottles and phthalates became restricted from baby products. Testing was done to see if this had impacted how products were being made. And it was shown that products with that BPA free label and phthalate free labels still contained these chemicals. And so I think it is really important to understand who is selling the products that we are buying and what their track record is. And so a lot of the tests that have been done, showing that products have excess levels of toxins, like lead in particular are coming from overseas. Often they’re made in China where the regulations are not as strict and they are making products as cheaply as possible because that’s what the manufacturer is wanting to do.

A lot of companies are just, they want to maximize profits at all costs. And I think we need to change the way that we are defining business. And look, I get I’m a business owner too. I get it that we need to reduce expenses. So that we can make money doing the things that we’re doing. However, when looking at the other costs, if you’re buying from a manufacturer who is using unregulated labor, who is operating in a country that has notoriously poor environmental and labor standards, and you are not checking  that factory is operating within the standards that maybe would exist in North America, if you’re going to take labor elsewhere. It’s like the wild, wild west, and we’ve seen it. We’ve seen what happens with the factory in Bangladesh, the clothing factory, and that had a big uproar for what I would consider a way to short period of time, because everyone who was bent out of shape about that sort of thing happening are still buying clothes from companies who are using offshore markets without checking their practices. And so I think both on the business side and the consumer side, we need to be asking these questions. And if you’re using offshore labor and factories to make your products, there are a lot of brands that are doing this, but they have full oversight into the labor being used, the materials, they do their own testing. It’s possible. I like to support locally made products as much as possible. I get that it’s not possible for all brands to do it, but there are ways to work in other countries, but still adopt better standards. But if you don’t ask, then I think, unfortunately we’re at the point where we need to assume that companies are operating at the lowest common denominator.

Jennifer Chua: the Rana factory collapse is a very good example of this really, because when I do mention that to just friends or whatnot? A lot of people don’t know that happened.  And a lot of people don’t know that the brands that were paying these employees to work in this factory are paying these contractors to work in this factory in these deplorable conditions, really,  are brands that all of us have in our homes, especially in Canada, like some of the very large Canadian brands, we’re part of the factory collapse. And that just makes me think, If we’re concerned about removing this product from our home, because potentially it’s toxic just with toxic load in small amounts. What about the people that are manufacturing? What are the people in there who are actually stirring these chemicals all day long?  What kind of impact does that have on their health overseas?

Emma Rohmann: That is one of my biggest pet peeves when people say, oh, come on, don’t worry about it. It’s just a small amount, like frying pants, for example. Not an overseas example, but yes, the impact of using a Teflon frying pan is likely minimal as a user in the kitchen. There will be some migration, but the impact to you compared to the impact of the communities in the United States who have been poisoned by the manufacturing facilities, making this. The impact can’t even be compared because people are literally dying from the manufacturing plants that are dumping the hazardous waste. And people who have been working in the facilities have Cancer birth defects for pregnant women. And so these, those impacts are often not considered in the argument that it’s safe to the end user, same with overseas, clothing, a lot of these products that are using chemicals in their raw form. We don’t take into account that somebody somewhere is exposed to incredibly high amounts and it’s the workers. And it’s also the communities surrounding these factories, which are often more marginalized communities to start with. And so sure us sitting in our homes in Canada may have very little risk for the clothing that we’re wearing, the dyes that are used in clothing may not harm us in any meaningful way, but the waterways in India are polluted beyond recognition because clothing dyes or some of the most toxic chemicals and are just being released into the environment. It’s opened up a lot of doors to be in this global economy, but it’s also opened up a lot of problems. If we are going to be taking advantage of having access to global markets, then we also need to be taking responsibility to protect the people that we are relying on to be giving us our goods.

Jennifer Chua: in a recent episode of your podcast, which I’m a huge fan of, by the way. You spoke about a Toronto newspaper, which had purchased, and in this case, it was toys from 18 random retailers who had sourced goods from China. Can you give us some insight into what they found and what you find surprising about that information?

Emma Rohmann: They purchased toys and had them tested for lead. Which is probably the most regulated chemical on the market because we know the damaging, the effect that it can have, particularly on children. It’s a neurotoxin, it’s a hormone disruptor and there is no known safe level of lead for children. And they found that the majority of the products that they tested, tested for lead and often substantially higher than the legal limit. I think it just brings to light the reminder that like lead is something that is not up for debate. There are still hormone disrupting chemicals and other things that have a lot of debate around them as to how harmful they are. I don’t see much debate around lead being toxic. And yet it’s found in dozens of products still when it is regulated and should not be there. This is where I think it can get confusing and overwhelming because,  if this is something that’s regulated, we need to be able to put some level of trust in the marketplace and our regulations. Right. Otherwise we will drive ourselves crazy. And so it goes back to again, Understanding who is making the product and what kinds of checks and balances that they have in place.  Most of the products are the very low cost kind of dollar store trinkets. These are the ones that have repeatedly been found to contain higher levels of things like lead and cadmium, which is another heavy metal.

There was one major recall of products by an incredibly large toy company. That was also surprising. But the difference with them is that they caught it. And so they recalled, I think it was millions of toys, but something like 85% of them hadn’t yet made it onto store shelves. And so I think that’s a good thing. They’ve got the ability to do that. And they’re checking a lot of these dollar store type markets, Amazon type markets. They’re not doing this. And so that’s why they ended up being on store shelves and why our kids end up being exposed. Unfortunately.

Jennifer Chua: Why are they manufacturers using lead light? Do they not have an alternative? If we all know collectively  that lead is so damaging.

Emma Rohmann: it’s cheap.  It’s often found in paints. In one article I was reading, they interviewed some workers at a factory in China, and . They do have alternatives. They make that alternative available. But if the company is saying. We don’t want to spend more than X amount. And the only way to do that is to use lead then that’s what they will make. And they’ll kind of turn a blind eye to the regulations. And so at the end of the day, it comes down to money.

Jennifer Chua: So if I’m sitting here in Canada and I’ve decided that I want to set up an online store, or I want to sell something on Amazon, or I want to sell something on Facebook marketplace or at a pop-up. And I’ve gone to legitimate importers, distribution companies and, or manufacturing partners of . People whose brands I admire. And then I’ve gone on to Alibaba or AliExpress. And I see that I can buy a case of something that looks essentially the same for much, much cheaper. And I get a much bigger margin. I mean, these margins are substantial when compared to buying a product from a legitimate manufacturer. Often times these e-commerce shops are ordering goods without seeing the products without visiting the factory, running safety tests on their own, based on your research?What do you think they’re actually buying.

Emma Rohmann: I’ve learned a lot about counterfeiting from you. And the reality is you don’t know what you’re getting. It could be perfectly fine. Chances are, if the price is too good to be true, there’s a reason. And. This is where I think you have to be very mindful before just popping up links. It is so easy to set up an online shop now and have, even if it’s just affiliate links through Amazon or other third party platforms. And it’s why the shop page on my website, I actually went to great lengths to use. Non-Amazon links. It would have been way easier and I probably would be making more money if I had just done that, but it, it goes against my mission. And so I think you need to really think carefully about what the mark is that you want to make in the world. And before selling products, I think you need to do your due diligence and ask the questions. And don’t just assume that because something is cheap it’s because somebody else got a good deal. I don’t think that you can assume that something is cheap without somebody else paying the cost.

Jennifer Chua: But what if a product is labeled FDA approved, this is something I hear all the time, but it says FDA approved.  As a consumer or as someone who’s talking my shelves, what should I look for in terms of labeling?

Emma Rohmann: FDA approved. I mean, it’s, if it’s actually FDA approved and not a counterfeit, that’s just slapping the stamp on the label. It’s. Fine. It usually means that the product is tested more for physical safety than toxic ingredients. They do have some requirements like lead and whatnot, but I would say  that is a bare minimum. And I don’t even know if you can legally sell something that is not FDA approved if it is within that FDA jurisdiction. So it’s kind of an obvious, no-brainer and so whatever the product is, if it is a consumable, like a personal care product, if it is a baby toy or a teether, I think we need to have a better collective understanding of the types of ingredients that are used to make these things.

And so if it’s something like, let’s say a teething toy. Often they’re made with plastics that are soft and flexible. And so we know that plasticizers and phthalates can be a risk. And so it’s asking, okay, what is being used to give this product? The properties that it has and are these ingredients potentially harmful. And that’s a big ask. It’s a lot for people to  try to take on. And it’s why I spend so much of my time in my programs, educating how to ask these questions and what to do with the information as well as providing the solutions, because we need to be more educated, aware, and conscious both as consumers like from the family side, as well as consumers on a business side, getting materials for our products, because there are thousands of chemicals on the market right now. And as we’ve talked about, they aren’t necessarily safe. And so unfortunately until we get to a place where regulations and industry catch up, It’s on the consumer way more than it should be. But if we don’t start asking the questions, I don’t think any of the other mechanisms are going to change. And so I really do think that it’s up to us to start driving this conversation so that companies know that it’s important.

Jennifer Chua: As consumers, we have the opportunity to buy anything in one click online, which is convenient. and oftentimes these massive online marketplaces or these dollar stores have goods that are much more affordable. Like there a lot more inexpensive, but what’s the cost?

Emma Rohmann: I think we have to look at this from. The cost to ourselves, as well as the cost to the environment and the people who are making them.  Look at the cost to ourselves. A lot of these cheap products are not made to last. They are cheap because well,  they use cheap materials, but also they want you to keep buying more of them. That’s the business model. It’s volume, right? Low cost, high volume. That’s the model. And so if you think about buying something for a really low price, how long is it going to last? How many are you going to have to buy over how long in order for it to do whatever you want it to do? Andthink about that and say, okay, is this cost really worth it over the long-term. The other issue is health both. And I don’t think we put enough of a dollar value on our health that we should, I think a lot of us are forced to invest in our health when something bad happens. But the idea of investing in prevention or risk reduction is a tough concept to grasp for a lot of us because we don’t need it right now. Right. We’re fine. And so I think it’s just starting to think about our health differently and understanding, look, not everything that you buy is going to be a hundred percent non-toxic that is okay. But if you’re evaluating something that your baby is going to be sucking on day in and day out, this is something that really matters, especially for children because they’re developing. They’re growing, their systems are maturing in ways that we know chemical introduction at certain windows in a child’s development can have lifelong impact, particularly with hormone disruptors. And so this is something that we need to know and we need to be considering because our children’s health is not getting better.

Looking at the big picture and understanding that a little bit more of a cost for a product, like let’s say a teether or a mattress for a baby that you’re going to be using for a long time, knowing that it’s not going to be adding to your child’s risk of developing issues down the line is something that we need to be factoring into our decision-making. And then thinking about who is making these products and who is exposing themselves to working conditions that are potentially unsafe to chemicals that are potentially, or like lead obviously harmful. And if the company has a track record of poor enforcement or dumping chemicalsif we are buying products from those companies, then we are at fault as well. We can’t just keep putting the blame on companies and absolving ourselves of any responsibility because we’re the one supporting them. And I think we need to really be looking at that big picture.

Jennifer Chua: at Hip Mommies. We vet very carefully for that. For cost of use. It is something that we’re mindful of. And we’ve had this criticism because we sell some silicone baby plates, for example, that are much more expensivethan buying a plastic plate from a dollar store.  But if you use this three meals a day and you know, it’s safe and there’s a lot of contaminant issues in silicone, for example, that’s a really big one. You can get some unsafe silicone,  then you’re eating off it. So like you mentioned before, it makes me really uncomfortable. So health and safety are definitely one thing to be mindful of, but are there any other environmental impacts associated with these toxic goods on top of the impact, our health or the health of our families?

Emma Rohmann: yes. And I think it depends on the chemical. So in some instances there are chemicals used that we now know do not degrade. Once they hit the environment, these are called forever chemicals and they are found in flame retardants. They are found in stain repellents. They are found in waterproofing materials and they have been found in polar bears in the far reaches of the globe where they should not really be exposed to any human made ingredients. And so the problem with these is they’re forever chemicals because they. They do their job very well. Like Teflon, it’s the slippery substance on earth. It is effective at what it does, but when it enters the environment, it doesn’t go away. And it is hormone disrupting carcinogenic, and it is building up because as we use and dispose of products, It’s not like our trash just disappears. It ends up somewhere. And yes, when it goes to a landfill, there are some systems in place to contain what it goes in that landfill.

But there is still leachate, which is the stuff that ends up settling out at the bottom of the giant garbage pile is things start to degrade. That needs to be disposed of there’s always a waste product. And with things like forever chemicals, we’re finding them all over the place. When we look at ocean pollution, microplastics are now known to be a huge problem and we’re now facing the fact that we’re looking at having more plastic in our ocean than fish. And the wildlife eat it. We eat the fish and the chain just continues. The harm on the environment is sometimes one of the things that make. So  clue in that maybe there’s going to be a health impact for us as well.

But I think when we are making decisions, we easily forget that there’s also the environmental impact of things. And my career started as being a burgeoning environmentalist. I wasn’t thinking about things from a health perspective.  I came at this from a backwards way from a lot of people, but the environment isn’t some other extra thing that we can use as a dumping ground. Like the environment is literally our home. If you think of the work that we’re doing too, or the work that I’m doing to help reduce toxins within our actual houses, the same goes for our planet. We rely on a healthy environment for our food, our air, our water, and when we constantly use it as a dumping ground, our soils, our water quality, our air can’t recover. And so being mindful of the manufacturing processes that we’re supporting, the chemicals that we’re introducing without fully looking at their impact. I am worried for our kids to be honest. I mean, it’s kind of a downer of an answer, but the environment has a carrying capacity too, and we are not respecting that.

Jennifer Chua: I was doing some research for a previous episode, and they were talking about these forever chemicals, which are often found in packaging , and they did a random blood testing of. Like a random selection of a population and they found five or more of these chemicals in 70% of our bloodstream. And they also found these chemicals. And I think it was in California, in the waterway.  In their drinking water source. So I know that those are a really big problem and this all sounds very overwhelming. And I know that. You take the position that this should not be overwhelming. Anyone that’s made it this far into the episode, that’s feeling a little bit scared right now. Do you have any words of hope  or words of how they could approach this more mindfully without that overwhelm?

Emma Rohmann: There’s a fine line between. Educating, and  I’m not about fear-mongering at all, but I think we need to understand how important this issue is. Right. And I’m kind of past the point of sugarcoating it or making it seem like, oh, everything’s fine. But it would be really nice if we, because we’ve gone too far for that to be the case. And so I do hope that you are hearing this with a sense of curiosity and open mindedness. Because I think without being aware, we can’t drive change. And one of the quotes that I use in all of my web classes and seminars and presentations is from Dr. Maya Angelou, the quote, where . She says do the best you can until you know, better. And when you know, better do better and we can’t do better if we don’t learn. I hope that you’re hearing this with a sense of, okay, this is bad, but what can we do? I want to make a difference. Knowing that we as individuals have the power to create positive change is super empowering. And I think recognizing that we can be part of the solution faster than government regulations will change is the first step. And step number two is recognizing that every dollar you spend is a vote and if you want to create a better world for your family, for your kids. You’re not going to be voting every single dollar on something that is 100% non-toxic you’re not going to be doing all of this research into every single manufacturer. However, the more that you can, the more that you can ask companies, the questions, hopefully I’ve given you some information in this episode to arm you with some of the things to think about. Even if you can’t necessarily afford something that is kind of the ultimate goal. The fact that you’re asking the questions makes a difference.

I started my career as a co-op student phoning manufacturers and asking them for the MSDS and the VOC content of the materials that were going into the buildings that the projects that I was working on and. This was back in 2004, I think. And the people on the other end of the phone would respond. Like I was asking them the most obscure question. They had no idea what I was talking about. Just three, four or five years later, every major company that supplies products for building projects posted on their website. Or you call them up and ask for it and it’s like, yep, no problem. Here it is. And it’s in your inbox three seconds later. So having these conversations works, I have seen it time and time again. I think that is huge. You may not know all of the questions to ask. You might not know how to take in their answers, but the more that we can have this conversation, the more that we will drive change.

Taking a step back and looking at our consuming habits over all. We’re buying too much. And so if you want to just do one thing, it’s being more conscious and aware of what you’re buying and starting with the mindset that less is more. And then it won’t be such a hurdle to maybe invest in a few of the bigger ticket items that you might have your eye on. That’s a gross simplification. There are a lot of people with different economic situations. I totally get that, but I think we just need to start thinking about our kind of budget process and our lifestyle on the whole differently.

Jennifer Chua: Some of our partners for example. Small, independent retailers that we work with. They are often putting these questions to us and having us ask the manufacturer, or often being very mindful of what they’re selling or what they’re stocking their shelves with for their consumers. Like They’re being really great about it. Oftentimes these stores are now also accepting used goods and then reselling them. So repurposing. So if money is an issue,  a lot of these things you can find used too. Particularly in children’s products, if they have a shorter lifespan, in terms of use in your home, you can find these reused.

So Ultimately for our safety of our homes and our environments and our health who is really responsible here, is it on the consumer? Is it on the importer? Is it on the store that’s selling it to you? The manufacturer, the government? Like ultimately, should be responsible for you and your family’s health?

Emma Rohmann: I think we are responsible for our family’s health. That onus is on us. I think the onus on making goods that don’t harm our health should be 100% on the manufacturer. That reality is far from being realized. We all play a role and I think the more that we start shifting blame to other people, the more that we prolong this process of constantly playing catch up and arguing over whose responsibility it is. Companies are people. We often forget this companies aren’t this like machine, some of them act like it, but we’re all people. And I think the more that we can look at how the decisions we are making are impacting the bigger picture, the better off we will all be. And I really hope that companies, especially the big ones, step up, because if they were to change the way that they were operating tomorrow, the world would be a very different place.

This is the thing with a lot of certifications. Like you’d never know which ones are legit or which one is not. And B Corp is stringent. And that’s the other thing too, that stuff is expensive. And so getting that demonstration, it  takes some of the requirement off of the consumer too. Double-check and look into things because you know that there’s a third party who has already done that. And so that is something that you’re paying for as well, right? Like you’re going to pay something anyways, whether it’s money or time, you just have to trade off which one you’re willing to do. And sometimes you’re more able or willing to throw one thing at a problem than another, but don’t forget that. If you’re going to be spending less money, you’re likely going to be spending more time on something down the road. And B Corp or better made products are more expensive, usually for a very good reason. And it’s probably going to be saving you headache.

Jennifer Chua: I know earlier you said that you’re a little worried as a mother,  but seeing the response of your podcast and you have a Facebook group,this messaging is resonating with a lot of people. So are you hopeful for the future?

Emma Rohmann: I definitely am. And I think kids are getting it. Like we’ve seen kids striking for the climate. We’ve seen kids suing the government over environmental policies. So yeah. I am hopeful. I, we have some damage to undo and so we can’t just leave it up to our kids. So I am incredibly hopeful for the bright children that we are seeing and are going to be leaders in companies and governments. I think they are going to do amazing things in the world. I think our generation and our parents’ generation who has unfortunately been responsible for a lot of what we’re dealing with now. There’s still time for us to act and the conversations that I’m seeing in my communities give me so much hope and honestly keep me going, because I can see how much people care and how much people want to change. And I’ve seen it. I’ve seen people messaged me saying, Hey, I messaged this company and this is what they said, and this is what I said back. And it’s amazing. It’s how change is going to happen.  There’s the Margaret Mead quote, a small group of thoughtful people can change the world indeed is the only thing that ever has. And I see it every day. And so we can change the trajectory that we are on. We just need more people to be joining the conversation.

Jennifer Chua: If you want to learn more about Emma or learn more about how to reduce toxins in your home and body, visit greenathome.ca Interested in these topics? Emma’s podcast,The Missing Pillar of Health explores the impact our environment has on our health, our happiness, wealth, family, communities, and the planet.And it’s available everywhere you get your podcasts.  You can follow along with Emma on her mission on Facebook at greenathome or Instagram @emma_greenathome.